'As we saw with Maidan and other 'revolutions',in Ukraine, civic mobilisation is an extremely effective tool'

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00:00Well, Russian forces struck Ukraine's Zaporizhia oblast this Wednesday.

00:04Two people were killed, children among those wounded in the attack.

00:08The area here has been described as a recreational centre.

00:10Nine single-storey holiday cabins were damaged.

00:16Let's bring in James Wasserstrom, an independent war zone anti-corruption expert,

00:21for more on the situation in Ukraine.

00:23James has worked with exposing corruption for the UN in Kosovo and Afghanistan.

00:27And, of course, James joins us as the appointment of Alexander Zavinsky to the ESBU has been confirmed.

00:34James, thanks for being with us here on France 24.

00:36Why is this appointment of Alexander Zavinsky so important?

00:42It's very important because in the event that there's a settlement at some point,

00:47which we hope will take place, there'll be a flow, a massive flow of funds,

00:52tens of billions of dollars into Ukraine.

00:54And this agency and this particular head will be one of the key pillars to fight any kind of corruption,

01:02any kind of siphoning off, misappropriation, embezzlement and fraud, etc.,

01:06that might occur with those funds.

01:09So it's extremely important to the West, as it is to Ukraine,

01:13to have a proper and a gentleman with integrity leading that agency.

01:19Indeed. You helped select this very gentleman himself, Zavinsky.

01:24Tell us about his credentials.

01:27He works currently as a senior detective in the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine.

01:33He has demonstrated a record of going after big fish.

01:37He doesn't go after the small fry, if you will.

01:40A clean city of Kiev was one of his achievements.

01:43That's a major attack on corruption in the municipality of Kiev,

01:46the largest city in Ukraine.

01:48And he struck us on the commission as probably the only one with the strength of character,

01:55the backbone, the credentials in the education to actually tackle the massive corruption problems

02:02that Ukraine has always faced, but now worse than ever.

02:05The situation, of course, that developed on the streets of Kiev regarding the issue of corruption

02:13led to a change of heart by President Zelensky, which then led to this appointment.

02:18Why was it initially then blocked by Ukraine's government?

02:22Can you go into that for us, please?

02:23Of course.

02:26Well, I mean, if the government itself, including the leadership, is engaged in corruption,

02:32which we have every reason to believe is the case,

02:34then they obviously wouldn't want to have a strong leader in charge of a major anti-corruption agency.

02:39So there was recalcitrance, to say the least, in putting someone like Zelensky in charge.

02:47And let me add that the civil society, the civic mobilization that got so much attention

02:53was a wonderful feature.

02:55It's something that Ukraine has in abundance as and when the occasion arises.

03:00But there was also an enormous effort made for the first time that I know of,

03:06having done this kind of work for 20 years, by the international community

03:10to actually force this on a very reluctant president and prime minister.

03:16Indeed.

03:17Is there an implication in what you're saying that President Zelensky himself is corrupt?

03:22I can't say that because I don't know that for a fact.

03:25But certainly it is widely alleged in Kiev, in Ukraine, among Ukrainians,

03:33as well as international community, that his administration, his government,

03:36is involved very seriously in corruption.

03:41OK, so an issue there which really needs clarifying and needs cleaning up.

03:45And this is a step towards that.

03:46And this is an important thing that would lead and be part of, of course,

03:50any EU membership bid that Ukraine would make.

03:55Absolutely true.

03:56And I was very impressed by the excellent work done by Marta Kos,

04:04the EU Enlargement Commissioner, who really was very strong in her insistence

04:11on this particular appointment, as well as some other very serious anti-corruption measures

04:18that Ukraine was neglecting.

04:22And she really pushed it and I think overcame the reluctance by, in fact, reducing certain funds

04:32that were supposed to be going to Ukraine from one day to the next, actually,

04:36when the Ukrainian government was so imposed to this,

04:40and then by continuing to insist on it until it actually happened.

04:45And other agencies, the IMF and others, also stood their ground here

04:51because there is a great deal at stake financially, politically, etc.

04:57And trust in the government of President Zelenskyy to actually carry out the reconstruction

05:03and protect the private sector, which is also going to be a leader

05:07with foreign direct investment in whatever reconstruction happens in Ukraine in due course.

05:14Indeed, that reconstruction, of course, in many cases underway,

05:17but still the destruction campaign by Russia continues.

05:22We saw, as you were talking to us, James, people protesting in the streets

05:25and the change of heart was partly led, mostly led by those protests in the streets of Kiev.

05:32Of course, this is a great, something that distinguishes Ukraine from Russia, isn't it?

05:36If you protest in Ukraine, you have the chance to do that.

05:39If you do the same thing in Russia, you end up in jail or worse.

05:41Absolutely true.

05:44And as we saw with Maidan and other revolutions, quote-unquote, in Ukraine,

05:50civic mobilization is an extremely effective tool in Ukraine,

05:54as it is likely to be in other countries,

05:57and certainly a tool to fight corruption wherever it occurs, not just in war zones.

06:02So it was very impressive how quickly the streets were filled with protesters after a series of events

06:10of which this particular appointment and the government's failure to make the appointment

06:15was only one trigger that led to this outpouring of outrage against Zelensky's move to shut down

06:24the various anti-corruption agencies as well as harass anti-corruption activists and not make this appointment.

06:32So it was a series of moves Zelensky made to undermine the fight against corruption,

06:37using his position in martial law to act with impunity.

06:41James Wasserstrom, thank you very much indeed for joining us and giving us more insight

06:46into this very important move towards cleaning up Ukraine's act in terms of suppressing corruption,

06:53and of course, essential to clear the way towards EU membership.

06:56James Wasserstrom, independent war zone anti-corruption expert.

06:59Thank you, sir, for joining us.

07:00My pleasure.

07:02My pleasure.

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