Exclusive: Macron calls for international taxation system in push for climate solidarity

FRANCE 24 English

In an interview with FRANCE 24, RFI and franceinfo, French President Emmanuel Macron outlined his vision for tackling the twin issues of climate change and global poverty. Speaking from the Summit for a New Global Financing Pact, which he hosted in Paris, Macron answered questions from Stéphane Ballong (FRANCE 24), Mounia Daoudi (RFI) and Marc Fauvelle (franceinfo). Macron&#160;emphasised the need for global cooperation in implementing an international tax&#160;regime to support coordinated action on both&#160;climate and alleviating&#160;poverty&#160;in a live interview.&#160;Macron pointed out that France had already implemented taxes on financial transactions (FTT) as well as on air travel, but argued that these measures were ineffective when only implemented in one country and stressed the importance of international mobilisation around climate financing. He also expressed his support in growing international momentum towards a levy on shipping emissions ahead of the upcoming International Maritime Organisation meeting in early July and called for a greater push towards establishing a tax on maritime transport.Chinese debt can be a 'trap'&#160;&#160;Macron stressed the importance of cooperating with China on international debt restructuring efforts, saying that&#160;Beijing has become a major international creditor in recent years, particularly in Africa.But he also said that Chinese debt can become a trap if it rises above a certain &quot;threshold&quot;. Macron highlighted the importance of producing a plan, in line with OECD practices, for financial bailouts and lending.When discussing the challenges of a green transition, Macron underscored the importance not only of action on the environment but also on efforts to combat poverty&#160;and&#160;s... Go on reading on our web site. Visit our website: http://www.france24.com  Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FRANCE24.English  Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/France24_en

Transcript

00:00 can hear from Emmanuel Macron. He is with our correspondent, Stéphane

00:04 Balanque. Good morning, Mr President. We are here at the Palais

00:14 Bruniard in Paris. 40 heads of state and government. Since

00:18 yesterday, a summit for climate and development at my side. This

00:23 morning, Mounia Daudi from RFI, Stéphane Balanque from France 24.

00:28 Mr President, just one more summit to save the planet.

00:32 First of all, it's not just about saving the planet. It's

00:36 about reconciling the fight against poverty, fighting for

00:40 biodiversity and combating global warming. So it's not just

00:44 about one extra summit. The whole point is having leaders

00:50 from all continents because we're going through a time of

00:54 fracture, the risk of a break-up with the invasion of Ukraine,

01:00 the world dividing. We cannot settle anything if the world

01:03 divides. Here in Paris, the planet is here. We have the

01:06 Chinese Prime Minister, the President of Brazil, the

01:09 President of South Africa, and many other leaders, Senegal,

01:13 Cote d'Ivoire, Europe, the United States. Secondly, this is

01:18 very concrete action. Two years ago, we launched in Paris the

01:22 reattribution of special drawing rights, in particular for

01:26 African countries. We said we need to reorient at least 100

01:31 billion euros. We're doing this now. We've pushed everybody to

01:34 meet their commitments, and France is going to reallocate

01:38 40% of our special drawing rights. So several colleagues

01:42 said yesterday we have reoriented the 100 billion for

01:46 climate from the north to the south, and we're launching at

01:49 the same time a fund for biodiversity and preserving the

01:52 forest, which is intended to end up at the COP. They're very

01:57 specific things, restructuring the debt of Sambia, which has

02:01 been dragging on for years. We settled this yesterday because

02:04 we have China here, and we have Senegal, which is concluding its

02:09 transition agreement.

02:10 We're going to talk about Senegal. Is it also a way for

02:13 you, Emmanuel Macron, to redeem yourself, as it were, you've

02:16 been six years at ELYSEE. We haven't done everything fully

02:20 well on that.

02:20 Well, no, I never looked at it in that way. One of the first

02:23 things I did was to launch this Make Our Planet Great Again.

02:27 We're consistent. We're making efforts here in France. This has

02:30 been recognised because in action on climate, we haven't

02:37 been condemned for climate inaction. Over 2017, 2022, we

02:42 doubled our

02:45 emissions.

02:45 But we're not complying with renewable commitments.

02:48 You're quite right that we're lagging somewhat. We're going to

02:51 catch up. We're going to be on the trajectory. But we are

02:54 meeting our commitment to reduce emission, which is the main

02:58 thing. So I'm determined to stick to this. We're going to

03:02 make extra efforts through planning. But it's just that

03:05 we're trying to make everything come together. France is just 1%

03:12 of emissions. So we produce the aeronautical sector. We have the

03:15 Le Bourget Salon, where I was at the beginning of the

03:17 aeronautical sector, represents 3 to 4% of global emissions. But

03:21 France produces half of the plane. So if we're able to

03:24 decarbonate the sector, then we could be the champions of

03:29 decarbonisation of the sector, which by itself, if we remove 60%,

03:35 will enable to reduce the efforts consistent with France's

03:41 commitments. So this is what we've done the One Planet Summit,

03:44 One Forest Summit on climate and biodiversity issues over the past

03:48 six years, over the past 10 years, almost France has been

03:53 pulling on the rest of the planet. And we're meeting our

03:56 commitments, including through financing, because we've

03:58 including we've increased our public aid to development by 50%.

04:03 Mr. President, you mentioned a divided world, the West on the

04:08 one hand with its climate agenda on the other, the southern

04:11 countries whose priorities to fight poverty and insecurity.

04:15 Isn't that a bit of a contradiction?

04:18 This is the major risk. And therefore, the first principle I

04:21 set out when we opened the conference yesterday was that we

04:24 and nobody should be able should have to choose between poverty

04:28 and biodiversity and climate. So what is wrong is when you give

04:32 the impression that you're lecturing people that you're not

04:35 right, you're not you have no right to have such and such a

04:38 project because bad for clients. So this has been the whole

04:39 discussion in Africa, for example, over gas.

04:42 Well, let's take the example of Senegal. Yesterday, you announced

04:46 2.5 billion support for Senegal for renewable energy. Does that

04:51 mean that Senegal must stop exploiting its gas?

04:55 No, the agreement, which is the just energy transition agreement

05:00 for Senegal, which is what we've done for South Africa for

05:04 Indonesia, and for several other countries. It's an agreement

05:08 that seeks to enable them to have a transition which creates

05:12 wealth, and therefore, power to produce and which reduces

05:17 emissions. Senegal is committing to have 40% of renewable energy

05:22 in its energy mix, but it's going to develop gas.

05:25 But this is in the form of grants, right? Isn't Senegal

05:29 going into debt for that?

05:31 No, because there is a profitable business behind that.

05:34 So we make concession loans over the long term. But for Senegal,

05:39 we're going to enable Senegal to develop its gas projects. Why?

05:42 Because gas is a transition energy, and we know that the

05:46 planet will need it for the decades that lie ahead. So what

05:48 we want to do is to bring the major emerging countries out of

05:53 coal. This is a priority to win the climate battle, and to enable

05:58 the countries to develop as best in the best way possible for

06:00 Senegal, this will be gas and increasing renewable energy, but

06:03 40% of renewable energy by 2030, bearing in mind that they're

06:07 going to be producing gas. This is very demanding for Senegal.

06:12 And that's why we've had these commitments, it will enable

06:14 Senegal to develop it. We can't tell them you have gas, but you

06:19 can't use it. Whereas in Europe, you have countries that are

06:22 reopening coal mines, it doesn't make sense. Now, nobody can

06:27 succeed unless we win this joint battle on poverty, climate, I

06:33 think you cannot choose the countries of the global south,

06:36 our reserves, biodiversity reserves, and also the lungs of

06:39 the planet. And in particular for our forests, and therefore,

06:43 the major forest fund is a key component.

06:46 Mr. President, we were talking about debt a moment ago,

06:51 precisely on debt for years and years now, we've been talking

06:54 about debt relief, restructuring for years, nothing has really

06:59 changed. Shouldn't we simply just cancel that debt?

07:02 Well, there are things that are changing. There are changes. We

07:05 did this for Chad, and we're concluding on Zambia.

07:08 Took three years.

07:09 France is playing a key role. And we need to have sustainable

07:17 financing models. If you cancel the debt, that means nobody will

07:21 lend in future. If you tell the lenders, well, we're canceling

07:26 all the debt. Since these are models that are not self

07:30 financing. Well, good luck if you want to find people to lend

07:33 money. Now, what is unbearable is not admissible is that there

07:38 are economies today, which are biodiversity reserves, which are

07:42 absolutely key for the planet, which have the demographics, the

07:46 youth of mankind, which are not being financed properly. And

07:50 which I'm just trying to give you a structured answer to this.

07:54 What we need to do is to restructure the debt. The major

07:58 problem of the past 15 years is that when you restructure the

08:01 debt, we the European countries, North America, the G7 countries,

08:06 the very same countries from whom you were cancelling the

08:10 debt, we're going to go to China. And that's what happened

08:13 basically everywhere. So on the continent. So what did we do on

08:18 the French initiative under a G20 chaired by Italy, we said to

08:23 the Chinese, look, you have to join us for the global framework

08:26 we apply the global framework to Chad and now for Zambia to

08:28 Zambia, because nobody even when we push for this, and we said

08:32 we're going to reschedule the debt, give up the amounts that

08:36 are owed to us. So what what do you how can you say to people

08:40 we're going to give up on our debt?

08:42 The debt contracted from China.

08:46 So everybody's made an effort. Is that a problem that debt from

08:50 China? Is it a trap for developing countries?

08:54 If it gets beyond a certain threshold? Yes. So we need to

08:58 have a common framework, which is the OECD framework, which

09:02 defines what is sustainable debt. It's like you. It's the

09:06 same thing as over indebtedness for household debt is not a bad

09:10 thing, but it enables you to get going. But we've fund financing

09:17 Europe models for development after the Second World War. Now

09:20 you have to

09:20 this is and this is what we're doing for Zambia, we're

09:25 rescheduling their debt. So all the wealthiest country, including

09:30 China have to sit around the table. And this is what we're

09:33 doing. It's innovative. And that's how we will get out of

09:35 this.

09:35 Have you discussed it with the Chinese Prime Minister

09:37 yesterday?

09:38 When I went to China, I had that discussion with the Chinese

09:40 Prime Minister. That's why he's here. And as you've said, for

09:44 Zambia, we've been waiting for three years, and they're here.

09:46 And we're going to have to continue on countries like Ghana

09:49 and others, which are in great difficulty, we have to

09:52 restructure the debt. Now our approach to financing the

09:57 African economies is no longer the right approach. So yes, we

10:01 have to reschedule debt much more vigorously. Secondly, we

10:06 have to better remunerate the biodiversity reserves in Africa,

10:11 Latin America, Southeast Asia, the tropical forest. This is

10:15 what we're the rainforest, this is what we're doing with the fund

10:18 for the funds for nature. And we're going to sign contracts

10:23 country by country. And we have to say we have to agree that we

10:26 should spend more we have to better mobilize. And this is one

10:28 of the very practical conclusions. The IMF and the

10:31 World Bank are completely changing their approach that

10:34 they're going to be financing much more. And let's not forget

10:37 that we have to mobilize much more private sector.

10:40 I was going to come to that were installed this morning on the

10:44 trading floor, the former headquarters of the stock

10:48 market without the money of billionaires of large companies,

10:52 you say won't be able to make it right.

10:53 Exactly. So there are two things that have to be done. Number

10:57 one, every time we put one euro of public financing when you

11:03 when we have to one euro of private sector for the emerging

11:08 countries, it's possible. What are we lacking? First of all,

11:11 each time we have a program, we have to be sure that a private

11:15 sector financing couldn't do the job better. And this is how we

11:19 have the World Bank and the IMF. And secondly, we have to have a

11:21 different method with leverage. And this is the commitment we

11:25 made yesterday. So in other words, when we put one euro of

11:29 World Bank financing, we have at least one euro from the fund

11:32 private sector. This is absolutely fundamental. And

11:34 that's why what we have to do is to reduce the risk. There's a

11:40 lot of private sector money. And this is why France is mobilized

11:45 very actively, because we mobilize all the sovereign funds,

11:48 all the major investment managers, all the private sector

11:52 funds, and what are they saying? They said, we don't go into such

11:56 and such a country because there's a foreign exchange

11:57 risk, or we don't go to another country because there's a

11:59 political risk or another country. If there are too many

12:03 losses for our shareholders, they won't follow us. So the

12:06 private sector has to make a profit. So what should we do? If

12:12 we want to have leverage on the public sector financing, we need

12:16 to innovate in order to have mechanisms that are there as a

12:21 backup, as a guarantee to absorb an initial loss in order to

12:25 trigger the private sector investments.

12:27 In a few months' time, Mr. President, there'll be a global

12:30 minimum tax rate on large companies at the risk of

12:34 upsetting. We should have a climate wealth tax globally in

12:38 France.

12:38 No, you'll never get me reacting with shock. No, we need an

12:47 international reaction. Why did I cancel part of the wealth tax

12:50 in France? Because we were the only ones who did.

12:52 Global climate wealth tax.

12:53 Now, as I was saying yesterday, I was jokingly to some of our

12:59 efforts. We're at the frontier of tax creation in France. We

13:05 have a tax on finance transactions. Who else has done

13:08 this around us? Almost nobody. So it doesn't work when you do

13:11 it by yourself, because you're punished for this, you're

13:14 penalized, and the funds go to us. So to finance climate

13:18 funding, climate change or poverty. Yes, we're being told

13:24 that we should have a tax on air tickets. We're doing this in

13:28 France. Who else is doing it? Nobody. It doesn't work when we

13:30 do it by ourselves. So I mean, okay, so let's penalize our air

13:36 companies, and they'll all go to the Gulf states to make money.

13:39 It doesn't work.

13:40 Third proposal, and I commend the mobilization of the IMO, the

13:45 International Maritime Organization, the maritime

13:47 sector is not taxed. It's one of the only ones. It's so it has to

13:51 be taxed, but not just the French players, you have to tax

13:54 the French, North Europeans, the Chinese. It works when you have

13:58 international mobilization.

14:00 So France won't set the example on the wealth tax.

14:04 France is one of the top France that has the heaviest taxation.

14:08 We're going to set an example by having, for example, the minimum

14:11 tax. So I call on for mobilization, help us go to the

14:15 countries that don't have any tax, for example, on air tickets,

14:19 help us mobilize with the International Maritime

14:24 Organization, so that we have a tax with China on maritime

14:28 transport. And a year ago, there was a slogan was socialism in one

14:33 country. That doesn't work. And taxation in one country doesn't

14:38 work either. It's not international taxation.

14:42 So just to mobilize the private sector, the other point is, yes,

14:45 creating an international tax for Africa. That's what we need.

14:50 Mr. President, there's a big absentee at the Paris summit,

14:55 Russia, can you move forward on your agenda without one of the

15:00 key players, one of the major producers of energy in the world?

15:04 Well, yes, here we have an agenda, which seeks to say that,

15:08 which tells us that we don't we mustn't choose between climate

15:12 and fighting global poverty, biodiversity, each country has to

15:16 be respected in its path, we need more public finance, and we

15:20 need more private sector funders. These are the main

15:21 conclusion of the summit with very, very specific measures to

15:25 back it up. So who do we need for that we need the United

15:28 States, China, the G20, the major emerging countries and the

15:34 poorest countries, Russia. The G77, which represents those

15:40 countries, Russia is part of the G77. And in several respects,

15:43 and China is one of its prominent members. And then the

15:46 Cuban president spoke yesterday, he's chairing the G77. What does

15:52 this summit tell us? It tells us about the isolation of dialogue

15:56 with Russia. I think Russia has to stop the war, it has to

16:00 respect international law.

16:01 Mr. President, if Putin calls you tomorrow morning, should you

16:07 pick up the phone or not?

16:08 Well, of course, I'll take his call. I have no reason to call

16:12 him at present. There's a Ukrainian counter offensive, the

16:15 time will come, I hope, when there will be negotiations on

16:18 Ukrainian terms. But if he calls to propose something, then I'll

16:22 take I'll take the call, of course, because France has always

16:24 sought to facilitate to mediate. But let's be clear, a present

16:28 resumption of a dialogue is only possible if there's respect for

16:32 international law, which is the only way we can live in peace.

16:34 Russia, you're quite right, like other major countries, which

16:37 are here, and Nigeria is a major oil producer, it's 250 million

16:43 inhabitants on the planet. India refines oil, hydro, all these

16:52 countries have to be accompanied in the transition and Russia has

16:55 to be one of those countries. So the foundation for this, the

16:59 countries that we need in order to make these changes.

17:01 For you, Mr. President, Russia today, is it an enemy, notably

17:08 in Africa?

17:09 I don't like these terms. That's not what diplomacy is about. At

17:16 present, Russia, of its own will, has put himself in a

17:21 situation where it no longer respects international law,

17:23 where basically it's become one of the only colonial powers of

17:28 the 21st century, waging a colonial war against its

17:32 neighbour, Ukraine. And it's destabilising influence in

17:35 Africa through private militia, which are predators, which

17:40 conduct, which wage atrocities against the civilian population,

17:45 as we've seen, through Vardin in the Central African Republic. So

17:48 Russia's choices today mean that it's not playing a beneficial

17:53 role for the international community.

17:55 Thank you, Mr. President, for this interview.

17:58 Thank you very much. I always show charts, you can show this

18:06 to your viewers. But when you talk about climate and

18:09 development, this is done by the French Development Agency, the

18:13 AFD. We'll let you keep it, but it shows where the challenges

18:17 are. You see, here, we're in this category, we're among the

18:22 wealthiest countries, and we're among those that pollute the

18:25 most. And the idea is to ensure that there is an agreement

18:30 between emerging countries and the wealthy. If we have an

18:33 agreement whereby India, China, Nigeria can develop without

18:38 polluting, that means we'll win the climate battle at global

18:41 level. So the poorest countries, the developing countries have to

18:45 be helped on fighting against poverty, but they're far from

18:48 being the biggest polluters. The key is that we reduce our

18:51 emissions and that we enable the major emerging powers to have

18:54 their own development without increasing their emissions.

18:56 Is that the reason that you wanted to take part in the BRICS

18:59 summit?

18:59 Yes, it's a key point. Exactly. That's why we have these JETPs

19:05 with South Africa, with Senegal, and tomorrow with Nigeria. And I

19:08 propose this with Brazil. That's the key for the planet. We have

19:12 to focus on the essential points. The essential point is

19:14 an agreement between the emerging countries and the

19:16 wealthy countries and to get out of coal.

19:20 Thanks for watching us. France Info, RFI and France 24.

19:28 [BLANK_AUDIO]

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