Bill Mott joins this week’s TDN Writers Room, presented by Keeneland, to recap his Kentucky Derby victory and explain why he decided to skip the Preakness with Sovereignty. What’s on the road ahead for the Godolphin homebred? Find out in this week’s episode.
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00:00:00For the love of the horse, for generations to come.
00:00:28And welcome to another edition of the TDN Writer's Room podcast.
00:00:31My name is Bill Finley.
00:00:32I'm a correspondent for the TDN and I also co-hosted Down the Stretch radio show with
00:00:37Dave Johnson on Sirius XM radio.
00:00:39And this is not just any podcast of ours.
00:00:42This is our post Kentucky Derby podcast.
00:00:45I'm Randy Moss with NBC trying to catch up on my sleep after a very long and eventful
00:00:50Derby week.
00:00:51Zoe Cabin with First Racing and First TV.
00:00:55Randy, congratulations to Mr. Bill Finley for winning a Derby draft.
00:01:02I was obviously far too confident.
00:01:04That's a, you know, a jock being overconfident coming into the wire, just easing up in the
00:01:10Kentucky Derby, but well done, Bill.
00:01:12Good job.
00:01:13Thank you so much for that.
00:01:14And Randy, you, you've handicapped it.
00:01:16You said you would be last.
00:01:17I don't, did you make second or, uh, I'm not sure I, against all odds, I think it was a
00:01:23Finley Moss exacta and Zoe completed the trifecta, but I would have made Zoe the favorite
00:01:28going in.
00:01:29But anyway, things happen.
00:01:30Well, that was fun.
00:01:31We'll have to do it again next year.
00:01:32Well, everybody has a really good Kentucky Derby despite the rain and everything else.
00:01:38It was a formful race, a really good horse won.
00:01:40I didn't see too many horses get into a lot of trouble, no controversies.
00:01:45You know, we had nothing strange happen.
00:01:48And, uh, it was nice to see a Bill Mott win the Kentucky Derby the right way, rather than
00:01:53having a horse put up to disqualification, but many storylines and Zoe, I'll start with
00:01:58you with the first one.
00:01:59I thought Bill Mott, I mean, I know Junior Alvarado is this guy, but when he missed the
00:02:04Florida Derby and with a bruise, a broken shoulder, or if that was the injury, if not,
00:02:10please correct me.
00:02:11Um, he went to Manny Franco and then afterwards he had an opening.
00:02:15He could have picked any jockey in the country practically to ride this horse.
00:02:19And he went back to Junior Alvarado.
00:02:21These guys are magic together, what they pulled off.
00:02:24And I think Mott deserves a lot of credit.
00:02:26And I think Alvarado deserves a lot of credit for a flawless ride.
00:02:30Yeah.
00:02:31And apparently, uh, Bill Mott called him while he was in the hospital and assured him, listen,
00:02:36whatever happens, you get every single horse you've been riding back, which really puts
00:02:41a jockey's mind at ease.
00:02:44And it gave him the wherewithal to really work on himself and get better as quickly
00:02:49as he could.
00:02:50Initially, it was going to be four to six weeks.
00:02:52And then he went to another surgeon for a second opinion and they told him three to
00:02:56four and you're probably going to be okay.
00:02:58He doesn't drink.
00:02:59He doesn't smoke.
00:03:00He's fit as a fiddle.
00:03:01And that really helps.
00:03:02These jockeys can bounce back like no other.
00:03:05So when you know your Derby horse is getting saved, that gives you extra impetus to get
00:03:11back and kudos to Bill Mott for being so loyal.
00:03:14When you consider that the Eclipse award-winning jockey Flavian Pratt was open, Arad Ortiz
00:03:20was open, but Mott Install instead waiting for Pratt and Alvarado to heal up.
00:03:28So that was really cool.
00:03:29And his loyalty was rewarded in spades because that was a terrific ride.
00:03:34Yeah.
00:03:35The top three finishers in the Derby, I thought all got good rides.
00:03:39Compared to Riespley in journalism, Flavian Pratt, of course, and Baeza, you know, primarily
00:03:45it was that the horses fired big.
00:03:48And what I thought was heartening all day long Saturday, despite all of the rain at
00:03:55Churchill Downs, and there was a lot, the races were formful.
00:04:01The track handled the rain exceptionally well.
00:04:04The horses had good footing and race to race to race, even on the turf, which took a lot
00:04:11of rain as well.
00:04:13The races were very, very formful.
00:04:15So we were all kind of afraid, everybody was, I know, in the sport that you'd get these
00:04:19sort of wacky results with the sloppy racetrack.
00:04:22But no, I mean, it was extremely formful, competitive racing from the beginning of the
00:04:30day to the end.
00:04:31Like I said before, Bill Mott, after winning with Country House, I'm sure that must have
00:04:34been a sort of a flat victory.
00:04:37You know, you didn't cross the wire first, horse came down, you're 68 to one with Flavian
00:04:42Pratt aboard, by the way.
00:04:43So there was that connection to him.
00:04:46But this time, I mean, it was a flawless ride, no controversies.
00:04:51And I think the MC that was conducting the interview afterwards, the press interview,
00:04:58said he won it the right way.
00:05:01And Randy, indeed, it is the right way.
00:05:02And I'm sure that this has got to go down as one of the biggest thrills of his career.
00:05:07Oh, it is.
00:05:08And you know, I mean, the horse was really doing well all week long at Churchill Lounge.
00:05:14And plus, he had the previous form at Churchill as a two-year-old in the street scent stakes,
00:05:20which was obviously, you know, one of the best races of his career going into the Kentucky
00:05:26Derby.
00:05:28You know, Matt, I said it a couple of times on NBC, and I'll say it again here.
00:05:33I'm not saying anything you guys don't already know.
00:05:36There's no trainer in America and probably no trainer in the world that's any better
00:05:42than Bill Mott.
00:05:43Well, period.
00:05:44But primarily at pointing for a particular date and getting his horse to peak on that
00:05:51particular date.
00:05:52He's done it time and time and time again, and he did it again in the Kentucky Derby
00:05:57with Sovereignty.
00:05:58And how about Intermischief?
00:06:00That's three Derby winners.
00:06:01All right.
00:06:02You've got Authentic won it in 2020 in September.
00:06:05You have Mandaloon, who was put up in 21, and now you have Sovereignty and Intermischief
00:06:10also the grandsire of last year's winner in Mystic Dan.
00:06:15And it was only just back in 2020, we were like, can Intermischief, a progeny of Intermischief
00:06:20possibly get a mile and a quarter?
00:06:23And there you have it.
00:06:24The last five years.
00:06:25He's been absolutely amazing.
00:06:27Randy, last week on the show and also on the NBC show, you said that journalism was the
00:06:32best three year old in the country and Baeza was the second best.
00:06:36You almost got it right.
00:06:37Now is it journal?
00:06:38Are they the second and third best three year olds in the country?
00:06:42Because this was a definitive result.
00:06:45It was definitive.
00:06:46I mean, my trifecta was journalism, Baeza and Sovereignty, you know, but Sovereignty
00:06:53was the best horse on Saturday.
00:06:56No doubt about it.
00:06:57I mean, they all three had reasonably good trips.
00:07:01Baeza had to wait just a touch at the 516th pole before he got through, but nothing that
00:07:07would have really impacted the order of finish.
00:07:10Sovereignty just improved over the top, so to speak, of both the journalism and Baeza.
00:07:16You mentioned that it was a cleanly run race for a 19 horse field on the slop.
00:07:21The only things that I could see, first of all, the Churchill Down stewards, if they
00:07:26haven't already, need to give Martin Garcia a weak suspension for what happened at the
00:07:33start of the Kentucky Derby when Citizen Bull veered out sharply at the break and potentially
00:07:39could have really cost a few horses a chance to win in the Derby.
00:07:43As it turned out, it wasn't quite as bad as it may have looked.
00:07:47And then the worst trip of all in the Kentucky Derby was Burnham Square.
00:07:53Yeah, yeah.
00:07:56Brian Hernandez put him behind and maybe he had no choice but put him behind admired Daytona,
00:08:03who completely backed up into his face and forced him to check at roughly the half mile
00:08:09pole going into the second turn.
00:08:12And then he got stuck behind him and couldn't get around him.
00:08:15Because closer after closer, it comes flying by on the outside.
00:08:18Now, do I think he would have been in the top three?
00:08:21No, probably wouldn't have finished fourth.
00:08:26Final Gambit ran a heck of a race to finish fourth.
00:08:28So I don't know exactly how much it cost him a placing, maybe two.
00:08:32But Burnham Square, I thought, definitely had the roughest trip of anyone in there.
00:08:36For sure he did.
00:08:37There's no question in my mind, the horses, the horse that was actually finished the fastest
00:08:41of all was Baeza.
00:08:44His final eighth of a mile was absolutely wicked.
00:08:47I think he did it in 12 and three, absolutely flying in the latter stages.
00:08:52So it'll be really interesting to see where these guys ends up.
00:08:56John Sheriff's already said he's going to point for the Belmont, but journalism could
00:09:00well show up at the Preakness as well.
00:09:02And of course, Baeza is a half brother to last year's Belmont winner, Dornoch.
00:09:06So he's got that in his pedigree as well.
00:09:08I agree with you on that.
00:09:10One more thing about this past weekend, if we weren't going to get to it, how about good
00:09:15dolphin?
00:09:16Oh, yeah.
00:09:17Yeah.
00:09:18Internationally.
00:09:19Oh, my gosh.
00:09:20This is a record that might never, ever be broken.
00:09:23So they not only sweep, they not only sweep the Oaks Derby double with the undefeated
00:09:28good cheer and then with sovereignty.
00:09:31But while all that was going on, on Saturday and Sunday in England, on Saturday, they win
00:09:35the two thousand guineas with ruling court.
00:09:38And then on Sunday, they win the one thousand guineas for Phillies, comparable to our Oaks
00:09:42and Derby.
00:09:43Sort of.
00:09:44It's the beginning of the classics in the UK, but they win it Sunday with the undefeated
00:09:47desert flower.
00:09:48Can you believe that?
00:09:49That is incredible for Sheikh Mohammed and his team at Godolph.
00:09:53And congratulations there.
00:09:54Yeah, they just don't seem to have any bad words.
00:09:56Three homebreds.
00:09:57Yeah.
00:09:58Three homebreds as well.
00:09:59And the one they purchased from Keeneland for 150, who was the world's most expensive
00:10:05breezer over there for two point three million guineas.
00:10:08So yeah, just an amazing week.
00:10:10And someone said they painted the town blue, which is exactly what they did.
00:10:14It will be a feat that's never, ever repeated.
00:10:18So put on your jockey cap because I got to have a question for you.
00:10:24There's apparently and there hasn't been confirmation of this, but there are reports
00:10:30that Junior Alvarado used the whip seven times, one more than the limit allowed by Heysa.
00:10:39And if that's the case, he's going to get fined 10 percent of his earnings from the
00:10:47from the win, which would be thirty one thousand dollars.
00:10:50I've got mixed feelings about this, but I would say this much.
00:10:54If you're coming down the stretch and you're neck and neck in the Kentucky Derby, you are
00:10:59not going to.
00:11:00First of all, how do you keep count?
00:11:02And secondly, you're going to say, well, wait a minute, I may lose the Derby if I don't
00:11:06go to my stick one more time.
00:11:08The hell with it.
00:11:09Fine me just just in general.
00:11:11What do you think of this whole rule and and how it works out where, you know, Junior Alvarado
00:11:16still made a fortune, but thirty one thousand dollar fine.
00:11:19That's that's no chopped liver.
00:11:22Honestly, I don't think he'd care if it was three hundred thousand.
00:11:26Let's be honest, Bill, the Derby is the Derby and you are going to do whatever you can to
00:11:31win it.
00:11:32Now, it was at least seven is what they said.
00:11:35It might have been over seven.
00:11:36I don't know what the is it 10 and you're automatically dequeued.
00:11:41Is there a I don't know.
00:11:43There might be.
00:11:44I don't know either.
00:11:45We'll have to look it up and save that one for next week.
00:11:48But they said at least seven.
00:11:50But if I'm a jockey and I'm head and head, I'm not counting.
00:11:53I don't care.
00:11:54I don't care.
00:11:55You can take my whole check away and I've still won the Derby as long as you're not
00:12:00taking that away from me.
00:12:01Yeah.
00:12:02If it was just seven or even if it was eight, you know, I know people put so much emphasis
00:12:08on it.
00:12:09No one can convince me that the difference between six whip strokes and seven or eight
00:12:14made any difference at all in the way sovereignty ran in the Kentucky Derby.
00:12:17Right.
00:12:18But rules are rules and you have to draw the line somewhere to enforce it.
00:12:23And I mean, it would be unfortunate for his pocketbook.
00:12:26But like you say, he wins the Kentucky Derby.
00:12:29Who cares?
00:12:30Another storyline during the week was the return of Bob Baffert, of course, to the Derby
00:12:34after three year ban from Churchill Downs.
00:12:37Randy, you would know better than I was because you were there.
00:12:39But just from a distance, seemed like this wasn't as big a story as I would have thought.
00:12:45And that's kind of good.
00:12:46I'm sure Bob appreciated just being left alone for the most part, being able to come back
00:12:50and run in the Derby.
00:12:52Probably that had to do with the fact that he did not have he only had one horse and
00:12:56it was a horse that that citizen bulldog was, I think, 15 to 16 to one or something like
00:13:01that.
00:13:02So it wasn't a typical Baffert invasion of the Derby.
00:13:05But what was your take on his return and how did he seem to be reacting during the week
00:13:09and what other observations do you have?
00:13:12In Bob's words, it was like nothing ever happened.
00:13:16I mean, it was still, you know, I want to say party central, but it was still the main
00:13:20gathering spot right there outside of Baffert's Barn 33.
00:13:25Same barn as always.
00:13:26The signs were up.
00:13:29They were Churchill Downs was was treating Bob exceptionally well.
00:13:34Baffert was saying all the right things.
00:13:36You know, he said he's viewing the situation like he lost a horse race.
00:13:42He says one thing that trainers learn, it's how to turn the page when they're defeated.
00:13:48And he said, we tried our best.
00:13:50We tried our best with appeals.
00:13:51We tried our best in the courts and we lost.
00:13:54And I'm just turning the page and moving on.
00:13:57Everybody was holding hands and singing Kumbaya by the campfire.
00:14:02He didn't obviously have a leading contender, but still, I mean, it was great to have him
00:14:08back and he was he was the same Bob making wise cracks and having a good time.
00:14:14And his horses ran terrific.
00:14:16I mean, they really did.
00:14:17The ones on the undercard, he had a winner with goal orientated.
00:14:21You had Fort Bragg took down a stakes race.
00:14:24Hope Road ran huge to Copion in the Derby City.
00:14:28Nice off that massive break, ran a hell of a race as well.
00:14:32So, you know, his horses ran well.
00:14:34Mannequin Road and gaming were second and third in the Pat Day mile.
00:14:38They all showed up except Citizen Bull.
00:14:40But he was kind of in trouble before the race even started, really.
00:14:45Yeah. Talking about Citizen Bull, we mentioned Martin Garcia likely going to get dazed.
00:14:50But I saw a lot of fluttering and twittering about that.
00:14:54Martin intentionally steered that horse out.
00:14:57That there's no way on God's earth.
00:14:59Yes, he should have done a much better job of straightening him up and keeping him straight.
00:15:03But there's no way that Martin left the gate thinking, oh, I'm going to wipe out
00:15:07half the field in the Kentucky Derby, the first one I've ridden in 10 years.
00:15:12No way.
00:15:13The people that are tweeting about that are absolutely off out of their minds.
00:15:18Well, we're recording this on Wednesday.
00:15:20On Tuesday, the news broke that sovereignty would not be running in the Preakness.
00:15:25They came out with a statement, said that they're going to go on their way to the Belmont
00:15:29as their next start.
00:15:30Bill Mott is our Gainesway guest of the week.
00:15:32And you'll learn a lot more about this in the next segment when he comes on.
00:15:36Randy, I know you and I were talking off camera yesterday.
00:15:39You put it at 50-50.
00:15:41I put it at zero.
00:15:43I wasn't the least bit surprised.
00:15:45But I mean, this is what is modern horse racing now.
00:15:50And, you know, I kind of saw this all along.
00:15:52How about you?
00:15:53I was being overly optimistic when I said it was a coin flip.
00:15:58You know, if this were a normal series of stakes races and not the Triple Crown,
00:16:04there would be no chance in hell the Belmont would run this horseback
00:16:07in two weeks off the ultimate stress test for three-year-olds that is the Kentucky Derby.
00:16:14So no surprise at all.
00:16:17And again, obviously, it goes without saying that it rekindles that debate
00:16:22that we've had on this podcast.
00:16:23And I seem to be the flag bearer for this,
00:16:26for spacing the Triple Crown races out more than they are right now.
00:16:31Yeah, in agreement.
00:16:32It looks like something's going to change because horse racing isn't what it was
00:16:36even 10 years ago.
00:16:38You know, we have the advent of HISSA.
00:16:40There's more veterinary checks.
00:16:41I mean, 10 years ago in horse racing was a long time when we saw American Pharaoh
00:16:46and Justifying 2018 win the Triple Crown.
00:16:49We now have HISSA.
00:16:50There are more hoops to jump through.
00:16:53We've got a lot of eyes on the sport,
00:16:54and we've got a lot of eyes for good reason on the sport right now,
00:16:58which is a huge plus due to the advent of social media.
00:17:02Many thanks to Griffin Johnson for joining us as well.
00:17:04We need more of Griffin Johnson.
00:17:07But I'm not surprised.
00:17:09I was hopeful.
00:17:11And things need to change.
00:17:13I mean, why can't we have the first of every month?
00:17:16And it's going to land basically in Naira's lap as far as this is concerned.
00:17:20If we go first Saturday in May, first Saturday in June, first Saturday in August,
00:17:26something's going to have to change.
00:17:28And I have a feeling with this happening that it's going to be sooner rather than later.
00:17:34Yeah, if you said first Saturday in August, I think you meant first Saturday in July.
00:17:38Yeah, yeah.
00:17:39Well, Randy, you've been the flag bearer for this, but I'm catching up to you fast.
00:17:42I have a column in today's Storyboard Daily News.
00:17:45Took me about three seconds to write it because I know exactly what I want to say,
00:17:49saying the headline was enough already.
00:17:52Fix the triple crown.
00:17:53I agree with Zoe.
00:17:54I think the answer to have it first Saturday in May, first Saturday in June,
00:17:58first Saturday in July.
00:18:00They did that this year.
00:18:01There would be more than four weeks between the two races.
00:18:05There'd be five weeks between the Preakness and the Kentucky Derby.
00:18:09But it seems to me, and maybe this is unfair because they haven't really spoken publicly
00:18:15about this too much, that the roadblock is the New York Racing Association.
00:18:19They just do not want to move the Belmont.
00:18:22Now, on the one hand, I can see why, because the Belmont comes up every year now.
00:18:26It's going to be a great race.
00:18:27All the horses that ran well in the Derby are going to come back in it.
00:18:30Probably be some new shooters.
00:18:32But I think they might be shooting themselves in the foot because if nobody ever runs,
00:18:37Derby winners don't run in the Preakness.
00:18:39There's not a chance for anyone to win the triple crown.
00:18:41And that's when they get the 90,000 people.
00:18:44And that's when they get the front page attention and on 630 National News and whatnot.
00:18:49So I think Naira has a chance to lose more from this than they apparently think.
00:18:57And I know another argument might be that it'll hurt the Travers.
00:19:00It won't hurt the Travers.
00:19:01Travers is the end of August.
00:19:02That's plenty of time for horses to regroup and come back.
00:19:06Travers could move to Labor Day.
00:19:09What's wrong with that?
00:19:10They're still running.
00:19:12And it's ultimately going to make the Preakness harder to win.
00:19:16Right now, it's easier.
00:19:18How often does not like Bob Buffett said it, you know, years and years ago,
00:19:22it's easy to win the Preakness.
00:19:23Your horse is fit.
00:19:24You don't do anything.
00:19:25You're not running against who's been running in the Derby.
00:19:28You're going to run against some also ran or some B-listers unless you've got an amazing
00:19:33horse who's suddenly pointing for the Preakness.
00:19:36So it's going to be harder.
00:19:37It might be better.
00:19:39Yeah, that's the second component to this, Zoe.
00:19:42I mean, from Naira's point of view, the first is obviously that the fields for the Belmont
00:19:48are deeper and stronger when you get all the also rans from the Kentucky Derby that skip
00:19:53the Preakness and wait for the Belmont.
00:19:55But the second part of this is that with the Preakness easier to win now because it's a
00:20:00weaker field, it theoretically, as long as the Derby winner runs in the Preakness, it
00:20:05makes it more likely that Belmont will get a winner of the Derby and the Preakness to
00:20:12come there.
00:20:12And then, of course, the business is buffo and they make a ton of money off of that.
00:20:19I've been told, and this is secondhand, but I feel it comes from a fairly confident source
00:20:25that Naira has, which initially resisted.
00:20:29The Preakness has wanted to move and Naira said no, but that Naira has recently reached
00:20:35out to Pimlico and said that they would be amenable to discussing the possibility of
00:20:40changing the spacing after they got past the Saratoga element right now of the Belmont
00:20:47stakes and the Belmont was moved back to Belmont Park.
00:20:51So hopefully, hopefully that's the case.
00:20:54Yeah, I mean, what good is tradition if the weak link of the Preakness is dragging the
00:20:58entire Triple Crown down?
00:21:00So that's good to hear, Randy, because when the Stronach Group, which doesn't run
00:21:06Pimlico anymore, they run, it's complicated, they run the Preakness, they're in charge
00:21:10of running the Preakness this year, next year, but not any other part of the Maryland
00:21:15campaign.
00:21:16And then in what?
00:21:16So 2027, the new Maryland Jockey Club will take over running the Preakness.
00:21:22That's encouraging that, you know, and I'm sure your source is on top of things that
00:21:27they are talking about it, but they have to.
00:21:29I mean, they have to do this, you know, again, that's one of the greatest problems of
00:21:34racing.
00:21:34Nobody does what's right for the sport.
00:21:36Everybody does right for what does what's right for them.
00:21:40But and I'm repeating myself, I think in this case, Naira is doing the wrong thing
00:21:45for Naira.
00:21:46So I'm glad to hear that they are at least considering it.
00:21:50I do want to remind you that the TDN Writers Room is brought to you by Keeneland.
00:21:55And what a weekend it was for Keeneland grads.
00:21:58We already mentioned some of them already.
00:22:00Let's talk about Mindframe.
00:22:02He took the grade one Churchill down stakes.
00:22:04Copian won the grade one Derby City Distaff.
00:22:08Raging Sea won the grade one Lateran stakes.
00:22:11Spirit of St. Louis won the grade one Old Forester Turf Classic.
00:22:15And while the Kentucky Derby winner was a homebred, Across the Pond,
00:22:19the 2000 Guineas winner ruling court was a Keeneland September yearling as well.
00:22:25This year's Keeneland September sale takes place from September the 8th
00:22:29through the 20th.
00:22:30Make plans to attend.
00:22:49The fastest horse of the week is brought to you by Constitution.
00:23:08One of those fast sires at Windstar Farm.
00:23:10And Constitution is very proud right now that his son Mindframe defeated that
00:23:15stellar field in the Churchill down stakes last year.
00:23:18Constitution was a top five general sire and also a top five sire of three-year-olds.
00:23:25And obviously, Constitution is already off to a strong start in 2025.
00:23:30And so is Skelly, our fastest horse of the week for the second time in four weeks.
00:23:36Skelly's love affair with Oaklawn Park continued last Friday in the Lake
00:23:39Campbellton stakes.
00:23:40Remember, Skelly ran a 107 buyer speed figure off the bench in an April 11th
00:23:46allowance race at Oaklawn.
00:23:48This time, he just missed the track record Friday, running six furlongs in 108.15
00:23:55to win by 10.5 lengths with a career-high buyer of 110.
00:24:01The six-year-old Skelly lost his first two starts at Oaklawn as a three-year-old and
00:24:04now has reeled off 10 straight wins in Hot Springs.
00:24:09It was a great week for big buyers and all.
00:24:12Honorable mention goes to Copion's 109,
00:24:15the Canadian horse of the year, Patches O'Houlihan, ran a 108 Saturday at Woodbine
00:24:20and set a track record.
00:24:22And Fierceness got his 107.
00:24:29Welcome in now to Gainesway Guests of the Week.
00:24:31And in the aftermath of the Kentucky Derby, who else could it possibly be but Bill Mott
00:24:36made history in Derby 151, winning it for the second time, but for the first time without
00:24:41having to be moved up through disqualification.
00:24:44Bill, congratulations.
00:24:45Before we get to talk about the Derby though, we have to get to the topic du jour and the
00:24:50announcement yesterday that sovereignty would not be running in the Preakness.
00:24:54Could you just take us through your reasoning and the Godolphin reasoning and what ultimately
00:24:58made you guys decide not to go there?
00:25:02The main reason, nobody had ever talked about the Preakness before the Derby.
00:25:09Everybody was geared up to win the Kentucky Derby.
00:25:14And I think that was the main goal with this horse.
00:25:18We were able to pull it off for Sheikh Mohammed.
00:25:21It's the first Kentucky Derby that he's won.
00:25:25And of course, after the horse won, I knew that we'd have to decide one way or another
00:25:34what we were going to do.
00:25:35But I don't believe anybody else in the camp is overly, I shouldn't say overly concerned,
00:25:46but I don't think they're worried whether or not we go on to Pimlico or even thinking
00:25:54about a Triple Crown.
00:25:56I mean, we want to maybe try to space the horse's races a little bit more and maybe
00:26:04extend his career a little bit, if that makes any sense.
00:26:08I mean, we'd like to have him last a little longer.
00:26:11And I think if you put three races in a five-week period, and they're hard races, there was
00:26:17nothing easy about the race the other day.
00:26:21I think you probably take a little something out of him.
00:26:25And if we were only concerned about the Triple Crown, he'd probably be the perfect horse
00:26:33to do it with because he's a big, tough horse.
00:26:36And he came back good.
00:26:37And we could go on to the next one.
00:26:39But we decided to focus on the Belmont and perhaps the Travers if the Belmont goes well.
00:26:48And then we've got races later on.
00:26:51I mean, you've got the Breeders' Cup Classic, which that's going to be a tough division
00:26:57this year.
00:26:58But also, I think if we race the horse next year, the Dubai World Cup would probably be
00:27:06on his schedule if he's doing well.
00:27:09We can talk a little more about the three races in five weeks thing and that debate
00:27:14as we get a little more into this.
00:27:15But we don't want to make this more about the race sovereignty's not running in than
00:27:20the race he just won.
00:27:21When you won the Derby with Country House, you had to wait that agonizing 23 minutes.
00:27:27And you didn't really get the experience of feeling that elation when your horse crossed
00:27:32the finish line first, which obviously you did Saturday.
00:27:36Was it everything you thought it would be?
00:27:39And maybe a little more.
00:27:42It's pretty special, I've got to tell you.
00:27:44I mean, we really enjoyed Country House's eventual victory in that race.
00:27:51But I always wanted to come back and be able to do it this way.
00:27:55I thought maybe the fact that we were put up in the other race, it maybe took a little
00:28:02something away from it, I suppose, as far as the full pleasure of getting it done.
00:28:15But it hasn't stopped yet.
00:28:20I'm still hearing from people.
00:28:22And I guess you realize how many people watch the race on television and the number of people
00:28:29that were at the track, over 130,000.
00:28:31And it's a big deal.
00:28:37I'm proud and I'm glad to be part of the team that made this happen.
00:28:43I'm just a small part of it because there's so much that goes into it from, as I've said
00:28:53before, the matings and raising the horse and then eventually getting them to us.
00:28:58And then we had just really from the Florida Derby to through the Derby, everything went
00:29:07perfectly.
00:29:08We didn't have any setbacks, no sickness, no lameness, no filling, no missed training
00:29:17days because of for one reason or another.
00:29:20And he went into it great.
00:29:23And we knew we were doing it with a very good horse and a horse that was probably capable
00:29:28of pulling it off.
00:29:31Bill, all week long, watching the numerous interviews that you had to do all week long,
00:29:37did your horse have a poo today?
00:29:38Did he go out to the track?
00:29:40How many times has he walked around the shed row?
00:29:43You seem like you were just so confident going into the race specifically because of everything
00:29:49that you've said.
00:29:50Everything has gone right.
00:29:52Can you take us through the race?
00:29:53Were there any anxious moments for you?
00:29:55And what was that feeling like crossing the wire in front with Junior Alvarado considering
00:30:00what he'd gone to leading into it?
00:30:03Yeah, I know it's hard to imagine, but I didn't have any anxious moments.
00:30:11In fact, I even thought about it.
00:30:14I thought about it earlier in the day as we were watching our other races.
00:30:19And when they were going to the gate, loading in the gate, I had, I was absolutely felt
00:30:30calm.
00:30:31I was excited naturally to see the race, but there was nothing, I don't know, there was
00:30:39nothing that really bothered me.
00:30:41And I watched the race.
00:30:45I don't think I said, I didn't say one word after they broke from the gate until they
00:30:51finished the race.
00:30:52And I just watched through the binoculars.
00:30:54And then all of a sudden when it came true, when it was really final, we let loose.
00:31:06Wow.
00:31:07I apologize, but I got one more preakness question for you.
00:31:12There's a lot of talk about changing the spacing between the races.
00:31:16I've advocated that they should be the first Saturday in May, first Saturday in June, first
00:31:20Saturday in July.
00:31:22If that were the case, there'd be five weeks this year between the Derby and the preakness.
00:31:27I know it's all hypothetical, but if you had five weeks in between races, do you think
00:31:32you might've run them?
00:31:36That's certainly possible.
00:31:39I wouldn't, I wouldn't say it wouldn't be possible.
00:31:41That would be, we'd certainly be more apt to do it that way.
00:31:47It's the way it is now, and I'm not advocating for changing it because I think that's above
00:31:53my pay grade.
00:31:54I mean, I think the, I think the triple crown is a tremendous challenge, uh, the way it's
00:32:00set up, but I think we're probably 40 years beyond what it used to be.
00:32:08I think it in, in, in times past, I don't think you had some of these other important
00:32:15races that you have with the triple crown.
00:32:17Now, I think it was probably all decided by the triple crown.
00:32:21You could, you could feasibly have a, have a triple crown winner and probably have some
00:32:26horse, an older horse when the breeders cup classic, and he wouldn't even be horse of
00:32:30the year.
00:32:30I mean, it just, uh, I think the bree, since the breeders cup has come into play, uh, I,
00:32:37I believe that it's changed the, the probably changed the meaning of the, of the triple
00:32:44crown a little bit, uh, because now you've got horses that run in the, run in the Derby
00:32:52and, and then all of a sudden you go to the Preakness, say you're the winner, there might
00:32:58be five or six horses in there that bypass the Derby.
00:33:01So they didn't even have the stress of running in the Derby and, and moving on to the Preakness
00:33:08there, there's, it's an entire different group of horses.
00:33:12So they're, they're shooting you, shooting at you from all directions, so to speak.
00:33:18Um, and I know there are horses that, uh, have been pointing for the Preakness and just
00:33:27because they know that, uh, chances are the, there's a good possibility the second, third
00:33:34horses or fourth horses aren't even going to be running in there.
00:33:37I don't know if it'd be interesting to look back and see if 40 years ago, if the majority
00:33:46of the horses that ran in the Derby came back and ran in the Preakness, you know, but I
00:33:51know that's not the case now.
00:33:53Yeah.
00:33:54Well, I've got the stats for you.
00:33:55If you want to hear, uh, maybe we can do it later at some other point.
00:33:58It's been a, it's, it's been a market decrease in the number of runners up in third place
00:34:03finishers, for example, from the sixties through the two thousands compared to now.
00:34:08Uh, but back to the, back to the Derby for a second.
00:34:11Uh, even people that don't, that aren't around the horse on a regular basis could tell the
00:34:19way he was training at Churchill Downs seemed to be a step forward.
00:34:25Did you see that?
00:34:26And how do you explain that?
00:34:30Well, we probably let him do a little more.
00:34:32Um, I don't, I don't think we were, you know, we didn't, we didn't hang him out to dry early
00:34:39in the year.
00:34:39I mean, we brought him, brought him along with just a normal progression and we got
00:34:44two races in him.
00:34:46And I think we, you know, we let him pick the tempo up a little bit when we got to Churchill
00:34:51Downs and put a couple of nice works in him.
00:34:54And he responded, he was a horse that, you know, the more we trained him, the better
00:34:58he got.
00:34:59And, uh, very, you know, a very durable, strong individual and, and with a good constitution
00:35:08and his, his appetite was good all the time.
00:35:12And, you know, we never backed him out of the feed tub.
00:35:16Bill, talk to us about Junior Alvarado and your relationship with him.
00:35:21I'm in Saratoga all summer and he is like a mainstay at your barn.
00:35:26Might even gallop a couple.
00:35:27He seems to do everything.
00:35:28When he got hurt, you had to use Manny Franco, who was a very, very good replacement.
00:35:35But from what we've heard, you called Junior and said, no matter what happens, no matter
00:35:39how long it takes, he will get his horses back.
00:35:43And that seemed to mean an awful lot to him.
00:35:46How much did it mean to you knowing that he was waiting in the wings for sovereignty?
00:35:51Well, he knew him better than anybody else.
00:35:53I mean, he had ridden him, you know, several times and, and had a relationship with the
00:35:58horse.
00:35:59He seemed to know when the horse needed to run.
00:36:03And I think he had a lot of confidence in how much horse he had under him.
00:36:06I think it's probably, you know, if you've riding a horse for the first time, you don't,
00:36:12you don't know that, but after you've become familiar with him and, you know, when he starts
00:36:18his run, how big a run he's gotten, how, you know, when, when you, when you can wait
00:36:24a little longer and when you can, you know, how much you, you, you know, are going to
00:36:30have under you when you do ask him.
00:36:32And I think he, you know, he was very familiar with the horse on that part of it.
00:36:39But as far as our relationship with Junior, I mean, he's always there.
00:36:44Uh, you know, if, if I enter a horse and I need a rider, he's, you know, he's always
00:36:50there for me and he doesn't ride all of them, but he rides 75%, I'd say, or over 50% for
00:36:57sure.
00:36:58And, uh, you know, I've got naturally, I've got some owners that, you know, they want
00:37:04to get, you know, another jockey, or they've got a relationship with another jockey.
00:37:08As long as they're a good rider and I'm, I'm agreeable that that's fine.
00:37:13I don't, I don't, you know, uh, you know, as, as you can imagine, you know, some of
00:37:20the, the top riders are not available, uh, on many days that, you know, you might have
00:37:29a horse that, you know, you want to put them on, uh, you know, like Pratt is tied up with
00:37:36Chad Brown and Irad's tied up with Todd Pletcher.
00:37:39And, you know, you go right down the line and some of these other riders have, have
00:37:44their outfits and that's, uh, understandable, but, uh, Junior's always been there for us
00:37:50on a regular basis if we needed him.
00:37:52And, and I'd say we, you know, we went with him on a regular basis and, and he rides a
00:37:59lot of horses for me that, uh, are either first time starters or horses that we're
00:38:05trying to get to the races.
00:38:06And they might not be four to five or two to one.
00:38:09Some of them are 10 to one, some of them are eight to one, some of them even higher, but
00:38:14I know that he'll get them around the track.
00:38:16We'll get a line on them and, and, uh, you know, part of the process of figuring out
00:38:22what you've got.
00:38:22And he's been very helpful in that regard.
00:38:24So, uh, you know, they don't have to all be, be the favorite for him to, uh, want to ride
00:38:32them for us.
00:38:33Bill, Randy Moss has said on this show many a time that there's no better trainer in the
00:38:37sport, uh, for picking out a race they want to win and getting the horse there the right
00:38:42way.
00:38:42Uh, keeping that in mind, I was wondering, did you leave something in the tank in the
00:38:46Florida Derby?
00:38:47Because it was a regression from his previous race.
00:38:50And then he runs the race of his life in the Kentucky Derby.
00:38:54Um, you want to win the Florida Derby, but I'm sure it's not the main goal.
00:38:58How did you approach that?
00:39:00No, I think we thought we had him ready to go.
00:39:02And, uh, but I think if, if you, you know, I, I know a lot of guys use speed figures
00:39:09and that sort of thing, and you've got the, the, the bounce effect and, and the possibility
00:39:15of a little regression and, and a horse's second race off a layoff.
00:39:20And I think that could have happened.
00:39:22I think speed figure wise, I think it shows where he ran a, a similar race.
00:39:27To what he did in the Fountain of Youth, but I think it's only normal, you know, coming
00:39:33back in four weeks off of a big race, like you ran in the Fountain of Youth that they
00:39:37could, uh, regress a little bit, but, you know, we've always also heard that sometimes
00:39:44the third race back for a horse is, is sometimes their best.
00:39:50And I think that's probably what happened on, on Derby day.
00:39:53Well, no, I'm not done.
00:39:55I got a couple more, but we've got Bill here now.
00:40:00I'm not letting him go just yet.
00:40:02Where did you go the night after the Derby?
00:40:04Because, you know, the whole world was at Jeff Ruby's, but you opt to go a different
00:40:09direction.
00:40:09Where was Bill Mott and Tina Mott?
00:40:13We went to Joe's older than dirt.
00:40:16It's a little bar out in St.
00:40:18Matthews that we had rented an Airbnb out near there a few years ago.
00:40:23And we went there, of course, when you, when you're, you know, you get done with the Derby,
00:40:28it's, you're leaving the barn at nine 30 at night.
00:40:31So in a, in a, in Louisville, it's hard to get into the Derby, but, uh, we went to Joe's
00:40:39You're leaving the barn at nine 30 at night.
00:40:41So in a, in a, in Louisville, it's hard to get into any restaurants and, you know, we,
00:40:47we don't make plans beforehand.
00:40:50Um, and, uh, so my family, my wife and I, and, and Riley and his wife and a couple of
00:40:57their friends, uh, went with us to, we went to this little local pub and it was jam packed.
00:41:03And, uh, somebody recognized us when we walked through the door, which, you know, the first
00:41:10time we'd gone there was, was, uh, after country houses Derby.
00:41:15And so we're, we've been making it a tradition every year to go there after the Derby.
00:41:21And, uh, uh, it was kind of funny.
00:41:24The first time I was sitting at the bar and I had the lady, okay, we're going to have a
00:41:30celebratory drink.
00:41:32And she, you know, she said, how, how was your day?
00:41:35You need to go to the races.
00:41:36I said, yeah, we're at the races.
00:41:38How'd you do?
00:41:38I said, we did good.
00:41:39We had a good day.
00:41:41And then there was a TV monitor behind us and she turned around and she's, you know,
00:41:45pouring a drink and she looks up at the monitor and she looks back at me and she, you know,
00:41:50it was, it was kind of funny.
00:41:53Uh, but, uh, and she, the same lady was there the other night and, uh, we had a good time
00:41:59just listening to some music and, you know, had a couple of beers and, and, uh, you know,
00:42:06easy in, easy out.
00:42:07And we all had a good time.
00:42:09Um, I see your wall of fame behind you.
00:42:12It looks like you're in Saratoga, your lake house.
00:42:15Who've you got back there?
00:42:16Cigar.
00:42:18There's some horseshoe.
00:42:19There's cigar Royal Delta.
00:42:23Um, we've got my pony, uh, half pint and we've got the, one of the finish, the head on finish
00:42:32of country house.
00:42:34Uh, I've got four shoes up there that cigar war in, in, uh, one of his races and Mrs.
00:42:43Revere, her pictures on there.
00:42:46And in the corner, I've got a picture of, uh, my first winter at Fort Pierce, South
00:42:52Dakota, where the purse was $500 and she dead heated for the win.
00:42:57And I've got the winning blanket over here.
00:43:00Uh, we, we dead heated for the wind person is 500.
00:43:03We flipped a coin for the blanket and I won the coin toss for the, for the blanket, which
00:43:09was the trophy at that time.
00:43:11And, uh, so, uh, that was 1968, I think.
00:43:18Wow.
00:43:18I think it was 1968.
00:43:20So guessing that there's probably going to be a spot on the wall of fame there for a
00:43:24sovereignty, the near future.
00:43:26Well, we might, we might have to make a bigger wall.
00:43:30I don't know.
00:43:32Yeah.
00:43:32I think he'll, he'll, he'll get a, he'll get a spot up there, but, um, yeah, there's, there's
00:43:40been a lot of good ones that have passed through our barn.
00:43:44And, uh, you know, I, I was talking to somebody earlier about, you know, sometimes you don't
00:43:52realize when you've got a good horse like that.
00:43:56And I mean, not necessarily sovereignty, but any horse that you're, you know, you're running
00:44:00in grade ones and they're winning these major races, you know, you're going about it.
00:44:05You're just, you're doing your job.
00:44:07You're trying to get them from race A to race B to race C and try to do everything
00:44:11you can to, you know, get them there the right way.
00:44:15And while you're doing that, sometimes you don't really sit back and realize how good
00:44:21a horse that they really are.
00:44:23I mean, it's just, uh, you know, it's like Royal Delta.
00:44:26She was a champion three years in a row.
00:44:29And, uh, you know, you go through it and you know, she's a good horse, but you don't, you
00:44:35don't, you just don't think like, wow, she's a three-time champion.
00:44:39And, uh, you know, horses like Cody's wish.
00:44:43I mean, uh, they're, they're so hard to come by.
00:44:48Very cool.
00:44:48Is sovereignty on his way to Saratoga?
00:44:52He will be, yes, shortly.
00:44:53Yeah.
00:44:55And what about Irma?
00:44:57Irma, Irma's already in Saratoga.
00:44:59Yeah.
00:45:00She'll be, she'll be, uh, she'll meet him with a bag of carrots when he gets here.
00:45:06Well, we want to thank Bill Mott very much.
00:45:09I know he's a very busy man and a busy time of the year for him for coming on the TDN
00:45:13Writer's Room podcast as the Gainesway guest of the week.
00:45:16Bill, congratulations.
00:45:17And we'll see you at the Belmont.
00:45:19Okay.
00:45:21Bill Mott's appearance as our guest of the week was brought to you by Gainesway, the
00:45:25home of McKenzie, sire of Kentucky Derby third place finisher Baeza.
00:45:29McKenzie now tops all sires with five grade one winners or grade one placed
00:45:36runners among his 2022 crop that are now three-year-olds this year.
00:45:41This would make a nice racing final Jeopardy question.
00:45:44Name the others besides Baeza.
00:45:46Gainesway knows the answer.
00:45:48Who are grade one winners, Chancellor McPatrick and Scottish Lassie and grade
00:45:52one placed Quick Kick and McKenzie Street.
00:45:56So in that category, McKenzie beats Into Mischief, Medaglia d'Oro, Tapit, Nyquist,
00:46:02Kirtland, and McKenzie stands at Gainesway Farm for a fee of $75,000.
00:46:08Gainesway, power, passion, performance.
00:46:13It's a domineering display by the ultra-talented McKenzie.
00:46:17McKenzie in a dominant performance.
00:46:20One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.
00:46:26One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.
00:46:28Chancellor McPatrick wins the champagne impressively.
00:46:31It is going to be all Scottish Lassie.
00:46:34She wins the present easily.
00:46:37So in this week's edition of First Things First, I thought I would give a tip of the
00:46:52hat to the California horses who competed so darn well this past weekend at Churchill
00:46:57Downs.
00:46:58Let's lead off with obviously journalism and Mike McCarthy running second in the Kentucky
00:47:03Derby.
00:47:04Baeza for sheriffs running third.
00:47:06Look Forward took the eight bells for trainer Mike McCarthy.
00:47:10Boss Sully for trainer Brian Coroner was second in the Churchill Downs sprint.
00:47:15Queen Maxima, she's four for four this year for Jeff Mullins.
00:47:18She took down the unbridled Sidney.
00:47:20We had Kopien took down the Derby City Distaff for Hall of Famer Dick Mandela.
00:47:25Hope Road for Bob Buffett was second in that race.
00:47:28Fort Bragg took down the St. Matthew Stakes.
00:47:31Goal orientated for Hall of Famer Bob Buffett won a high powered allowance race.
00:47:36And then we've got Mattercat Road in the Pat Day mile and Nysos in the Churchill Downs
00:47:42as well.
00:47:43So just a plethora of California horses doing what they do well.
00:47:48Damn anyone that not California racing.
00:47:51All right.
00:47:52California racing does continue on Friday.
00:47:54That's my rant over with.
00:47:56We'll be back at Santa Anita Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
00:48:00And to go to the website, Santa Anita dot com for an update on Mother's Day brunch.
00:48:05Bring your mom to the great race place.
00:48:09Well, not only was it a good Kentucky Derby, the undercard on both Oaks Day and Derby Day
00:48:13was some of the best racing you could ever hope for.
00:48:16I mean, big stars in every single race.
00:48:18Competitive races really was a ton of fun.
00:48:22So let's start with the second most important race of the week.
00:48:25And that was the Kentucky Oaks.
00:48:27And this is one I don't have much to say about.
00:48:29What more can you say about good cheer?
00:48:32You know, she is just an absolute machine.
00:48:34Just goes out there every single time.
00:48:36This is interesting, though.
00:48:37She won by two and a quarter lengths to behind ahead of Drexel Hill.
00:48:42That, by the way, is the closest any horse has ever come to beating her two and a quarter
00:48:47lengths.
00:48:47But she's in great hands with Brad Cox.
00:48:50And, you know, she's just going to mow him down, I think, throughout the rest of the
00:48:54summer when races like the Alabama Coaching Club and maybe even the Breeders' Cup Distaff
00:48:58as well.
00:48:59She is really good.
00:49:01And she proved it again on Kentucky Oaks Day.
00:49:03She's a machine, like you said.
00:49:05I mean, she's not all that much to look at.
00:49:07She's not one of these big, statuesque, gorgeous, you know, race mares, race fillies.
00:49:12She just goes out there and does what she has to do.
00:49:15And what I thought was kind of really interesting is that she wasn't even the best two-year-old
00:49:22filly or three-year-old filly at the beginning of the year in Cox's Barn, at least in their
00:49:28estimation, because they had Immersive last year's Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies winner
00:49:33and the two-year-old filly champion.
00:49:34And then Immersive gets hurt.
00:49:36And lo and behold, Good Cheer steps up her game even more.
00:49:40And Zoe, she just, even though her numbers may not be that great, as I pointed out last
00:49:45week, why I took a shot against her, she just continues to run the same way every time,
00:49:50dominating fashion.
00:49:52And what a great name, Good Cheer, because you had to cheer for her.
00:49:56She came seven wide turning for home.
00:49:58Louie knows her like the back of his hand.
00:50:00What by a speed figure did she get, Randy?
00:50:02Did she get any higher than a 91?
00:50:04I think a 92 or 93.
00:50:07I mean, she just like, you know, she never wows you in the analytics department, but
00:50:12she certainly wows you in the visuals when you're watching her run.
00:50:15A perfect seven for seven, $1.7 million in the bank.
00:50:19And she kicked off a massive weekend for Godolphin.
00:50:22So I was delighted for the whole team.
00:50:25She's, she is an absolute machine.
00:50:29Yeah, I'm sure we'll see more of her probably up in Saratoga or maybe even, yeah, probably,
00:50:33you know, sometime in Saratoga, maybe during the Belmont State.
00:50:37Wouldn't it be ironic if she would happen to get beat in the Alabama because that's
00:50:44Brad Cox thought that he was, she was his Alabama filly and immersive was the Oaks filly.
00:50:50And I mean, wouldn't it be awful if she actually got beat for the first time in the Alabama?
00:50:54I can't think that way though.
00:50:57Stay positive about that.
00:50:59All right.
00:50:59There's so many races.
00:51:00We obviously can't talk about all of them, but the La Troyenne was a story not for who
00:51:05won, but for who lost.
00:51:08And the race was won by Raging Sea, but Torpedo Anna really threw in a clunker.
00:51:15She was dead last beaten eight and a half lengths and coming into this, she had had
00:51:2012 lifetime starts and 10 wins in two seconds.
00:51:24So she had never even been worse than second.
00:51:26I talked to Kenny McPeak yesterday and they sent her to Ruden Riddle as, you know, precautionary
00:51:31measures.
00:51:32They couldn't find anything wrong with her.
00:51:33And he did come up with the theory and he's not saying this is definitely right.
00:51:37But on the first turn, she got sandwiched between Darth Vader and randomized, kind of
00:51:41bumped and bounced around a little bit.
00:51:44Didn't seem like that big of a deal.
00:51:46But Kenny wonders if it was a bigger deal than it might've looked at first glance.
00:51:50And he thinks they knocked the wind out of her and that she wasn't able to recover.
00:51:54Now, you know, he's not using this as an excuse.
00:51:57He's using it as a theory because there's gotta be some explanation.
00:52:02If she passes all the tests from Dr. Bramlage, comes back, she's doing fine.
00:52:07What happened?
00:52:08Well, maybe it was that three weeks.
00:52:11That's what happened.
00:52:13Yeah, I do.
00:52:14And I'm no expert.
00:52:15I mean, he's running through the mail and checked her out.
00:52:19Yes, she got bumped around, but she says she's a racehorse.
00:52:21She can handle that.
00:52:23She's a racehorse.
00:52:24Maybe it was just too much too soon for her this year against some really, really good
00:52:30fillies and mares raging sea by curling out of a storm cap, man.
00:52:34Now, they don't make those anymore.
00:52:36She's got some hell of a breeding behind a perfect ride by Pratt.
00:52:41And, you know, Brian didn't persevere with her when she just wasn't going anywhere.
00:52:46I mean, that's the only thing I can think of is that we've not seen her run her AA game
00:52:51this year.
00:52:52Maybe she's not quite the same as last year, and maybe being not quite the same and running
00:52:57back in three weeks against some top class race mares was just too much.
00:53:02I think you hit the nail right on the head, Zoe.
00:53:05That's exactly what I was going to say.
00:53:07Right.
00:53:07I mean, this is a filly that given her past accomplishments, you would expect, you know,
00:53:15I don't want to I don't want to make the game all about numbers because it's about so much
00:53:19more than that.
00:53:21But she clearly at Oakland didn't run as fast as she ran in the Breeders Cup to staff.
00:53:27She didn't run anywhere near as fast, for example, as she had run in the Traverse.
00:53:31And we pointed out on the podcast that maybe she was the type of filly that just rises
00:53:37to the level of her competition.
00:53:39And she doesn't necessarily run fast numbers all the time.
00:53:42But when they're two to five or three to five or something like that, and they and they
00:53:47have underperformed in the analytics department going in as horseplayers, you got to take
00:53:54a shot against them.
00:53:55That's why I like the trifecta with Raging Sea and Randomized on top of Torpedo Anna
00:54:01for her to finish third, even though she'd never run better than, you know, worse than
00:54:05second in her career.
00:54:07But I think all of us were shocked that she ran as poorly as she did.
00:54:14Next race we're going to talk about on this Friday card was terrific, was the Ali Sheba
00:54:18and Fierceness is back.
00:54:20It was his first start since he ran that tremendous race in the Breeders Cup Classic where he
00:54:25got caught up in that vicious speed duel and still held on for second.
00:54:28He comes back in the Ali Sheba.
00:54:30He was the story of the race.
00:54:32He didn't blow anybody away.
00:54:34I think that what happened is most wanted who ran second, ran a huge race.
00:54:39But I think I read and someone on the racing forum quoted Todd Pletcher saying he thinks
00:54:43Fierceness is the best horse in training.
00:54:46And he certainly can back that up with the kind of record this horse has had since last
00:54:51year's Derby debacle where he had one of those odd races.
00:54:55He just didn't run.
00:54:56He's three for four.
00:54:58And his only loss was again in the Breeders Cup Classic where, you know, many people think
00:55:02that he ran the best race of anybody in there.
00:55:05It'd be interesting to see what he does next.
00:55:07Fierceness is likely to go to the Met Maya, but we'll get to it in a minute.
00:55:11Mindframe, another horse out of the Pletcher barn, might want to go in that same race as
00:55:15well.
00:55:15So Todd's either going to have to run the two of them against each other or figure out
00:55:18a way to find a race for Mindframe someplace else.
00:55:23But, Zoe, yeah, you know, he did his job.
00:55:27He most certainly did.
00:55:28Didn't he set a track record, Fierceness, in that race?
00:55:32He was terrific.
00:55:33And we mentioned last week how well he'd been working leading into the race, something that
00:55:38I'd never seen from him before.
00:55:40So we're going to have a bigger, better version of Fierceness.
00:55:44That's incredible.
00:55:45We have a hell of an older horse division this year alone.
00:55:49And let us not forget about Locke, too.
00:55:51Obviously, he's going to want to go a distance of ground.
00:55:54They kind of took him out of his game.
00:55:56He needs to go at least a mile and a quarter.
00:55:59I don't think he lost really much in defeat.
00:56:01I was surprised he ran as bad as he did.
00:56:04I thought he wouldn't win, but he'd at least be right there.
00:56:08So we'll wait and see where he shows up.
00:56:10But Mike Rapoli came back with a vengeance after the scratch of Grandy, and he let everybody
00:56:16know, didn't he, Randy?
00:56:18Oh, he did.
00:56:18Yeah, he was vintage Mike Rapoli after Fierceness and Mindframe.
00:56:23I thought it was a perfect comeback race for Fierceness coming off the layoff, right?
00:56:27I mean, the pace was really slow by top-class grade one type horse standards, even though
00:56:32this is a grade two race.
00:56:33It was clearly a grade one on paper, 48.31 for the half mile, which is why most wanted
00:56:40held on so gamely in the run through the stretch.
00:56:42John Velasquez on Fierceness was just riding him with extreme confidence, parked him in
00:56:48fourth place early, kept him outside, and the horse did his thing.
00:56:53And it was a 107 buyer speed figure, the perfect comeback race for Fierceness now before the
00:56:59mid-mile.
00:57:00I thought the most fun and maybe interesting part of the race was why he was in the Al
00:57:06Isheba in the first place.
00:57:08Todd already had it marked down that Fierceness was going to run in the Westchester at a one
00:57:14turn mile at Aqueduct this coming weekend.
00:57:18And locked was his horse for the Al Isheba, even though he thought that the distance might
00:57:22be a little too short for him.
00:57:23And then right before it was entry time, Mike Rapoli reached out to Todd and told him that
00:57:29he really wanted to run Fierceness on Derby Day.
00:57:32And he was nominated to the Churchill Noundstakes at seven furlongs and to the Al Isheba at
00:57:37a mile and a 16th.
00:57:39And Todd said, I think Mike knew which of the two races, if I was forced to run them
00:57:43in one of those two that I would choose to go in.
00:57:46And so Todd acquiesced and said, if he's going to be ready next week, he can be ready
00:57:51Saturday.
00:57:52So that's why Fierceness wound up in the Al Isheba.
00:57:55Do you think Todd thanked him afterwards?
00:58:00Let's see.
00:58:01What was the purse?
00:58:02$750,000.
00:58:04I think you probably should have if you did.
00:58:08Yeah, amazing.
00:58:08That was a grade two race.
00:58:09Like you said, Randy, that was one of the grade one quality up and down, especially
00:58:13with a $750,000 purse.
00:58:15Maybe they'll change that next year.
00:58:17All right.
00:58:17So now we move on to Saturday and Fierceness's friend Mindframe ran in the Churchill Noundstakes.
00:58:25I thought this was the most exciting race of the weekend.
00:58:28My goodness.
00:58:29Four really good horses right on the wire.
00:58:32Mindframe wins by a neck over the Dead Heating, Banishing, and Nysos.
00:58:37Nysos ran a terrific race considering the obstacles he had to overcome.
00:58:42The long layoff coming in fresh in a sloppy track, whatever.
00:58:46And how about my guy Bookum Dano?
00:58:48Just missed by about a length finishing fourth.
00:58:50Go Dano.
00:58:51But yeah, Randy, that was one hell of a race.
00:58:54Oh, Mindframe by a neck.
00:58:56Banishing, Dead Heated with Nysos.
00:58:59They were ahead in front of Bookum Dano and fourth, who was just a length in front of
00:59:03Mulligan and fifth.
00:59:04So five horses within a length and a neck of each other at the wire.
00:59:09It's like a turf race.
00:59:10It was fantastic coming down to the wire.
00:59:12Now, you mentioned Mindframe and Nysos and Bookum Dano.
00:59:14The best horse in the race on Saturday was Banishing, who was coming back in only a couple
00:59:19of weeks.
00:59:20I mean, David Jacobson has done a remarkable job with this horse, who was a former Godolphin
00:59:26horse, by the way.
00:59:27Banishing.
00:59:28He was squeezed back at the start, knocked back to last, coming back off only two weeks,
00:59:33and yet still worked his way through traffic and managed to just lose by a neck to Mindframe.
00:59:39One more point I want to make about this.
00:59:42Maybe I'll turn out to be wrong.
00:59:45I do not put Mindframe in the same category as Fierceness.
00:59:51I still think Mindframe is a cut below Fierceness.
00:59:56Fierceness, I thought, was the best horse in the Breeders' Cup Classic last year because
00:59:59of the pace.
00:59:59You mentioned it.
01:00:02Mindframe still got something to prove in my eyes, even though he was a gutty winner
01:00:06against a good field at 7.8.
01:00:09Total agreement.
01:00:11Double what Randy said.
01:00:12Terrific performance by Mindframe, but Fierceness would definitely get the nod.
01:00:18He's just got to move forward off of that race.
01:00:20You know, I agree with you guys, but it's coming off a little bit as like you're selling
01:00:24this horse short.
01:00:26I mean, look at what he accomplished last year, running second in the Belmont in his
01:00:30third lifetime start, beating a terrific field.
01:00:34Now, you're right.
01:00:35Fierceness may be in a league of his own, but I wouldn't take anything away from Mindframe.
01:00:41Neither would I take anything away from Kopyon, the winner of the Derby City Distaff.
01:00:47And after she ran that blazing 1.10 earlier this year in California, she comes back and
01:00:53runs a 1.09 by her.
01:00:55And Randy, I'll ask you this question.
01:00:58Is she, male or female, the best sprinter in the United States right now?
01:01:02She might be.
01:01:03I mean, there are some pretty good ones out there, and knowing Richard Mandela and Kopyon's
01:01:10form, she'll be pointed ultimately for the Breeders' Cup filly and mare sprint.
01:01:16Just because it's seven eighths of a mile.
01:01:18I don't think Kopyon is quite sharp enough to handle the top male sprinters going three
01:01:23quarters.
01:01:24But right now, I mean, Mandela has her clicking on all cylinders.
01:01:29She was awesome.
01:01:31Explain this to me.
01:01:32Why is the filly and mare sprint seven furlongs and the males is six?
01:01:38Does anyone know the answer to that?
01:01:40No, not a clue.
01:01:42The only thing I could figure, Zoe, is that the Breeders' Cup still wanted a scenario
01:01:51where, let's say, horses like Extra Heat would still compete against the boys at three
01:01:58quarters of a mile because that distance is better for them than seven furlongs.
01:02:02All right.
01:02:02That makes sense.
01:02:03What's the horse Mott did that with a few years ago?
01:02:07He had a filly that he ran in the Breeders' Cup sprint because he didn't think she wanted
01:02:11seven furlongs.
01:02:12Anybody remember her name or remember that incident or that not incident, but that occasion?
01:02:17Not off the top of my head.
01:02:18I probably should.
01:02:19But back to Kopyon.
01:02:20How about the time she ran?
01:02:22121.76, which was faster than Mindframe.
01:02:26Mindframe ran 122.64, and she won by open lengths.
01:02:31A terrific ride by Kazushi Kimura, who was in from California, to ride her.
01:02:36It's ironic, and I'm sure you guys spoke about it on the show as well, that she is
01:02:40the daughter of Omaha Beach, who was famously scratched out of the 2019 Kentucky Derby.
01:02:47Richard Mandela joking after the race that the Kentucky Derby trainers wanted him to
01:02:52get the hell out of there because he had such bad luck at the Derby.
01:02:55They're like, all right, you've won your race, Richard.
01:02:57Just leave.
01:02:58Would you please leave now?
01:03:00That's his first race.
01:03:01He's won at Churchill since 2004.
01:03:05Wow, really?
01:03:07Yes, 2004.
01:03:10So a huge congratulations to Hall of Famer Dick Mandela.
01:03:15And Spendthrift, Kopyon, she was a monster.
01:03:20The TD and Writer's Room brought to you by the Pennsylvania Horse Breeders Association,
01:03:24the PHBA.
01:03:25How about this?
01:03:26The dam of sovereignty crowned was a Pennsylvania bread bought for $1.2 million in Keeneland,
01:03:33September.
01:03:34So like Sheikh Mohammed, you too can breed to a Pennsylvania bread and perhaps get your
01:03:39own classic winner.
01:03:40The 2025 Iroquois Awards are this Friday.
01:03:45That's May the 9th at the Inn in Mendenhall in Chadds Ford, Pennsylvania.
01:03:49At the Iroquois Awards, the 2024 Pennsylvania champions will be honored.
01:03:54Smarty Jones's Hall of Fame induction will be celebrated and longtime horseman and consigner
01:03:59Russell Jones will receive a Lifetime Achievement Award.
01:04:02The guest speaker will be my colleague Donna Barton Brothers of NBC.
01:04:07The PHBA has very kindly reserved a block of hotel rooms at a discounted rate for the
01:04:13Friday night soiree.
01:04:14To book it, you can call 610-388-1181 and ask for the Pennsylvania Horse Breeders Room
01:04:24Rate.
01:04:25And as always, to learn more about the Pennsylvania breeding and racing programs, you can check
01:04:29out the 2025 Stallion and Boarding Farm Directory online at phbread.com or you can call 610-444-1050.
01:04:37PA Bred, I think we've built a brand at this point.
01:04:45It's excitement at every step.
01:04:48Roses for Deborah just set a new track record.
01:04:52On average, for the past decade, Pennsylvania paid over $28 million a year in breeders awards,
01:04:58restricted races and owner bonuses.
01:05:00Plus, PA Bred shined on the world's biggest stage.
01:05:03Just three states have bred more Breeders' Cup winners.
01:05:06Learn more at pabred.com.
01:05:09Well, David Angorda was one of the brightest people in the industry, a bloodsuck agent,
01:05:14the husband to Cherie DeVoe, the terrific young trainer.
01:05:17He wrote an op-ed for the Thoroughbred Daily News.
01:05:21I know, Zoe, you were very interested in this.
01:05:23He made some very good points about the Hall of Fame inductions.
01:05:27And it was a very strange year.
01:05:30There was eight horses on the ballot and seven humans.
01:05:35So 15 total people that could get in.
01:05:38The only one that got in was Smarty Jones.
01:05:40And let's back off a little bit.
01:05:42I want somebody to explain to me why Smarty Jones was never on the ballot before.
01:05:47And then they put him on the ballot.
01:05:48He's the only one out of all this group that gets the 50%.
01:05:52It makes absolutely no sense.
01:05:54I voted for Smarty Jones, however degraced.
01:05:56Here's a trivia question.
01:05:58Who are the only two female horses to win Horse of the Year and are not in the Hall
01:06:03of Fame?
01:06:04It's a little bit of a trick question.
01:06:07Poverty Grace is one of them.
01:06:10Torpedo Hannah.
01:06:12Ah, see, she'll be in the Hall of Fame someday.
01:06:15But I would assume not if she runs like she did in the last election.
01:06:19She has to wait.
01:06:20Doesn't she have to wait five years anyway?
01:06:22Yeah, that's a little bit of a trick question.
01:06:24But anyways.
01:06:25But he said there's no transparency.
01:06:28You don't know what the voting totals are.
01:06:30You don't know who votes.
01:06:32He says there's a lot of people that he knows that are very, very good opinions are very
01:06:37well versed in horse racing that are not voting.
01:06:42And he also brought up the way they do it in the Baseball Hall of Fame, where they announce
01:06:46all the vote totals.
01:06:47And also, I believe if it's a player in the baseball ballot doesn't get 10%, maybe 5%
01:06:54of the vote is one of the other.
01:06:55They're dropped from the ballot for the next year.
01:06:58But, you know, it's a minor little thing.
01:07:00But he's absolutely right.
01:07:02There's not enough.
01:07:03There's no reason for this.
01:07:05I mean, they worried they're going to if somebody got if trainer Joe Blow got six votes, they
01:07:11were they're going to embarrass them.
01:07:12Come on, you know, put on your big boy pants and move on.
01:07:16Let's go.
01:07:17And it's just, you know, it's a lot of the same thing with the Eclipse Awards.
01:07:23The Turf Riders and broadcasters are the only ones that release who voted for who the racing
01:07:29form and Equibase are the track people, whoever the hell that is the other voting category.
01:07:35They do not tell anybody anything.
01:07:38So it's just it's unnecessary.
01:07:41And it would be, you know, very interesting to know, did Smarty Jones, you know, get how
01:07:46many votes did he get?
01:07:47How close did John Sadler come to getting in the Hall of Fame?
01:07:51I'm a tough grader on this.
01:07:53And I voted for four horses.
01:07:54Smarty Jones, excuse me, four people.
01:07:57Smarty Jones, Howard DeGrasse, Ken McBeek and John Sadler, who I cannot believe he's
01:08:01not in the Hall of Fame.
01:08:04But Zoe, I think I made a good point.
01:08:06He made some very, very salient points in his letter.
01:08:10And we do need some transparency.
01:08:12I don't have a clue who votes for the Hall of Fame.
01:08:14I'd love to see the list.
01:08:16How many people actually do vote?
01:08:18Do we have a number?
01:08:19We don't know.
01:08:20That's the thing.
01:08:21So how many people who are they?
01:08:23Who did they vote for?
01:08:24And I honestly do believe we're talking about the racing Hall of Fame that the general public
01:08:30should deserve a vote.
01:08:31There should be a portion of the votes available to the general public and be like, hey, who
01:08:36do you want to vote for?
01:08:37Let's take a percentage of this horse or this person.
01:08:40Pick one.
01:08:42And that should be some of the voting.
01:08:44It's a big deal to get into the Hall of Fame.
01:08:47And a lot of the times it will be nice.
01:08:49I'm delighted Arthur Hancock is going to get in.
01:08:52I'm delighted he's still alive.
01:08:54It should be done while these guys are still alive and can appreciate it rather than wait
01:09:00for the pillars of the turf and they're dead and buried and then finally bring them into
01:09:04the Hall of Fame.
01:09:05Let these guys enjoy it.
01:09:07It's a huge deal to be nominated and then get in.
01:09:10And Gordo is a friend of mine.
01:09:13I mean, he's not only obviously a very experienced horseman.
01:09:17He's an incredibly intelligent guy.
01:09:20I totally agree with his opinion about transparency.
01:09:25I think it should be that way.
01:09:27Having said that, I don't think that the results of the Hall of Fame voting this year really
01:09:35had anything to do with people making dumb votes or anything like that.
01:09:40I think really it's just a factor of so many worthy nominees in the human and the horse
01:09:49categories that the votes were all divided up and no one got the kind of majority that
01:09:57they needed in order to make it into the Hall of Fame.
01:10:01I think they were all victimized by the fact that there were so many worthy candidates.
01:10:06I voted for Smarty Jones as well, but even Smarty Jones, guys, I didn't think was a slam
01:10:12dunk because there were people out there that took an anti-Smarty Jones tack because he
01:10:18was so lightly raced, didn't run at all after the Belmont stakes.
01:10:22And I can't necessarily argue with that.
01:10:24I mean, I voted for him, but I didn't think even Smarty Jones was necessarily a shoo-in.
01:10:31Well, I mean, maybe the solution to that is one of the things we talk about the Baseball
01:10:35Hall of Fame.
01:10:36If you don't, how about this?
01:10:37If you don't get 10% of the vote, you're off the ballot.
01:10:40It's not like you're going to get 10% one year and the next year you're going to get
01:10:4450%.
01:10:45So you're right.
01:10:47The ballot was loaded.
01:10:49That's a very good point, Randy, you made about how they probably just spread the votes
01:10:53apart.
01:10:54Maybe they need a smaller field or something like that.
01:10:59And I'll say this.
01:11:01I voted for foreign horses and people, but there was nobody.
01:11:08This wasn't a year where he had like Chad Brown's first year in eligibility for the
01:11:12Hall of Fame.
01:11:13He's going to be unanimous.
01:11:14He should get in.
01:11:15Even Smarty Jones, I agree with you.
01:11:17Although Majestic Prince, if you look it up, has almost the exact same record as Smarty
01:11:22Jones.
01:11:23And he did get into the Hall of Fame after winning the Derby Preakness and getting hurt
01:11:29in the Belmont and never running again.
01:11:31So there was a precedent to do that.
01:11:33But maybe to cut down on the ballot a little bit and what's wrong with having a ballot
01:11:38with eight or something?
01:11:40Do you really need 18 people and horses on the ballot?
01:11:43And I think you made a great point there.
01:11:46It's time for the first TV work of the week.
01:11:48And it's Vodka With A Twist, who worked five furlongs on Sunday in 59-3, which tied
01:11:54the fastest of 61 works on the day at the distance.
01:11:58Last year's Breeders' Cup Juvenile Phillies runner up, Vodka With A Twist, was most
01:12:02recently third in the Grade 2 Santa Anita Oaks on April 5th when making her sophomore
01:12:08debut.
01:12:08Trainer Phil D'Amato says he's aiming towards the missed Preakness stakes the day
01:12:13before the Preakness.
01:12:18Be a smarter better with First TV.
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01:12:42With First TV.
01:12:47All the thrills.
01:12:51Fraction of the bills.
01:12:55Experience the power of the partnership.
01:13:01Change your life, make new friends, and compete at the highest level of thoroughbred racing.
01:13:06West Point Thoroughbreds, the gold standard in racing partnerships.
01:13:11Visit westpointtb.com.
01:13:14The TD and Riders Room also brought to you by our friends at West Point Thoroughbreds.
01:13:18Sandman didn't quite deliver the result that West Point had hoped for in the Kentucky
01:13:23Derby, but it was a weekend to remember.
01:13:25Nonetheless, for the West Point partners, more than 200 strong turned out between their
01:13:31partners and the families.
01:13:33And a great colt, of course, who captivated a lot of people at the racetrack and beyond.
01:13:37From Thursday night's partner party to braving the rain together Friday and Saturday at Churchill
01:13:43Downs, they wrapped it all up with a special backstretch tour Sunday morning.
01:13:48That's become a West Point tradition.
01:13:50So it was a weekend filled with camaraderie and pride at West Point.
01:13:54A sincere thank you from West Point to Mark Cassie and his team for being such a dream
01:13:59to work with.
01:14:00And speaking of dreams, partner Griffin Johnson, the influencer extraordinaire, was such an
01:14:07ideal ambassador for the sport, sharing his experience with millions of new followers
01:14:13on social media.
01:14:14On to the next chapter now with Sandman potentially in the Belmont Stakes at Saratoga.
01:14:21Well, that's a wrap on this week's post-derby edition of the Thoroughbred Daily News Riders
01:14:26Room podcast.
01:14:27I want to thank my partners, Randy Moss and Zoe Cabman.
01:14:31I want to thank Bill Mott, our Gainesway guest of the week.
01:14:34Also, the people that work behind the scenes and do such a great job, our producers and
01:14:38editors, Sue Finley, Katie Petruniak, Anthony LaRocca, and Aaliyah LaRocca.
01:14:42Well, two weeks ago or a week and a half to go to the Preakness, we'll have plenty to
01:14:45talk about next week as well.
01:14:47Talk to you then.