The Recall Man - Making Waves - video Dailymotion

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A confused man claims to have witnessed a murder, so the police turn to forensic psychologist Dr Joe Aston. Stars Jeremy Swift.  Do you enjoy the variety on Oldtuberadio? Like, Share and Subscribe to be notified of our new shows #radio #crime #thriller #drama To Support this channel please visit https://www.buymeacoffee.com/oldtuberadio https://ko-fi.com/oldtuberadio98 https://www.patreon.com/oldtuberadio https://locals.com/Oldtuberadio

Transcript

00:00Dr. Aston, could you clarify for the court the nature of your professional relationship with the police?

00:16I'm a forensic psychologist specialising in memory attached to the police force for a six-month period.

00:22I understand that this is something of an experiment.

00:25It's a trial period.

00:27Is this trial period proving successful?

00:30Perhaps that's for others to decide.

00:32Shall we put it another way? Do you feel that the trial period has been successful?

00:37I would like to think so.

00:38We'd all like to think that we've been successful, Dr. Aston, but in a court of law we have to deal with what can be verified and substantiated rather than what we hope and wish for.

00:49So, Dr. Aston, when did you first meet Mr. Thompson?

00:54The Recall Man. Making Waves by David Napfine. With Jeremy Swift as Dr. Joe Aston.

01:02Joe?

01:03I thought you were meeting Helen off the train.

01:06You had to cancel.

01:07That's a shame. But, lucky for me, you're just the man I want.

01:10Am I?

01:10Don't look so worried. It's nothing to do with reports.

01:14You see, I was just leaving when the desk sergeant spots me and says, Jeff, you're just the man we're looking for.

01:19And are you?

01:19The thing is, Joe, a bloke's just walked into the station, sackless, claiming that he suddenly remembered something that happened five years ago.

01:28A young girl, Rebecca Stonehouse, was found floating in the T's.

01:32There was a big investigation. It was all over the papers, but in the end, the coroner recorded an open verdict.

01:38Well, now in strolls Charlie Boy and says that he saw someone push her off Newport Bridge.

01:42Now, why do I know what's coming next?

01:44Because you're very perceptive.

01:46I can't just leave it, so, well, I'm wondering if you could be with us when I talk to him.

01:52Nothing formal, and, well, maybe you could tell us whether this is bullshit or not.

01:57I'll buy you a pint.

01:59Come on, then.

02:00Thanks, Joe.

02:03So, why did the desk sergeant want you in particular?

02:06I found the body, didn't I?

02:08I wasn't even on duty.

02:09I'd pull this top drawer totty from your arm, and I was beginning to open investigations when I saw Rebecca, 15-year-old.

02:16Lovely-looking lass till I water got her.

02:18And what happened to the lass from your arm?

02:20Dumped us the following day.

02:21I suppose the romance had gone.

02:23Yeah, as soon as she knew I wasn't butters later signing.

02:27To be honest, Jeff, I'm not sure how much I can help.

02:29You know what to watch.

02:30You don't have to stay long, and if he's wasting our time, he'll soon get his ticket.

02:35Look, I've said.

02:39I'd just like a little more detail, George.

02:41Who did you say you were?

02:43I'm Dr. Aston, and I'm just...

02:44Oh, a doctor, eh?

02:45That's right, but I'm not...

02:46Look, I do remember.

02:47I do.

02:48I wish I hadn't, but I did.

02:50And that's it.

02:51Fair enough, George, but I need more than you just saying that you saw something.

02:54I need to know exactly what you did see.

02:56Was that tape on?

02:57Yeah.

02:58He pushed her over!

02:59Not so loud, George.

03:00Yeah, well, I want to make sure you know.

03:02Now, if I could hear the full story.

03:04It's not a story.

03:05Okay, George, okay, it's not a story.

03:06It's what happened, I'm telling you.

03:08So tell me what happened.

03:10I was eating a parmesan, right?

03:12And?

03:13Give us a bloody chance!

03:15I was eating a parmesan.

03:17I remembered.

03:19And that's it.

03:20Bloody hell.

03:21What did you say?

03:21What do you remember, George?

03:23What happened?

03:25Will you not listen?

03:27I ate me parmesan.

03:29I was on Newport Bridge.

03:30Tonight?

03:31And five years ago.

03:32I threw up tonight.

03:34And that night.

03:35All over this car.

03:36Well, that night I did.

03:37Not tonight.

03:38Man and this lass.

03:40Right?

03:40Snogging.

03:42Not tonight, like, but that night.

03:44And then when I looked, it was just him.

03:48What do you see?

03:49She'd gone.

03:51In the river.

03:53He looked at me when I was looking at him.

03:56So I went home.

03:58Can you describe him?

03:58No.

04:00No.

04:03And home is where?

04:04True Row.

04:05True Row?

04:06Nice place.

04:07So why are you here?

04:08Oh, because she was pushed in.

04:10I mean, why are you in Middlesbrough?

04:12I'm visiting me mum.

04:13Tonight?

04:13Yeah.

04:14Yeah, you must visit your mum.

04:16Lives off Parliament Road.

04:17So why were you walking across Newport Bridge?

04:19I always do.

04:21I see.

04:22So why didn't you report what you saw?

04:25I am.

04:26But why didn't you report it when it happened?

04:28Well, I heard about the lass later.

04:30It was in all the papers.

04:32I was pissed.

04:34And I was sent offshore.

04:36Well, do I make a statement then?

04:37We will be asking you to do that, but first we want you to...

04:39Can I use the bug?

04:41In the first series of tests I did with Mr Thompson,

04:43his performance on language, semantic knowledge,

04:46and general intelligence tests were satisfactory.

04:49These tests are done at the start to ascertain the best approach to recall.

04:54And would you use other tests?

04:56When necessary.

04:57I'd like to come back to that later, if I may.

05:03When did you feel that the memory was genuine?

05:06After the first session.

05:07Which lasted?

05:08An hour.

05:09So it wasn't immediately obvious?

05:11No, there were things to clarify.

05:13But even then, you only felt it could be genuine.

05:16On what evidence did you reach this tentative conclusion?

05:20A preliminary conclusion is reached after the tests and during conversation.

05:24What said, how it said, demeanour.

05:28You first met Mr Thompson when he was drunk.

05:31How did you establish the need for further interviews?

05:34Previous cases, my experience, my judgement.

05:37You must be an extremely good judge of character, Dr Aston.

05:44I'm not doing my blocks again, am I?

05:46Made me feel like one of them backward kids.

05:48At the moment, I'd just like to talk to you.

05:50About what?

05:51What you saw that night.

05:53Well, I made a statement.

05:55It would really help if you could take me through it again.

05:59Can you describe the man on the bridge?

06:02Well, of course I can't.

06:03It was dark.

06:04What's going on?

06:05Okay.

06:06And these sessions will work on bringing your memory back so that you can describe the events

06:11of that night in more detail.

06:12Oh, fair enough.

06:14Because I believe in what's right, me.

06:16Because there's right and there's wrong.

06:18Right?

06:19So, let's see if we can do what's right.

06:22Can you tell me what you saw that night?

06:26The man and the lass.

06:27Where had you been before you saw the man and the lass?

06:30Well, I had a drink.

06:31But I wasn't sackless.

06:33What was the last pub you drank in?

06:34The Yanker.

06:36Well, I always end up there.

06:37Always?

06:38Well, it's my local.

06:39When I visit my mum.

06:40What was it like?

06:42Chocker.

06:43Uh-huh.

06:44Even for a weekday.

06:46Do you know how many people there?

06:48Some.

06:49Your friends?

06:50Uh, some.

06:52So, what did you do when you left the pub?

06:54Got a Parmesan.

06:56Tell me about the Yanker.

06:58Oh, it's got a reputation.

07:00What sort of reputation?

07:02You know.

07:04Uh-huh.

07:06So, you bought a Parmesan?

07:07From a kebab place.

07:09And?

07:09Went on to Newport Bridge.

07:11And tell me what you saw on Newport Bridge.

07:14The man and the lass.

07:15What were they doing?

07:17Snogging.

07:19What are you writing?

07:21Notes.

07:22Were you still eating?

07:24Uh, I think so.

07:26What happened after you finished eating?

07:28I threw up.

07:29What could you see?

07:31It was dark.

07:32What could you hear?

07:34Me.

07:35Puking on the car.

07:37Can you describe the car?

07:39Yeah.

07:43Posh.

07:46When did you know about Rebecca Stonehouse?

07:49Mum sends the purpose.

07:51I was in Nigeria.

07:53Even then, I didn't make the connection.

07:56She was a tart, wasn't she?

07:58He's over-fond of the pop.

08:10And that affects his memory.

08:12He says they were snogging.

08:13Even in Middlesbrough, they'll leave it a day before they top the lovers.

08:16How long had Rebecca been going in the anchor?

08:18Two months.

08:19Did her parents know?

08:21That she was a would-be prostitute.

08:22My feeling is that they did, but they didn't want to know.

08:24Oh, well-off, big house.

08:27The sort of people that make you wear slippers before walking on the lawn.

08:29Was it you that interviewed them?

08:30Yeah.

08:32They'd had a row with Rebecca.

08:33She stormed out.

08:35Then they had a row about Rebecca.

08:36Her mum went to look for her.

08:37Then her dad did the same in his car.

08:39Said he felt guilty.

08:40Did they know where to go?

08:42Well, obviously not.

08:43They would have found her.

08:44He got back late and went to bed.

08:46She got back in the early hours of the morning, couldn't sleep,

08:48and went looking again before he got up for work.

08:50She was an only child.

08:52Might be useful to talk to them.

08:53She was my first dead buddy.

08:56I wasn't even in uniform.

08:59The new D.I.'s after you, by the way.

09:03Are you still eating?

09:05Yeah, I think so.

09:07What happened after you finished eating?

09:09I threw up.

09:11What could you see?

09:13It was dark.

09:14What could you hear?

09:16Me.

09:17Puking on the car.

09:19Can you describe the car?

09:20Posh.

09:27How quickly do you expect to make progress with an interviewee?

09:30It depends.

09:32I ask because the prosecution claims that the accused pushed Rebecca into the river,

09:36yet George did not see this, nor did he hear a splash.

09:40Why is that?

09:41In subsequent interviews...

09:42Which we shall return to later, Dr. Astin.

09:45Recall becomes more precise with each session.

09:49What is the significance of eating a parmesan?

09:53It's the activity that triggered the recall.

09:56One of many things that can trigger recall.

09:58Of course.

09:58And are there many things that can damage memory?

10:01Yes.

10:01Such as a knock on the head or encephalitis?

10:06Yes.

10:07Do these apply to Mr. Thompson?

10:08No.

10:09What about alcohol, age, occupation as causes of memory loss?

10:14There can be factors.

10:16Could they explain why he took so long to make the connection between what he saw that night

10:21and what he later read in the papers?

10:23That's not uncommon.

10:24Of course.

10:26Given that your persistence with Mr. Thompson, even though his recall is sporadic and superficial,

10:32shows great dedication, have you ever had to acknowledge that your initial diagnosis was wrong,

10:37that the memory is false, or that the interviewee has been fooling you?

10:42False memory does come to light eventually.

10:44As for being fooled, there was no apparent reason why he should want to do that.

10:49You constructed a strategy that was constantly modified in the light of developments with George

10:53and developments in the police investigation?

10:56Yes.

10:57Developments consistent with the initial premise that it was a memory worth investigating?

11:01Yes.

11:02The correct strategy produces the right result?

11:04Yeah.

11:05A self-fulfilling prophecy?

11:08You're placing a specific interpretation on the word strategy.

11:11Am I?

11:12Yeah.

11:13Don't you place a specific interpretation on Mr. Thompson's words?

11:18Let's just say the re-opening of an old case always touches nerves.

11:22Including yours?

11:23It's extra work.

11:24Because Rebecca was young, we pulled out all the stops, but it still wasn't enough for some.

11:29It was a sod of a case then, and it's a sod of a case now.

11:32Just my luck.

11:33George walked in when he did.

11:35Blame it on the Parmesan.

11:36He's just seeking a bit of attention.

11:38Get it all the time.

11:39His kids are set fire to empty buildings to attract attention.

11:42Now they report crimes that didn't happen.

11:44Well, you don't know...

11:45They get attention, but without using so much energy.

11:48So you don't want to hear what I've got?

11:49Yes.

11:54Okay.

11:57Describe the man.

11:59Average height.

12:00Same height as definite.

12:03Dark clothes.

12:04Can you tell me where his arms were?

12:06Around her.

12:07On her shoulders?

12:09Did you see her being pushed over?

12:11Well, she must have been.

12:13There were two of them.

12:13He walks away.

12:15She floats in the river.

12:16Common sense.

12:18I did see it.

12:19The subsequent interview, Dr. Aston, and still nothing of any substance.

12:26Does it usually take this long?

12:28That depends on how the memory is functioning.

12:30A clearer picture was beginning to emerge.

12:33A more detailed description of clothing, of how they stood, where they stood.

12:37It became definite about their respective heights.

12:39Which, conveniently, the accused conforms to.

12:42If you played the whole of that tape, it would become apparent that Mr. Thompson's memory of that night was beginning to return.

12:47But we've agreed, Dr. Aston, the tape is purely for illustration and not evidence.

12:53After this interview, Mr. Thompson went offshore for five weeks.

12:57Didn't that make the work more difficult?

12:58I used a different technique.

13:00Could you tell the court?

13:02George was flying to Trinidad to join a dive support vessel.

13:06He would spend 28 days in saturation, which is when a team of divers live on a chamber on the seabed.

13:13This is a self-contained world with little or no outside distraction.

13:18I asked George to use this time to write down the events of that night in his own words.

13:23I asked him to write every day, whatever came into his head, each piece of writing with a date and time and with no rewriting.

13:31I would have used this technique anyway, as it was clear that George didn't find the interviews easy.

13:35As you've pointed out.

13:37Did he do what was asked?

13:39Yes.

13:40Surely the recall process can't be monitored if you're not working with him.

13:45Isn't there a danger that imagination runs riot?

13:48George Thompson is not the most imaginative of men.

13:51But we're all capable of fooling ourselves.

13:53I created a tight structure with safeguards.

13:56But was it foolproof, Dr. Aston?

13:59With all due respect, not even the law is foolproof.

14:05Joe Aston?

14:09Sorry?

14:11Well, the face is fatter, but you've still got that vacant look.

14:16Well?

14:18Bloody hell.

14:20Jane, Jane, Forbes.

14:22How are you doing?

14:23Not so bad.

14:25Let me get you a drink.

14:26No, I've got one.

14:27Sit down, though.

14:29So?

14:30You're back in the borough, then?

14:32For the moment.

14:33Is that right?

14:34And you?

14:35Never left.

14:37You still living over in Winnie Banks?

14:39That's a long time ago.

14:43That's nice to see you, Jane.

14:44Good.

14:45And you're looking well?

14:47Well, I always could use make-up.

14:51So are you waiting for someone?

14:53Just having a quiet drink after work.

14:56You're near.

14:57And you? Are you, er...

14:59Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Later.

15:01Is this your local, then?

15:03You could say that.

15:05You having another?

15:06Oh, yeah. Let me.

15:07No, no, it's okay, Joe.

15:08You spilled the last one you brought me.

15:10Do you remember?

15:11All over me brand-new miniskirt.

15:12I wouldn't care, but I'd only just got one word.

15:14I tripped over.

15:15And just at the moment, when I was trying to be sophisticated,

15:18no wonder you'd never went out with me again.

15:20It wasn't because of that.

15:22Why, then?

15:24Paul Roberts.

15:26Oh, he fancied himself.

15:28And he didn't wear one of me best skirts.

15:30I said I was sorry.

15:31Yes, I know. Every 30 seconds.

15:33Red.

15:34I remember it was a red dress.

15:37Do you?

15:38Yeah, you always suited red.

15:39I have never worn red.

15:41Makes me look like a post box.

15:43I'm thinking of some other poor girl you splattered with bolognese sauce.

15:47Where on to Paul Roberts?

15:49Killed on his motorbike.

15:52The day before our wedding anniversary.

15:56Oh, I'm sorry.

15:57I'm not.

15:58You knocked me about.

16:01Anyway, God, I'm out under the bridge.

16:04So, what are you doing up here?

16:06I work with people who've lost their memory.

16:08Really?

16:09So you'd be your own best patient, then?

16:13Maybe.

16:15I'd best be off, anyway.

16:17I haven't eaten yet.

16:19It's been good to see you, Joe.

16:21Er, Jane.

16:23What?

16:24I was wondering if you might...

16:26Well, what I was thinking was...

16:28Oh, no, no.

16:29It's a nice thought, Joe, but...

16:31You know.

16:32Oh, no, I wasn't going to ask you out.

16:35All right.

16:37Not sure if that makes me feel better or not.

16:39No.

16:40I'll tell you what it is, Jane.

16:42How long have you been drinking here?

16:44Why?

16:45Do you remember a young lass called Rebecca?

16:47Rebecca Stonehouse.

16:49Poor cow.

16:50Why?

16:51Well, I've been asked to help find out what happened.

16:53Who, by?

16:54A family?

16:55Something's happened.

16:56What?

16:57I can't say.

16:59Look, I've got to go, Jane, and you've got things to do, but can I see you again?

17:05It depends.

17:06On what?

17:07On how I'm feeling next time I'll bump into you, which might well be Thursday.

17:11This is what George wrote on the plane.

17:19The two of them were on the opposite side of the bridge from me.

17:23She had a short skirt on.

17:25Now to it.

17:26It was white.

17:27Light, anyway.

17:29Looked like they were in a clinch.

17:31The same height.

17:32She had thick hair.

17:34Leather jacket.

17:35Smart one.

17:36He must have been watching them for ages to remember our lad.

17:38Not necessarily.

17:39He hasn't made the connection, has he?

17:40He keeps saying they were snogging or whatever, and yet he also says he pushed her over.

17:44He's having a laugh.

17:45No.

17:46Now, the white skirt, he could have got from the papers.

17:49Is a man in a leather jacket in any of the witness statements?

17:52No.

17:53There was one bloke we were looking for, but never traced.

17:55It would have been seen talking to her in the pub, but he didn't wear a leather jacket.

17:59Oh, maybe it didn't register.

18:01That would have been about ten to eleven.

18:03The other night, I walked from the pub, bought a Parmesan, and walked to Newport Bridge.

18:08It took twenty-five minutes.

18:09I had ten minutes for being pissed, and I reckon George would have got the bridge between ten to midnight and midnight.

18:14And in that time, Rebecca left the man from the pub and was with someone else.

18:17We don't know that.

18:18Nobody saw Rebecca and the bloke together after they left the pub.

18:21And no one saw her between the pub and Newport Bridge.

18:24We've only heard George's word that she was on the bridge.

18:26All we know for certain is that Rebecca was in the pub and then in the river.

18:30How long's she been in the river?

18:32She went in some time that night.

18:34So, what's this I hear about you going to the anchor?

18:37That's right.

18:38Nice, isn't it?

18:40There are pubs like that everywhere, and you make of them what you will.

18:42I asked a few people about Rebecca.

18:45Go careful, Joe.

18:47You're not a copper.

18:49I meant to tell you, Billy West's in court today.

18:52That was just a bad case of selective memory.

18:54I thought I'd be needed.

18:55I don't know why you were so keen to go to court.

18:58That would have been an experience.

19:00When her parents drove around looking for her, did they have any idea of where to go?

19:05It might be interesting to find out.

19:07What do you think we asked them at the time?

19:09Clear night.

19:12On the bridge, the wind was sharp.

19:15I hunched up, still went through us.

19:18I was wearing jeans and a shirt.

19:20Good in the pub, but not out there.

19:22You get used to the cold.

19:24I stopped to look at the river.

19:25I'd hate to fall in there.

19:27Much better to fall in the sea.

19:29It's a quicker way to go, and there's no land nearby to tease you.

19:32I stopped looking at the river, and I saw them.

19:35They were on the opposite side of the bridge to me, but down a bit.

19:39They were at it like steam hammers.

19:41I couldn't see his face.

19:43She had a short skirt on, really short, that lasses wear no matter the weather.

19:48It was white, the sort of white you notice.

19:51He was a little taller, but maybe not.

19:55Thick hair, light leather jacket, really smart, arms on shoulders.

19:58I envied him.

19:59I started walking back, threw up over this car, posh car.

20:04I liked that.

20:06I looked up, and there was just him looking at me.

20:09I started walking quicker.

20:11I looked again.

20:12He'd gone into thin air.

20:15That was written on the boat by Mr Thompson and emailed to you prior to saturation.

20:20Is that correct, Dr Astin?

20:22Yes.

20:23They were at it like steam hammers.

20:25It's a very evocative phrase for someone with no imagination.

20:30What did you think when you read this, Dr Astin?

20:32More detail had emerged.

20:34But does greater detail mean greater accuracy?

20:37Not necessarily.

20:38Does repetition of detail mean that the detail is accurate?

20:42Not necessarily.

20:43So how do you know that a detail is accurate?

20:46When it's corroborated.

20:48We call it evidence.

20:50All this detail, but where is the significant detail?

20:53For example, the splash as a body hits the water.

20:56Memory doesn't return fully and all-in-one goal.

20:58I'm not suggesting it does.

21:00He also stopped to vomit.

21:01So he couldn't hear the fall.

21:03Remarkable coincidence.

21:05People respond to different stimuli and remember in different ways.

21:09A musician is more likely to respond to sound, whereas George responds to visual stimuli.

21:15Then why are his descriptions so vague?

21:18However, if we look at this as a piece of creative writing...

21:23Which it isn't.

21:25Well, that's for the jury to decide, Dr Astin.

21:29Why doesn't George mention the parmesan anymore?

21:33The eating of the parmesan and the vomiting were triggers for the memory,

21:37but don't play a significant part in the actual event that's being recalled.

21:40A minor detail, then?

21:42No.

21:42A major detail?

21:43No.

21:44Then what sort of detail is it, Dr Astin?

21:46For the accused, the status of this detail is crucial,

21:49and I would expect an expert witness to give an answer that's unambiguous.

21:56The workings of memory are complex.

21:58That is precisely my point, Dr Astin.

22:02I'm not sure with Joe.

22:06Whether you can remember or whether you can help.

22:08She was a nice lass and we looked out for her.

22:11Not at first.

22:13But she came in the pub that first time, even though she was with a mate.

22:15You could tell.

22:17You can.

22:18Something was said to her, but she came back.

22:21She kept coming back.

22:22A posh kid, so what the hell was she playing at?

22:25You don't go on the game through choice.

22:26If you did, there'd be an MVQ.

22:28I want to prove something, I suppose.

22:30She wasn't properly on the game, you see, and that pissed off some of the girls.

22:34Did it?

22:35Don't go down that road, Joe.

22:37When she died like that, she became one of us.

22:40And if they've reopened the investigation...

22:42Yes.

22:42Yeah, well, why haven't they talked to us?

22:44What's going on?

22:45Somebody now says they saw what happened.

22:47Who?

22:48I can't say.

22:49Shall we go in?

22:51I'm not sure.

22:52If she was murdered, I want to kill her court, Jane.

22:55That's all.

22:56Well, can't we talk somewhere else?

22:58No, because this pub is where you knew her from.

23:00Oh, talk and talk, but in the end it'll be the same old story.

23:04Nothing happens.

23:06So, was it as busy as this when Rebecca came in?

23:09Yeah.

23:10What's in your bag?

23:11A tape recorder.

23:13You can't record this.

23:14It's for my own reference.

23:15It's nothing official.

23:16Oh, God, people will wonder what's going on.

23:19Tell them I'm doing a reminiscence project with the elderly.

23:23Cheeky sod.

23:24I'd like to go back to that night.

23:28Don't look at me like that.

23:29I'm not a policeman.

23:30Don't talk like one, then.

23:33Yeah, though, it might have been a bit earlier than that.

23:35It might have been about seven-ish.

23:36Okay.

23:37And so, when you came in, was Rebecca already in there?

23:40I doubt it.

23:41She always came in late.

23:42Can you remember what she was wearing?

23:44Not what she wore on the posters.

23:46They had her in a white skirt, brown bomber jacket, high boots.

23:50She had more style than that.

23:51That's what people noticed.

23:53Short skirt, yes.

23:54But not boots and bomber jacket.

23:56She looked at right slapper on the posters,

23:58and they didn't get that description from anyone in here.

24:00It came from somewhere.

24:02Who did she talk to?

24:04No one ever talked to her.

24:06Did she talk to you?

24:08Say hello.

24:09What about the other girls?

24:10The same.

24:11We might be in the same business, but we don't have a company song.

24:14Having said that, Kerry talked to her more than more.

24:18Could I talk to Kerry?

24:19I'll see.

24:20Don't hold your breath.

24:22She's a bit of an airhead.

24:24Did anyone come in looking for her that night?

24:26Not that I noticed.

24:28Why?

24:29Should there have been?

24:30I've no idea.

24:33You've never said anything, have you, Joe?

24:35About what I do.

24:37You'll have your reasons, Jane.

24:39I do.

24:41We all went to the funeral, you know.

24:44And we were all ignored by the family.

24:45They didn't want to know.

24:47They didn't want to know the lass that we knew.

24:50Oh, God, it frightened us what happened.

24:52Do you think she was murdered?

24:54She died.

24:55And that's enough.

24:58What time did you leave the pub?

25:00Before she did.

25:01Where's an Irish place to buy a parmesan?

25:03Is that your idea of taking a girl to dinner?

25:05They were leaning back and he was pressing against her and she had her arms around him on his shoulders.

25:19How much longer, Joe?

25:22I had to leave them to it.

25:24Though I did envy him as she was a bit of a looker.

25:27Can you press against her, Jeff?

25:32I think I can manage that.

25:34That's good.

25:38Katrina, can you put your arms around Jeff tighter so the arms reach up to the shoulder?

25:44What was that?

25:45She says she doesn't fancy me that much.

25:49Understandable.

25:53Thanks, Katrina.

25:54You can go back to the car now.

25:58So I started walking back towards Parliament Road.

26:02But after a short bit, I threw up.

26:05And there was just him looking at me.

26:09Can you look at me, Jeff?

26:12Thanks.

26:16Can you come here a minute?

26:20So I started walking quicker.

26:23And when I looked again, he'd gone.

26:28Thought he was supposed to be fifth.

26:32Have we finished?

26:33Yeah.

26:34Thanks.

26:35He threw up over a car parked about here on the bridge.

26:38Illegally.

26:39I've checked back.

26:40There's nothing about a car booked or abandoned here.

26:42If he pulled up quickly to catch Rebecca...

26:44There'd be no snogging.

26:46Well, take a look at this photo of you and Katrina.

26:49Oh, very nice.

26:50In this light, that could be a snog or it could be a struggle.

26:53When I was a kid, there was no difference.

26:55It explains the confusion in George's mind if he saw something like that.

26:59When he was seventh?

27:00He saw the man and the girl.

27:02Then he saw the man on his own.

27:03Then there was no man.

27:05Where did the man go?

27:06So in one bound, he was...

27:07What time did it happen?

27:08About this summer night, according to the post-mortem.

27:12You can go home if you want to.

27:14I'm supposed to be working with you.

27:16And you have.

27:17And thanks.

27:18Now, go on.

27:19Katrina's way.

27:21I fancied her for ages.

27:23Something about her uniform that always gets me going.

27:25She doesn't wear a uniform.

27:27She can be persuaded.

27:28Oh, God.

27:30So, why did you go to the anchor again?

27:33An old school friend gets in there.

27:35She knew Rebecca.

27:36Name?

27:37Jane.

27:37Jane Forbes.

27:39That mouthy cow.

27:41She kept saying we didn't do enough.

27:43She's not reliable, Joe.

27:44Unless you pay her.

27:45I think different.

27:46Sorry.

27:47She's a friend.

27:48But that can make things worse.

27:49It can compromise the case.

27:51If there is one.

27:52We need more than a drunk and a tart.

27:56We have a car.

27:57A man in a leather jacket.

27:58And figments of an imagination.

28:00Look.

28:00Karen thinks this is important.

28:02Promoted to super.

28:03Wants to make a mark like the new D.I.

28:05If a new case comes up tomorrow, which one will you work on?

28:09The one on told them.

28:10Is that right?

28:12What is it about this case, Joe?

28:15I'm just fascinated by the way we can suddenly remember.

28:18One small thing can take us back to another time and another place.

28:23And we still don't know how Rebecca ended up in the river.

28:27So you asked D.C. Patton and W.P.C. Wells to recreate what Mr. Thompson claimed to have seen?

28:33Yes.

28:34Where was Mr. Thompson?

28:36He was offshore.

28:37He wasn't there?

28:38No.

28:39So this was not an accurate recreation of that night?

28:42It's not claimed to be.

28:43I used photographs to help build a picture and to help me understand what the witness may have seen.

28:48As George wasn't there, I used his text to help with this.

28:51But as he wasn't there to amend or modify what you're doing, it's up to you to make the decisions about positions of the actors, angles of shot, etc.

29:00And that allows me to ask myself questions about what the witness has said, so that the process can be refined.

29:06For example, the difference between a snog and a struggle.

29:09Are those medical terms, Dr. Aston?

29:11I'm reminded of a film director bringing to life someone else's story.

29:18Is that what it's like?

29:20I don't deal in fiction.

29:21So you assume that what is presented to you is fact?

29:24No.

29:24I attempt to establish what is fact.

29:27As a layman, it seems to me that the photographs confirm to you and Mr. Thompson what you and Mr. Thompson want confirmed.

29:34It's a hypothesis.

29:36There's constant modification responding to what emerges in recall.

29:39To suit to your hypothesis?

29:41I'm part of a team.

29:42Like a film director, aren't you taking George's story in a specific direction?

29:46No.

29:46You said earlier that the memory is complex.

29:49But haven't you reduced it to a simple story in an attempt to lead us to the conclusions you want us to reach?

29:56Aren't you doing the same?

29:57Well, it was useful.

30:02Good.

30:03Why didn't Kerry say anything at the time?

30:05I know she did drugs then.

30:07Why?

30:07She said something now.

30:08She saw us talking.

30:10Wondered who you were.

30:11And she's seen you round and about.

30:13You saw Rebecca leave with a man, and Kerry's sure a woman was driving the car that stopped by Rebecca on Union Street.

30:19The man I saw was definitely a man.

30:21Unless she was an East German shock putter.

30:23And would Kerry be that certain about a car?

30:25If it was top of the range, yes.

30:27A bit of a petrol head, is Kerry.

30:29A petrol head and an airhead?

30:31Lethal.

30:32No coppers have talked to us, Joe.

30:34Do they take it as seriously as you?

30:35Yeah.

30:37So, who's this bloke who saw what happened?

30:39I can't say.

30:41I like this with your wife.

30:43I can't say.

30:45Rebecca started running when the car appeared.

30:48Why would she do that?

30:50Scared, obviously.

30:52Do you want another drink?

30:53Did the driver of the car kill Rebecca?

30:56And was the driver a man or a woman?

31:00Have I been bloody stupid?

31:02Where are you going?

31:03Describe Rebecca's hair.

31:05Long.

31:06Fine.

31:06Thanks, Jane.

31:07See you later.

31:08Joe!

31:09Joe!

31:16Put this in perspective, Joe.

31:17Talk to Kerry Moore, Jeff.

31:19That's all I'm asking.

31:20I will, but you get that report done.

31:21It's on my desk.

31:22Karen's got to forward everything to the CBS.

31:24I'll get it to her after I've seen George.

31:26George Thompson is not a priority.

31:28He is, and so is Kerry.

31:30Can you trust a dope bit like Kerry?

31:31She notices cars.

31:33And if she's right about a woman driving and George is right about the car...

31:36George hasn't mentioned a woman.

31:37I think he has.

31:38That's why I'm going to talk to him now, while you interview Kerry.

31:41Tell Karen everything will be on her desk before I see her.

31:43You'll see her before I do.

31:44Well, tell me what Kerry says immediately.

31:55It's all in them notebooks.

31:57What I'd like to do, George, is take sections of...

31:59I hope you'll find him.

32:00It may seem confusing at first.

32:02I should have remembered earlier.

32:04No, the memory doesn't work like that.

32:05I never thought I'd be on the side of a tart.

32:08I'd like you to listen very carefully, George.

32:12I was hit by this blast of wind as I walked onto Newport Bridge.

32:16You don't notice when you're in and out of pubs,

32:19and when you've had a good drink, you ignore it.

32:21Nothing to the winds you get at sea.

32:24Sometimes when you're on the bed, you know it's rough on top,

32:26but you don't know how rough until the dive super pulls the job.

32:32Imagine you've just walked onto the bridge.

32:34The wind hits you.

32:36What do you do?

32:38I'm not with you.

32:39Imagine that night.

32:42I am.

32:43I was hit by this blast of wind.

32:46So?

32:47Well, further on, you've written,

32:50I'd finished eating, then I looked at the river.

32:54Can you describe the river, George?

32:58Not really.

32:59You described it here.

33:00Well, that's what it was, then.

33:02But you can't remember.

33:03I did when I wrote that.

33:05Why don't you tell me now what you can remember?

33:07It's written down.

33:09I'd still like you to tell me, George.

33:12They were on the opposite side of the bridge to me.

33:14I couldn't see the faces.

33:17Describe their hair.

33:18She had thick hair.

33:21Did she?

33:22Yeah.

33:22You said it was windy.

33:24Nearly blew us off the bridge.

33:26Describe what the wind was doing to Rebecca's hair.

33:30Blowing it all over.

33:32Whose hair?

33:33The tarts.

33:34What about the person with thick hair?

33:35Not as much.

33:40Tell me some more.

33:42The hands.

33:44Everywhere.

33:44Like one of them God things they have in Vietnam.

33:47You can't help but look.

33:49I walked away, then I threw up.

33:52Can you describe the car you threw up on?

33:55Haven't I said?

33:56Tell me again.

33:58Pricey.

33:58Stylish.

33:59Parked where it shouldn't.

34:01What colour was it?

34:02It was dark.

34:03A light colour.

34:08After you're thrown up, what did you see?

34:11He was looking at us.

34:13I looked again and he wasn't there.

34:14I wrote all this.

34:16Imagine you're on the bridge.

34:18Why?

34:18It'll help.

34:19Imagine you're on the bridge.

34:22You see the man looking at you.

34:23You turn away.

34:24Yeah.

34:25You look again.

34:26What can you see?

34:26He gone.

34:27Anything else?

34:28The car.

34:31I want to read you some more of what you've written.

34:33As I was walking back towards Parliament Road after puking on the posh car, something made me stop.

34:39I did.

34:40I didn't want to turn round and look, but I did.

34:44She was staring at me.

34:45Standing still and staring at me.

34:47Just her, staring at me.

34:50I walked faster.

34:52I looked again.

34:53There was no one there.

34:56Who was looking at you?

34:58He was.

34:59The man with the car.

35:00Yeah.

35:01But you said she.

35:05Made a mistake.

35:06Was it Rebecca looking at you?

35:08No.

35:09So who was looking at you?

35:11Was it a bloody woman?

35:13What I want to do now, George...

35:14Come on, the lezzies.

35:16Jeez, they should have both gone over.

35:18I mean, some men find girl on girl a turn on, but...

35:20Just describe what you can of this person's appearance.

35:24What I saw is what I wrote.

35:26As you know, Dr. Aston, considerable research has been undertaken into cognitive dysfunction in deep-sea divers.

35:35Yes.

35:36The oil industry finances much of this research, presumably because it's significant.

35:42And Mr. Thompson is a deep-sea diver in the oil industry.

35:45Now, is memory loss a typical symptom of cognitive dysfunction?

35:51Short-term memory loss, yes.

35:52And attentional disorders?

35:54Divers who've been diving for ten years or so often show signs of cognitive dysfunction.

35:59Every time you dive, regardless of how well you follow the decompression tables, inert gas bubbles form,

36:05and some will lodge in the spinal cord, the brain and the lungs.

36:09Over time, these can result in tissue scarring and neurological damage.

36:13George Thompson has been diving for 16 years and Rebecca Stonehouse drowned five years ago.

36:21Mr. Thompson's medical reports indicate scarring and neurological damage.

36:27I've read the medical records.

36:28Would it be safe to assume that continuous diving does not ease the damage?

36:32It would.

36:33However, it's not necessarily enough to impair long-term memory loss.

36:37Could you describe to the court the Corsi-Block test that you used with Mr. Thompson?

36:43Corsi-Blocks are used to test retention of visual-spatial information.

36:48Normal subjects are able to remember sequences of at least four or five items correctly.

36:52How many sequences did Mr. Thompson remember, Dr. Aston?

36:55The highest of three.

36:57And that may indicate attentional disorder?

37:00It may.

37:00Can cognitive dysfunction manifest itself in confabulation?

37:06George Thompson did not confabulate.

37:08Let's say Mr. Thompson did see something that night, but not what he claims to see now.

37:13He saw a couple on the bridge, then read something in the paper, put two and two together to make five.

37:18I don't believe that's the case.

37:19One minute a man did the supposed deed, and the next minute a woman.

37:23Each time the story is presented logically and with certainty.

37:27An indication, I would have thought, of at least mild confabulation.

37:32In his latest statements, George wrote she.

37:35These were written in saturation when he had time to allow the memory to function more fully.

37:39And be more creative.

37:43Can I now ask Dr. Aston what your relationship is with Jane Forbes?

37:48So what did Kerry Moore say?

37:54Well, she's obsessed with cars.

37:59And she's adamant that it was a powder blue Mercedes SO500.

38:02Liked them since she lost her virginity in one.

38:05Earlier model, of course.

38:06Much earlier.

38:07Is it the same car George puked on?

38:09Can you get me a photograph of a Mercedes to show him?

38:11Yeah.

38:12What else did Kerry say?

38:13That the car pulled up and the driver spoke to Rebecca, who then ran off.

38:17Kerry carried on walking.

38:18She then heard the car have her way.

38:19She remembers the sound because it brought back happy memories.

38:22She turned and saw the car spin round the corner towards Cannon Park.

38:26And Newport Bridge.

38:28Can you find out they owned a car like that at the time?

38:30Shouldn't be difficult if it was local.

38:32That'd be great.

38:33I'm still not convinced, Joe.

38:35And Kerry's certain it was a woman?

38:36Yeah, and that you're calling the anchor just after closing.

38:39Looking for Rebecca?

38:40We don't know.

38:41If the driver of the car killed Rebecca, why didn't George see or hear the car drive off?

38:46They'd want to get away.

38:47He was pissed.

38:48He was throwing up.

38:50So they're just vanishing to thin air?

38:51Or into a powder blue Mercedes SL500.

38:57It makes fascinating reading, Mr Thompson.

38:59I'd like to compliment you on your evocative turns of phrase.

39:04Thanks.

39:05But do they describe what actually happened?

39:08It's what I wrote.

39:10I'd like to read an excerpt from one of your notebooks.

39:14She was just staring at me, standing still and staring at me, just her staring at me.

39:21This woman, is she in court?

39:24She's over there.

39:26Elsewhere, you write, they were at it like steam hammers, almost as if they couldn't hang on.

39:31I couldn't see his face, and her face was covered by his face.

39:36I couldn't see his face.

39:38Well, I couldn't then, but I could later.

39:41And you can now?

39:42Yeah.

39:42Even though the accused has changed sex.

39:46You know what I mean.

39:47No, I don't, Mr Thompson, and neither does the court.

39:50Gave you a hard time in there, Joe.

39:54Hmm.

39:55Not as hard a time as Rebecca's parents are having.

39:58He's just staring ahead and won't look at his wife.

40:02What do you expect, Joe?

40:03She pushed her daughter into the river.

40:06Did she mean to?

40:08She sold the car, Sharpish.

40:10Did he know what she'd done?

40:12He didn't want to know.

40:15Jane.

40:16You're a bastard, Joe.

40:18What do you mean?

40:18I was in the public gallery when you were giving evidence.

40:21I thought it was more than someone you vaguely knew from years ago.

40:24I thought it was more than that.

40:25Yeah.

40:26But only as long as I'm useful.

40:27I've been flat out.

40:29So has Jane.

40:30At least I do my bloody job.

40:36So it just came back to you.

40:38That's right.

40:39When you go out for a drink, how much do you drink?

40:41What sort of a question is that?

40:43A reasonable one, Mr Thompson.

40:45Well?

40:46I'm not an alcoholic.

40:47I'm not suggesting that you are.

40:49How much do you drink?

40:50I don't know.

40:51But you enjoy a good session.

40:54I like a drink.

40:56Obviously.

40:57I'm a decent bloke.

40:58I work hard.

41:00You try and do what I do.

41:01It's an interesting occupation.

41:03And there's few that can do it.

41:05Of course.

41:06Now, in your last medical for your diving certificate,

41:09the doctor was concerned that...

41:17George, listen.

41:18It's very difficult to...

41:18Look, I know what the thought in there.

41:20that I'm a sad little tosser.

41:22Never said, but it was meant...

41:23But without you, we never...

41:24Oh, they looked at me as if I was less than nout.

41:26I wanted to do what's right.

41:27And you did.

41:28You asked me to do all that stuff, and I did.

41:31And because of you,

41:32everyone thinks I'm a confused piss head.

41:34It wasn't Dr Aston's fault.

41:35Oh, yeah.

41:36Go on, stick together.

41:37I trusted you, Dr Aston.

41:39I did.

41:39I didn't deserve that.

41:41In front of all those people.

41:43It's the way it is.

41:50You might have known Jim once, but you don't any longer.

41:54If I had your brains, Joe, I'd settle myself in a nice little university.

41:57No need.

41:58I can piss people off anywhere.

42:00But at least there, they dress proper and speak nice.

42:02We'll set off a manslaughter.

42:09Has it proved anything, all this?

42:10Yes.

42:11You can't ignore the past.

42:13Don't let it get to you, Joe.

42:15George didn't have to come into the station that night.

42:17Jane didn't have to talk to you.

42:18Kerry could have kept quiet.

42:20They remembered.

42:21And they wanted to remember.

42:22Look on her mother's face when I was giving evidence.

42:24You want everyone to like you, don't you?

42:27Well, you're doing the wrong thing in the wrong place with the wrong people for that.

42:30So I say.

42:30You're stuck to your guns, Joe.

42:32Nothing wrong with that.

42:34Your mum always said that being right made you feel good.

42:37And my mum always said clean underwear made you feel good.

42:55In Making Waves by David Napthine,

42:58Dr. Joe Astin was played by Jeremy Swift,

43:02The Defence Council by Andrew Harrison,

43:04George by James Gaddis,

43:06Jane by Elizabeth Carling,

43:09and DC Jeff Patton by Paul Brennan.

43:12The director was Toby Swift.

43:14The Defence Chamber of gemacht...

43:15The Defence Council by Stephenfilm

43:25We made parts of the Deadlyball

43:26The Defence Council by Michael

43:32We made parts of the deadlyllised

43:35The наход�ues done a large amount of potion

The Recall Man - Making Waves

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