Hostage-for-prisoner swap

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00:00 We can now bring in Jonathan Michael Metzl, psychiatrist and sociologist at Vanderbilt

00:05 University.

00:06 Thank you very much for joining us here on France 24.

00:08 A lot of questions still up in the air, but what we do understand is that 13 Israeli women

00:16 and children are being released, as well as 12 Thai hostages.

00:21 We don't know what conditions these people have been living in.

00:24 We don't know if they've been underground, overground.

00:28 What would Israeli authorities be thinking the best way going forward would be, in your

00:34 opinion?

00:35 Well, thank you for having me.

00:37 We are, you hear from so many guests that we're in uncharted territory in a geopolitical

00:42 sense and we're definitely in uncharted territory in a psychological sense also.

00:46 I mean, there's a standard textbook for what people do.

00:51 You know, there's PTSD, there's trauma, there's fear, there's fear, there's sometimes bonding

00:56 with your captors.

00:57 There's a textbook for how we think about how people respond to trauma like this.

01:03 But something like this, where people saw their relatives be killed, lived in isolation,

01:08 we don't know anything about the process, and then they're reentering this world where

01:11 think of everything that's happened over the last 40 some days.

01:15 And so I think they're going to be particularly careful about sheltering these people very

01:20 slowly, taking care of their needs, making them feel safe, probably blocking them off

01:27 from the media, hopefully.

01:29 And just really, I think the sense is every case is going to be very different, not just

01:33 because of the conditions that people lived in, but because of the trauma they saw as

01:39 they were being taken hostage.

01:41 And so we're really in uncharted, really hyper, hyper, hyper sensitive territory right now.

01:47 Indeed, I wanted to ask you about that, because this is not the first batch of hostages that

01:52 have been released.

01:53 We first saw two Americans, a mother and daughter, being released, and then we had two elderly

01:57 women who were released.

01:59 The elderly women, the day after they were released from Hamas' possession, essentially,

02:07 one of them gave a press conference, and she was, for a woman her age and for what she

02:12 had been through, she was remarkably brave. She was even criticized for the things she

02:17 said.

02:22 What do you think Israeli officials should do in terms of giving them access to actually

02:28 tell their story and what they experienced? Should they have access to the media? Should

02:33 they not have access to the media?

02:35 Well, again, think of everything that's happened, even since those first hostages have been

02:41 released, in terms of the politics, in terms of the world opinion. And it's also important

02:46 to note that different hostages, of course, they went into this situation with different

02:50 views. I mean, the hostages you're speaking about were peace activists before this. We

02:57 don't know what the interpretive system that people are understanding this with. But then

03:02 different hostages are kept. It's not like they're all kept in one room, right? They're

03:06 kept in very different situations. They've been themselves in a war zone, kept by different

03:14 groups under different conditions, different captors. And so I certainly think it's very

03:18 important in an open democratic society to let everybody tell their story. But I just

03:23 think that people are not going to be there. It's just going to be a lot of difference

03:28 about when people are ready to tell their story, because just the comprehensive scheme

03:34 work that is going to be just to comprehend what's happened. And then remember, a lot

03:38 of these captors are little kids.

03:41 Exactly. Little kids who have seen, I'm not sure what, before on the 7th of October, before

03:48 they were taken hostage. And who knows what they've experienced since then?

03:51 Yeah. So again, we are really in profoundly uncharted territory now. Maybe these stories

03:59 will lead to some good. I mean, you just honestly don't know. I was thinking even in terms of

04:04 your prior guest, we don't know what effect these hostage releases are going to have politically

04:10 or socially. We don't know how the world's going to interpret the stories that they tell.

04:15 So I just think the one sliver of optimism in this horrible situation is that this is

04:24 a chance to change the narrative. And I sure hope we seize it. But I would just say that

04:32 it's really going to be a lot of long, hard work, because I do think that one thing about

04:37 having been taken captive in the past is that people live in fear for the rest of their

04:41 lives about, is this going to happen to me again? And so really taking real care of psychological

04:46 needs is going to be very important.

04:48 I want to ask you about something, because clearly Israeli officials, intelligence officials,

04:53 are going to try and extract whatever information they can from at least the adult hostages,

04:59 the women, I assume, they get as potentially even the Thai hostages, just to find out where

05:05 they were held, the conditions, so that they could hopefully or in their minds find the

05:11 other hostages, the other 180 hostages who would be remaining in Gaza after this four-day

05:17 truce is up. How soon can that happen? Because as you said, we're in uncharted territory,

05:24 but clearly the Israeli Defence Forces have their own goals here.

05:30 Again, I think it's just going to matter. It's going to be case by case. I mean, imagine

05:38 the sensory deprivation. We don't know where they've been held, but I can pretty much guarantee

05:44 that it's probably been someplace very disorienting. And then they don't know the bigger story,

05:49 even of what happened. They don't know the bigger story of the attacks or the war or

05:54 anything like that. And so I'm sure that there's going to be an intense assessment of psychological

06:01 needs and psychological care. And I really do think that there's no one uniform answer.

06:06 It's really going to vary case by case, depending on the hostages and really, again, what shape

06:14 they're in when they come out.

06:15 Jonathan, stay with us because my colleague, Matthew-Marie Karasche, has some more on the

06:21 families of Palestinian prisoners who have been living in limbo in the hopes their loved

06:26 ones are part of this current deal. Take a look.

06:30 In the Qalandia refugee camp near Jerusalem, families are waiting with anticipation. Noran

06:36 Awad's mother learned that her daughter, who had been arrested at the age of 15, was on

06:40 the list of prisoners to be released.

06:43 I never expected my daughter Noran would be part of this deal because she is from Jerusalem

06:48 and has been accused of an attempted stabbing. I received numerous calls about my daughter

06:53 stating that she's included in the deal. I am now extremely optimistic and have an indescribable

06:59 feeling.

07:00 Ahmed Awad was arrested a year ago after incidents with Israeli soldiers. He is also eligible

07:06 for release.

07:08 This is a great joy, and I hope that other mothers of prisoners will also rejoice.

07:12 Israel has published a list of 300 prisoners eligible for release. The youngest is 14,

07:18 arrested in May for sabotage, assault and stone-throwing. The oldest is 59. About half

07:24 of them are said to be affiliated with one of the Palestinian factions, and about half

07:29 of them are less than 18 years old.

07:31 In this list of 300 prisoners, only 150 are expected to be released. This mother, whose

07:37 daughter is on the list, waits in anguish.

07:42 I hope it will happen and nothing will disrupt her.

07:47 Although between 6,000 and 7,000 Palestinians have been detained in Israel, only a third

07:53 of them have actually been charged. More than 2,000 are in administrative detention. That

07:59 means they've been imprisoned without charge or trial.

08:02 I'd like to bring in Jonathan Matzel, again, a psychologist who joins us there from Nashville,

08:10 Tennessee. You know, this conflict, of course, we have the hostages who have been held in

08:15 Gaza, but we also have what's going on on the West Bank and, of course, the destruction

08:22 in Gaza for residents there. I have seen videos of children in Gaza trembling, literally three

08:29 years old, and they're shaking. And as well as what the Israeli children have seen, there

08:35 is so much trauma some of these kids are witnessing. What is the fear for them in the future, that

08:41 they have witnessed this? And unfortunately, as Spain's prime minister said a couple of

08:46 minutes ago, violence will lead to more violence.

08:52 My hope as a psychiatrist, honestly, is that this is a moment where we can—I mean, the

08:57 whole world's paying attention right now, and the stakes of this are so clear on all

09:02 side. Generational trauma is profound. It's real. It's driving what's happening now. It's

09:07 happening on all sides. It's happening to families. But maybe now is a time where we

09:13 can look at this. I mean, look at the stories we're telling here. These are stories of really

09:18 human capital. People are being seized on both sides in anticipation, I mean, for what

09:24 they're doing, maybe, or who they are, but also in anticipation of future swaps. It's

09:30 just so profoundly inhumane and unsustainable. And I think maybe this is a moment where we

09:38 can look at this moment structurally, now that we're all paying attention, and think

09:42 about a way that we can address this situation in a way that leads to peace.

09:46 And so I agree with your question that generational trauma on all sides, growing up in war, growing

09:52 up in the shadow of the Holocaust, growing up with your mortal enemy living 10 miles

09:58 away from you, growing up thinking you could be a captive or seized at any moment on either

10:03 side for a minor offense or for going to a dance party. To me, this is just, I mean,

10:09 it's just so beyond the scope of how we even think about trauma. Maybe trauma's, the framework

10:14 needs to be expanded in a way. But maybe, again, this is a moment where we can look

10:18 at this and think, how can we structurally change this in a way that learns from what's

10:23 happening and creates a new reality on the ground for people?

10:26 Jonathan Metzl, thank you very much for joining us on the program. And like you said, hopefully

10:31 in the future, better senses prevail.

10:36 (smooching)

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