Bill Cassidy Asks College President How To Manage Tension Between ‘Moral Clarity’ And Freedom Of Thought

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During a Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee hearing prior to the Congressional recess, Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA) questioned Dr. Michael Lindsay, President of Taylor University.

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00:00My turn.

00:03Dr. Brown, you've written about the challenges facing the Parent PLUS program and pointed

00:10out that HBCU students and parents rely on Parent PLUS, but sometimes it saddles the

00:16family with debt they cannot pay.

00:18And so that which is extended in compassion becomes a shackle keeping them from growth.

00:23Can you comment on that, please?

00:25And those are my words, not yours, but I feel just as passionately as you.

00:28Dr. Yes, Senator Cassidy, I agree that the Parent PLUS loans and loans in general create

00:35a financial burden on students that is not sustainable.

00:40Specifically, if a family has an estimated family contribution of zero and then you extend

00:45a Parent PLUS loan to that family, what's the likelihood that that family will, with

00:49any reason, be able to pay it?

00:52But it's a far more complex question than that because if you remove those loans without

00:56an alternative, history tells us that that stops access.

01:00And so I think if we go back to the founding of the whole Title IV program, this was supposed

01:05to be solved within the Pell Grant part of the program and not within the loan part.

01:10The loans create a debt trap.

01:11It creates and takes away the social and economic mobility that is intended of education.

01:17So I wish we did not need the loans at all.

01:20But until we do something to reform the level of Pell Grant, it ends up being the difference

01:25in access.

01:26And I will offer one more example.

01:29In 2011, when there were credit changes to the Parent PLUS Loan system, we saw immediately

01:36a decline of over three, around three to four percent of students who attended HBCUs while

01:43enrollment was going up at other schools.

01:45And so, in a sense, we made education available for the elite, and we did not make education

01:51available for the masses.

01:52But the Parent PLUS program, again, as we have ... I'm looking at some statistics.

01:59I understand that about a 34 percent borrow more than the $50,000 cap being proposed.

02:06I've heard stories of people borrowing from multiple kids, and they end up just incredible debt.

02:12They're drowning in debt from this.

02:15So I think what you're saying is that there needs to be another way to finance it?

02:18I'm saying it's the wrong tool for social and economic mobility.

02:22The loan is the wrong tool.

02:24But it is the only tool, unless there's an alternative to make sure you ensure access.

02:29So it's definitely the wrong tool for ... You don't give a person who can't make a payment

02:33a loan.

02:35You instead would do a different tool.

02:38And again, I believe that the intent of the original Higher Education Act was to fix this

02:42within the Pell Grant program.

02:44Got you.

02:45Dr. Lindsey, there's been a lot of conversation about the lack of moral clarity on college

02:49campuses.

02:51And about tolerance of incivility that then becomes violent.

02:56And about counseling people with different views.

02:59Now you're a Christian organization, and I imagine there would be very noxious views.

03:04And so there's a tension there, the counseling versus the moral clarity.

03:10In your experience, because obviously your enrollment is growing, you're doing very well.

03:14How do you manage that tension between some viewpoint which might be noxious to your theology,

03:22but at the same time having moral clarity?

03:25I think fundamentally we believe that all truth is God's truth, so we're not afraid to

03:29engage on difficult topics or difficult issues.

03:32I was on the faculty of a Research One university for a number of years, and I would say at Taylor,

03:38I feel like we have more freedom to engage on difficult or contentious topics than I ever

03:42faced on that Research One campus.

03:45I think part of what happens is that when you're part of a community that has a shared set of

03:49moral commitments, which we do, it sort of creates a degree of freedom within a framework

03:54of faith.

03:55And we have found that our students really thrive with the opportunity.

03:58We want our students to be really well equipped to engage all of the pressing issues.

04:02And they're not simple answers.

04:03We know that.

04:04So you've got to be able to engage those variety of concerns in a thoughtful and deliberative

04:08way.

04:09So if somebody came advocating for polygamy, they could speak, but it would be in the context

04:13of an audience which had a well-grounded sense of moral clarity.

04:19We have students who are incredibly thoughtful about their theological commitments and how

04:24it informs their academic pursuits.

04:26We welcome any speaker to come to our campus.

04:28I think they'll find that our students are engaging, prepared, and bring a degree of clarity

04:34to the pressing moral issues we see in our day.

04:36Dr. Gillian, Dr. Brown just spoke about, okay, we know that these Parent PLUS programs really

04:43end up burdening people with tremendous debt.

04:46And you made the statement that sometimes increased revenue is spent, but there is diminishing return

04:52in terms of the benefit, however you define the benefit.

04:56But he said, if you cut the Parent PLUS, then how do you replace it?

05:00There is a tension there.

05:02At least from your perspective, how is that tension addressed?

05:06Dr. Gillian, Yeah, absolutely.

05:07So I totally agree that the Parent PLUS is the wrong tool to try and address this problem.

05:13I actually had a paper out that argued we should get rid of Parent PLUS and increase Pell

05:17Grant to make up the gap that parents were contributing to their students' education.

05:25So that's one option, is increase Pell Grant.

05:29Another option is just rely more on the private sector to do that lending, because the main

05:37problem with the Parent PLUS loan right now is that they are not doing credit checks.

05:43And so you're giving parents who can't afford the debt a huge amount of debt, whereas private

05:49lenders wouldn't make those loans, because they're not going to get repaid.

05:52Okay.

05:53You're not disputing that they might need the money, you just think there's a better, more

05:56wise way to finance it.

05:57Correct.

05:58Okay.

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