'Erdogan trying to play a bigger role internationally but he's not reliable, nor is he predictable'

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00:00We are staying with this story to get more analysis. We can welcome to our program

00:05Ilhan Özgal who is the Deputy Chairman of the Turkish CHP. Now this is the party

00:11of the man in question. Mr. Özgal, thank you very much for being with us.

00:14Can you give us your assessment as to why Ekrem İmamoğlu has been arrested?

00:20He's not arrested yet but he's only a detainee and we are deeply concerned that he can be arrested

00:28too because many CHP opposition party mayors have been first detained and then arrested after four

00:37days of interrogation. So we are worried about his fate in custody. But that's a major attack

00:48against Turkish opposition and in general against Turkish democracy. Not only Mr. İmamoğlu who is

00:54the chief rival for Mr. Erdoğan who's really frightened because all public opinion polls

01:07show that he's leading ahead of Mr. Erdoğan and the moment he realized that he could not win him

01:14in a free and fair election so he tried to eliminate his main opponent. But in general

01:24especially for the last couple of months what we have been going through is the heavy crackdown

01:31on the opposition at every level. Businessmen, workers unions, ordinary people on the street

01:39criticizing the government, a party of a leader of a nationalist party. I mean hundreds of people

01:48have been detained every other day. Turkish people are waking up to a storm of detainees

01:56so that is a part of a general democratic backsliding in Turkey. But Mr. İmamoğlu has

02:06been specially targeted along with other 107 individuals including some district mayors

02:14in Istanbul. That's a serious violation of human rights but the government does not care about it.

02:23It sounds like what you're saying is that there is a real, as you say, I think the word you used

02:27was backsliding. It's a particularly opposite word I think. It's a real regression on the issue

02:31of human rights in Turkey. Yes, democracy is declining. That's part of an authoritarian

02:39trajectory in Turkey that the government controls the whole judiciary. There is no separation of

02:46powers in Turkey anymore. That a special appointee, a prosecutor appointed by Erdoğan, a certain

02:55prosecutor is carrying all the judicial processes in Istanbul against the opposition forces. So we

03:03are really moving from a competitive authoritarianism to an uncompetitive

03:10authoritarianism whereas Mr. Erdoğan does not want to see any political opponent anymore.

03:19Involvement with the PKK, now obviously that's the Kurdistan Workers' Party listed as a

03:24terror group not just by Turkey but by others. Things are changing of course with their leader

03:29Öcalan saying that it should be dissolved and members should put down their arms. That's another

03:33issue but this accusation that Imamoglu is connected with the PKK in some way,

03:39shape or form, is there anything in that? Nothing in that. It's the standard

03:47procedure by the government. When they want to detain an opponent it's either

03:54corruption charges or in a link with the terrorist organization which sounds

04:01really serious. How can a mayor link with a PKK terrorist organization that was defined,

04:11designated as a terrorist organization by the state? There's no reason for Mr. Imamoglu to

04:18have some kind of a link. There's no logic behind this accusation. By the way, the government itself

04:26is currently holding negotiations with the leader of the PKK which is itself designated as a

04:33terrorist organization. That's a huge contradiction on the part of the government. So these allegations

04:40are groundless. They have no legal basis. The only thing is that that's politically motivated

04:46and they want to eliminate Mr. Imamoglu as a political rival. That's the core of the issue.

04:52Will you as a party still elect him as your candidate to go forward to the presidentials?

04:58Is that still a possibility? Yes, of course. We're determined to hold the primaries on Sunday

05:05and it's definitely no coincidence that just a couple of days before the primaries

05:11that they detained him. I mean, they tried to target the Istanbul municipality which is a

05:16stronghold of the opposition party. Istanbul is a city of 15 million. So they want to destroy

05:24the services that have been provided by Mr. Imamoglu and by the municipality.

05:31And they want to prevent him running against Erdogan. That's the problem. On the 23rd of

05:37March, on Sunday, we urged and encouraged all our members to cast their votes

05:46for the nomination of Mr. Imamoglu. And we're going to do it.

05:52In terms of what happens to democracy, to human rights in Turkey, clearly you have fears

05:58about how things are. Should Erdogan's rule continue? Should the rule of his party continue?

06:03Yes, we're going to resist all these crackdowns by the Erdogan's regime, which defies any basic

06:14human rights and rule of law. But we are here. CHP is the oldest party in Turkey, which is a

06:21history of more than one century, and which has emerged as the biggest party, first party in the

06:29last local elections, with a margin of seven percent. First time in two decades, Erdogan

06:38himself was defeated in an election. So he's got very angry and he's trying to get his revenge

06:45on the opposition. So we're going to resist that. We're not going to give it up.

06:51One thing that might embarrass the president is if there are voices from abroad who are

06:56questioning why this is happening. Now, you're talking to a French-based international news

07:00channel now, but are you concerned that maybe there is very little criticism coming out

07:06from other governments across the world about what is happening in Turkey?

07:11Well, indeed, we're quite concerned about the reaction of the international community.

07:17For some time since, to be frank, since 2016, Erdogan made a deal with the EU

07:26regarding the Syrian refugees, that Turkey is going to hold them in Turkey in return for some,

07:33you know, international assistance. And in return, they basically don't criticize Erdogan

07:40as it used to be. So they tolerate Erdogan. This is my criticism for my European counterparts or

07:51the European governments. I know that there are lots of people that support democracy in Turkey,

07:57like European Parliament. But in general, considering Turkey as a strategic ally that,

08:05you know, takes Turkey as a refugee warehouse, which helped the declining of the quality of

08:17democracy in Turkey. When you hear, when people hear that President Erdogan was

08:24key in trying to get a peace process going regarding Ukraine and Russia, when you consider

08:30Turkey as a member of NATO and an important member of NATO too, is all that in a sense

08:36hiding what is happening at home, hiding the problems that you've got? Is that one of your

08:41issues too? Oh, yeah. But I mean, Erdogan is trying to play a bigger role internationally,

08:49but he cannot. I mean, he's not reliable. He's not predictable. So I mean, in the Ukrainian crisis,

08:56Turkey is not the interlocutor. Turkey tries to have a mediator role, but he cannot get this role

09:03because probably neither of the sides, they have a trust in Erdogan. So Turkey is basically excluded

09:11from the peace processes regarding the Ukraine crisis. Yılan Özgel, Deputy Chairman of the

09:18Turkish CHP. Thank you very much for sharing your analysis with us of the situation. I remind people,

09:23Ekrem İmoglu, one of your colleagues, in custody, not under arrest, in custody,

09:30facing possible charges, accusations at least, of corruption and aiding a terror group, i.e.,

09:35sorry, the clear example is the PKK, which is the Kurdistan Workers' Party. And this being done,

09:41you're saying because he is a threat politically to the current president of Turkey, President

09:48Tayyip Erdogan. Yılan Özgel, thank you very much for joining us here on France 24. We will be

09:52following this story very closely indeed, and we thank you for your time. Thank you, sir.

09:56Thanks for having me. Thank you. You're very welcome.

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