- 5/19/2025
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00:00what do you think a maiden fan could really take away from this book the sense of ambition that the
00:04band had how organized they were and how responsible they were all along the way there's
00:09some drinking stories and stuff in there as well i mean i i think i do a good job of putting it in
00:14context to the new wave of british heavy metal how they fit in and kind of dominated that scene
00:18rock metal frog and everything in between welcome to this episode of talking rock with meltdown
00:26don't forget to follow the audio only talking rock podcast on all podcast platforms and now
00:32it's time for today's conversation here's meltdown now it's meltdown here with uh canadian author
00:38martin popoff and martin great to make your acquaintance i'm a huge fan of your history
00:42and five songs podcast nice thanks for listening that's wicked yeah no i love it because you know
00:48i i suggest other people listen to it too because i've been in this business for 35 years i grew up
00:54just outside of your region there in buffalo now i've been here in detroit for the last 30 years but
00:58you always learn something and you always have an opinion and that's cool and sometimes i don't agree
01:02with your opinions but at least i listen to them at least you you kind of point out uh why you chose
01:08those kind of opinions but it's really interesting i'm getting too old to sugarcoat stuff so yeah you
01:13just say it and move on right yeah that's right so the new book hollowed by their name iron maiden now
01:19it's funny because just listening there it is yeah perfect the unofficial iron maiden bible and uh
01:25just uh you know listening to your podcast for all the years i thought that you already wrote a book
01:30about iron maiden but no well i actually had one called two minutes to midnight uh which was a timeline
01:36and quotes book and then through quarter we had a album by album where you do a panel thing and this
01:42whole book this whole new one is the amalgamation of three self-titled books from years years ago i'm not
01:49not self-titled self-published is what okay um and and so all of that is squashed together to make
01:54this so this is more like the straight normal biography version and then it's expanded by having
02:00a bruce dickinson the mandrake project chapter and a senjutsu chapter and then many many more
02:05picked like there's 400 color pictures in it there was just little color sections in the old ones
02:10that's awesome how hard is it to get uh permission to use some of these pictures
02:13is that a task in itself well no so so all pictures are owned by the photographer so you got to
02:21talk to them about it so that's that and then all memorabilia shots you're pretty much all always for
02:27the history of all rock book writing has have been allowed to use memorabilia shots and then you know
02:32you can use record promo shots as well those are allowed because they're kind of put out there in the
02:37public and uh yeah that's it i mean so yeah when it comes to live photography you know you definitely
02:43have you know and um there's also like if you're doing like an album cover book you shouldn't do
02:50album covers full page in a coffee table book because then you're kind of usurping that person's
02:55art but if you have it small and you're talking about it and you're reviewing and stuff that's fine
03:00too so there's little gray areas here and there as well now from what i understand this book is
03:04is pretty much uh taken from your interviews you've done since 1995 up until 2024 and you've
03:11just compiled them uh walks through toronto you just got your earbuds in listening to this stuff
03:16kind of compiling thoughts on writing a book or how does that work well you know it's you know there
03:20is a lot of my own interview footage in it and that's good i mean that's what i want to do when i put
03:25out a book so i'm adding some value but it's it's a whole combination of that plus some of the
03:30available press so other people's interviews reviews of the albums at the end of each chapter
03:35i usually get into a little bit of that i try to and then my own analysis uh of the albums and the
03:41songs so i'm reviewing as well so if you take all those components and add it together you know you
03:46can make a proper rock book i i never want to do a rock book where i haven't ever interviewed the band
03:51like like a biography type book i've done some other books like that that are different concepts
03:55where uh you know they're not interview intensive but uh so it's it's not like it's not like even uh
04:01boy what would i say i mean if you talked about raw footage of of me talking to the band it wouldn't
04:07even make up even half the book i mean it's it's everything it's the whole it's telling the whole
04:11story but yes i've interviewed the guys probably over 30 times okay yeah that's i'm trying to remember
04:16they were they were the first major band i ever met when i got in this business back in 1990 and i got to
04:23sing on stage with them i sang backups on bring your bring your daughter to the slaughter
04:27nice with some radio station winners in rochester new york so cool no that's great so so now if i'm
04:34not mistaken every chapter is pertains to a different album and and and like that yeah pretty much like
04:41what i always like to do with the biography type books is i want them to be essentially about the
04:47album so you know i start off we talk a little bit about production the album cover was like in the
04:52studio or whatever and then i try to go through every song right in the same order that they came
04:56out on the album and if i've got anything from the guys on the music or the lyrics that'll go in there
05:01i'll give my own opinion or whatever we get to the end i'm gonna do in the charts and all that
05:06did it go platinum uh a little bit of uh about the tour follow-up any other stories that fit in the
05:12chronology but yeah just to keep it straight in my mind especially for a massive book like this which is
05:17666 pages right um it's uh you know i i do want really appropriate 666 i i want it to be like
05:25every every chapter is uh is an album and then i even have a dedicated chapter to every bruce dickinson
05:32album and then dedicated chapters to like british lion and stuff like that as well and sometimes live
05:38albums sometimes not but uh yeah it's it's the whole idea is to get you excited about those records that
05:44you spend all that hard-earned money on go back and listen to them while while playing you know
05:48reading that chapter now um iron maiden obviously a huge band around the world but much bigger in
05:54different parts of the world outside of north america what's your theory on that do you have one
05:58yeah i i love that about them i mean really um i i think they're probably maybe i i have blinders on
06:05i don't know other bands like this but to my mind it's iron maiden and deep purple seem to be the
06:11two bands at least in our dad rock world uh that that seem to want to put the effort into play all
06:18these uh these non-western countries so iron maiden is a great global band and of course when they did
06:24the 666 flight 666 movie you know bruce is flying the plane around so you know that even even just that
06:30idea the logistics of having your own plane and putting everybody on it and the gear and flying
06:35around these places makes it easier as well so i love that about them uh i think i think certain
06:41things um certain things uh translate well like like the whole idea of eddie uh and the artwork and
06:48the mascot um that the stage show is uh is very vibrant and uh yeah it's it's fairly easy to
06:55understand music i suppose comparing it to today's metal but yeah for whatever reason they they just have
07:01turned into a great cosmopolitan band maybe that starts with you know rock and reel and stuff like
07:07that like south america asia they've been everywhere so they yeah they remind me a lot of deep purple in
07:11that respect and he just talked about eddie i'm trying to think if there's a is there another mascot
07:16that's as big as eddie in the hard rock and metal world i mean disturbed has like their guy and
07:21you know uh i guess megadeth uh to a certain degree but that's kind of like something that's kind of
07:26unique for iron maiden isn't it yeah i you know you think of them all you've got vick rattlehead
07:31megadeth you've got snaggletooth with motorhead uh testament's got one uh marillion kind of uh it's
07:39interesting i think i mentioned this in the book but marillion's on the same label as maiden and
07:43they're coming up around the same time new wave of british progressive music i suppose uh but they've
07:49kind of got that mascot guy um so so people have tried it over the years riot famously riot has the
07:56you know the seal the seal head guy um but uh and dio has murray right um so yeah there's a few
08:04out there but but not not nearly as big as made because they just hammered the hell out of it right
08:08he's on everything it's dedicated eddies for for the tours and all the single sleeves and all that
08:15various people making eddies you know derrick riggs starts it but other people pick it up so
08:19you know there's dozens and dozens and dozens if not hundreds of eddies out there right yeah but
08:24like you said it's like uh that you know listen as far as rock t-shirts go that's the one yeah you
08:31know yeah and you know it it's uh it's so distinct and you can spot it a mile away because they also
08:37have that that stark red and white logo uh and then eddies usually there's some neon green in there
08:44so it's a it's a garish color scheme it's very cartoony uh but it does translate well to a rock t-shirt
08:50for sure yeah and uh so i was gonna you know sometimes when when i when somebody writes a book
08:54i i could say like well what did you learn about this band but i mean these are all your interviews
08:58so you already knew all this stuff but what can what what do you think like a a maiden fan could
09:03really take away from this book you know i i think they would take away uh the sense of ambition that
09:09the band had um how organized they were and how responsible they were all along the way there's there's
09:15some there's some drinking stories and stuff in there as well i mean i i think i do a good job of
09:20putting it in context of the new wave of british heavy metal there's a lot of that at the beginning
09:25of the book like how they fit in and kind of dominated that scene i just recently did a um i think
09:30i did a podcast episode like this too but we have a youtube channel called the contrarians and i
09:34i did one of these uh if you wanted the least snobby um list of the greatest 10 new wave of british
09:42heavy metal albums so you're not acting like a record snob and picking all the obscurities and
09:46stuff you could literally put five iron maiden albums and three deaf leopard albums on that list
09:51of 10 and just leave two slots to be snobby about right so so you know for them to dominate having
09:57have a record every single year from 80 to 84 and they're and they're all like you could easily say
10:03they were the best record of that year they all have magical cool things about them you know which
10:08which means like you know instant instantly with iron maiden and then while even instantly with
10:14soundhouse tapes people were talking about how excited they were about this band but you get up
10:19to killers and on and on number of the beast and it's one of those bands a little bit like metallica
10:24by the time you get to ride the lightning you go these guys kind of just have talent they're just
10:29really good they got good ideas everything about them is you know these guys are going places you
10:34can just tell there's just something special about most of the things they're doing yeah now i
10:38discovered uh rock music in the early 80s uh the new wave of british heavy metal had kind of already
10:42taken off but i mean iron maiden really was the band that came out of that and continued to thrive a lot
10:49of these bands if they're still continuing today are playing you know clubs or opening up you know
10:54theater shows or something like that and oh yeah set themselves apart yeah for the new wave of british
10:59heavy metal almost nobody you know did anything uh not none of them even came over and did anything
11:05and a few of them briefly came over but you know the the biggest ones really are just uh
11:11deaf leopards kind of a special case because they became more of an americanized kind of band
11:15but um it's really just iron maiden motorhead and saxon and saxon just dropped very quickly
11:22motorhead just stayed a cult band but made good music and kept and then lemmy moves to la and they
11:27kind of become an americanized band but the other funny thing about maiden in all this
11:31is all of those new wave of british heavy metal bands um saxon's a great example of this the modern
11:38day saxon is like saxon goes to the gym and becomes a gleaming power metal machine kind of thing
11:44like it's hard to distinguish a modern day saxon album from a modern day accept or a modern day
11:50judas priest album saxon does not sound like the gritty zz top biker rock band that was big in the
11:55way of british heavy metal whereas maiden they kind of came up with this sound a round peace of
12:01mind i would say um because i remember thinking power slave was the first album that sounded like
12:05kind of like the last album before that they were all different but they kind of come up with a sound
12:10and they just stick with that sound for the rest of their whole career right down to even like the
12:15production values sounding a little antiquey and old school right so uh and saxon didn't do that uh
12:21and motorhead became a much better again motorhead goes to the gym version of motorhead
12:27um but maiden yeah it's it's almost like uh it's it's ludicrous to think of them as a new wave of
12:33british heavy metal band 45 years later but they literally sound just like they did back then yeah
12:38i think that the key to their sound and this is just my opinion is obviously bruce you know i mean
12:42bruce is bruce but uh steve harris i think is that that secret ingredient in there
12:46well the neat thing about them is is they they have just personality in all the player positions
12:53right they got steve's bass sound his what he wants to play also you got steve's lyrics and bruce's
12:59lyrics which are very similar to each other you've got the famous uh harmony guitar harmony solos
13:06um and or licks it's not always solo sometimes it's literally the licks of the songs and you've even
13:12got a a uh a drummer that has a sound of his own with nico kind of jumping into the fills early and
13:17buried down the you know just all that you know coming all the time right and then and then speeding
13:24up and slowing down so you've got some humanity some push and pull in there and even right down to
13:29kevin shirley um you know the production sound that they have again with that with that kind of old
13:34school um you know low budget kind of sound on purpose sort of thing they don't they don't want to
13:40sound too computerized and they don't right so that's the cool thing like i give them a pass
13:45for sticking with their sound and really never changing but i give them a pass because it's just
13:51just personality everywhere yeah there's some bands you know acdc for example you know uh but
13:56judas priest you mentioned them they have changed a little bit i think that richie faulkner really added
14:00to that band and he kind of took them in a different direction especially that record in
14:042017 i thought that was great absolutely but it is it is this sort of modern gleaming
14:12computerized everything locked down everything sounds perfect sort of sound right and and so that's
14:18different what what most of these bands would do kind of in the 70s and then they're they're all yeah
14:22judas priest changed a lot over time um but yeah they they've settled on this uh this this pretty uh
14:29this pretty modern sound um whereas whereas yeah maiden literally i think at peace of mind
14:36that's it that's the that's the standard lineup and it was sounding like that forever yeah it's
14:41funny uh yeah put on rockerola and then put on firepower it's it's like two different worlds exactly
14:46that's the point yeah exactly you got it yeah so so when you put out a record like this do you
14:50send it to the label you send it to all the all the band members well it was interesting with this
14:56one like literally i've done like 135 books or whatever right and there's there's never really
15:01any discussion with the band or anything like that but um this got announced to come out and uh their
15:07attorneys wanted to look at it so the publisher sent it to them and uh they had a few suggestions
15:14changes maybe the original cover like the logo was a little close to the iron maiden logo
15:19i don't know who suggested it but either they did or we did we'll put on official in there
15:25just to make sure nobody thinks it's official and i think we even changed the title from hallowed
15:30be their name to hallowed by their name but uh they they totally gave us their blessing on the insides
15:36um which was you know that's that's the most of it right which which you know that's the part where
15:41you're always going oh my god it's like if you have a thin skin you know you write a 666 page book
15:47you'll probably you could probably say that you would upset somebody in the band a few hundred times
15:54like say six say six members you know divided into those hundred you know what i mean like
16:00you know i'm sure you could always find things or or you could have them start saying no that kind of
16:05happened the previous week and that's not really what went down there and you know imagine getting
16:10a bunch of cooks in that in that pot and moving things but no it it was but they were they were great
16:16it was great dealing with them and uh and yeah it's and so it's nice to know that they know all about
16:20it and you know it's got their blessing well i think that uh what some people may not know that
16:26don't do what we do if you treat the bands fair and you treat them with respect and you build up a
16:31camaraderie over the years and they respect you i think they're they're more likely to just let you
16:36do your thing yeah yeah i think so as well but you know i i always every time i get on with a rock star
16:42on on the phone or on zoom or something well zoom now we it's more face-to-face but say in the old
16:47phone days right it's like i always wonder does this person remember me let's see we're up to
16:52we're up to interview four or five but that's over 20 years i have no idea if they don't know who i am
16:56right you just you just plow through the thing and you don't want to embarrass them either and
17:01and say oh yeah remember oh yeah we know we went we met before right you know it's like
17:06so yeah it's funny uh these guys meet so many people right so i i i bet a lot of these guys have
17:12no clue who i am yeah well what i always tell people the phrase i hate the most when i go
17:17somewhere is do you remember me because it's like oh great yeah i get that a lot i know and it's like
17:23uh i talk to a lot of people and i sometimes talk to people for a half hour and i i don't remember
17:27them a couple weeks later uh so the book is out uh hallowed by their name and uh yeah you just
17:33mentioned you wrote over a hundred books uh just real quickly uh tell tell the people are listening
17:38right now uh some of the other topics and uh bands you've written about well there's like six
17:43books on rush there's uh there's a bunch on judas priest van halen ufo blue oyster coat black
17:49sad a few little smaller bands like merciful fate riot montrose max webster um what's the other one
17:56kind of like that a couple three ufo books uh your eye heap uh so yeah punk so so a clash book and
18:04a damned book where i analyze every single song by those bands i really like those ones
18:07uh prog we've got uh two or three yes books we got a couple genesis books did a book on the cure
18:14uh rainbow deep purple through schiffer we've got a nice big deal book coming shortly
18:19so yeah it's kind of about it some top 500 type books at one point some reviews books some new
18:25wave of british heavy metal just like the history of that scene uh books but uh yeah the rush was a
18:31big one we did the big trilogy of the rush books and then i had previous ones before that so
18:35yeah always stuff brewing yeah that's great i just talked with uh with alex a few weeks ago of
18:40course this project with the current and whatnot yeah great guy and um you just mentioned ronnie
18:44james deal it's the 15th anniversary of his past and you're you're doing a book on him coming up you
18:48said yes and it's pretty big too and it's also for schiffer so it's going to be a really nice hardcover
18:53book like this big thick long story of the band uh again same sort of thing that came from two
18:59self-published books from years ago uh and they'll they'll be full color throughout and all that
19:04and then following with schiffer i've got a book that's even bigger than this uh which is just
19:09called seven decades of deep purple and it's over 700 pages that one wow and this is another one where
19:16you do you've accumulated interviews from the past oh yeah yeah talk to those guys pretty much for
19:22you know every every recent album anyways um but yeah same thing 30 ish 40 ish interviews over the
19:28years when did you start your career late um i uh i did a self-published book of record reviews in
19:351993 so i was 30 in 1993 and then in 1994 tim henderson started brave words and bloody knuckles
19:43and i started that immediately with him so we started a rock magazine here in toronto
19:47and then you know but by that year or the end of that year next year i was starting to interview guys
19:54and getting free cds and all that stuff so so i picked it up then so 94 through to 2000 i also had
20:00a side job but in 2000 i went full time so that's why i'm able to get a lot of this stuff done people
20:06think that's a lot of books um but uh i write fast and i'm one of the only guys of my buddies who write
20:12all these books that doesn't have another job this is my job so yeah what was your what was your like
20:18your gateway to because you're a you're a rock heavy metal guy i mean i tell people all the time
20:22ozzy's crazy train just changed my life do you have a point like that and for your life yeah i would
20:27say um you know it's funny the the first albums i ever got i was maybe six seven years old and we
20:34had we had a brief brief flirtation with the columbia record club right yeah and uh i remember getting
20:41steppenwolf gold three dog night live and a couple credence clearwater revival albums right but
20:46but i could even tell in there it was the it was any heavy elements i liked in it that i liked so
20:51moving forward i would say when i was about eight or nine i would have heard like zeppelin four
21:00strikes me as super early for me zeppelin four um and then maybe black sabbath volume four so i'm nine
21:07by that point i think i remember vaguely that getting that as a new release so so right around there
21:13right around nine ten eleven and then and then it was you know rush as a new release kiss as a new
21:18release in 74 but lots of nazareth lots of bto lots of deep purple sabbath the rest of the zeppelins
21:25all of that right around that uh 10 years old sort of age and then you know by the time we were
21:30by the time 1974 so by 11 we were like encyclopedia encyclopedic walking you know just just can spout
21:39off all kinds of stats about you know buying circus and cream and hit braider all the time and all that so
21:44yeah cream from uh right here in detroit yeah you just mentioned kiss i was going to bring up kiss
21:48it's kind of funny uh you're a kiss fan growing up oh definitely yep i've had a kiss book already
21:54kiss at 50 and i have another one coming too but yeah so kiss at 50 uh this whole at 50 series i did
22:01for quarters we get kiss at 50 van helen at 50 acdc at 50 i did bowie at 75 two weeks from now or a week
22:07from now i've got guns and roses at 40 coming out um but yeah i was a massive kiss fan joined the kiss
22:13army and 76 off of you know the inserts in destroyer and all that for sure yeah i remember
22:19i remember exactly where i was the first time i heard uh welcome to the jungle i heard those riffs
22:24at the very beginning i'm like what is this and i'm turning up in my car radio and here we are all
22:29these years talking about that and it's kind of funny because that record came out and those guys
22:33became gigantic of course metallica's black record breaks 1992 they tour the two biggest bands on the
22:39planet and now we're in 2025 and they're still the two biggest bands or some of the two biggest
22:43bands on the planet i know it's it's funny and we just had a debate about this the other day i think
22:49the biggest at the moment is metallica but i would say i would say iron maiden is an even bigger
22:54band than guns and roses in some respects they're pretty close actually but iron maiden kind of
23:00deserves the edge just for how prolific they've been how many records they've made versus the guns
23:05and roses you got to put acdc in that discussion as well um and then and then sometimes i go but
23:11wait a minute you know they may not be as big but black sabbath is super super super important and
23:16they're actually very big too right because you know when ronnie came back and heaven and hell and all
23:21that i i mean the heaven and hell band um they they were headlining big places again right um so um so
23:29sabbath is sabbath is kind of like out of all these bands i think sabbath is the most important heavy metal
23:35band right yeah but metallica is the biggest ever iron maiden possibly second biggest ever
23:40and then that depends on whether you call acdc a heavy metal band or not because i i almost think
23:47acdc would edge out iron maiden actually yeah acdc is a an interesting one a hard rock band i just saw
23:53them here in detroit have you seen them on this latest tour no i haven't seen them on the latest tour um
23:58but you know it but but again they they um they're less prolific than iron maiden they're kind
24:04of like you know they the activity level has been low for many years right it's they're not super
24:11active band and but but uh by record sales see maiden's a funny one where um i often uh wonder if
24:18there's something weird going on where uh they just don't seem to care about going out and getting
24:22your golden platinum designations i i think most of those albums should be higher than they are
24:27but you know you talk to rod and he kind of does say we don't really sell that many records but i
24:33think they sell more than is showing and if if they went and did a proper certification they would go up
24:38but but acdc's got you know one of the biggest selling albums of all time it's got uh i think what
24:44is it four four times platinum for for those about to rock maybe six or seven times platinum for high
24:50highway to hell five times platinum for razor's edge maiden has nothing like that and metallica
24:56has a lot like that metallic is also a huge huge record did you see them when they were in toronto
25:00yeah and that was amazing um and that's the other thing i think metallica deserves to be called the
25:06biggest heavy metal band over a band like maiden because they just really put way more thought and
25:12money and artisticness into their stage shows and stuff it's just a bigger presentation you know and
25:18maiden's not playing roger center in toronto they're playing the hockey barn right and metallica
25:24actually played roger center man they had to have a strong build to do it um they could have done it
25:29on their own but but you know having that big ring stage and the and the uh you know all the screens
25:34are on those those cool tubes and stuff right it's very artistic whereas maiden's kind of like an old
25:40school here we are we're in front of this here's our eddies and here's our backdrops and all that kind
25:45of thing it's it's not the same it's not at the same sort of level and even they don't do
25:50the crazy innovative relentless merchandising kinds of things that a band like metallica does
25:56like innovative stuff right um so yeah i i think i think by a good good stretch metallica is the
26:02biggest heavy metal band of all time yeah i was thinking about this earlier you know this week it's
26:06like i guess they're my generation's led zeppelin but led zeppelin wasn't as around as much and didn't
26:11put out as much material as metallica did so i'm not even sure if that reference is plausible
26:15yeah you know as time goes on you know in the old days you would say oh led zeppelin biggest band
26:21of all time but as as we get more distant and distant and distant and they still have only eight
26:25albums out uh you know it's uh it doesn't look quite as big anymore and people kind of forget
26:30about but man they've sold a lot of records i think they've got i think just recently one one more
26:36clicked over but i believe they have i believe they have uh maybe maybe three diamond albums now
26:42something like that yeah i'll bet you robert plant has a has a nice dining room table
26:47exactly yeah yeah i'll tell you what i could talk rock and roll here for the next six hours with you
26:53but i got one final question for you just mention the uh you know the the hockey barn is your maple
26:58leafs going to do it or what or is their goose cooked god our goose is cooked i don't think they're
27:03gonna do it you're gonna be throwing your jersey on the ice yeah winnipeg though and who knows right
27:09because it didn't isn't this kind of how they did it the last series right they just clawed back from
27:13or was that edmonton i don't know but winnipeg's now only down three two they won four nothing i
27:17think it was last night right that's right yep they did yeah so that's pretty crazy and edmonton's
27:22gone through that's nice but uh yeah at least that's that's too bad but i i don't i don't know
27:26how they come back but it seems like uh your big stars are not showing up and as big stars are
27:32intimidating your big stars or laces that's how i see it from the outside looking in i don't know
27:37yeah yeah well you guys have had a lot of success i mean a lot of success across all sports for you
27:44know you know championships everywhere right we haven't we haven't made the playoffs in hockey in
27:49nine years and trust me that is not something that sits well with me that's for sure yeah but there was
27:54a mini dynasty there right oh there was a dynasty yeah 25 years is quite a dynasty yeah yeah yeah and
28:00someone's saying i would argue and i don't know how big a hockey fan you are but i would argue that the
28:042002 team in detroit may have been the best team ever and i'm talking about even better than some
28:10of the montreal teams the 80s and stuff and those were fantastic too that's interesting i i don't know
28:16why i know and barely enough to agree with you but i kind of remember that as well just thinking yeah
28:21that's that's a fierce fierce team well we bought all those guys you know brad hall and luke robert
28:27time we had shanahan eiserman i think there's like 10 or 11 guys in that team that are in the hall of
28:31fame or going to the hall of fame you know wow cool yeah too bad about the lions too man i was rooting
28:36for them you know we because we go to detroit quite often and watch uh go go to football games and
28:41stop baseball games so yeah too bad but yeah detroit's uh detroit's definitely had a lot of success i guess
28:47boston would be the leader for that right yeah yeah that's true well martin thanks so much for your
28:51time hollowed by their name is the book also the uh history and five songs a podcast love that
28:56and uh thank you so much for taking the time and talking uh rock and roll with me wicked that was
29:00a lot of fun thank you
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