- 5/20/2025
It will be a busy day at the GI Preakness Stakes for the West Point Thoroughbreds team as they have four horses entered on the day at Pimlico. But none is more important than Sandman (Tapit), a horse they co-own along with DJ Stable, St. Elias Stable and CJ Stables. He finished seventh in the GI Kentucky Derby, but his owners have decided to give him a chance to make amends. Despite there being only being two weeks between the first two legs of the Triple Crown, Sandman will run in Saturday’s Preakness Stakes. To talk about Sandman, the Preakness, the Triple Crown and other subjects, West Point Founder and President Terry Finley joined the team on this week’s TDN Writers’ Room Podcast presented by Keeneland. He was the Gainesway Guest of the Week.
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SportsTranscript
00:00:00For the love of the horse, for generations to come.
00:00:28Welcome to another edition of the TDN Writer's Room Podcast, a pre-preakness edition as a
00:00:33matter of fact.
00:00:34My name is Bill Finley, and I'm a contributor for the Thoroughbred Daily News and also the
00:00:38co-host of the Down the Stretch radio show with Dave Johnson on Sirius XM Radio.
00:00:44My name is Randy...
00:00:45Let's do that again.
00:00:46My name is Randy Moss of NBC Sports.
00:00:49I am here at Pimlico, although you can't tell, I had to make one last trip to the old press
00:00:54box.
00:00:55This is the last time the preakness will be run at this particular facility.
00:00:59Contrast my backdrop in a production trailer with this one.
00:01:03Zoe Cameron here with First Racing and First TV.
00:01:07I was close to Pimlico earlier on today, but myself and Michelle Yu in the background there
00:01:14opted to come to Philadelphia.
00:01:16We found the best Indian restaurant ever.
00:01:19We're at Veda Veda, having a beer.
00:01:23Yes, it's past noon, so that's okay.
00:01:26And we're doing the podcast from here.
00:01:28So if you ever come to Philadelphia and you want some really good Indian food, come to
00:01:32Veda Veda.
00:01:33And Randy, you're going to have to come, seeing as you've never, ever had Indian food.
00:01:36What is wrong with you?
00:01:37What's wrong with you?
00:01:38I like spice.
00:01:39I like spice too.
00:01:40It's no explanation.
00:01:41I just haven't had a chance to go to an Indian restaurant.
00:01:43Well, if you guys ever cover the Pennsylvania Derby, you'll have to go.
00:01:47How about that?
00:01:48There you go.
00:01:49Okay.
00:01:50Well, guys, let's dig into the preakness.
00:01:51It is, of course, the big race this weekend.
00:01:53I thought what we would do is let's, why don't we take half the field now?
00:01:57We'll discuss it horse for horse, take a little break and come back and do the second half
00:02:01of the field.
00:02:03So to me, I mean, obviously journalism is going to be the huge favorite and should be
00:02:08for all the reasons that make sense, especially the buyer figures.
00:02:12So let's start off with number one, goal oriented.
00:02:14Bob Baffert is a trainer.
00:02:15Flavien Pratt will ride.
00:02:17You know, it is a Baffert horse.
00:02:20He's got good form, two for two, but to step up from a non-winners of one allowance race
00:02:25into the preakness, even a preakness that doesn't have that strong of a field, probably
00:02:29pretty tough thing to do, but because it's Baffert, because it's Flavien Pratt, because
00:02:34the race came up kind of light, I wouldn't throw him out and I wouldn't be shocked if
00:02:39he won.
00:02:40Yeah.
00:02:41So Rodriguez was obviously the first choice of the Baffert stable to run in the preakness,
00:02:46but he either clearly is not completely over the foot issue that kept him out of the Kentucky
00:02:52Derby or they felt that the veterinarians might frown upon that.
00:02:56So they are not running Rodriguez and in his place is goal oriented.
00:03:00I share your opinion, Bill.
00:03:02I mean, if it were anyone but Bob Baffert, it would be a very tough take to to like goal
00:03:11oriented, but he has looked good in both his starts.
00:03:16And even though he's coming back in two weeks, he's six to one and I think at least he's
00:03:20in with an outside shot.
00:03:23He comes in with the work as well for Bob.
00:03:25I'm not in love with him and he gets the one hole.
00:03:29He ran very well last time out on the slop at Churchill Downs.
00:03:33He's had a busy Caroline.
00:03:34She was all turf.
00:03:35And if you look through his pedigree, all of his siblings have run on the turf.
00:03:39The only ones of the seven that broke their maidens did it for maiden claiming, maiden
00:03:4330, maiden 75, and the majority of them were tough.
00:03:48So while he ran well at Churchill, we see a propensity for turf horses to run well at
00:03:53Churchill Downs.
00:03:54I'm going to make a stand against goal orientated no matter how good I think he is, because
00:04:00I obviously I'm going to pick journalism on top.
00:04:04Well, I was going to say, I don't think anybody I'd be surprised if anybody took a stand against
00:04:08journalism.
00:04:10This is just handicapping one on one.
00:04:12I mean, what whatever type of handicapper you are, you have to like this horse and have
00:04:17to put them on top unless you just absolutely, you know, have just have no or a complete
00:04:23aversion to betting on favorites.
00:04:24I ran a winning race in the Kentucky Derby, just got beat that day on the fair and square
00:04:30by sovereignty.
00:04:30Before that, San Felipe, Santa Anita Derby.
00:04:34The figures, Randy, you know, if you're going on the buyer numbers, it's almost looks like
00:04:39you can't lose.
00:04:40It's got a one or two or one or two and one away.
00:04:42And I want to commend them for running in the greatness.
00:04:45I mean, Aaron Wellman and team, they were not afraid of the two weeks like so many other
00:04:51trainers were. And I think the end result is they're going to get a classic win out of
00:04:54it just because they showed up.
00:04:57Yeah, I look on paper, it looks like a slam dunk.
00:05:00I mean, the only concern that anyone could have from a handicapping perspective is the
00:05:05two week turnaround.
00:05:07Right. I mean, the last four winners of the Preakness stakes all had longer time between
00:05:13races. None of the last four winners competed in the Kentucky Derby.
00:05:17We all know that back in the day and for a large portion of the last 25 years, horses
00:05:24from the Kentucky Derby have come back and run just fine on two weeks rest in the
00:05:27Preakness. But in most of those situations, they were competing against primarily
00:05:32against other derby horses who were coming back in two weeks with a few exceptions.
00:05:38So that would be the only concern I suppose you could say that I would have about
00:05:43journalism. And I'll say this, if it were my horse, I wouldn't be running him in the
00:05:48Preakness. And and here's why, if if they are intent on turning the tables on
00:05:56sovereignty, let's say in the Belmont stakes, if that's their ultimate goal is to run
00:06:02again against sovereignty at a mile and a quarter in the Belmont and try to beat him
00:06:07and right what they might consider to be wrong.
00:06:11And I think running in the Preakness is not is is a bad move.
00:06:15If they're not intending to go to the Belmont stakes and they're intending maybe to
00:06:20tackle sovereignty a little bit later in the year, let's say the Travers at a mile and a
00:06:24quarter and fine, come back in two weeks in the Preakness.
00:06:28Randy, in your rounds talking to the trainers and the owners, did you ask that
00:06:31question? I assume this horse will not run on the Belmont.
00:06:34I mean, I think that they've set this as their target.
00:06:37I very well I have nothing nothing to go on other than my gut instinct on that.
00:06:41But, you know, the and you're right.
00:06:44I'm sure they want to beat sovereignty, maybe in the Travers, maybe in the Haskell,
00:06:48maybe in the Breeders' Cup Classic.
00:06:49But I just figured this would be it for them for the Triple Crown.
00:06:54Well, let's say there are no trainers here yet at Old Hilltop.
00:06:58They're getting in late this afternoon or tomorrow or maybe even later.
00:07:02But you can bet your bottom dollar I will be asking that question as soon as I see
00:07:05Michael McCarthy. Well, I mean, there's one Hall of Fame trainer there.
00:07:10Coach was out on his pony this morning in the pissing rain.
00:07:13So coach is there and he has been holding court all week long.
00:07:19Journalism by far the horse to beat in here.
00:07:22I could see them running in the Belmont as well.
00:07:24He's a big, strong, imposing horse.
00:07:26It really depends on how he bounces back off these two weeks rest and horses will
00:07:31fool you into doing really well.
00:07:33You don't know until you run them how well they're going to come out of it, because
00:07:36watching from the videos that I've seen of him training at Churchill Downs, he
00:07:40looks exactly the same coming out of the race as he looked going in, which is
00:07:46bloody good. He looks amazing.
00:07:48So I'm wishing them the best of luck and I commend them for running.
00:07:52I really do. And, you know, maybe in a few years we're going to be talking about
00:07:55Moppetism and what a broodmare she is.
00:07:57This is the first fall.
00:07:59First falls are usually like a small versions, but they're usually not big strapping
00:08:04imposing horses for a first fall out of Moppetism by Kerlin.
00:08:08The other ones have looked just as good as he did as a yearling.
00:08:11So I'm really excited about her chances as a broodmare as well.
00:08:15I want to follow up on one thing you said.
00:08:18We won't be spending as much time on the other horses, but you pointed out that a lot
00:08:23of times you can't tell how much a race takes out of a horse.
00:08:26Wayne Lucas told me that a long time ago.
00:08:30He said the better a horse is, the harder it is to gauge how much a race took out of
00:08:37it. And jockeys will tell you, Jerry Bailey will tell you that oftentimes he wouldn't
00:08:41know until the quarter pole when he really asked the horse to run.
00:08:44Because Lucas said the very best horses love their work.
00:08:47They're always eager.
00:08:49They always, in his words, meet you at the front of the stall webbing in the morning.
00:08:54And so you don't know.
00:08:56They always look great.
00:08:57They're always very aggressive and wanting to do their job, but it doesn't always end
00:09:04that well. All right, we'll move along.
00:09:06Number three, speaking of Wayne Lucas, American Promise is a three horse coming out of
00:09:11the Lucas stable.
00:09:13You know, I've learned over the years not to underestimate Wayne.
00:09:16He's pulled off a lot of wins with big long shots, including Oxbow in this very race.
00:09:22But the horse won a very weak run into the Virginia Derby, had a big purse, but it
00:09:28didn't attract a very good field.
00:09:30And then I see that a racing forum comment says he was bumped, but he was early up on
00:09:37the pace and then just backed up and got beat thirty eight and a half lengths.
00:09:41And Lucas is the opposite of some of the other people.
00:09:45You knew he'd be right back in the pregnancy.
00:09:47And he's not he doesn't miss too many dances.
00:09:49But I see no reason why this horse should be.
00:09:55I suppose he could be a contender, but I see no reason why this horse could possibly win.
00:10:03He'd have to be hard pressed and run the race of his life.
00:10:06I'm glad he's in there because it's always good to have a coach and old hilltop was that
00:10:10was they tied Bob and coach for pregnancy has one more now.
00:10:16I've got my, you know, my research and Michelle, you behind me saying Bob has one more
00:10:21than coach. So maybe coach can try and type up.
00:10:23Thank you, Michelle, for that.
00:10:26Bob has eight and and coach has seven, I will make this prediction, American promise will
00:10:31run better in the Preakness than he did in the Kentucky Derby.
00:10:34How's that for going out on a limb?
00:10:36Well, that's not saying much.
00:10:38Randy, that was a joke.
00:10:41No 38 and a half points in the Kentucky Derby.
00:10:46Yeah, if he just gets a better ride in the Preakness.
00:10:50Right. I don't think the trouble early cost him all that much.
00:10:54What really cost him was rushing up into a hot place between horses going down the
00:11:01backside. I mean, talk about pressing the gas a little too early there.
00:11:05But yeah, he should run better.
00:11:07But I agree that I don't think he's he's probably not good enough.
00:11:11So I want to ask you, I mean, Lucas and a lot of his major horses has been using like
00:11:16really unheralded jockeys.
00:11:19Nick Juarez is a terrific guy.
00:11:20He rides down at Monmouth.
00:11:22But, you know, Lucas seems to have a sort of affinity for these blue collar riders.
00:11:27And I'm not really sure where that came from in his absolute prime.
00:11:31I mean, it was Chris McCarran, Gary Stevens and, you know, whoever else was third and
00:11:37fourth in the standings at Santa Anita.
00:11:39Good for him. Nick Juarez is a good guy.
00:11:41He's a good jockey. But it is kind of strange to see the the association of these two of
00:11:47these two people.
00:11:49Well, you literally just answered your own question there, Bill, when you said Gary
00:11:53Stevens, because Gary Stevens has the book for Nick Juarez.
00:11:58And usually we've heard coach say he only dates his jockeys.
00:12:01He doesn't marry them. Usually Nick would probably be off this horse off a ride like
00:12:06that. But him and Gary Stevens are pretty tight and he's keeping Nick on because, yes,
00:12:11he does. It's usually just a one night stand for dear old D-Wayne.
00:12:15Right. All right.
00:12:16Well, that's a good explanation.
00:12:18All right. We move on to the foreign shipper Heart of Honor coming in for trainer Jamie
00:12:23Osborne. Last time out ran in the UAE Derby second by a nose.
00:12:28And that's the good news.
00:12:30The bad news is he was beaten by admire Daytona, who was last in the Kentucky Derby.
00:12:36So I got to think.
00:12:37And Randy, I know you were talking about trying to figure out a speed figure for this
00:12:40race. And you thought it was if you could put one on there, it would be very slow just
00:12:47based on the how poorly admire Daytona ran.
00:12:51I can't see him.
00:12:52He's he's a European based horse, but he's been doing almost all his running over in
00:12:58Dubai. It's going to be a great story, right?
00:13:01The Osborne family, Safi Osborne, 23 years old, the daughter riding the daughter of the
00:13:06trainer. But you talked about figures.
00:13:10I mean, the UAE Derby came up 20 points slower on the buyer's scale than the Dubai
00:13:15World Cup. So to figure out what you give a hit show and mix toe in the Dubai World
00:13:20Cup, subtract 20 from that and it's not a particularly good number.
00:13:26Admire Daytona just basically proved that the way you walk in the Derby.
00:13:30So I can't like this horse.
00:13:33I'm with you, Randy.
00:13:35He really needs to step up, maybe being on a different track.
00:13:39Maybe he'll he'll wake up.
00:13:41He's only run at Southern Maydan.
00:13:43I'd like to have seen some better form coming in, but I'm not sure he's ever been worse
00:13:48than second. How much better he could possibly be.
00:13:52He's looked good arriving, wishing Safi.
00:13:55Safi's a good little rider, wishing her the best of luck.
00:13:57Looks like it's probably going to be a sloppy track.
00:13:59I hope she practices with the goggles because myself and Michelle were talking about that
00:14:03this morning. She won't have ridden in the mud before.
00:14:06Where would she have ever possibly ridden in the mud?
00:14:09She's going to have six pairs of goggles on.
00:14:11She better be clear or practice pulling one down at a time.
00:14:14Because when I first started my first day in the mud, I went down the backside and was
00:14:18trying to be cute and pulled one goggle down.
00:14:21I pulled them all down and I was in the middle of the track, turning my homes.
00:14:25I couldn't see a damn thing.
00:14:27So she's going to need to practice that.
00:14:31Did you admit to the trainer after the race?
00:14:34Oh, yeah, for sure.
00:14:35They're like, where are you going?
00:14:37I actually won the race, but I was in the middle of the track.
00:14:39They're like, where the hell are you going?
00:14:40And I couldn't see. I couldn't see.
00:14:43So, yeah, there you go.
00:14:47All right. Let's move on to Pay Billy.
00:14:49Other than a great name for a horse, you get this horse type of horse every single
00:14:54year in the Preakness, the one who wins the Maryland preps.
00:14:57He's won the last two of the Federico Tessio in the private terms.
00:15:01Federico Tessio is a win in your in race for the Preakness.
00:15:06The local mid-Atlantic guy, Michael Gorm, stable.
00:15:10This horse has been working on Delaware Park, but before that he was based at Laurel.
00:15:14But he's been running against a completely different set of horses.
00:15:19Horses that, you know, are not nearly up to par with the journalisms of the world.
00:15:24So, yeah, I wouldn't put him on any kind of tickets.
00:15:28I just think it's much too much to ask.
00:15:30Yeah, I agree.
00:15:31One of the owners has a relative or a friend or associate or whatever named Billy, who
00:15:36loves to play poker.
00:15:37And every time Billy takes the pot, he says, Pay Billy.
00:15:42I love that.
00:15:44That's where the horse's name comes from.
00:15:45But I think he's over his head as well.
00:15:48I love that.
00:15:50He's a local horse running here.
00:15:51He's proven at a mile and eight.
00:15:53They'll get the distance, that's for sure.
00:15:56He's by improbable.
00:15:57He won going a mile and a quarter.
00:15:59Michael Gorm, a local trainer, wins an awful lot of races.
00:16:01So wishing the connections the best of luck.
00:16:04And they're going to try and keep his face clean, I would imagine.
00:16:07He's got some speed there.
00:16:08Well, we'll have to see how fast he can really go compared to some of these.
00:16:13All right.
00:16:13So that's five of the first of the nine horses in the Preakness.
00:16:17We'll have to have the other four for you right after these messages.
00:16:23The TDN Writers Room is brought to you by Keeneland.
00:16:26And Hill Road reminded us why we shot a Keeneland September
00:16:30with an impressive stretch run to take down the Peter Pan Stakes last weekend.
00:16:35Trainer Chad Brown said he will head to the June the 7th Grade 1
00:16:38Belmont Stakes at Saratoga.
00:16:41This year's Keeneland sale takes place from September the 8th
00:16:44through the 20th.
00:16:45Make plans to attend.
00:16:48It all comes down to this.
00:16:50Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
00:16:51The moment that defines the year when the world's most influential buyers gather
00:16:58and every decision, every bid, every opportunity shapes the future
00:17:04at a marketplace that brings the thoroughbred world together
00:17:08and where futures are forged because every moment matters.
00:17:14At the World's Yearling Sale, Keeneland September.
00:17:19This week's fastest horse of the week brought to you by Heartland,
00:17:23one of the fast sires at Windstar Farm.
00:17:25One career start for Heartland and one fast win.
00:17:30A five and a half for a long maiden special.
00:17:32103.20 faster than any race,
00:17:37any maiden race at Delmar or at Saratoga that year.
00:17:41And Heartland has the pedigree to match.
00:17:43She's a son of just a guy and is a half brother to champion two year old
00:17:47and great one sire, Classic Empire.
00:17:50Over at Windstar, Heartland's fee is $10,000.
00:17:53And interested breeders should call now for special late season incentives.
00:18:00Now the fastest horse of the week ran Saturday at Aqueduct
00:18:04in the Man O' War Stakes at Amylum 3-8.
00:18:06Another win for Farbridge, his fourth victory in his last five starts.
00:18:11He wins the Man O' War ranked over Anglophile Farbridge,
00:18:16owned by the LSU Staple Street by Christophe Clement.
00:18:20Farbridge now has eight wins from 16 lifetime starts.
00:18:24Career earnings now over $2 million.
00:18:26Meyers speed figure 99 for Farbridge in the Man O' War.
00:18:31Our fastest horse of the week.
00:18:38So let's go now to the rest of the field.
00:18:41And River Thames, River Thames is an interesting horse.
00:18:45I'm sure he'll get some play because of Todd Pletcher and Irod Ortiz.
00:18:49The I'm trying to figure out, though, what what Pletcher was thinking.
00:18:54He covets the Kentucky Derby.
00:18:56The horse had the points to get in.
00:18:58And he said he needs a little more time.
00:19:01And then they decided to go to the Preakness.
00:19:04Todd Pletcher hates the Preakness.
00:19:06He's only run in ten times.
00:19:09And he's 0 for 10 in the Preakness.
00:19:11Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me why they did this and going in this race.
00:19:17He's a good horse.
00:19:19The Bluegrass did not the horses did not really distinguish themselves
00:19:23in the Kentucky Derby, but he ran a sharp third there.
00:19:27Definitely a contender.
00:19:28Somebody's got to run second behind journalism.
00:19:31But again, it is that whole Pletcher Preakness thing
00:19:35just kind of baffles me a little bit.
00:19:38All right. I don't think Todd hates the Preakness.
00:19:41I think he hates running horses back in two weeks.
00:19:45If you look at the if you look at the last five years, go to Formulator
00:19:49and DRF and look at his total number of starters, I think it's 5000 something.
00:19:53And then you you you query how many horses have run back in two weeks or less.
00:19:59OK, zero point four percent. Wow.
00:20:04He hates running horses back in two weeks, which is why
00:20:07he has an 0 for 10 record in the Preakness and his best horses
00:20:10skip the Preakness and wait for the Belmont.
00:20:12This particular horse, I'll also tell you why he didn't run in the Kentucky Derby.
00:20:15He's a son of McLean's music.
00:20:17He has a sprint pedigree.
00:20:20He has trained and raced so far
00:20:24as if he is capable of outrunning that pedigree in terms of distance.
00:20:29But the ownership and maybe Todd as well felt like the mile and a quarter,
00:20:34a stiffly paced mile and a quarter of the Kentucky Derby
00:20:39might be a little bit too much for him from a pedigree perspective.
00:20:43So they decided to skip the Derby and wait for the Preakness.
00:20:46Are we really buying that?
00:20:48The Derby's the Derby. Come on, Randy.
00:20:51Are we really going to drink that Kool-Aid?
00:20:53I'm not drinking it.
00:20:55All right. So what's your opinion?
00:20:57I'm there must have been another reason.
00:20:59That's all I'm saying.
00:21:02And here he is.
00:21:03So you have to like him by McLean's music out of discreet cap.
00:21:08Mary ran sovereignty to a neck last time.
00:21:11He's a must use in the top three for me, River Thames.
00:21:15But I'm not using him right underneath journalism.
00:21:17We're going to get to that horse in just a moment.
00:21:19But he's certainly lied.
00:21:20And you're getting Iran Ortiz, who was born in the bluegrass.
00:21:24I can't believe he drank that Kool-Aid.
00:21:28We move on to Sandman now.
00:21:30Surprised that after the Kentucky Derby, they were adamant
00:21:34that they were going to skip the Preakness and go right to the Belmont.
00:21:37I'm wondering if they just saw this as a fairly easy spot
00:21:41to win a race with a two million dollar purse and whatnot.
00:21:44I don't know what to do.
00:21:45I pick this horse every single time he runs.
00:21:48And he he's in he's so erratic.
00:21:52Last time out in the Kentucky Derby, I know he is bumped around
00:21:55a little bit and all that.
00:21:56But I mean, he got beat a long, long way.
00:22:00If he runs back to his Arkansas Derby, which I know, Randy,
00:22:03you weren't that high on in the first place.
00:22:06He I suppose you'd be a contender, but I'm done with this horse.
00:22:09I picked him 18 times and he never wins for me.
00:22:12So forget about it.
00:22:13Yeah, I don't buy any excuse
00:22:16that I've heard for Sandman in the Kentucky Derby.
00:22:19He didn't get a bad trip.
00:22:20He got a very good trip, actually.
00:22:22He was way back in the pack, but he was right there by sovereignty
00:22:25where he kind of needed to be.
00:22:28He was, I think, about a length or a length and a quarter behind sovereignty
00:22:33going in to the second turn, coming out of the turn.
00:22:37He was about eight behind sovereignty.
00:22:40Sovereignty left Sandman behind
00:22:44around the second turn with that turn of foot and Sandman had no answer.
00:22:49And I can't blame it on the sloppy track.
00:22:52The top three finishers all handled the footing exceptionally well.
00:22:55Wasn't the kickback.
00:22:56He was outside following, trying to follow sovereignty around the turn.
00:23:01He just got outrun.
00:23:02And so I can't really be confident in him coming back in two weeks
00:23:08in this spot.
00:23:09Maybe he's always opinion.
00:23:11He's vying to become the fifth grade to win the preakness.
00:23:14Four gray horses have won the preakness.
00:23:16You know what they say about the grand homage.
00:23:18He's going to take a lot of money by tapping out of the distorted humor.
00:23:22Humor, man.
00:23:23You should love it.
00:23:23He didn't love it in the Kentucky Derby.
00:23:25It was sloppy that day.
00:23:27There's going to be a lot of people asking about his feet.
00:23:29He was there.
00:23:31There's a picture that surfaced of him training in these fancy
00:23:34gluon shoes, which, you know, that's that's never a big plus
00:23:38when you have to switch shoes coming in.
00:23:39Perhaps we can ask Terry Finley about that a little bit later
00:23:43about the gluon shoes that he's been spotted wearing.
00:23:46But for me, coming back that quickly for Sandman,
00:23:49you know what Cassie says, run them when they're good.
00:23:51So I guess you have to take Cassie's word for it.
00:23:54But I am not using him in my top three.
00:23:59All right. Clever again is the eight horse going out for Steve Asmussen.
00:24:03And I almost picked this horse as a wise guy horse.
00:24:08But I said, come on, he is he good enough to beat journalism?
00:24:11Well, I
00:24:14you're having a good time there.
00:24:15So thank you.
00:24:20But he's he's got to figure a one on one
00:24:23buyer that puts him in the ballpark of
00:24:28of journalism, sorry, who ran a one or two in the derby.
00:24:32And also, Randy, it looks like he's the lone speed in the race.
00:24:35Less goal oriented shoots out of the gate,
00:24:38which I'm not sure that's going to be their plan.
00:24:42You know what? I wouldn't be the least bit surprised.
00:24:45I think this horse is clearly the horse with the best chance to be
00:24:50the favorite. There's your exact.
00:24:52Yeah. Right.
00:24:55Clever. Absolutely.
00:24:56With bells on clever again for me by American Pharaoh out of a Galileo man.
00:25:02He ran super in the hot springs.
00:25:04This is where Jose Ortiz lands.
00:25:07The reason he's not on Sam and obviously wouldn't be on Sam
00:25:10and because it was the late decision to go in.
00:25:12Steve Asmussen has been pointing for this race.
00:25:15He's got speed to burn.
00:25:17And he is, of course, the beat for journalism without question.
00:25:22It's interesting, too.
00:25:23He has an all turf pedigree, American Pharaoh out of a Galileo mayor
00:25:27that says turf on both sides.
00:25:29But he certainly is running. Thank you, my dear.
00:25:32I'm getting served to.
00:25:33Cheers. Cheers. I'll tell you later. We said hi.
00:25:38All right. Lastly, we go to the nine horse
00:25:41of Gosker trained by Brendan Walsh.
00:25:44He'd won the Lexington stakes.
00:25:46Wouldn't have had enough points off that to get into the derby.
00:25:50So I'm sure that they just made this plan B.
00:25:53I have no knocks on this horse.
00:25:55He's two for three lifetime.
00:25:57Brendan Walsh is a terrific trainer.
00:25:58Luis Saez is a terrific jockey.
00:26:01From a buyer standpoint, though, pretty slow.
00:26:04Eighty seven. Eighty eight.
00:26:05That's not going to get it done.
00:26:07I guess the question is, can he improve ten buyer points?
00:26:10And even maybe that won't be good enough.
00:26:12But so I don't I don't love him, but at least he's been showing good form
00:26:16and did win a great three stakes last time.
00:26:19Trainer Brendan Walsh at East Avenue for the derby at Gosker
00:26:22now lined up for the Preakness.
00:26:24He's going to have to improve sharply, but he's likely raced.
00:26:27And it's it's always a possibility that he will improve.
00:26:30But he got a really good trip, I thought, when he won the Lexington.
00:26:32And it's going to be hard, I think, to show that much improvement
00:26:37off of a race where he had that good of a trip.
00:26:40I'm going to use him in my
00:26:42vertical wagers by Nyquist out of a Tampic man.
00:26:46Brendan, a very, very good trainer.
00:26:48I'm not worried that he's light on numbers and light on seasoning.
00:26:51You can only beat who he's beaten.
00:26:53So that's a go for me, especially with science.
00:26:56And he's got some tactical speed.
00:26:59Randy, how would you bet this race?
00:27:01How would I bet the race?
00:27:03Well, it kind of depends on what price journalism is going to be.
00:27:06He's eight to five in the program.
00:27:08I have a sneaking suspicion he's going to be more like six to five
00:27:12or something like that when it runs.
00:27:14And I could never condone betting a horse to win.
00:27:17That's eight to five or lower.
00:27:19So in that point, at that point, then you have to look at at the exotics.
00:27:24And I would key clever again underneath journalism.
00:27:27And I would also play.
00:27:29I would also flip it actually and play clever again on top of journalism,
00:27:33just in case the two weeks as journalism may be a little bit more dull
00:27:38than he was in the derby.
00:27:40I would definitely agree with you.
00:27:42I actually have 11 to one on journalism.
00:27:45There was a preakness future wager.
00:27:48Wow. So, yeah, I have journalism.
00:27:52So rooting for journalism.
00:27:55The TV and writers room brought to you by the Pennsylvania
00:27:58Readers Association, a.k.a.
00:28:00the PHBA, Pennsylvania held that banquet for its annual champions on Friday.
00:28:06We sort of teased it for you last week.
00:28:08Donna Brothers was the special guest speaker.
00:28:11Russell Jones was honored with a Lifetime Achievement Award.
00:28:15The divisional Pennsylvania bred winners included Caprice,
00:28:19the boy's warrior, Carmelina, Uncle Heavy, Roses for Deborah, Our Shot,
00:28:23I'm Very Busy, Don't Look Back at All, Smooth Bee, Central Rose
00:28:27and the Pennsylvania Horse of the Year.
00:28:29Drumroll, please.
00:28:31Older female and turf female Nisi Marie.
00:28:35And of course, there was a special tribute to Pennsylvania's
00:28:38newest member of the Hall of Fame.
00:28:40The only new contemporary member of the Hall of Fame.
00:28:44And that would be Marty Jones.
00:28:46To learn how to breed your very own Pennsylvania champion,
00:28:50you can look at the 2025 Stallion and Boarding Farm
00:28:52Directory online at PABRED.com or you can call 610-444-1050.
00:29:03PABRED, I think we've built a brand at this point.
00:29:07It's excitement at every step.
00:29:10Roses for Deborah just set a new track record.
00:29:14On average, for the past decade, Pennsylvania paid over 28 million
00:29:18a year in Breeders' Awards, restricted races and owner bonuses.
00:29:22Plus, PABRED shine on the world's biggest stage.
00:29:25Just three states have bred more Breeders' Cup winners.
00:29:28Learn more at PABRED.com.
00:29:32On this week's edition of First Things First,
00:29:34I caught up with the winner of the Siren Lewis States.
00:29:38Back-to-back wins in the Siren law for trainer Liberado Barochio.
00:29:41Last year with the chestnut and this year with this cool dude,
00:29:45Lovesick Blues, he picks up his first stakes win today.
00:29:48Oh, wow. You know what?
00:29:49I knew he was, you know, getting better and better.
00:29:51He came off that layoff and he ran a great race.
00:29:53And then last time he ran a great race.
00:29:55Some good horses. And this time I had some confidence today.
00:29:58I don't know. I don't want to sound backdoshes,
00:29:59but I felt good about him today.
00:30:01And I told my friends and I said, you know what?
00:30:03I'm going to win. I'm going to win.
00:30:04I'm going to win. I'm going to win.
00:30:05I'm going to win. I'm going to win.
00:30:06And I told my friends and I just want to thank the good Lord above
00:30:09and Nick Alexander for just being such a great breeder
00:30:11and allowing me to buy this horse from him.
00:30:13I'm just thankful.
00:30:14Well, he really is a cool dude.
00:30:16Can you tell us some of his idiosyncrasies?
00:30:19Because he just seems to just strut around like a dude.
00:30:22Yeah, you know, he's a little tough to handle if you don't know him,
00:30:27but he knows he's the best horse and he struts like that.
00:30:29And he shows the way he looked today.
00:30:31He's dappled out.
00:30:32I had a feeling like, oh, he's doing too good right now.
00:30:34He's acting like he's going to run a big one.
00:30:36And Giovanni Franco gave him a great ride.
00:30:39Wow.
00:30:39I got a little nervous when the favorite brand or brand was out there.
00:30:43I thought, oh, and then Giovanni was just impatient.
00:30:45And then when he showed up at home, I knew he was going to close.
00:30:46So I was confident, praying hard, and it happened.
00:30:49Lovesick Blues takes the Siren Law.
00:30:51Well done.
00:30:52Thank you very much.
00:30:58Many thanks to Liberato there.
00:30:59A really good guy.
00:31:00And imagine winning that race in back-to-back years
00:31:03with two different horses.
00:31:05Do want to remind you that Santa Anita does continue racing.
00:31:08I can assure you it'll be fast, firm, and sunny on Friday
00:31:12as we do have a pick-six carryover.
00:31:14Over $94,000 will be in the kitty.
00:31:17That does start in race number four, a nine-race card,
00:31:20which will start at 1 p.m.
00:31:22Do join us on Saturday.
00:31:24Gates will open early for Preakness Wagering.
00:31:27We'll also have a classic car show on the infield.
00:31:30So come on out to Santa Anita and you can watch and wager
00:31:33on the Preakness, guys.
00:31:36Welcome in now, our Gainesway Guests of the Week.
00:31:38It's Terry Finley, the head of the West Point Thoroughbreds Stable.
00:31:41And it's going to be a big weekend for them at Pimlico.
00:31:44Have several starters in, but the one that everybody is going to be
00:31:47paying attention to is Sandman, who's running in the Preakness.
00:31:51And Terry, after the Kentucky Derby, Mark Cassie was pretty clear
00:31:55that the decision was going to be, we're going right to the Belmont,
00:31:59which is what most people now do.
00:32:01What changed?
00:32:02Why are you guys running in the Preakness?
00:32:05Yeah, I think Bill, you know, he obviously saw him all week.
00:32:09I didn't really know.
00:32:10I was at a horse show on Saturday with my daughter, Erin.
00:32:15And I came, I didn't take my, I didn't take my cell into the ring.
00:32:20And I came back in my car and I had two missed calls from Mark Cassie.
00:32:23So I said, either this is going to be really good or actually really bad,
00:32:27or we're going to the Preakness.
00:32:29And I was really glad to hear that we were going to the Preakness.
00:32:31But I think he just felt like it was a spot as everything developed.
00:32:36And obviously the Derby winner not coming.
00:32:39So I think he put two and two together.
00:32:41And I look at the really top end horsemen across the country,
00:32:45and I think there are people that don't mind changing their mind.
00:32:48And, you know, he's a Hall of Famer and Mark Cassie we trust.
00:32:54So I got a two-part follow-up question here for you.
00:32:58And it may be so subjective that you can't really answer it.
00:33:00But do you think if sovereignty was running in the Preakness,
00:33:05that journalism would be less likely to be running?
00:33:09Or do you think it would make no difference?
00:33:12That's part one of my question.
00:33:13What do you think?
00:33:15I think it would make a difference.
00:33:17I really do.
00:33:17I think he ran, you know, both of the top two, they ran really, really well.
00:33:22So, you know, not for me to decide to manage anybody else's horse.
00:33:29But yes, I think it would make a difference.
00:33:31I think it would have come in to their decision-making.
00:33:36I'm not sure if it would have impacted in enough of a way
00:33:41that would have changed their decision.
00:33:42But it would have factored in a decent amount.
00:33:46And part two, I talked about this a little bit earlier on the podcast.
00:33:51I would think that you really want another crack at sovereignty at a mile and a quarter.
00:33:58I would think that if you're running in the Preakness,
00:34:00that would make running in the Belmont Stakes less likely.
00:34:06And maybe you would try to get another crack at him later in the year
00:34:09in the Haskell or the Travers or the Breeders' Cup Classic.
00:34:12What are your thoughts on that?
00:34:13Yeah, I think that assumption is really solid overall, Randy.
00:34:20But, you know, you never know.
00:34:21I mean, things change.
00:34:23And if he runs big on Saturday, I think there should be a movement.
00:34:30And we'll give it plenty of thought.
00:34:31Ultimately, Mark will make the decision.
00:34:33But I think there'll be a pretty good shot if we show up on Saturday
00:34:37to come back in a couple of weeks.
00:34:40Hey, Terry.
00:34:41How are you?
00:34:42Hello, Zoe.
00:34:44It's always good to see you.
00:34:45Where are you?
00:34:46It looks fabulous.
00:34:47I am at Pimlico.
00:34:49We were just over at the Breeze Show.
00:34:51Obviously, they delayed it by a day.
00:34:53But we went to Michael's.
00:34:55We had our first crab cake.
00:34:56We broke our maiden down here, as we do every year over at Michael's.
00:35:00And we're ready to go.
00:35:01We've got the Breeze Show tomorrow and all the activities that surround the Preakness.
00:35:05So it's a great week.
00:35:07Well, like any good woman, I brought my best shoes to the Preakness.
00:35:10And it looks like Sandman may have brought his as well.
00:35:13Can you talk to us about the fancy shoes he's wearing?
00:35:17Are they Horton shoes?
00:35:18What are they called?
00:35:19Yeah, they are.
00:35:20And I had a discussion with Mark about that.
00:35:22Obviously, he trains the horse and is the manager.
00:35:26So I think he was an early adopter of that shoe.
00:35:31And he's been very, very happy with it.
00:35:33And I think it's really starting to spread across the industry.
00:35:36I think it's a combination of the horsemanship and technology that went into the design
00:35:44and the development of that shoe.
00:35:47I'm hearing good things about the shoe overall.
00:35:49That's for sure.
00:35:51And obviously, no one would notice a shoe.
00:35:55What is it about the shoe that caught your attention?
00:35:59It's a glue-on shoe.
00:36:01So it's a glue-on shoe with good pads.
00:36:03So comfortable shoes, which obviously, they'll switch out for the Preakness into whatever
00:36:08shoes he needs to run in, depending on what kind of track William will get, correct?
00:36:13Yeah.
00:36:14So I think the other thing is, when you see a horse with those shoes on, it's obvious,
00:36:18right?
00:36:19Because they're not just underneath.
00:36:21They kind of come up to the side.
00:36:22So it's one that you're going to notice in a heartbeat when you just look at their feet,
00:36:27Randy.
00:36:28So kind of like Zoey's shoes.
00:36:29OK.
00:36:30Flash Jordans.
00:36:33I'm in Wellies right now.
00:36:37Terry, one of the stories this year in the Triple Crown, as it has been in the last many
00:36:42years, is the defection of the Derby winner.
00:36:45Thank goodness for you and journalism coming in.
00:36:47I think that adds some mojo to the race.
00:36:50But we have a Triple Crown series now where it's just not anything like it was 20 years
00:36:56ago.
00:36:57And Randy and I, and I think Zoey, are all on the same page that we need to space these
00:37:03races out further.
00:37:04What's your opinion on that?
00:37:06I've evolved, which I think, you know, we all try to be smart about things like this.
00:37:11And I try to stay away from people that are absolutely against evolving in their thoughts
00:37:19and their outlooks.
00:37:20And I've evolved here.
00:37:22I really didn't think it was the right thing to do.
00:37:24But looking at the last couple of years and knowing that if we went to the beginning of
00:37:32June, Bill, and the beginning of July, if that can be done, I'd love to hear from Naira
00:37:36in particular.
00:37:39But it would only add a couple weeks, right?
00:37:42Instead of it being a five-week series, it would be an eight-week series.
00:37:46And I don't think that puts us in a position where we lose all.
00:37:50I think, obviously, it would take a change.
00:37:53And we need people and the public that follows our game to adapt to that change of schedule.
00:38:03But understand and acknowledge that there are very valid reasons on really both sides
00:38:10of the question.
00:38:12But ultimately, it's time for our game to change.
00:38:16And we know that we don't run our horses as much.
00:38:19And we know that if we don't change, I think this will happen again and again and again.
00:38:25And when you have something happen that you don't like but isn't really great for the
00:38:32game, I think we, as people who are in the game and that have a voice, we need to step
00:38:40up as a group and say, this should be changed.
00:38:45We need to go in another direction.
00:38:48So I know it's not a black and white issue.
00:38:50But if I had total autonomy to do what I wanted, I would change.
00:38:54But as I said, that's evolved over the last couple of years.
00:38:59So I'm clearly not where Zoe is.
00:39:02And this is only coffee.
00:39:03But I'll drink to that, Terry.
00:39:04I'll drink to that.
00:39:06Thank you very much.
00:39:07I want to talk to you about Griffin Johnson.
00:39:09You know, when we were watching the Derby and doing the Derby, everybody was having
00:39:14the Derby parties or whatever.
00:39:15It was clear that Sandman was getting a whole lot of love at the betting windows, right?
00:39:22He deserved to.
00:39:23He won the Arkansas Derby.
00:39:24But even more so than Sovereignty and some of the other horses that also figured to get
00:39:29some support.
00:39:30And then my daughter, I've got a 22-year-old daughter, Hallie, who's like most 22-year-olds,
00:39:35real big into social media, TikTok and Instagram.
00:39:39And she's like, Dad, it's Griffin Johnson.
00:39:41It's social media.
00:39:43It's been exploding the last couple of years at the Kentucky Derby.
00:39:47And influencers are going there and everything.
00:39:50What was the experience like with Griffin, who we had on the podcast?
00:39:54And I think he's just an outstanding young man.
00:39:57Yeah, well, he was he was a powerful force overall, Randy.
00:40:01I think we all saw it.
00:40:03And, you know, you can't really have somebody parachute in the week of the Derby and right
00:40:10throw some things up on social media and expect that storm that we had over the last
00:40:15couple of weeks.
00:40:16You have to have somebody who's really dedicated, who's into into the process and has been there
00:40:23for a sustained period of time.
00:40:25So I think about I think about Griffin.
00:40:28He joined the ownership group last spring after we bought this colt at the OBS sale,
00:40:33and he's been really involved at every step of the way.
00:40:37And I think about the times where we didn't run well and he was still upbeat and he still
00:40:45wanted to learn and kind of explore, you know, the fields and the races and the strategy
00:40:51and the rides and everything else.
00:40:52So I think very quickly I saw like this influencer was really different from the others that
00:40:59I've experienced and that I've I was aware of.
00:41:02So, look, I've said it to a couple of people.
00:41:08There's a reason why he's come into our industry.
00:41:11I think it's providence, but our job now is to take advantage of it.
00:41:17Right.
00:41:17He he wants to stay.
00:41:20We're going to get him another horse.
00:41:21I mean, he's forced me to give him another horse, which is fine.
00:41:25And gosh, he just he's so he's so motivated.
00:41:30And I think I think today he said something to me.
00:41:32We're at lunch over at Michael's and he said, influencers, they can make a big difference
00:41:37and they have.
00:41:40Right.
00:41:40But he said, this is the first time I've been in a situation and I've been affiliated with
00:41:46an industry that I've really, really been passionate about.
00:41:50And if you think about that, it's one thing, right, to promote a juice can that's in the
00:41:567-Eleven, in the freezer or the refrigerator.
00:41:59It's another to be immersed into an exciting world like Thoroughbred Racing.
00:42:06And I think he's captivated.
00:42:07And I think that authenticity right has really converted a lot of his followers into into
00:42:15people who are going to take a look at our game in the in the months and the years going
00:42:21forward.
00:42:22So he's a difference maker.
00:42:25I'll say that.
00:42:26Well, I'm sold.
00:42:28Is he really as nice as he seems?
00:42:30Because I've drunk the Kool-Aid.
00:42:32He's easy on the eyes.
00:42:34He seems like a great guy.
00:42:36Yes, he's easy on the eyes, Randy.
00:42:37He's a good looking kid.
00:42:38I'm way too old.
00:42:39Oh, I agree with you, Zoe, I agree with you.
00:42:42He's a very handsome young man.
00:42:43And it seems like he absolutely loves horses.
00:42:47All the stuff he did with Sandman, who I'm sure is going to bite him one of these days.
00:42:50I love the ice bucket challenge.
00:42:52Sitting in the ice bucket for 20 minutes.
00:42:54I mean, hey, I thought like that was amazing, but it's just been so much fun to watch.
00:42:59Even as an insider, it seems like he is just completely genuine and well immersed.
00:43:06And he knows horses.
00:43:08He can ride a horse for God's sake, right?
00:43:10Yeah, yeah, I, I, I think one of the things he's teaching us as a for people who want
00:43:18to learn is he's teaching us about we need to tell our stories better.
00:43:22I'm saying as an industry, right?
00:43:26I think about trainers in particular, you know, we, we know that the plight of the modern
00:43:30day trainers a lot more difficult than it probably was 20 years ago.
00:43:36And I hear, I hear trainers all the time talking about we need more horses.
00:43:40I, I can't, I, I, I can't separate myself from the pack.
00:43:44Well, I think he's showing you got to work on your story.
00:43:49That's what people have to do in the, in the entertainment world.
00:43:53And we're in entertainment, but if you're in Hollywood, you have to keep working on
00:43:57your story.
00:43:58And I think the same thing, especially with trainers, it's going to help trainers.
00:44:03It's going to help partnerships.
00:44:06And I would like to think that there are trainers all across the country that are getting calls
00:44:11from people who one have watched the Netflix show and two have been told to look at this,
00:44:18this kid, Griffin Johnson by their kids.
00:44:21And all of a sudden you, you get that storm, that bruise.
00:44:26And man, I think we have a great opportunity, but you got to be intentional to tell your
00:44:32story.
00:44:32And that's what I hope people take away from this, especially the people who are in the
00:44:38industry and can benefit from this.
00:44:41Randy, are you going to have him on NBC?
00:44:44Are we going to see more on NBC this time?
00:44:47Absolutely.
00:44:49Good.
00:44:49Terry, I want to stay on the same subject because it's so interesting.
00:44:52And I agree totally with Randy and Zoe.
00:44:56I mean, we were so impressed by him, how articulate he was and how passionate he was.
00:45:01But I want to know, how did this all get started?
00:45:03Whose idea was this?
00:45:04You, me and Randy are all about the same age.
00:45:07I mean, I, I, I couldn't tell you the difference between Griffin Johnson and Lyndon Johnson.
00:45:13You know, where did this all come from?
00:45:16Yeah, well, I have to give all the credit to my daughter-in-law, Allie Finley, who was
00:45:22friend of a friend and of Griffin Johnson.
00:45:26So last year, ABR, a subsidiary of the Jockey Club that's been working on this project,
00:45:32a stake in stardom for like the last three years, you know, we were looking for a new
00:45:38crop of influencers.
00:45:39And one thing led to another.
00:45:42And we made contact, the people, the executives at ABR, they made contact with Griffin.
00:45:49And I think they saw very quickly that he could be a very, very good fit.
00:45:54I don't think they ever envisioned the progress that we've made as an industry with Griffin.
00:46:01But that's really how it started.
00:46:03So a couple of weeks after we bought Sandman, you know, the company at West Point, you know,
00:46:09stepped up as well as some other partnerships.
00:46:11So we're not the only one that's involved with the stake in stardom.
00:46:16But, you know, I know this is for another day and another discussion.
00:46:21But when people talk about a national marketing initiative, I've always said, well, what does
00:46:27that look like?
00:46:28And I basically changed my outlook.
00:46:32And I see this digital component of our industry is where it's at.
00:46:39That's the only way we can be really efficient.
00:46:43If you think about Griffin Johnson, he did a deal with Twins Buyers.
00:46:47So 17 million people got posts that had a link to Twins Buyers and they could sign up,
00:46:57use a coupon that said Sandman 20, and they got $5 back from their first $20.
00:47:03Now, I know that the executives at Churchill were just stunned with the increase in the
00:47:11betting on the Derby card overall, in particular on Twins Buyers on the Derby.
00:47:16And also the viewership was through the roof.
00:47:20So what was the one major difference?
00:47:22It was Griffin Johnson.
00:47:23So we have it.
00:47:27We have it.
00:47:27Let's take advantage of it.
00:47:29We don't have to dig.
00:47:31We don't have to do big, fancy commercials.
00:47:33We need to do more Griffin Johnson in the ice buckets.
00:47:37And so that's my take.
00:47:40All right, Terry, I want to team one up for you now.
00:47:42I want to throw a 30 mile an hour softball right over the heart of the plate.
00:47:47So you had a leading Kentucky Derby contender.
00:47:50What was the size of the West Point entourage at the Derby?
00:47:54And tell us about some of the things you did and what it was like to be a West Point partner
00:48:01at Churchill Downs on Derby weekend.
00:48:03Yeah, I hope it was good.
00:48:05I mean, we were just like a lot of other partners overall, Randy.
00:48:11We just try to make sure that people get their money's worth and they really feel
00:48:17like they're true owners of horses.
00:48:20And of course, that's not always doable.
00:48:25And the Derby, obviously, there are challenges there with paddock passes and walkover passes
00:48:30and the like.
00:48:30But look, I think we had about 120 people.
00:48:34We ran seven horses on Derby day.
00:48:36So it was the first time we'd run that many.
00:48:38But listen, overall, this is what we love to do.
00:48:43We think about it seven days a week, 24 hours a day.
00:48:47And we're all in.
00:48:48And I think our partners, they see that in us.
00:48:51And we're passionate about the business and about our horses and about people and the
00:48:58experience that they have in our business.
00:49:00So while we're not perfect, I think we can never be accused that we're not trying and
00:49:06thinking and really trying to take care of the little things to make sure the experience
00:49:13is as good as possible.
00:49:14So probably a textbook answer, but it means something.
00:49:19You have to execute.
00:49:20And that's what we've tried to get better at over the years is the execution on big
00:49:25days, especially like at the Derby.
00:49:27Terry, let's go back to Sandman for a second.
00:49:31Other than the fact that I picked him a jinx, you guys, because I haven't picked a Derby
00:49:34winner since Aristides.
00:49:36I did notice that, Bill, too.
00:49:38So I didn't want to bring that up.
00:49:41I'm not picking him into greatness.
00:49:42So you're going to be OK.
00:49:45Did you, Mark, or anyone on the team?
00:49:47I didn't really honestly see any kind of serious excuses in the Derby, other than maybe he
00:49:52didn't like the racetrack because of the slop.
00:49:55Has Mark said anything about, oh, it was this or it was that, or we're just going to put
00:49:59a line through it?
00:50:00Just put a line through it.
00:50:02I mean, excuses, I tell you, that's one thing I really like about our operation.
00:50:08We don't make excuses.
00:50:1098% of the time, you don't win.
00:50:13You just weren't the best horse that day.
00:50:15Everybody has challenges in races and surface and everything.
00:50:19So look, I know Mark talked about War Will, who finished seventh in the Derby and came
00:50:26here and ran lights out and got the job done in the Preakness.
00:50:31And I say that Mark's the same way.
00:50:36I think excuses are for losers.
00:50:39So we just don't make them.
00:50:41It's like, let's pack up.
00:50:44We'll go on to the next one.
00:50:45So I think the fact that he came out of the race really so well is indicative that he
00:50:53didn't put in his effort.
00:50:54So let's see.
00:50:56I think it's a really fascinating race on Saturday with the new shooters and everything.
00:51:01I know journalism, if he runs back to anywhere near the race in the Derby, he'll be tough
00:51:07to contain.
00:51:07So while we don't have the Derby winner, I still think it's a very intriguing, very
00:51:13interesting race.
00:51:14And it's still the Preakness.
00:51:18I've learned a lot from this podcast from you.
00:51:20And also, I know that Zoe can trick me under the table.
00:51:28But thanks for adding that part of levity to the podcast.
00:51:33It was actually a lot of fun.
00:51:34I'm surprised you're just figuring that out now, Bill.
00:51:41I knew Terry when he had hair.
00:51:44At the party class in Saratoga.
00:51:48Yeah, back in the late 90s.
00:51:52No, but I've seen pictures.
00:51:54But I actually knew Terry when he had hair.
00:51:58Lots of it.
00:52:00Well, Terry, best of luck with Salmon and all your other starters this week.
00:52:04Thanks so much for spending some time with us here on the TDN Writers Room podcast.
00:52:09And as this week's Gainesway Guest of the Week, it was a terrific interview.
00:52:13And best of luck with Sandman.
00:52:15Always a pleasure, guys.
00:52:16Thank you very much.
00:52:18This week's Guest of the Week, Terry Finley, brought to you courtesy of Gainesway, the
00:52:23home of last year's Preakness winner, Seize the Gray.
00:52:26Just a year ago this week, it was the coach, Wayne Lucas, helping Seize the Gray, the highest
00:52:32earning son of Arrowgate, to that victory over Kentucky Derby winner, Mystic Dan, and
00:52:36eventual Belmont Sticks winner, Gardner.
00:52:39Seize the Gray went on to win the $1 million Grade 1 Pennsylvania Derby as well.
00:52:44And now Seize the Gray stands at Gainesway Farm for a fee of $30,000.
00:52:49Gainesway, power, passion, performance.
00:52:52Seize the Gray wins convincingly.
00:53:04Seize the Gray.
00:53:06He's going to seize the day in the Pennsylvania Derby.
00:53:10Seize the Gray is still there.
00:53:13Seize the Gray wins the Preakness.
00:53:23With some of the fullest fields in the country and quality racing year-round, there's never
00:53:30been a better time to reap the rewards of breeding and racing in Kentucky.
00:53:36Purse money in Kentucky is at an all-time high, as is average purse per race, outpacing
00:53:41California, Florida, and New York.
00:53:45Kentucky breads.
00:53:46Breed them.
00:53:47Raise them.
00:53:48Race them.
00:53:50We all win.
00:53:53So how's this for a classic trifecta?
00:53:58On Friday, you've got Good Cheer winning the Kentucky Oaks.
00:54:02On Saturday, of course, you've got Sovereign Team winning the Kentucky Derby.
00:54:06And also earlier Saturday, across the pond, you've got Ruling Court winning the 2000
00:54:11Guineas for the market.
00:54:13Are they all three here in the corner?
00:54:14Well, a couple of things.
00:54:16First and foremost, all bred in the state of Kentucky, where classic winners are born
00:54:23and raised.
00:54:24And secondly, all three, of course, raced for Godolphin.
00:54:28So Sheikh Mohammed has clearly paid attention to the slogan, Kentucky breads.
00:54:33Breed them.
00:54:34Raise them.
00:54:34Race them.
00:54:36We all win.
00:54:37So one of the biggest stories coming out of the Kentucky Derby was the Junior Alvarado
00:54:42situation where he was fined now $62,000 for overuse of the whip.
00:54:50You can only strike the horse six times.
00:54:53You go over that, you get a penalty.
00:54:55And because the purse was so big, that's why the penalty was so huge.
00:55:00It's 20% of what his earnings were.
00:55:06I haven't mentioned this in a while because people think I'm nuts.
00:55:09And I'm tired of fighting an uphill battle that nobody else seems to care about.
00:55:16I know what the answer to this is.
00:55:18Get rid of the whip.
00:55:20And I'm very eager to hear what Zoe has to say.
00:55:25But I know they're not major racing countries.
00:55:27But Norway and Sweden, they don't want the use of the whip.
00:55:31When they did it at Monmouth, I thought that experiment went off just fine.
00:55:36And I think the perception that we give the public,
00:55:40just think about the words we were saying.
00:55:42You're saying to your friend, oh yeah, we whip the horses in the stretch.
00:55:46Say what?
00:55:47What do you mean?
00:55:47You whip the horses?
00:55:49That's terrible.
00:55:50And I know they say that the thing is so soft, it would hardly make any difference.
00:55:56And this shouldn't be the story coming out of the Kentucky Derby.
00:56:00But it is.
00:56:01Hysa has these rules and whatnot.
00:56:04And Junior, it looks like he's going to file an appeal.
00:56:07I don't know why he thinks he has any chance of winning the appeal,
00:56:11other than maybe he's just taking a flyer on that.
00:56:14But yeah, I mean, that was the, other than sovereignty winning,
00:56:20that was the biggest story that came out of the Kentucky Derby.
00:56:24Didn't it make the nightly news and Peter was applauding it or something like that?
00:56:30Maybe.
00:56:30I don't know.
00:56:31Randy?
00:56:32I'm not sure.
00:56:34I think so.
00:56:40There's two ways to look at this.
00:56:41Yes, it's a good thing it made the news and that the jockey's being punished.
00:56:45And they're like, good.
00:56:46Well, they're being responsible that, you know, you can only whip a horse this many times.
00:56:51It means that we're trying to do something about it.
00:56:55The $62,000 is a little bit steep as far as I'm concerned.
00:57:00But are we trying to say that if it's a $5,000 claim,
00:57:03you can whip the horse as much as you like?
00:57:05It should be the same in any race, in any jurisdiction, as far as I'm concerned.
00:57:12Do we do away with the whip?
00:57:13We did that.
00:57:14We did the no overhand whipping in Southern California.
00:57:20And that went on just fine.
00:57:21And most jockeys adapted to it.
00:57:24You had to switch sticks in a downward position that took some getting used to
00:57:27for some of the jockeys.
00:57:28Flavie and Pratt could switch sticks no problem, you know, like that in a downward position.
00:57:35It is a horrible public perception problem with the whipping of horses.
00:57:40So, you know, I have friends of mine that I bring to the track and they're like,
00:57:45does it hurt the horses?
00:57:46Is it this?
00:57:47Like, why?
00:57:48Why?
00:57:49And yes, Bill, you're correct.
00:57:50If you want to get rid of that perception, you get rid of the whip.
00:57:53And we did it in Southern California for quite some time.
00:57:56And did it deter the outcome of the races?
00:57:58Not really.
00:58:00It really didn't.
00:58:01There really wasn't a problem.
00:58:04Yeah, I get a kick out of the whole argument about the whip.
00:58:08It doesn't hurt the horses.
00:58:09Really?
00:58:10What horse told you that?
00:58:15How do you know it doesn't hurt, right?
00:58:20But I don't have any problem with the fine.
00:58:22My question is just, I mean, clearly in today's modern age in 2025, you have to have whip rules.
00:58:29If you're going to have the whip at all, you've got to have rules on its usage.
00:58:34You've got to have rules on what kind of whip it is.
00:58:37You've got to have rules on how many times a horse can be hit.
00:58:39And if you have rules, you have to enforce those rules.
00:58:43And that's what's happening here.
00:58:45My only question is, it's the Kentucky Derby, or you could say you could have the Kentucky Derby.
00:58:52It could happen in the Preakness or the Belmont or the Breeders' Cup or any major race.
00:58:55What happens if the next junior Alvarado is involved in a head-to-head duel down the stretch
00:59:03and hits his horse 15 times and wins by a nose and the other jockey follows the guidelines, right?
00:59:12At what point does the deterrence rise to the level of an automatic disqualification?
00:59:21Oh, we were meant to look that up, weren't we?
00:59:24Isn't it 10 strikes and the horse is disqualified?
00:59:28If they're going to enforce that, then fine.
00:59:32But do I think it made any difference at all in the way sovereignty ran?
00:59:37No, I don't.
00:59:39I think a top race horse like Sovereignty is going to give it 100%,
00:59:44whether they're hit six times or seven times or five times.
00:59:48I don't know if Zoe would agree with that or not, but I'm okay with the fine, given that it's a rule.
00:59:57I understand this is all about perception.
01:00:01I've never been a jockey, so my opinion doesn't count nearly as much as Zoe's type of thing.
01:00:05But the thing that makes no sense to me, if you hit the horse six times, that's fine.
01:00:12The public's not going to be outraged by it.
01:00:14But if you hit him seven times, oh, my God, this is the worst thing that's ever happened.
01:00:19Again, it goes back to my original point, just doing women.
01:00:24And I don't see how they expect these jockeys.
01:00:27Do you think Junior Alvarado coming down the stretch was thinking,
01:00:30oh, my God, I think I hit this horse six times.
01:00:33I better not hit him again.
01:00:34They said the jockey can't possibly process that and ride at the same time,
01:00:39especially when he's trying to win a race like the Kentucky Derby.
01:00:42Apparently, the World Encyclopedia behind me, Michelle Yu and Chad Summers,
01:00:48says it's a fine of 750 or 30 percent, 10 or more strikes over the limit.
01:00:56And points.
01:00:57And a horse disqualification.
01:00:59So if you hit...
01:00:59From purse.
01:01:01Oh, from the purse?
01:01:01No, no, you're disqualified.
01:01:03You're disqualified for purse earnings.
01:01:05The class one violation.
01:01:08Yeah, but then you're disqualified, right?
01:01:09No, you're disqualified.
01:01:10Yeah, you're DQ'd with 10.
01:01:13You're DQ'd on the spot for betters or you're DQ'd in the future after hearings.
01:01:18I don't know.
01:01:21It just says disqualification for 10 strikes.
01:01:25Yeah.
01:01:26So there you have it.
01:01:30That's from the HSTL website.
01:01:32And by the way, I think Junior Alvarado knew exactly how many times he hit the horse,
01:01:37in my opinion.
01:01:38Nine.
01:01:39He figured it's the Kentucky Derby.
01:01:42What the hell?
01:01:431,000, 1,000, 2,000, 3,000, 10,000, 20,000.
01:01:48Maybe I'm wrong.
01:01:49Maybe I'm wrong.
01:01:50I don't know.
01:01:52It's like $1,000 or $7,500.
01:01:55It's an interesting story.
01:01:57I don't think his appeal is going anywhere, but that's all it's going to do is make lawyers
01:02:01even richer and jam things up for probably this will take two years or something crazy
01:02:07like that to settle.
01:02:10Other than at Churchill Downs, well, actually it wasn't last weekend at Churchill Downs,
01:02:14but last weekend, not a bunch of big stakes races.
01:02:18Belmont had a pretty good car.
01:02:20Farbridge winning the Man O' War.
01:02:22But since this time of year, we're concentrating on the three-year-olds.
01:02:26The story out of Belmont at the Big A was Hill Road, who won the race for Chad Brown.
01:02:33This is a horse that I thought he looked good in this spot.
01:02:37He ran okay in the Tampa Bay Derby behind Owen Almighty.
01:02:41I know he's had his problems since, but he's a pretty good horse.
01:02:43Ran third in the Breeders' Cup Juvenile last year.
01:02:49Chad Brown used this race as a prep for the Belmont stakes.
01:02:54He's good at that.
01:02:56The two Preakness wins of his were with horses that sat out the derby.
01:03:02He's good with these fresh horses, but I just don't think this horse is good enough.
01:03:08He looked fine.
01:03:09He showed a lot of moxie in the stretch, closing to win the race as he did,
01:03:14but he wasn't beating much.
01:03:15Randy, I don't know what the figure is.
01:03:17Please fill us in on that.
01:03:19I have all the respect in the world for Chad Brown,
01:03:22but I wouldn't think this horse is going to be a top contender.
01:03:27The figure was a 94, which you would rather see it be 104 if you're going to really
01:03:34plug this horse as a legitimate Belmont stakes option,
01:03:38or at least something that you could feel confident about.
01:03:41Now, is he going in the right direction?
01:03:42Yes.
01:03:44Should a mile and a quarter be better for him than a mile and an eighth,
01:03:47given his running style?
01:03:48Yes.
01:03:49Mile and a half would be even better.
01:03:51You know, I thought coming out of the Breeders' Cup Juvenile,
01:03:55this was going to be a real sleeper in the Triple Crown,
01:03:58because the race he ran at Del Mar to finish third
01:04:02in a relatively paceless race behind Citizen Bowl of Gaming was a heck of an effort.
01:04:09And then, you know, he had some issues over the winter,
01:04:12and he couldn't get back until the Tampa Bay Derby,
01:04:15and that was probably possibly rushing him a little bit there.
01:04:18And so they just hit the reset button and decided to go the Peter Pan-Belmont route.
01:04:23And so far, it's working out.
01:04:26But the next step is going to be the big one, Zoe.
01:04:29Yeah, he had the right running style to do it, and he won nicely.
01:04:32Is he a superstar?
01:04:34I don't think so.
01:04:35But it's going to really be dependent on who runs in the Belmont stakes.
01:04:40And we have to keep reminding ourselves it's a mile and a quarter,
01:04:44and not a mile and a half.
01:04:45And it's going to be sovereignty's race to lose, without question.
01:04:48Because as good as journalism has looked on the track,
01:04:51sovereignty has looked just as good
01:04:54the last couple of days that I've seen some videos of him.
01:04:58But he's not running.
01:04:59So he'll be very fresh and running out of his same stall
01:05:03he's been in for the last nine months, pretty much.
01:05:07Hill Road also has a lead chain.
01:05:13So that's something they're going to have to work on as well.
01:05:15I wish I was having as much fun here in this trailer as you are.
01:05:17Can you let us in on the joke?
01:05:19Yeah, I know.
01:05:20Well, you know, Michelle's not really a quiet and demure
01:05:23you got Chad Summers and Emily just arrived.
01:05:26So it's going to get louder.
01:05:29Oh boy, okay.
01:05:31Yeah, Chad thinks it's the only chance he's got to be on the podcast.
01:05:35You need a big horse, Chad, then we'll interview you.
01:05:37I've got a heavy horse.
01:05:39You've got a heavy horse?
01:05:40Did you stand on the scale with it?
01:05:43We'll talk about Mind Your Biscuits.
01:05:45That's all.
01:05:46We'll talk about Mind Your Biscuits.
01:05:50It's now time for the first TV work of the week.
01:05:53There were several candidates for the Grade 1 Shoemaker Mile
01:05:56working out in preparation for that race on May 26th on Sunday,
01:06:01including Carbo Spirit and Seal Team shown here.
01:06:04They were among 249 horses to record timed workouts
01:06:09on a busy Sunday morning at Santa Anita.
01:06:12Seal Team seen here on the outside worked six furlongs
01:06:15in company with Eastwick in 112 and 3 for trainer Dick Mandela.
01:06:19Seal Team is a five-year-old horse by War Front
01:06:22and he most recently finished second in the Grade 3 Thunder Road
01:06:25at a mile on the turf on February 1st.
01:06:28He's also one of the best looking horses that you're going to lay your eyes on.
01:06:32We'll be right back after this message from First TV.
01:06:38Be a smarter, better with First TV.
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01:06:52All at your fingertips and delivered right into your inbox.
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01:07:16Experience the power of the partnership.
01:07:22Change your life, make new friends and compete at the highest level of thoroughbred racing.
01:07:29West Point Thoroughbreds, the gold standard in racing partnerships.
01:07:33Visit westpointtb.com.
01:07:37And why don't we talk a little more about West Point Thoroughbreds.
01:07:41Terry Finley was our Gainesway guest of the week.
01:07:44Well, we've got some more news about West Point Thoroughbreds,
01:07:47which is one of the sponsors of our TD and Riders Room.
01:07:50They have a busy weekend in store for them here at Old Hilltop.
01:07:53Not just Sandman in the Preakness Stakes, although that's huge.
01:07:57They've got three more three-year-olds running in stakes action.
01:08:00There's Myla Rose running on Friday in the Miss Preakness.
01:08:04She's undefeated.
01:08:05The Miss Preakness is on the Blackhawk Susan undercard.
01:08:08Then Saturday for the James W. Murphy on the turf.
01:08:12West Point has Reagan's Wit.
01:08:14Love that line.
01:08:15Whether you're a Republican or a Democrat, Ronald Reagan had plenty of wit.
01:08:18So Reagan's Wit.
01:08:20And then keep it easy running in the Chick Lang for three-year-old sprinters.
01:08:25That will be on Saturday.
01:08:27West Point.
01:08:28Busy weekend here at Finleycom.
01:08:32Well, that's a wrap on this week's TD and Riders Room podcast, our pre-Preakness show.
01:08:37Hope you enjoyed it.
01:08:38Maybe we gave you a couple of tips that will help you cash some bets on the Preakness.
01:08:42I want to thank my co-hosts, Randy Moss and Zoe Cabman,
01:08:46along with our Gainesway Guest of the Week, Terry Finley,
01:08:49and the people who work behind the scenes, our producers and editors.
01:08:52That's Sue Finley, Katie Petruniak, Anthony LaRocca, and Aaliyah LaRocca.
01:08:58Enjoy the Preakness, everybody.
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