00:00And with us to talk about a former French ambassador to Qatar in Saudi Arabia, Bertrand
00:03Besancenot.
00:04Thank you for being with us here on France.
00:05My pleasure.
00:07Emmanuel Macron, remember just after October the 7th, the Eiffel Tower was in the blue
00:13and white colors of the Israeli flag.
00:17It was shock after that Hamas attack.
00:19How did we get to this point where now France is on the brink of recognizing a Palestinian
00:24state?
00:25Oh, I think this is quite clear.
00:27At the time of the 7th of October, everybody was shocked with such a terrorist act, which
00:33was absolutely horrible.
00:35So it was quite normal to express our sympathy for what happened there.
00:41Now after that, you had the reaction of Israel, which has been disproportionate when you see
00:48the losses of human people in Gaza and the destruction there.
00:56And after that, happily, we had a ceasefire.
00:59But we have to admit as well that the present policy of the Netanyahu government is precisely
01:06what is fragilizing the ceasefire, both in Gaza and in Lebanon.
01:12So it is not a surprise if President Macron went to Egypt there, because the humanitarian situation is terrible there, is really horrible.
01:24So as a normal being, it is quite natural to do that.
01:29The second aspect, which is more political, is that we cannot live without a real solution to the Palestinian issue.
01:40When the minister, the Israeli minister, says that recognizing Palestine will lead to recognition of terrorism, I would say it is exactly the opposite.
01:52That means that, in fact, if you are not solving the Palestinian question, then you are putting other risks of having other 7th of October.
02:03So this is exactly the opposite.
02:07We have to do something.
02:08We have to find, at the end, and we have, all of us have waited much too long, having a fair and durable solution to the Palestinian question.
02:19So this is why I think the fact that President Macron has said that means that, on one hand, we want to send a very clear message that time has come to do so.
02:35Second, it is clear that you have nearly 150 countries which have already recognized the state of Palestine, including half of the European countries.
02:47So the message by France is to say that we intend to do so in the framework of the conference that has been for the Saudi-French initiative, which is to have an international conference in New York in the middle of June or the end of June, I don't remember the date, precisely on the solution of two states.
03:09Because, and it is very logical, you cannot be in favor of the solution of two states if you don't recognize both.
03:17So this is very natural.
03:19It is logical, I would say.
03:21All right.
03:22And it's interesting because up to now, since October 7th, the European countries that have come out and recognized the Palestinian state, Spain, Ireland, Norway, which is not an EU member, but still, these countries, they don't have the weight of the past that the likes of Britain, France, and Germany do when it comes to World War II and not helping the Jews during World War II, during the Holocaust.
03:47Why this – how easy or difficult is it a decision by Emmanuel Macron in this regard?
03:57I don't know if it is a difficult decision.
04:00Was this an off-the-cuff remark he made?
04:02Because he sometimes does.
04:03Or is this something carefully planned?
04:05No, no, no, no, no.
04:06I think that this is quite clear.
04:08And the visit of President Macron to Cairo was very clear when he said that we are – well, France is supporting the Arab alternative plan for Gaza.
04:19And he recalls that we are in favor of the two-state solution, as we made it very clear, taking the initiative with the Saudi to convoke an international conference on the solution of the two-state solution.
04:34So this is very logical, I would say.
04:37And when you see how long this conflict has lasted in Gaza, when you see the number of victims, the destructions there and all that, it is clear that the situation has changed.
04:51So when you have a new situation, which is not acceptable, clearly, on a humanitarian basis, and politically, we are convinced that the only solution, if you want to avoid other 7th of October, is clearly to find a fair and durable solution.
05:10It remains, though, we agree, a symbolic recognition at this point.
05:14Well, of course, it will be symbolic, but we have, after that, to work on the very concrete steps.
05:22The first one is certainly to strengthen the Palestinian Authority.
05:27We have also to give security guarantees to Israel, in particular by the fact that only the Palestinian Authority will have the monopoly of using force,
05:39which means that we don't want to see any more militias like Hamas or the Islamic Jihad.
05:46It has to be the Palestinian Authority.
05:50So this, we have to elaborate all the different steps going to the Palestinian state.
05:58This is clear.
05:59France, not a major player when it comes to negotiating peace between Israelis and Palestinians.
06:04But you mentioned the word Lebanon earlier.
06:07Yeah.
06:07Among your colleagues at the French Foreign Ministry, how much are they irked by the way things are going right now as they try to help reform in Lebanon?
06:22No, they are a little bit worried because for the time being, you have this violation.
06:29There is no other word of what is the conditions of the ceasefire.
06:35And this is not acceptable because, of course, it doesn't help the reform in Lebanon.
06:42Was that a factor in Emmanuel Macron's announcement when it comes to possible recognition of a Palestinian state?
06:49It is a factor.
06:49But when you say that we are not a major player for the Israeli-Palestinian question, it is true.
06:58Everybody knows that the main players will be, on one hand, President Trump.
07:02On the other hand, it will be the Prince Mohammed bin Salman.
07:07For one good reason, President Trump has said that his priority was to have a normalization between Saudi Arabia and Israel because he wants to have a coalition between the Gulf countries and Israel in front of Iran.
07:22But on the other hand, the Prince Mohammed bin Salman made it very clear that he has no problem with the recognition of Israel at the condition that there will be the establishment of a Palestinian state.
07:36So we will have a negotiation there between these two leaders.
07:40But, of course, they are not the only one to be part of the negotiation.
07:44And at some point, it is important that we do support the Saudi position in favor of the establishment of a Palestinian state.
07:53And we will do so.
07:55And this is the rationale behind the initiative, the joint initiative between France and Saudi Arabia.
08:02Bertrand Besancenot, thank you so much for being with us here on France.
