The big focus of this episode of India First is on the battle between the Congress and the BJP on Operation Sindoor ceasefire, alleged US intervention, and India's foreign policy.
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00:00Good evening, you're watching India First. I'm Gaurav Savant.
00:03With India having successfully bombed 13 Pakistan Air Force bases and radar stations during Operation Sindur,
00:10the focus now shifts to that raging battle within.
00:15The battle between the Congress and the BJP on the ceasefire, the alleged U.S. intervention,
00:22and India's foreign policy with the Congress saying it's collapsed.
00:26The Congress has launched a swarm drone of attacks, of questions on the BJP.
00:31The ruling party is countering with its rapid-fire responses.
00:36And that is our top focus story on this special podcast.
00:47Political fireworks over Operation Sindur.
00:56Rahul takes a swipe at Minister again.
01:05BJP hits back. Reminds of 1991 Pakistan Pact.
01:11India's foreign policy on line of fire.
01:33Criticism valid or anti-national?
01:45Big focus on India First.
01:50Leader of Opposition Rahul Gandhi today fired a fresh salvo at the External Affairs Minister,
01:55asking why was India being hyphenated with Pakistan again?
02:00He also asked why no country backed India in condemning Pakistan?
02:04And who asked Trump to mediate between India and Pakistan?
02:09The sting was in the tail, with the senior Congress leader claiming India's foreign policy had collapsed.
02:15The BJP hit right back, accusing the Congress of speaking Pakistan's language and calling Rahul Gandhi,
02:22Nishani Nishani Pakistan.
02:24The gloves are clearly off, with India having the edge in the war on terror on Pakistan.
02:32It's that internal war that's now escalating.
02:34The political fireworks between Modi government and the Congress party over Operation Sindur continue to explode.
02:44One of the big flashpoints continues to be between External Affairs Minister S. J. Shankar and Rahul Gandhi.
02:52In a fresh escalation, the leader of opposition in Lok Sabha hit out at the minister, posing three questions.
02:58The BGP, which has been accusing Rahul Gandhi of pushing Pakistan's propaganda, responded by reminding the Congress of a 1991 pact with Pakistan.
03:22That states that the two countries will exchange information about any attack or army movement.
03:52You can have to face the force, how can you exercise to do that?
03:57These are all these things.
03:58That doesn't even matter.
03:59The BGP's government should go on the share and do that.
04:03It already says this.
04:04It must be signed on April 1991.
04:06This agreement is peace time.
04:08Peace time has the same law point.
04:09In the peace time, it is wrong with the state's laws.
04:12The government should not be affected by it.
04:15The government should not be affected by it.
04:17The Center in Iran has been told that this is the right thing.
04:19Jai Shankar Ji has informed Pakistan and he has been asking himself to be BJP.
04:24The agreement is the peace time agreement.
04:27Jai Shankar Ji was informed when it was a war-like situation.
04:32Raja Sabha Deputy Chairman Hari Vansh has made another revelation.
04:49The agreement was in the United States.
04:54He came in the United States.
04:56He came together to attend the regional war-like event.
05:02Theďż˝ Chancellor of the United States, the German Judge,
05:07the President, and the U.S.
05:09He has been telling customers that their country will unite to surrender.
05:11No one will set the rise of United States .
05:13I want to know that those who have taken care of Pahalgaam, where are they?
05:25Do they have taken care of them?
05:30Shri Matindra Gandhi had done the treatment of Pakistan.
05:36You have not yet reached the border.
05:42The external affairs minister has clarified on Donald Trump's mediation claim again.
05:47The US was in the United States.
05:50I mean, obviously there were US Secretary of State Rubio and Vice President Vance had called up.
05:59But the cessation of firing and military action was something which was negotiated directly between India and Pakistan.
06:08We made one thing very clear to everybody who spoke to us.
06:11Not just United States, but to everybody.
06:14Saying, look, if the Pakistanis want to stop firing, they need to tell us.
06:20We need to hear it from them.
06:22Their general has to call up our general and say this.
06:26And that is what happened.
06:28There may be a ceasefire between India and Pakistan.
06:31But shots continue to be fired between the centre and the opposition.
06:36Bureau Report, India Today.
06:41And this brings us to our big questions of the day.
06:44Have India and Pakistan been re-hyphenated?
06:47Has no country backed India in calling out Pakistan's state sponsor terror?
06:52And did the United States truly mediate to bring about a ceasefire after the May 10 operations?
06:59Is there merit in the Bharatiya Janta Party saying Rahul Gandhi should be awarded Nishane Pakistan?
07:06Claiming he's peddling Pakistan's agenda.
07:09But the bigger question, can raising questions in a democracy be seen as batting for the enemy?
07:16Joining me on India first is Dr. Shama Mohammed, National Spokesperson of the Congress Party.
07:23Also with me on this broadcast, Guru Prakash Paswan, National Spokesperson of the Bharatiya Janta Party.
07:29And Ambassador Ashok Sajjanhar is a former top diplomat joining us on this show.
07:34Guru Prakash Paswan, if I may, the leader of opposition in Lok Sabha is asking the government some very serious questions, sir,
07:43about in his appreciation, re-hyphenation of India with Pakistan.
07:48Almost every day he's raising these points.
07:51Why is the government not briefing the leader of opposition?
07:54And why is the government not responding in general to the questions being raised by the opposition, sir?
07:59Gaurav, I think we have to understand that there are platforms and there are institutions within our democratic set-ups.
08:09One of that institution is Parliamentary Standing Committee on External Affairs.
08:13So I completely do not understand when the leader of opposition says that a US intervention was indeed done.
08:19When his own party member, a very senior parliamentarian, Mr. Sashi Tharoor, who has served as an Under Secretary General at the United Nation,
08:29who has served as an MOS for External Affairs, he is present in this meeting.
08:33And in this meeting of Parliamentary Standing Committee on External Affairs, which is being led by Sashi Tharoor,
08:38this committee has been briefed by Vikram Misri, who is the Foreign Secretary.
08:42And let me read a line for you from this meeting.
08:44This line said that the United States was neither involved nor informed about the cessation of firing between the two countries.
08:52So I think this question is a done and dusted question.
08:55But on the contrary, Gaurav, we must ask the relevant question.
08:58The tweet which was done by Nishikan Dubeh today, it asked some very important question.
09:03Sir, I'll come to that in just a moment.
09:10I'll come to what Nishikan Dubeh said in just a moment.
09:13Let's stay on the current issue for a moment.
09:15Have India and Pakistan been re-hyphenated?
09:18Did the United States intervene?
09:20Dr. Shama Mohammed, the Ministry of External Affairs actually clarified that Pakistan was informed only after Sindur strikes.
09:30Now, once they had been carried out, the nine terror camps had been targeted.
09:35Only then was Pakistan informed.
09:38Does this not once again contradict the Congress claim that Pakistan was pre-informed?
09:44And Congress continues to push this narrative despite the official clarification.
09:49And before I come to you, let's quickly listen in to the Director General of Military Operations,
09:53who said when Pakistan was informed and then what followed.
09:58Listen in.
10:02...native nature of our adversary.
10:05And even though we did attempt to reach out and communicate our compulsions to strike at the heart of terror,
10:13to my counterpart in the immediate wake of Operation Sindur, the request was brusquely turned out, turned down, I'm sorry, with an intimation that a severe response was inevitable and in the offing.
10:30Dr. Shama Mohammed, respond.
10:35The governments clarified when Pakistan was informed.
10:37We responded, I understood.
10:39Go on.
10:40I understood your question.
10:41Now, one thing first before I go to that, I want to respond to Guru Prakash.
10:46He said that Vikram Mistry has told Dr. Tharoor in a panel, has Vikram Mistry become the Prime Minister of India?
10:53Let the Prime Minister then leave.
10:55He can sit at home.
10:56He doesn't come for all party meet.
10:58He doesn't want to brief.
10:59Like after 2611, Manmohan Singh briefed.
11:02And Advani was sitting in Parliament.
11:05After 2001, Parliament attacked.
11:07Vajpayee, the Prime Minister from your party, briefed.
11:11And everybody, in 1962, Nehru did it.
11:14So let's understand this very clearly.
11:16Every Prime Minister holds a special session and briefs the opposition.
11:20But this particular Prime Minister does not want to brief.
11:23Does not want to take part in all parties.
11:25And he doesn't even want to visit Pahlgahm.
11:27He doesn't want to even visit the victims.
11:29Now, I want to read exactly what Jaishankar's statement is.
11:34At the start of the operation, this is what Jaishankar said.
11:37We had sent a message to Pakistan saying,
11:39we are striking at the terrorist infrastructure and we're not striking at the military.
11:43So the military has the option of standing out and not interfering in this process.
11:47First and foremost, he says, at the start of the operation.
11:50So it's very clear what he has said.
11:51That it is before the operation started.
11:53Number two, how can he dehyphenate the army from the terrorist camp?
11:59Let us understand one very clear thing.
12:02Hafiz Abdul Rauf was standing and leading the prayers when the terrorists were killed by our army.
12:09And standing with them is the army.
12:12So why do you separate the army from the terrorists?
12:15The army, Asen Munir, is a terrorist wearing an army uniform.
12:19So I failed to understand why Jaishankar had to differentiate the army from the terrorists.
12:24Because Asen Munir, according to me, is a terrorist.
12:27See, if the terrorists have been killed and there is Hafiz Abdul Rauf, who has a bounty on his head, standing there leading the prayers, the namag.
12:36And there the army is carrying the coffin.
12:39What does it say?
12:40That they are behind these attacks.
12:42Correct, Gaurav?
12:43My question today to the government is, how dare they dehyphenate it?
12:47You know?
12:48And also, when President Tam speaks, he speaks with Pakistan and India equally.
12:54How can you hyphenate the perpetrator?
12:57That is even what Misri said.
12:58It's not me.
12:59The perpetrator of the attack with the victim.
13:02We are the victim, not the perpetrator.
13:03Fair enough.
13:04You've raised two very pertinent points.
13:05And I completely agree with you, Dr. Muhammad.
13:07There is no distinction between terrorists and Pakistan army.
13:11It's a terrorist state.
13:13Completely agree.
13:14Dr. Paswan, you want to quickly respond before I bring in Ambassador Sajanar?
13:17No, Gaurav, the fact of the matter remains that the Parliamentary Standing Committee on External Affairs is a very relevant, is a very constitutional institution.
13:28Answer that question.
13:29And every political party member is represented.
13:32I did not speak, Gaurav.
13:33I didn't speak to him.
13:34Thank you so much.
13:35Dr. Sashi Tharoor, who is again a senior member of parliament, why did he accept it?
13:40Why did he accept the observations of Vikram Misri?
13:43Is Mr. Shishratiru wrong?
13:44Is Mr. Anand Sharma wrong?
13:46Who is right?
13:47The press conference by Air Marshal Bharti is mistaken.
13:50The press conference by Colonel Sophia Kirgorishi is mistaken.
13:53The press conference by DGMO Rajiv Ghai is mistaken.
13:56Then who is right?
13:57Is Mr. Pawan Khairayan's observation right?
14:00Absolutely not.
14:01We have to understand.
14:02We have to be on the same page.
14:04The press conference of the DGMO, the observations of the Jai Shankar external affairs ministry is on the same page.
14:09And like you said, Gaurav is the outset of your observation.
14:12Fair enough.
14:13Let me bring in Ambassador Sajjanhar.
14:15After the commencement of attack.
14:16I want to quickly, I want to keep moving and I want to bring in Ambassador Sajjanhar.
14:19If the leader of opposition has some queries, the government should respond to him, whether in public or in private.
14:26He's leader of opposition after all.
14:28And is there merit in the Congress saying that Pakistan was informed, it compromised military operations?
14:35One, was it a poor choice of words of the external affairs minister?
14:39And if I may, has India now been re-hyphenated with Pakistan Ambassador Sajjanhar in your diplomatic view?
14:46Yeah, thank you very much Gaurav.
14:48Very pertinent questions.
14:49I think the first question has been asked umpteen number of times and I think been responded to also equal number of times.
14:57I don't think that the choice of words is wrong.
15:00These are exactly or, you know, similar words that were used by DGMO also.
15:04And let me also, you know, submit it for your consideration and the consideration of your viewers.
15:10That if the allegation is that, you know, the terrorists and all were informed, so they would have gone away.
15:17How were 100 and 150 terrorists in all these nine strongholds and hideouts?
15:23How were they killed?
15:24How were you having this, you know, the Masood Azhar crying and saying that, you know, my 10 members of my family, my younger brother who was sort of, you know, responsible for the slitting of throat of Daniel Pearl, et cetera, et cetera.
15:40That all of them have been killed.
15:42It would have been better if I had also died.
15:44You see, there was nothing.
15:45I think there is, you know, people are trying to read something in an expression which it does not convey and was not meant to convey.
15:56Okay.
15:57The second part of your question, I think a very relevant question again, has India been hyphenated, rehyphenated with Pakistan?
16:06My own assessment in my humble opinion is no.
16:10I think there is a difference.
16:13As President George W. Bush had said in 2006, 2007, there's a difference of chalk and cheese between India and Pakistan.
16:23And over the last 10 years, 15 years, I think India has moved so much farther than Pakistan.
16:30You know, as the Director General of the International Monetary Fund says that, you know, in this very gloomy international economic environment, India is the ray of hope.
16:40Today, it is the fourth largest economy.
16:42It is going to grow at, you know, within the bandwidth of 6 to 8 percent, fastest growing major.
16:48There is no question of rehyphenation between India and Pakistan.
16:55India is miles ahead, whether it is in military power, it is in military strength, it is in economic strength, it is in terms of its political heft and traction.
17:06There is no challenge of the world today that can be resolved without the cooperation and participation of India.
17:14So, no question of rehyphenation.
17:16Okay.
17:17Okay.
17:18Dr. Shamaa Mohamad, you heard what the BJP also said.
17:20I mean, they're virtually accusing Rahul Gandhi of speaking Pakistan's language.
17:24They're using words to the effect that he's Nishane Pakistan, which is Pakistan's national, highest national award.
17:31My question to you is, this is perhaps the first time that Pakistan has been hit in Pakistan's Punjab, Mureetke and Bahawalpur have been hit.
17:41And when Pakistan tried to strike Indian military installations, 13 Pakistan Air Force bases and radar stations were targeted from Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir to Sindh.
17:51Such action has never been taken before in the war on terror.
17:56Is that not a strong response?
17:58Does that not convince the opposition that India is now changed in dealing with Pakistan's state sponsor terror, madam?
18:06Who has said that we are not with the government?
18:09Mr. Gandhi has said from the first day itself, we stand with the government, the Congress Party, Kargeji, all stands with the government.
18:15Of course, we are very happy with the way the army has replied back.
18:19The question we ask also is when we were ahead in this, you know, demolishing the terrorist camps, they're more than nine, you've killed many militants.
18:29The question arises is, why a ceasefire?
18:32We should not have gone for a ceasefire.
18:34That's the thing.
18:35And also, I agree with the ambassador that India cannot be hyphenated with Pakistan, but it is not us who decide.
18:42Trump, when he speaks, he says, you know what?
18:45I've threatened them both with trade embargoes if they don't come in for a ceasefire.
18:49So he is hyphenating us with Pakistan.
18:53And let's understand, this is cross-border terrorism.
18:56We have been, we have been through it, you know, many a times, but from cross-border terrorism, it's gone to Kashmir issue.
19:04The question today is, why has it gone to Kashmir issue?
19:07That is the question.
19:08We want, we want, and also we want proper replies.
19:12Now, Mr. Rahul Gandhi writes to the Prime Minister of India, we need an all-party meet, we need a special session of parliament.
19:18The Prime Minister does not even reply.
19:20The Prime Minister does not care about the opposition.
19:23He does not want to breathe.
19:24It is not Vikram Misri who's my Prime Minister.
19:27And again, I want to reiterate with Pasmanji, that we stand fully with the army.
19:34We agree with whatever the army has said, definitely.
19:38But what we are saying is Jai Shankar has said very clearly in his statement that we have warned that we will not hit the military.
19:45Now, for me, the military is the terrorist over there.
19:50I do not know why Jai Shankar, I am not saying the army.
19:53Jai Shankar, the foreign minister, differentiates terrorist camps from the military.
20:00We should have even flattened.
20:01Okay.
20:02Because that is, that is the terrorist.
20:04Now, Mr. Government of the day.
20:05But the Prime Minister of India refuses, refuses and tell me one very important thing, Paswanji.
20:11Where are those four terrorists?
20:13I want to know where they are.
20:15Because let me talk to you.
20:16Since you have directly asked him a question, Guru Prakash Paswan, please respond, sir.
20:20One last point.
20:21One last point.
20:22Gaurav, one last point.
20:23After 26-11, we had the whole world with us.
20:26Here we had the French and the Danish in the beginning.
20:28Then nobody was with us.
20:30We had an IMF loan of $2.3 billion given to Pakistan.
20:34Why did it happen at this point of time?
20:36It should have been stopped.
20:37Eventually, we had Israel and Taiwan.
20:39And then Mr. Jaishagar goes to the Taliban, the Afghanistanis.
20:43For what?
20:44I mean, I failed to understand.
20:45We have lost friends.
20:46Okay.
20:47Guru Prakash Paswan wants to respond.
20:48Ma'am, you've raised several points.
20:49You've raised several points.
20:50You've also raised 26-11.
20:52We'll come back to 26-11 in just a moment.
20:54But Guru Prakash Paswan, please respond, sir.
20:56No, no, Gaurav.
20:57I've patiently heard all the observations raised by Dr. Muhammad.
20:59I failed to understand, Gaurav.
21:00There is absolutely no clarity of thought.
21:01The leader of the Congress, the President of the Congress party, they are speaking about
21:02military intervention.
21:03And at the same time Malikarjun goes on record and says, ye chhitput ladai thi.
21:04It's a small war.
21:05When nine established terror establishments were desecrated.
21:09When eleven air bases were devastated.
21:10When more than hundred of terrorists were neutralized.
21:11When the entire family of Masood Azhar was neutralized.
21:15And the Congress party has the audacity to suggest ye chhitput ladai thi.
21:33I absolutely do not understand.
21:35They spoke about the 2611.
21:38We very well know.
21:39We very well understand and appreciate.
21:41We are all aware of the observations of Brahmachalani.
21:43And let me read from Brahmachalani's article in 2013.
21:46They are speaking of US intervention.
21:48In 2013, our soldiers were beheaded.
21:51There were beheadings happening on the border on a daily basis.
21:55And all these news, it was censored.
21:58Why was it censored?
21:59Because Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was visiting United States of America.
22:02And let me bring this to the kind attention of your viewers.
22:05Speaking of internationalizing the Kashmir issue.
22:08Who internationalized the Kashmir issue with bringing referendum
22:11and the questions of plebiscite after 1947, after 1948?
22:14In the 1970 war, which we are all very proud of.
22:17The 7th Fleet of the US Army, it was at our doorstep.
22:21So let me be very clear and let me be very precise
22:24that we have to understand at the times of war,
22:27the statements by the Congress party on a consistent basis,
22:31right from Mr. Ajay Rai to Mr. Malikarjun Khargay
22:34to Charanji Singh Chandni to Siddhar Ramaiya.
22:36They have constantly suggested and demoralized our forces.
22:40Gaurav, let me reiterate.
22:41The opposition has the legitimate right to raise questions.
22:44But when the operation is in action,
22:50when the operation is in action, they are raising the same question.
22:53When Air Marshal Bharti has repeatedly said that it is not our job.
22:56Our job is not to work.
22:58That's a serious charge.
23:00Dr. Shama Mohammed, quickly respond for 30 seconds.
23:02I want to bring in Ambassador Sajjan Har.
23:04Can I repeat to him?
23:05Can I just reply?
23:06Give him two replies?
23:07Yes.
23:08Can I just reply to him, please?
23:09So he spoke about Brahma Chalini.
23:11Brahma Chalini clearly says in his multiple tweets,
23:15we should not have had the ceasefire.
23:17Very clearly he says that.
23:19And one more thing, after operation, after Kargil,
23:21when Kargil happened, do you remember Operation Parakram
23:25where we lost nearly thousand soldiers standing at the border?
23:29Where was your spine that time?
23:31So don't teach us about spine or don't teach us about all these things.
23:34We know what happened.
23:35We remember Operation Parakram.
23:36We remember Operation Parakram.
23:37Do you remember Sharm el Sheikh?
23:40Do you remember Sharm el Sheikh?
23:42You went to the international order.
23:44You went to the international community with a begging goal.
23:47You went to the international community with a begging goal.
23:50Sharm el Sheikh.
23:51You went to Sharm el Sheikh with a begging goal.
23:54I want to quickly bring in Ambassador Sajjan Har because I have very little time.
23:58I have very little time.
24:00I have very little time.
24:0126-11?
24:0226-11.
24:03Okay, only Ambassador Sajjan Har for a moment.
24:05Because in the end, I want to tell you my response to all of this.
24:09But Ambassador, quickly.
24:11You know, Dr. Sharm el Sheikh spoke of the global support we had post 26-11
24:15versus no support now post, you know, Operation Sindur.
24:21Respond with facts on ground in your appreciation, sir.
24:24Okay, very quickly, Gaurav, if you permit, two comments before that.
24:30One is in terms of the ceasefire.
24:33You know, our DGMO had very categorically stated on the seventh morning in his press conference
24:40that we have achieved all our military objectives.
24:44And so we have told Pakistan that if you do not escalate, we are not going to hit back more.
24:50Our objectives had been achieved on the seventh morning.
24:53So as far as on the 10th afternoon, when Pakistan was down on its knees and it begged us for ceasefire, we agreed.
25:02I don't think there was any purpose because, you know, continuing conflict leads to death and destruction of our own people.
25:10You know, one other question, where are the four terrorists?
25:13Let's look at it.
25:14You know, the armed forces are looking for them.
25:17It's not that politicians have gone out looking for them.
25:19It's the armed forces.
25:21The terrain is very treacherous.
25:23It's very difficult.
25:24I would like to sort of submit for your consideration that 9-11 happened in 2001.
25:31When was the perpetrator of that heinous crime found?
25:35After 10 years.
25:36So, you know, these things are not that an incident takes place today and, you know, within a month or two months.
25:44Have patience.
25:45Operation Sindhu is still on.
25:47As far as the, you know, the question that you…
25:51I think if you look at it, after 22nd April, see how many world leaders, they called Prime Minister Modi and they told him,
26:01Dr. Jaishankar, they called, told him that we are with you in terms of providing justice to those who have been affected
26:09and giving punishment to the perpetrators.
26:13Fair enough.
26:1430-30 seconds, Dr. Shamaa Mohamad and Guru Prakash Paswan.
26:17Dr. Shamaa Mohamad, 30 seconds, quickly.
26:20No, no.
26:21My thing is, he spoke about 9-11.
26:22That's the mastermind of Osama bin Laden.
26:24The mastermind always…
26:25I mean, who released Mazoor Asad when we could have stormed the plane at that point of time in Amrit, sir?
26:32Okay.
26:33They gave him…
26:34They gave the terrorist on the plan, sir.
26:36We never released.
26:37We got Ashwal Kasap.
26:38We got…
26:39Who neutralized this family now?
26:40Who neutralized this family now?
26:41Who neutralized this family?
26:42I want to ask.
26:43Okay.
26:4430 seconds.
26:45Guru Prakash Paswan, I'm out of time, sir.
26:46Only Guru Prakash Paswan.
26:48You went…
26:49They went to Sharm el Sheikh.
26:51They went to Sharm el Sheikh with a begging bowl, Gaurav.
26:54We all remember after 26-11 when more than 200 Indians were killed, the Congress party had the audacity to go to Sharm el Sheikh with a begging bowl.
27:03We very well remember the fact there were 100 occasions, Gaurav, between 2004 and 2014 to retaliate, to give a counter-strike, to give a response.
27:12But the Congress party failed to give any strategic or any military response.
27:16This shows the courage and the audacity of the Congress party.
27:19Okay.
27:20Very clearly, this operation is still on.
27:23Yes, our opposition must ask questions and the government must respond to them.
27:28This time, let's keep in mind, Operation Sindhuur is still on.
27:32The government's punished Pakistan and it has.
27:35The armed forces, they've not only pulverized nine terror bases, including the headquarters at Mureetke and Jaishem Mohamad at Bahawalpur,
27:43nine plus 13 military bases.
27:47They've been targeted, including radar stations from Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir, from Skardu to Sindh across Pakistan's Punjab.
27:56But then, a lot more needs to be done because Pakistan repeatedly needs to get that message that terror can never be a low-cost option to bleed India.
28:08And we'll be tracking that story.
28:09To all my guests, many thanks for joining me.