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00:00Today's total victory in Jackson's Child Molestation Trial.
00:04How Michael's really doing right now and more.
00:06Thomas Mesereau for the hour with your phone calls.
00:09A Primetime Exclusive next on Larry King Live.
00:20He comes to us from Santa Maria, California.
00:23His great victory there yesterday, a shutout victory.
00:26By the way, Tom, on your skills on cross-examination, Loyola Law Professor Lori Levinson said you're the best she's ever seen.
00:35Is that an art or a science?
00:38It's really an art, Larry, and I'm very flattered by the comment.
00:42I don't know if it's well-deserved, but it is an art.
00:45It's something that you're always learning about, you never completely master, and you have to always be open-minded about how to do it.
00:51How did you get this case?
00:53I had known Randy Jackson for many years.
00:58Initially, when the search of Neverland took place, I did get a call about flying to Las Vegas to meet Michael Jackson.
01:07I could not do it then.
01:08I was tied up in the Robert Blake case, getting ready for trial.
01:12And eventually, I had a falling out with Mr. Blake.
01:14And about three months after that, I got another call to fly to Florida and meet Michael.
01:19And one thing led to another.
01:20Is it common in criminal cases for lawyers to be switched, like, Blake drops you, you go somewhere else?
01:29I don't know if it's common.
01:30But, you know, the criminal defense business is a very tense, high-stakes business, and clients do get very upset at times.
01:38They're very vulnerable emotionally, and changes do happen from time to time.
01:42Did you work with Jackson's preceding lawyers?
01:45A little bit.
01:49Mark Garagos was a very gracious and very professional at all times.
01:53I've known him for a long time.
01:55He's a very, very decent and very, very skilled lawyer.
01:59And he was very helpful in the transition.
02:02You said that you were not surprised by the verdict, meaning you were confident.
02:06But most lawyers say never predict a jury, never be confident.
02:11Explain.
02:12I was confident.
02:14I thought that we had really destroyed their case very effectively on cross-examination,
02:19and I thought we had called a lot of very effective witnesses in our case.
02:23And I thought when you put that whole package together, they were going to have trouble.
02:27How do you psychologically prepare a client for something like, like, for example,
02:31do you make him aware that he might be in jail that night?
02:35Do you discuss that at all?
02:36Or do you only go the positive route?
02:39It depends on the client, Larry.
02:41You have to be candid with your client.
02:43You have to explain the possibilities and the options without sounding defeatist.
02:47And at no time did I ever take a defeatist attitude with Michael Jackson
02:50because I always thought we'd win this case.
02:52What kind of client was he?
02:55He's a wonderful client.
02:57He's one of the easiest clients to deal with that I've ever experienced.
03:00He's very kind.
03:01He's very gentle.
03:02He's very cooperative.
03:03He's a very, very honorable, decent person,
03:07and I thoroughly enjoyed representing him, and I consider him a friend.
03:10Was there any thought of him taking the stand?
03:14Yes, there was.
03:15When I gave my opening statement, I intended to put him on the stand,
03:18and he intended to testify.
03:19As the case developed, it became very clear to me that he didn't have to.
03:24We had cross-examined very effectively.
03:27We had shown the jury a videotape of a two-hour and 45-minute interview with Michael Jackson
03:32where he explained his life and his philosophy of music and living
03:36and his experiences growing up.
03:38And when we put all that together, we decided there was nothing really to be achieved by it.
03:42Was there ever a point, Tom, where you were, during this, down?
03:48You know, Larry, it's interesting.
03:51All trials have ups and downs, and all trials have surprises.
03:56But in this case, I felt that we were very aggressive from the opening bell
04:00in our opening statement and in our cross-examination of their initial witnesses,
04:04and our plan was to be extremely aggressive and put them on the defensive as quickly as possible,
04:10and I think we achieved that.
04:11So we had a lot of good days in this trial, particularly in their case and particularly in our case,
04:16and I was always confident.
04:18There were some who were saying the prosecution was obsessed with Michael Jackson.
04:23Do you share that view?
04:25Yes, I do.
04:27I share it completely.
04:28I think they were not objective about this case.
04:30They were not objective about their witnesses.
04:32They were not objective about the theories they tried to prove,
04:35which were unprovable because they were false,
04:37and I think their obsession really hurt them.
04:40You think it goes back to the settlement years back?
04:44I don't know where it began, Larry.
04:47It would appear around that time they developed an obsession about Michael Jackson
04:52in this prosecuting agency,
04:53but clearly they were not being objective when they put this case together.
04:58Now, why, Tom?
04:59I mean, they had people come to them.
05:01They had a lady come to them, the son telling them stories.
05:04They had other people who were witnesses.
05:06Why did they make a mistake in going ahead with this?
05:10Well, first of all, they never thoroughly investigated the accusers and the accusers' family, in my opinion.
05:15And if you look at the early interviews with the accusers,
05:19you'll see the police basically accepting their story before they even investigated who they are.
05:24It was really us that found all the problems with these witnesses, with their history, with their backgrounds.
05:32The prosecution almost turned a blind eye to what was really going on.
05:37And I think even in the middle of the trial, they were trying to deny reality, and it caught up with them.
05:42How big a factor was Macaulay Culkin?
05:45He was a big factor.
05:46He was a wonderful witness for Michael Jackson.
05:48And I will always have tremendous respect for Macaulay Culkin.
05:52He's on top of the world.
05:53He didn't have to go to bat for his friend, and he did it anyway.
05:56And there never was any doubt that he was going to come and testify.
05:58He always said, I want to be there, I want to help Michael Jackson, and I want to tell the truth.
06:02He was a big factor, and he was a man of really strong character.
06:06Do you like to talk to jurors after trial, win or lose?
06:10I do.
06:11I haven't had the opportunity to do it here, but yes, I do.
06:14You always learn things from jurors.
06:16And I've never had the privilege to be a juror myself.
06:20And I've always liked to have the opportunity, but I never did.
06:24I always get bumped off when I get called for jury duty.
06:26I would imagine.
06:27We had the foreman on last night.
06:29We also had one of the jurors who said he believed that Michael Jackson was or is a pedophile.
06:35It's just that this prosecution didn't prove this case.
06:38How do you react to a statement like that?
06:41Well, I think he's wrong.
06:42Michael Jackson is not a pedophile.
06:44He's never been a pedophile.
06:45The prosecution has spent years trying to put together a story which they hoped they could prove and failed to prove.
06:51Michael Jackson is not a pedophile.
06:52He's never molested a child, nor would he ever even conceive of doing such a thing.
06:57So these were concocted stories?
06:59Well, certainly they were concocted by the main accusers.
07:04And certainly the prosecution tried to create the impression that other people were molested.
07:09And they all came in and said they weren't.
07:11The amazing thing, though, is when you have a guy who's certainly different from the norm,
07:16an older man who sleeps with boys,
07:19To get a jury, as my friend Edward Bennett-Williams used to say,
07:24what you have to do with a jury is to get the jury to put themselves in your client's shoes.
07:29If the jury can put themselves in your client's shoes, you win.
07:33How does someone put themselves in Michael Jackson's shoes?
07:36Well, first of all, Larry, this notion that he sleeps with boys was a concoction by the prosecution.
07:42What he said very openly was that he allows families into his room.
07:46Now, his room is the size of a duplex.
07:49It's two levels.
07:50He's had mothers sleep there, fathers sleep there, sisters sleep there, brothers sleep there.
07:54The prosecution concocted this little saying about sleeping with boys
07:59because they thought it would turn off the jury, and they failed.
08:02But, yes, we did have to explain who Michael Jackson was to the jury,
08:06that he's a very creative spirit, a very gentle soul, a brilliant musician,
08:10a brilliant choreographer, and a very sensitive person
08:13who's very concerned about the world and the problems in the world.
08:17And he has a very childlike spirit and essence to him,
08:19and he attracts children all over the world.
08:21We did have to explain who he was,
08:23but this is a country which prides itself on diversity,
08:26on the freedom to be who you are,
08:28and we never diverted our attention from who Michael was.
08:31We never tried to make him look like anything but himself.
08:34He never tried to dress differently for the courtroom.
08:36Our whole intention was to show who Michael is
08:39and be proud of it and embrace it.
08:41We'll be right back with more of Thomas Mezzereau,
08:44Michael Jackson's very successful defense attorney.
08:47We'll have more questions.
08:48We'll take your calls as well.
08:49He's with us for the full program.
08:50Don't go away.
08:51When a victim comes in and the victim tells you they've been victimized
08:55and you believe that and you believe that the evidence supports that,
09:01you don't look at their pedigree.
09:04We look at what we think is what's right.
09:09You do the right things for the right reasons.
09:11If it doesn't work out, that's why we have a jury system.
09:13But we did the right thing for the right reasons.
09:15Tomorrow, exclusive, Michael Jackson's brothers, Jermaine and Tito, speak out
09:21on how Michael's doing after being acquitted of child molestation.
09:25Jermaine and Tito Jackson for the hour, taking your calls.
09:28Larry King Live, CNN tomorrow, 9 Eastern.
09:32Bringing you the world for 25 years, this is CNN.
09:36Thomas Mezzaro is our special guest.
09:40What's it like in your gut?
09:42Now, you can be as confident as you wish, but when they walk in,
09:46before those words are uttered, what goes through you?
09:51You know, Larry, it's a very tense, uncomfortable moment.
09:57You never really get used to it.
09:59Your heart skips a few beats.
10:01And it's something that I never look forward to, in a sense,
10:05because it's never easy.
10:07Did you at all clutch Jackson's arm or he your arm?
10:13Yes.
10:13When the verdicts were being read, I did grab Michael's hand.
10:18And he seemed to appreciate it.
10:22I wanted to show him my support.
10:24And I also wanted to send the message, we are winning this case.
10:28What did he say to you when all 10 counts were read?
10:32He said the word, thank you, thank you, thank you.
10:35His first reaction was gratitude.
10:38Gratitude to God, gratitude to his defense team,
10:41gratitude to his family and friends.
10:43That's really all he said.
10:46And that's the joy of a criminal defense lawyer.
10:48Right?
10:49You bet.
10:52What happened?
10:52He posted bail, did he not?
10:54Is that returned immediately?
10:56How was his, what did he take, a lien on the house?
10:58How was that done?
11:00Well, that was done early in the case.
11:02It was done actually before I was,
11:05appeared on the case as counsel of record.
11:07And bail was posted by a bail bondsman.
11:10It was secured by property.
11:11And is that then torn up immediately?
11:15Yes, yes.
11:16When he was acquitted, a provision was made for bail to be revoked.
11:21And he moves on and he's free.
11:23When your friend Mark Garagos was on this program last week,
11:27he was highly critical of pundits, television pundits, 24-hour news,
11:33round-the-clock people knocking, making forecasts.
11:37He was even given thought that maybe the British system of not allowing coverage of trials is better.
11:42What are your thoughts about pundits?
11:45By the way, I use the word revoked.
11:47Bail was exonerated, not revoked.
11:49I share Mark Garagos' comments.
11:52I think that we have developed an industry of would-be experts
11:56who are not professional, who are not experienced,
11:59who are very amateurish in their comments about what's going on in courtrooms
12:03and who are willing to give opinions when they're not even there.
12:06And I think it has become the theater of the absurd.
12:09And I think it reached its lowest level in this case.
12:12What was it like for you to-
12:14You weren't under an order not to watch it.
12:16What was it like to watch it?
12:19Well, I didn't watch it that often, Larry.
12:21I was too busy working on the case.
12:24But you knew what was going on.
12:26I knew a lot of what was going on.
12:28When I would take a break in my apartment while I was preparing,
12:31I would turn on the TV set, and a lot of it was just appalling.
12:34The factual inaccuracies, the obvious bias,
12:39among people like Court TV,
12:41who I felt was really an arm of the prosecution through this case,
12:44it was very amateurish and very unprofessional and very disturbing.
12:48Would you say it is hard or impossible
12:50to predict an outcome of a trial you didn't attend?
12:53It's very hard because you don't know the chemistry of the courtroom.
12:59You're not watching the interaction between the witnesses and the jury
13:03and the judge and both sides.
13:06There's just so much that you miss if you're not there.
13:09And plus, how do you compress, you know,
13:11six to eight hours of testimony into a soundbite?
13:14You can't possibly be accurate.
13:15What about the British system?
13:18Once an arrest is made, no coverage.
13:22Well, there's certainly a lot to be said for that.
13:25I frankly like freedom of the press,
13:28but it's reaching an absurd state when it comes to trials in America.
13:32We're obsessed with celebrity trials.
13:35It's become an industry of pundits
13:38who really are trying to be movie stars
13:41and not real legal experts.
13:44And it just reached the bottom of the barrel in this case.
13:48Fortunately, the jury was not affected.
13:49They did the right thing.
13:51The prosecutor, Mr. Sneddon,
13:52said that there is celebrity justice like in California.
13:56Blake is an example.
13:57This is an example.
13:58O.J., how do you react?
14:00That's sour grapes on his part.
14:03I'll tell you what celebrity injustice was in this case.
14:06It was sending 70 sheriffs
14:08to raid Michael Jackson's home in a search.
14:10It was putting more experts, more sheriffs,
14:13and more investigators on this case
14:15than they do with serial killers.
14:17That's what I call celebrity injustice.
14:19So in a sense, he's correct.
14:20He just is looking at it the wrong way.
14:23Michael Jackson was treated differently
14:24because he was a celebrity.
14:26Does, though, a celebrity have an edge
14:28in that we can assume going in
14:31most of the people like them?
14:36I don't consider that necessarily an edge.
14:39I think that jurors tend to be very mindful
14:42that they're not supposed to treat celebrities differently,
14:45and they might even go bend over backwards
14:47to make sure they don't do that.
14:49So there's a lot of injustice
14:51that's directed at celebrities.
14:53They're bigger targets for prosecutors.
14:54They're bigger targets for sheriffs and police officers.
14:57They're bigger targets for people
14:59who want fame and fortune.
15:00What's your assessment of the performance
15:04of the prosecution in the courtroom?
15:08They were extremely aggressive
15:09and extremely prepared and very determined.
15:13I think their biggest problem was
15:14they were not objective about their case.
15:17They believed things they wanted to believe.
15:19They tried to prove theories that were absurd,
15:22and they tried to demonize Michael Jackson
15:24in a way which looked absolutely ridiculous
15:26when you really took a close look at the evidence.
15:29And they went way over the edge, and it hurt them.
15:31Weren't you very concerned, though,
15:33when that tape was allowed in at the end?
15:36I was concerned.
15:38I didn't think there was a legal basis for it.
15:40But after looking at it a second time
15:44and realizing how many conflicting statements
15:47this accuser had made in that interview
15:49and how that interview showed the police officer
15:51was willing to accept his story
15:53before he even investigated the case,
15:56the more I looked at it,
15:57the more I thought it would probably help us.
15:59And based on some of the jurors' comments,
16:00it did help us.
16:02Emotionally, is it hard to press
16:05when you cross-examine an accuser,
16:08a young accuser, a mother?
16:12Well, you have to gauge your cross-examination
16:14to the witness.
16:15You don't want to look like a bully.
16:17You don't want to look like
16:18you're really taking advantage of your position.
16:21However, you have to adjust
16:23depending on the personality in front of you.
16:25Some young kids have a level of maturity
16:28that's extremely high.
16:30And as Chris Tucker said about the accuser,
16:32he was very cunning and very smart.
16:35We had to take all of that into account
16:37and factor our cross-examination accordingly.
16:40And I think you also want to cross-examination
16:43at different speeds with different tones
16:46and you want to do whatever you think
16:48will be effective for that particular witness.
16:50We'll be right back with more of Thomas Mesereau.
16:52We'll be including your phone calls tomorrow night.
16:55Jermaine and Tito Jackson, Michael's brothers,
16:57will be our special guest.
16:59And Thursday night, a very special hour
17:01with a very special man,
17:03Reverend Billy Graham.
17:06We'll be right back.
17:06We believed in the child and we believed in the case
17:24and we believed that there was sufficient corroboration
17:26for what the children said occurred.
17:28And so whether it be Michael Jackson or John Smith
17:34or whoever it may be,
17:36this is the kind of case that the sheriff investigates.
17:41The sheriff believed in this case
17:43and their detectives believed in this case
17:45and we believed in this case.
17:46And like I said,
17:48I'm not going to apologize for what we did.
17:49I guess, Tom Mesereau, the jury didn't agree.
17:55They certainly didn't.
17:57Michael Jackson was acquitted of every felony count
18:00and every misdemeanor count.
18:01It was a clean sweep.
18:03Did you expect any,
18:05did you have any worries about some of the misdemeanor counts?
18:08I really didn't because to convict him
18:10of even the misdemeanor counts,
18:12you had to believe the accuser beyond a reasonable doubt.
18:14And that was not going to happen, in my opinion.
18:17So even as a smaller thing as serving liquor
18:20without any intention for sex
18:22was not, was turned down as well by the jury?
18:26They were completely turned down by the jury.
18:28They did not believe these accusers.
18:30They did not believe any of these,
18:32this family's testimony on any significant level.
18:35Would you like cameras in the courtroom?
18:39You know, I have mixed feelings about it.
18:41I'm glad there were not cameras
18:43in this particular courtroom.
18:44I think it would have created
18:45more of a circus-type environment
18:47than existed outside the courtroom already.
18:51I like the idea of the public
18:52seeing what goes on in courts
18:54because we're supposed to conduct public trials.
18:57But I think given the media's repeated attempts
19:01to make a circus-like environment
19:03out of criminal trials,
19:04I'm beginning to change my opinion of that.
19:06And maybe, maybe they don't belong in courtrooms.
19:09You like gag orders?
19:11I don't particularly like them.
19:13I think in this case, it worked very well.
19:16I think the temptation among lawyers and prosecutors
19:20to become movie stars
19:22and essentially promote themselves on camera
19:26is something that's got to be avoided
19:28if we're going to have justice
19:29in our criminal justice system.
19:30Was Mark Garagos a good witness for you?
19:33He was an excellent witness.
19:35He was a very, very honest witness.
19:39He really spoke for his client.
19:41He explained very simply
19:43and very carefully and honestly
19:45what he had done to surveil his family
19:48because of his suspicions.
19:49And he really did go to bat for his client.
19:51There were some Jackson supporters
19:54concerned over the fact
19:55there was no black on the jury.
19:58But composite of that community, of course,
20:00there was a black alternate.
20:02Were you concerned about the race issue?
20:05Well, certainly, Michael Jackson
20:08is part of a very prominent African-American family.
20:11And initially, we did hope
20:13there would be some African-American representation
20:15on the jury.
20:16But once the jury was picked,
20:18I always had a good feeling about this jury.
20:20I always felt they were very independent-minded.
20:23Nobody was going to intimidate them.
20:24They were going to take their job very seriously
20:26and be very fair.
20:28And I was correct.
20:29You like jurors who take notes?
20:33I don't know how to answer that, Larry.
20:35I think note-taking is an indication
20:37that someone's paying attention
20:39and very concerned about their job.
20:41But on the other hand,
20:42you can also be paying attention
20:43and absorbing what's going on
20:45without taking notes.
20:46So I don't really know how to answer that question.
20:47All right.
20:48When the jury asked a couple of questions of the judge,
20:51they were not revealed to the press or the public.
20:54Were you concerned about any of that?
20:56Anything you can tell us about what they asked?
21:00You know, I really don't want to reveal that.
21:02I don't know if Judge Melville has unsealed
21:04those questions or not.
21:06So at this point,
21:07I'd rather not discuss that.
21:08Were you concerned by any of them
21:10without telling us what they were?
21:13I was not concerned.
21:14I was actually encouraged by them.
21:16So when you heard the question,
21:17that furthered your confidence?
21:20Yes, it did.
21:21How well did the judge do?
21:24The judge was an outstanding jurist.
21:27I think all judges in America
21:28should learn a lesson
21:29from the way Judge Melville conducted this trial.
21:32He was determined from day one
21:34that this was not going to get out of control.
21:36He was determined that justice
21:37was going to be done
21:38in and outside that courtroom.
21:40He employed some very creative procedures
21:43to make sure that order was kept
21:45throughout the trial.
21:46He did a masterful job.
21:47And I have total respect
21:48for Judge Melville
21:49and his wonderful staff.
21:51Even though he got mad at you
21:52a few times?
21:53Yes, he did.
21:54But he got mad at the prosecution also.
21:56He was very fair-minded.
21:58That's all you want, right?
22:00Balanced and fair.
22:01That's, I think, the most we can expect.
22:04And we had it with Judge Melville.
22:05He's an outstanding judge.
22:07We'll be right back
22:08with more of Thomas Mesereau.
22:09We'll be including your phone calls
22:10on this edition of Larry King Live.
22:13Don't go away.
22:14My mother, when she looked at me
22:16and snapped her fingers a few times
22:17and she says,
22:18you know how our culture is,
22:19and winks at me,
22:20I thought, no,
22:21that's not the way our culture is.
22:22As a mother to the values and stuff
22:31that she has taught them
22:34and they've learned
22:35and that is really hard
22:37for me to comprehend, you know,
22:40because I wouldn't want any of my children
22:42to lie for their own gain.
22:52We're back with Thomas Mesereau.
22:56We certainly thank him
22:57for giving us this time tonight exclusively.
22:59Let's take a few calls.
23:01Tulsa, Oklahoma,
23:02for the Victoria's defense attorney.
23:04Hello.
23:05Hi.
23:06Hi, Larry.
23:07Hi.
23:08Mr. Mesereau,
23:09do you have any idea
23:10when Michael might make a statement?
23:13You know, I really don't.
23:15I have not talked to him about that.
23:17Michael's going to have to go through
23:19a period of physical recovery.
23:20He's exhausted.
23:22He was not sleeping.
23:24He was not eating.
23:25It was a very, very traumatic experience for him
23:27and it's going to take him a while to recover.
23:29And I don't anticipate his making a statement very soon,
23:33but I suppose it's possible.
23:34But I have not discussed it with him.
23:35You then would not recommend
23:37any immediate, in-depth interview?
23:40I really would not.
23:41I think Michael needs to spend time
23:43with his children and his family.
23:45He needs to savor his victory.
23:46He's a very, very grateful, very spiritual person.
23:50I think he'd like to be left alone
23:52and would like to heal and mend and move forward.
23:55They all took off in their cars back to Neverland.
23:58Where'd you go right after the verdict?
24:01After the verdict,
24:02we went to see Judge Melville and his staff
24:05to thank him for their very professional behavior
24:07towards all of us.
24:08And then we went to Neverland as well.
24:11Indiana, Pennsylvania.
24:12Hello.
24:13Hello.
24:14My hat's off to you, Larry,
24:15for your fairness during this thing
24:17and to you, Mr. Miserow.
24:18My question is,
24:19the media has Brandon Michael Jackson
24:22as a freak and a pedophile.
24:24How can he recover
24:25as the consummate talent he is?
24:27Good question.
24:28Well, I think he can recover
24:31because Michael is a very resilient person.
24:33And yes, he's been a target for many years.
24:36He's been maligned.
24:37He's been scandalized.
24:38But he's also one of the world's greatest artists
24:40and one of the world's greatest talents
24:42and also one of the world's greatest humanitarians.
24:46And Michael has all the tools
24:47and the skills and the support
24:49to recover and go forward and do very well.
24:52Do you expect him to return to the stage?
24:57Larry, I'm not an expert on the music industry
24:59or the entertainment business,
25:01but I know Michael is an artist.
25:03He's a creative soul.
25:04You can't stifle his creativity.
25:06And I would not be surprised
25:08if he makes a rebound
25:10and does it very effectively.
25:12Was the family easy to deal with for you?
25:14They're such a tight-knit group.
25:17The family was lovely to deal with.
25:19They're very, very wonderful people.
25:21They were all very supportive of Michael.
25:23There were a lot of rumors about dissension
25:25that were not true.
25:26They were a joy to deal with.
25:28Very lovely family.
25:29What happened to Ramon Bain?
25:31Well, you know, I worked with Ramon for many months.
25:35We worked very effectively together.
25:37We had a few differences towards the end,
25:38but that happens in big cases.
25:40But I have a lot of respect for Ramon
25:41and always enjoyed seeing her and working with him.
25:44Why let her out that late in the case, though?
25:48You know, there's some confidential reasons
25:50why we had some differences at the end,
25:52but they're really insignificant.
25:54The fact of the matter is we were a team and we won.
25:57And she did a very fine job.
25:58There's the famous tape of you apparently having an argument
26:01with, I guess, Brian Oxman.
26:04And there was a strong, of course,
26:05pundits went nuts with that tumult in the Jackson defense.
26:08What was that about?
26:10I'm not going to talk about that, Larry.
26:12I think that's a matter of confidence.
26:15Brian was a very hard worker.
26:17He's known the Jacksons for a long time.
26:19He's given the very effective representation
26:20in many different areas.
26:22We had some differences.
26:23It happens in big cases when the stakes are high.
26:26None of our business.
26:27You have said that Michael was the victim
26:31of bad advice in the past,
26:33that settling past molestation claims
26:35led to greed begetting greed.
26:37Are you saying you shouldn't have settled anything?
26:40That's correct.
26:42I think looking backwards,
26:43you know, we can all be Monday morning quarterbacks in life
26:46and change things we've done.
26:48But I think if Michael could go back,
26:49he would never have settled those cases.
26:51He would have fought them to the end.
26:52And the message would have got out,
26:54don't make false claims against Michael Jackson
26:56or you're going to trial.
26:58Oxman still, he told Paul it's on,
27:00he still represents the family, right?
27:03That's my understanding.
27:04I have not talked to Brian since he left the defense team.
27:08Are you concerned there might be civil suits
27:10against Michael after this?
27:12Or does this watch that out?
27:14Well, I think it would be crazy
27:17to file a civil suit against Michael,
27:19given what happened in this trial.
27:21It's always possible.
27:22But if it's done,
27:23he will fight it till the end and he will win.
27:26His ex-wife, Debbie Rowe, was called by the state.
27:30She appeared to help the defense.
27:32You agree?
27:34Yes, I do.
27:35She helped us a lot.
27:36Why then was she called?
27:39You'll have to ask the prosecutors about that.
27:41They wined and dined her at a local restaurant
27:44the night before.
27:45From what I understand,
27:47a lot of pressure was put on her
27:49to say what they wanted her to say.
27:51And when she got on the witness stand,
27:53she told the truth.
27:54And she explained, you know, who Michael was
27:56and was very effective for us.
27:59Anyone you called you regretted?
28:04Not really, Larry.
28:05You know, there were a couple of witnesses
28:06that didn't pan out exactly as we had hoped.
28:09But we did pretty well.
28:11We put on a very strong defense
28:13after, I think,
28:14very effectively cross-examining their witnesses.
28:16So we had an extraordinarily large number
28:20of good days in this trial.
28:22Sometimes defendants are a very important part
28:25of their case, sometimes not.
28:27Was Michael very involved in the defense?
28:31Yes, he was.
28:33But Michael is an artist.
28:34He's a musician.
28:35He's not a criminal defense lawyer.
28:36And he was very willing to listen
28:39and to do what he was advised
28:42was the correct thing.
28:44And he was actually a joy to work with.
28:46So in other words,
28:47if you had told him, Michael,
28:48I think you should take the stand,
28:49he would have.
28:51He absolutely would have.
28:52In fact, he expected to.
28:54We'll be back with more and more phone calls
28:56for Thomas Mesereau
28:57on this edition of Larry King Live.
28:59Don't go away.
29:19We're back with Thomas Mesereau.
29:20Let's take another call.
29:21Glenn Holden, Pennsylvania.
29:22Hello.
29:23Hello, Larry.
29:24Hi.
29:24I'd like to ask Mr. Mesereau
29:26if there is a possibility
29:27that a malicious prosecution case
29:30be filed against the DA's office
29:32at Santa Barbara
29:33and Mr. Tom Snowden's.
29:37I think it would be warranted,
29:38but I have not discussed it
29:39with Michael Jackson.
29:41We just got the verdict,
29:43you know, recently.
29:44He's now recovering.
29:45Nobody has really discussed that issue.
29:47But you think it was malicious?
29:50I do.
29:51I think that he was treated in a way
29:53that no one else
29:54would have been similarly treated.
29:55It was because he was a mega-celebrity.
29:58Why 70 sheriffs
29:59searching Neverland Ranch
30:01based upon what this accuser
30:03and his family said
30:04before they'd even investigated
30:05the background
30:06of the accuser and his family?
30:07So you're saying if he wanted to,
30:09he could bring a malicious prosecution suit
30:11and be successful?
30:14I don't...
30:15I'm not going to say right now
30:16what the merits or demerits
30:17of the suit would be.
30:18That would have to be explored.
30:20But do I think this was done
30:21maliciously and unfairly?
30:22Absolutely.
30:23You had a tragedy happen to you
30:25during this trial.
30:26Your sister died of lung cancer, right?
30:29That's correct.
30:30How did that affect
30:31this whole thing for you?
30:33I mean, how did...
30:34Emotionally?
30:36Well, it was very difficult emotionally.
30:38It happened right as the trial
30:39was beginning.
30:40Judge Melville gave me some time
30:42to handle the funeral
30:44and all the things related to that.
30:46It was very difficult.
30:47But I will say that
30:50one of her last messages to me
30:52was that she thought
30:52we were going to win.
30:54And I thought about her
30:55throughout the trial.
30:56How old was she?
30:59She was 53.
31:01She smoked?
31:03Yes, she did.
31:04She smoked from the time
31:04she was 13.
31:06And unfortunately,
31:07it took a toll.
31:08Was Michael compassionate
31:09about that death?
31:11Michael was not only compassionate,
31:13he sent her the most beautiful,
31:16the largest bouquet of flowers
31:17you've ever seen.
31:19He wrote a little poem for her.
31:21It came from he and his children.
31:23And it was one of the most meaningful,
31:25most wonderful things
31:26that he could have done for her
31:27during her final days.
31:30How does he interact with his kids?
31:33Beautifully.
31:34He loves his children.
31:35They love him.
31:36He spends a lot of time with them.
31:39He's a loving, doting, caring father.
31:42And his children just adore him.
31:45Are they well-mannered?
31:47Yes, they are.
31:48They're wonderful children.
31:50I was with them yesterday.
31:51When you were doing
31:52your pre-trial questioning of Michael,
31:54when you have to get into
31:55a lot of subjects
31:56that are not everyday
31:58table conversation,
31:59was that hard?
32:00When you have to ask
32:01your own client,
32:02did you do this to this boy?
32:07I'm not going to go into
32:08the questions I asked Michael.
32:09They're privileged and confidential.
32:11Of course.
32:11But were they difficult?
32:12For you.
32:14Frankly, no.
32:15Because the more
32:16I got to know Michael Jackson,
32:18and the more ridiculous
32:19I realized these charges were,
32:21and the more of a gentle,
32:23charitable, kind-hearted,
32:25decent person he is,
32:27the less difficulty there was.
32:29I mean, he always was
32:30a very straightforward, honest,
32:33down-to-earth person
32:33to deal with.
32:35And the Michael Jackson
32:36that I know
32:37doesn't even come close
32:39to the Michael Jackson
32:40they tried to portray.
32:42So he was an easy person
32:44to deal with.
32:44And when you asked him questions,
32:45he answered you directly?
32:47Of course he did.
32:48He's very honest,
32:49and he's very down-to-earth.
32:51If you look at the few interviews
32:52he's done,
32:53you see a very, very simple,
32:55down-to-earth person
32:57who's very honest
32:58about who he is,
32:59honest about his loneliness,
33:01honest about his childhood.
33:02He's a very, very decent,
33:04kind person
33:05and easy to deal with.
33:07And trusting?
33:09Too trusting.
33:10That's been his downfall.
33:12He has trusted the wrong people,
33:14he has felt sorry
33:15for the wrong people,
33:16he has tried to heal
33:17the wrong people,
33:18and they've turned on him
33:19and tried to take advantage of him
33:20through the legal system.
33:22Will he be tougher?
33:25Yes, he will.
33:26We've already had a talk about that.
33:27He will, for sure.
33:29This was a horrible experience for him,
33:32and he's not going to allow
33:33people to just run wild
33:34through his home
33:35because he feels sorry for them
33:38and wants to take care of them
33:39and wants to heal them.
33:40He has to get much firmer,
33:42and he will.
33:42You said earlier,
33:44you let him be him.
33:45You didn't tell him
33:45what to wear or anything.
33:47But the pajama incident,
33:48which got a lot of press,
33:49that'd bother you.
33:51Well, but that was not something
33:53anybody planned.
33:54He had to go to the hospital.
33:56He expected to be there
33:57for a short period of time.
33:59Judge Melville took a very firm position,
34:01which he had the right to do,
34:03and said,
34:03get him here quickly,
34:04or he was going to issue a bench warrant.
34:07So Michael had to run right
34:08from the hospital
34:09to the courthouse.
34:10He complied with Judge Melville's order.
34:13That was not something
34:14anybody planned or wanted.
34:15It just happened.
34:16You think there was much to do
34:17about nothing?
34:18I agree.
34:20Absolutely.
34:23So therefore,
34:23you didn't deal with you telling him
34:25how to act in court,
34:26sit up, sit this way,
34:27do this, do that,
34:28wear this, wear that.
34:31No.
34:31I wanted Michael Jackson
34:32to be who Michael Jackson is.
34:35And, you know,
34:35jurors are smart.
34:36They're intuitive.
34:37They're instinctive.
34:38They know what they're being asked
34:39to do to somebody
34:40at the council table.
34:42and you don't want
34:43to have your client
34:44do something that's phony
34:45or unrealistic.
34:47I wanted Michael Jackson
34:48to be exactly who he was
34:49and is and be proud of it.
34:51And that's what he did.
34:52There was nothing phony
34:53about our side of the table.
34:54There was a lot that was phony
34:55about the prosecution
34:56side of the table.
34:57Phony.
34:59Yes.
35:00Meaning they knew
35:01they were doing something
35:02that wasn't right.
35:04I don't see how
35:05they could not have known that.
35:07Look at their conspiracy theory,
35:09for example.
35:09They were trying to say
35:10that Michael Jackson
35:11had a financial motive
35:13to essentially abduct a family
35:16and ship them to Brazil.
35:17It was the most ridiculous theory
35:19I've ever heard of.
35:20I don't know how they did it
35:21with a straight face.
35:23And it backfired on them
35:24as it should have.
35:25We'll be back with more
35:26of Thomas Messerose
35:27and more phone calls, too,
35:29on this very interesting hour
35:30of Larry King Live.
35:31Don't go away.
35:33Go.
35:33Let's go.
35:34Go.
35:34Go.
35:34Go.
35:34Go.
35:35Go.
35:35Go.
35:35Go.
35:35Go.
35:36Go.
35:36Go.
35:36Go.
35:36Go.
35:36Go.
35:36Go.
35:36Go.
35:37Go.
35:37Go.
35:37Go.
35:37Go.
35:38Go.
35:38Go.
35:38Go.
35:39Go.
35:39Go.
35:39We're back.
35:45You mentioned earlier
35:46how you boosted your client
35:47and always try to be optimistic.
35:49But do you have to give it,
35:50do you have to talk at all
35:51about the possibility
35:52of a guilty verdict,
35:53tell them what might happen to them,
35:55deal with what might happen?
35:59Well, Larry,
36:00you have to be honest
36:00with your client at all times.
36:02You do have ethical
36:03and professional obligations
36:04to explain the situation
36:05the client's in.
36:07But at the same time,
36:08if you really believe
36:10in your case
36:11and you really are optimistic
36:12about your chances,
36:13you also have to convey
36:14that as well.
36:15And I was always optimistic
36:17about this case
36:18once I learned about it
36:20because the more you looked
36:21into who these accusers were
36:23and who the witnesses
36:24the prosecution
36:25was going to call were,
36:26the more ridiculous
36:27everything looked.
36:29So there was no reason
36:30to say,
36:30Michael, be prepared.
36:31You might be in jail tonight.
36:34Well, you never know
36:35what a jury is going to do.
36:36You don't know
36:37those 12 people.
36:38They're not personal
36:39friends of yours.
36:40You don't know
36:40what makes them tick.
36:41But I always had
36:42a good feeling
36:43about this jury.
36:44I always felt
36:44that our case
36:45was going in very well
36:46and I always thought
36:47the truth would prevail.
36:49And I really felt
36:50that these jurors
36:51were very independent-minded,
36:52that nobody was going
36:53to push them around.
36:54They were going to
36:54follow the law
36:55and do what's right.
36:56Tempe, Arizona
36:57for Tom Mesereau.
36:59Hello.
37:00Hello, Larry.
37:00I love your show.
37:01Thank you.
37:02My question is,
37:03how do you think
37:04the media coverage
37:05affected this case?
37:07Mr. Mesereau.
37:07Yeah, did it?
37:09Well, ultimately,
37:11we had the right result.
37:12Justice was served.
37:14An innocent man
37:14walked free.
37:15So I can't say
37:16that in the long run,
37:18the media had
37:19the damaging effect
37:20that I was worried about
37:22at certain points
37:22in the trial.
37:23The problem I had
37:24with the media was
37:25they tried to turn it
37:26into a circus.
37:27They tried to pursue
37:29biases and prejudices
37:30against Mr. Jackson
37:32because they thought
37:33it would generate
37:34interest and ratings.
37:35And they tried to make
37:36a circus out of the case.
37:38And to some extent,
37:38they did.
37:39But in the end,
37:39justice prevailed
37:40because this jury
37:41was not going to be
37:42unduly influenced
37:43by other people.
37:44They were going to do
37:45what was right.
37:46Do you believe the jury
37:48didn't watch television?
37:50I believe they didn't.
37:52I believe this jury
37:53took Judge Melville's
37:54orders very seriously.
37:55I believe they took
37:56their job very seriously.
37:58And I believe
37:59they were determined
38:00not to be unfairly
38:01or unduly influenced
38:02by anybody.
38:03Manila, Pan, Florida.
38:05Hello.
38:06Hi, Mr. King.
38:06And I love your show.
38:08Thank you.
38:08I'd like to know
38:09if Mr. Mesereau
38:10can disclose
38:10the approximate cost
38:12of the defense.
38:16I'm sorry.
38:17I didn't totally
38:17understand the question.
38:18If you could disclose
38:19the approximate cost
38:21of the defense.
38:23I will not talk
38:24about legal fees
38:25or costs.
38:25What did it cost
38:26the state?
38:29It had to have
38:30cost them many
38:30millions of dollars.
38:32I have been told
38:32that the Board of Supervisors
38:34of Santa Barbara County
38:35has been up in arms
38:36about the cost
38:37of this case.
38:38And if you look
38:39at the number
38:39of sheriffs
38:40and investigators
38:41and experts
38:42and people
38:43and prosecutors
38:43put on this case,
38:45it's absurd.
38:46They wouldn't do it
38:47in a murder case.
38:47They wouldn't do it
38:48in a serial killer case.
38:50But they did it
38:50because Michael Jackson
38:51is a superstar
38:52and they wanted
38:53to take a superstar
38:54down.
38:56How important
38:56was your investigator,
38:57Scott Ross?
38:59He was extremely important.
39:01Scott Ross did
39:02a fabulous job
39:02as did Jesus Castillo,
39:04our second investigator.
39:06They were critical
39:06to our defense.
39:07They were relentless.
39:08They were professional.
39:09They dug up the facts.
39:11They found the witnesses.
39:12They got them to court.
39:13These guys
39:14were just terrific.
39:15Do you use your team
39:16a lot, Tom?
39:17Did other lawyers
39:18work with you?
39:21Yes.
39:21My co-counsel
39:22and law partner,
39:24Susan Yu,
39:24was absolutely essential
39:25to this defense.
39:26She was tireless
39:27in the way she put
39:28the evidence together,
39:30the way she assisted me
39:31in preparation.
39:32Bob Sanger,
39:33my co-counsel
39:33from Santa Barbara,
39:34was an unbelievably
39:35effective lawyer.
39:36He was a trial lawyer
39:37in the trial court.
39:38He argued
39:39in the appellate courts.
39:40He did law in motion.
39:41He knew the local
39:42procedures and system.
39:44We had a lot
39:45of assistance
39:45helping us out
39:46in his office
39:47and my office.
39:48It was a great team effort
39:50and it succeeded.
39:51We'll be back
39:52with some more moments
39:53with Thomas Messero.
39:54Ask about him,
39:56his future.
39:57Don't go away.
39:57Don't go away.
40:16One more call.
40:20Gainesville, Georgia.
40:22Hello.
40:22Yes.
40:23I'd like to ask
40:23Mr. Messero
40:24if he believes
40:25that Tom Sneddon
40:27is responsible
40:28for the grand jury
40:30testimony
40:31being leaked
40:31to the press.
40:34I don't know
40:35if Tom Sneddon
40:36is personally
40:37responsible for that,
40:38but certainly
40:38somebody on the
40:39prosecution side,
40:40it would appear,
40:41was responsible.
40:42And when I say
40:42prosecution side,
40:43I'm including
40:44the sheriff's department.
40:45As you know,
40:46those transcripts
40:47were leaked
40:47just as the trial
40:48was beginning.
40:49And it's my belief
40:51they were leaked
40:51to try and prejudice
40:52the entire process.
40:54Do I know
40:54that Tom Sneddon
40:55did it personally?
40:56I do not have
40:56any understanding
40:58of that.
40:59But I think
40:59somebody who favored
41:00the prosecution
41:01did it.
41:01That's my belief.
41:02Is Michael
41:03going to stay
41:03at Neverland?
41:06I don't know
41:07the answer to that,
41:08Larry.
41:08We just haven't
41:09had a chance
41:09to talk about
41:10his future very much.
41:11He's got such
41:12an interest in kids,
41:13you think he'll
41:14still have some
41:15come over?
41:17Or are you going
41:17to advise him?
41:18Again,
41:18I...
41:19Well, I really
41:20haven't talked to
41:21Michael very much
41:22about the future.
41:23I do know,
41:24as we said before,
41:25that he has to get
41:26a lot tougher
41:26with who he lets
41:27into his life
41:28and who he feels
41:28sorry for
41:29and who he wants
41:30to heal and help
41:30because he's
41:32a real target.
41:33We'll ask his
41:34brothers tomorrow.
41:36One other thing
41:37I didn't cover.
41:38Were you surprised...
41:39I know you left
41:40the case.
41:40Were you surprised
41:41at the Robert Blake
41:42verdict?
41:44No, I was not.
41:46As you may recall,
41:47I did the three-week
41:48preliminary hearing
41:49in that case.
41:50I thought the case
41:50was full of holes
41:51and full of problems.
41:52You told me that.
41:53I was not surprised
41:53at all.
41:55You told me then
41:56you thought he would win.
41:57Sorry you left it?
42:00No.
42:00No, you know,
42:01life goes on.
42:02We had a falling out
42:03and those things happen
42:04in the high-pressure world
42:05of criminal defense.
42:07But he hired
42:08a very, very excellent lawyer
42:10and who did
42:11a very excellent job
42:12and he's free.
42:14Interesting thing
42:15about Tom at Mesereau.
42:16Born in West Point,
42:17father lieutenant colonel,
42:19worked for his in-law's
42:20restaurant business,
42:21Mama Leone's,
42:22one of the most successful
42:23restaurants ever in America,
42:25famous in New York,
42:25was an amateur boxer
42:26and represented defendants
42:29in death penalty cases
42:30and the South pro bono
42:32didn't charge,
42:33gives free legal assistance
42:34through the first
42:35African Methodist
42:36Episcopal Church in L.A.
42:38Were you glad
42:38about that apology yesterday
42:40for slavery
42:41and hangings?
42:46You know, Larry,
42:48yesterday was a wild day.
42:50Which apology
42:50are you talking about?
42:50The Senate apologized
42:51for the treatment
42:53in the past
42:54of the American black.
42:56Well, I'm absolutely
42:57in favor of that.
42:58If that's the way
42:58it was done
42:59and it was articulated
43:00properly,
43:00I am absolutely behind that.
43:03Are you looking forward
43:04to a lot more criminal cases?
43:05I mean,
43:06you're famous widespread now.
43:07It's obvious
43:08you're going to get
43:08a lot of calls.
43:09Are you ready
43:09for an onslaught
43:10of new business?
43:12No, I'm ready
43:13to get some sleep.
43:16But you seriously know
43:17you're going to get
43:18a lot of attention now.
43:20I'm sure I will.
43:21And, you know,
43:22I'll take it as it comes.
43:23I have strong views
43:26about my profession.
43:27I love what I do.
43:28I have a strong belief
43:29in civil rights
43:31and in making sure
43:33our justice system works.
43:35And we'll just move forward.
43:38I feel very blessed by God
43:39to have been in the case.
43:40How many partners
43:41in your firm?
43:43Just four partners.
43:45It's a small firm.
43:47Might you expand?
43:50I don't know.
43:50We'll just have to take it
43:51as it comes.
43:52I don't have any plans
43:53other than to, you know,
43:54get some sleep,
43:55see my family and friends
43:56and move forward.
43:58You take a vacation
43:59for a while?
44:00I could definitely
44:01use one, yes.
44:03Thomas, thank you so much
44:04for a very informative hour.
44:06We appreciate you
44:07giving us an hour.
44:08We know how tired you are.
44:09Thank you for having me.
44:11Thomas Mesereau,
44:12very successful defense attorney.
44:14Quite a career,
44:15quite a life,
44:16quite a story.
44:17Tomorrow night,
44:18Tito and Jermaine,
44:19Jermaine and Tito Jackson,
44:21Michael's brothers
44:22who promised to appear
44:23on this show
44:24when the trial is over,
44:24no matter what the verdict,
44:26will appear.
44:26Thursday night,
44:27Billy Graham.
44:29That should be extraordinary.
44:30And Friday night,
44:31Shania Twain.
44:34CNN,
44:35the most trusted name
44:36in news.
44:37Shania qu make a
44:38show of the half.
44:39Thank you for coming.
44:39I don't know if the
44:42opposite side of the
44:43channel is just
44:44to be the first
44:45of my head.
44:45Something more
44:46I don't agree,
44:46that might have
44:46a feeling,
44:47I don't agree.
44:47But the next
44:47one,
44:49making it
44:53first
44:53are
44:54really
44:55effective,
44:56because
44:57there is
44:58in a lot of
44:59The
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