Israel can only defeat Hamas ideology by 'presenting alternative ideology that is more attractive'

FRANCE 24 English

Visit our website: http://www.france24.com  Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FRANCE24.English  Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/France24_en

Transcript

00:00 We are now able to bring you some live pictures of the UN General Assembly.

00:06 We mentioned earlier they are preparing to vote on that Israel-Palestinian crisis very soon.

00:14 That vote on a non-binding resolution calling for a humanitarian truce.

00:21 And it is Jordan that has proposed the resolution in the name of 22 Arab countries.

00:30 Well, our guest this evening is Jossie Meckleberg,

00:36 who is an Associate Fellow with the Middle East and North Africa Programme at Chatham House Think Tank in London.

00:47 He's here to give us his thoughts on the Middle East, the Israel-Hamas war in the moment.

00:55 Thank you so much for your time, Mr Meckleberg.

00:59 Maybe we could start by asking, first of all, do you think Israel can defeat Hamas?

01:10 Good evening. It depends how you define defeat.

01:14 If they can militarily hit Hamas very badly, reduce its military capabilities, yes, it can.

01:24 Its military is superior to Hamas and it can reduce its capabilities considerably.

01:31 Can it hit it politically?

01:33 Actually, by hitting so many civilians, it might achieve actually the opposite.

01:39 The question is also if it can also defeat ideology.

01:44 And ideology you can defeat only by presenting an alternative ideology that is more attractive.

01:51 And for this you need a political solution.

01:54 So I think it depends how Israel is approaching it.

01:57 The military approach, the political one, but also how you deprive Hamas of its support among the people

02:05 because there is no peace between Israel and Palestine because they live under occupation.

02:11 And more and more people are asking the question.

02:16 Joe Biden was very clear when he spoke to Netanyahu.

02:19 He said it's one thing even if you do manage to militarily oust Hamas from Gaza.

02:27 What is the plan for the next step? What will replace it?

02:32 And the options seem all very complicated and not likely to succeed.

02:42 Could you run us through what might happen if Hamas leave Gaza?

02:46 First of all, there has been general neglect of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

02:50 because people fell into this illusion that there is some status quo.

02:54 There was never status quo because the situation has been deteriorating for a long time.

02:59 And it was unsustainable.

03:01 Not the occupation, not the blockade in Gaza.

03:04 And it created a sense of despair.

03:07 Of course, what Hamas did in the worst possible way,

03:12 they committed atrocity that actually changed all the equation in the relation between the Israelis and Palestinians.

03:19 And as a result came this military response.

03:23 But the military response itself is not the answer.

03:27 It might be a reaction and try to remove Hamas from being part of the political scene in the region.

03:36 But at the same time, the lack of planning, that's exactly the point.

03:40 The lack of plan, how to move away from the conflict to think about how you go back

03:46 to ensuring that the political rights of everyone, the human rights of everyone, the civil rights of everyone,

03:52 the idea that self-determination for Palestinians should stay on the agenda,

03:56 not something that is pushed aside and the idea of two-state solution is a mantra.

04:01 But no one actually diplomatically for years now invested neither the political nor the energy

04:09 in putting together a plan that can move away with the situation that prevailed until the 7th of October.

04:17 But in terms of who would administer Gaza, I think the Israelis would say,

04:23 well, you know, the Israeli military and the settlers pulled out in 2005.

04:29 And yes, they have maintained a very strict blockade with the Egyptians

04:34 and they have controlled who goes in and out of Gaza through the sea and through the border there.

04:41 But in terms of administering the Gaza Strip, who will do it once Hamas have gone?

04:51 And very many people outside wonder why it was that life was so bad under Hamas.

05:00 Why did they not manage to make any kind of success of running the Gaza Strip,

05:08 even though, of course, there were very many restrictions put on what they could do?

05:15 If we're gazing into the future beyond the war, so no one really wants to administer Gaza.

05:24 The Israelis left there in 2005, but we're in complete control.

05:28 So there's occupation from the outside, unlike the West Bank that is occupation from the inside.

05:33 Egypt wouldn't like to go back there.

05:36 And if the natural replacement for Hamas is the PA, they can come on the back of the Israeli tanks.

05:43 And then the Palestinians will see them as actually collaborated,

05:48 the Gazan people as collaborators with the Israelis.

05:53 So what remains is actually to build gradually an administration there,

05:58 through an international mechanism that will run it in the aftermath of the war.

06:04 Again, we're all assuming here that Hamas is going to be defeated and will be out of Gaza,

06:09 which we can't be absolutely sure about it.

06:12 But if this is the case, the United Nations should be.

06:15 Let's not forget there is UNRWA, which is a UN agency that is in charge of the Palestinian refugees,

06:21 that has almost some sort of governing power because it is with education, it is with health, it is with shelter.

06:29 So to use this mechanism and gradually moving into that there will be a political governance led by the Palestinians.

06:36 One of the conditions for that is-

06:38 But who? Who?

06:39 All the elections, for instance, that will provide legitimacy to whoever governs them.

06:45 Okay, well thank you very much, Mr Meckelberg.

06:48 I really appreciate you taking time to talk to us on a Friday night.

06:52 Thanks very much. Yossi Meckelberg speaking to us from London.

Category

Transcript

Recommended