- 1.7.2025
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00:00We, the jury in the above-entitled case, find the defendant not guilty of a more...
00:05Tonight, Michael Jackson walks away a free man acquitted on all counts in his child molestation trial.
00:13We'll hear from reporters who are inside the courtroom and outside among the fans for the dramatic climax to this trial.
00:21And we'll speak with Jackson Camp insiders and more, and it's all next on Larry King Live.
00:30Momentarily, we'll be talking to a whole panel of people, and I'm joined here in New York by Cynthia McFadden, ABC News Senior Legal Correspondent.
00:43We spoke on the phone earlier with Jermaine Jackson, one of Michael's brothers, and we'll hopefully be talking with him by phone tonight during the program.
00:52And tomorrow night, Tom Mesereau, the defense attorney, will be our exclusive primetime news guest.
00:58That's tomorrow night, Tom Mesereau, the defense attorney.
01:01But let's begin in the opening segment with Paul Rodriguez, better known as Jura No. 80, the jury foreman, the retired high school counselor.
01:10How tough was this for you, Paul, first to serve on jury duty?
01:15It was tough, because it's been added since about the middle of January when I first got my summons to appear for jury duty.
01:22So it's been tough. It's been a long, long haul.
01:24Well, what was the, was there a key to this decision?
01:31Was there a key to this decision?
01:33Yeah.
01:33Yeah, we just didn't, we just couldn't buy the story of the mother for one.
01:40And the corresponding stories of the children, they were too much like the mother's, although, you know, it's almost like they rehearsed it in so many ways.
01:49And anyway, some of the timelines weren't matching up.
01:53So, yeah, those were the things we probably looked at.
01:56So, was it difficult not to hold all the prior things against him, the film, the settlement years ago?
02:05Did that enter into the discussion?
02:07Yes, it did.
02:09It entered into the discussion.
02:12And we probably spent quite a bit of time referring to that case and coming back to it on various occasions, just depending on what we were talking about or deliberating about at that moment.
02:22So, yeah, it did enter into it.
02:24But in the final analysis, that's not what we needed to use for determining the guilt or not guilty verdict.
02:32When you left on Friday, did you have a pretty good idea it would be over on Monday?
02:38No, we did not.
02:39When we left on Friday, we all decided that we needed to do something to get away from this and just think about other things because we knew it was going to be, we thought it was going to be another few days before we would finish up.
02:50And we just didn't think it would go this quickly, especially not today on a Monday.
02:54So what happened today?
02:57Well, what happened today is that we started out with this whole thing on the conspiracy charges, and that was on day one.
03:05And we couldn't get anywhere, even after reading the instructions over and over again.
03:09There's 98 pages of instructions, and so we referred to that.
03:13And since we were just at opposite ends and too many issues there, so we decided to go on to something else.
03:18And after we did that, just a few things were left plus a conspiracy charge.
03:23So we went back to that, and we had a clear mind and a clear focus on what we needed to do.
03:28And that's how we ended the day or ended the whole scenario.
03:33Are you saying that the other charges were clearer than the conspiracy?
03:38No, there was some, we had to do a timeline in order to get the charges clearer in our minds as far as the molestation charges.
03:47But that just seemed to come together a lot faster than what we thought it would.
03:50We thought that would be one of the toughest things, but it came together a lot faster than the conspiracy.
03:55And the conspiracy, we might have been able to get that done sooner, but we decided that, you know,
04:00let's go see if we can get some other issues taken care of, and we'll come back to that.
04:04And that's basically the way we approached it.
04:05I don't want to knock pundits, Jura80, but most of the pundits said the conspiracy was the easiest one.
04:11That would be not guilty.
04:12The hardest would be the others.
04:14Yeah, it was.
04:16That's why I say we came back to it, and I don't know why we just tabled it, but we decided to table it.
04:20And you're right, it was one of the easier ones to do, but I think that also it balanced out just by completing the other charges against him.
04:31How did Michael appear to you in court?
04:34What was it like to look at this for all these days?
04:37Well, there for a while, you know, you look at him, and you watch his demeanor, you watch his body language, and, yeah, there was days he looked awful.
04:47You know, there was days he looked like he had plenty of sleep.
04:50But after a while, you lose concentration that he's even there.
04:53You know, you're focusing on what's being said in the courtroom, what the lawyers are saying, what the witnesses are testifying to.
04:59So he became, like, secondary to the whole thing, although that's why we were there in the first place is because of him.
05:05When it was finally decided, unanimous, not guilty, were you happy for him?
05:13No, not really.
05:14I think it's just a job that we had to get done, and we did the best that we could.
05:19And we just felt that the job was completed, and rather, I don't know, there were some tears from some of the jury members.
05:26I don't know if there was tears of happiness or tears that it was over with.
05:29But, you know, I had really personally had no real feelings one way or the other.
05:34I just felt like we needed to leave there with a clear mind and saying we did the best that we could with the evidence that we had presented to us.
05:42A couple of other quick things.
05:44I don't really.
05:45A couple of other quick things.
05:46I thank you for giving us the time.
05:47Did his lifestyle, which had to be uncommon to 99.5% of all the people, did that throw you?
05:55We did consider that a lot, you know, just him sleeping with children and so on and so forth.
06:04There's not too many grown men that we know that would do that.
06:06But, again, we had to base it on the evidence presented to us and come out of there with deciding on everything beyond a reasonable doubt.
06:17And I can't emphasize that strongly enough.
06:20So if the evidence was there, we would have worked with it.
06:23But there was a lot of things lacking, so we just didn't have anything that we needed to complete the case.
06:29One other thing before I let you go, Cynthia McFadden has a question for you.
06:34Cynthia?
06:35Yeah, I was wondering, the allegations of past abuse that the prosecutor presented, the so-called 1108 evidence, did you find any of those other allegations credible?
06:47Yes, we did.
06:49You know, to a certain degree, we didn't, again, we couldn't take that as complete evidence to use that as information that we needed to complete this case.
06:59We could just use that as information presented to us of what a pattern could have been developed or so on and so forth.
07:05So you did think there might have been a pattern, just not proof beyond a reasonable doubt in this case.
07:10Is that what you're saying?
07:11Yeah.
07:12Yeah.
07:12Paul, I thank you very much.
07:14Thank you for the time, man.
07:15It was terrific of you.
07:16I know it's been a tough day for you.
07:18Thank you very much, and thank you for your service.
07:22Okay, thank you.
07:23Joining us now by phone is Tito Jackson, one of Michael Jackson's brothers.
07:28He's on a cell phone kicking in and out of you there, Tito.
07:31Hey, Larry, how are you?
07:32How are you?
07:33How, where were you?
07:35Were you in the courtroom?
07:36Yes, I was in the courtroom.
07:38Did you drive back with Michael?
07:40I'm sorry, Larry?
07:41Did you drive back in the car with Michael?
07:44I was in the car behind of Michael's vehicle, third car.
07:48I was in the third car.
07:49What happened when they announced the verdict in your heart?
07:53What was your feeling?
07:54Were you worried?
07:55Of course, everyone would be worried, but as they kept reading the counts, the pressure
08:03was lifting off me, and I was holding my mom tight, and we all cried through every count.
08:09We cried through every count of the justices, so I need to be served, and Mike's a free man.
08:16What's the first thing he said to you?
08:20He told me he loved me, and I told him I love you, too.
08:23Well, how did he hold up today?
08:27Well, it would be hard on anyone, you know.
08:30Michael kept his strength, and he hung in there, and he didn't do any of this, and I think it was a very personal thing on Tom Stetton's part.
08:39And we're going to come into your show, and we'll be able to get more into that.
08:43But, Larry, you know, I also have here with me is my brother, Jermaine, so he wants to get on the phone as well.
08:48Okay, put him on.
08:49I'm going to pass it over to you.
08:51All right.
08:54Hi, Larry.
08:55Hi, Jermaine.
08:55I look forward to sitting down with you in person, but I thank you for joining us with Tito.
09:00Did you ride back with Michael, or were you in a different car?
09:03I was in the third car, but we were very, very, very, very happy.
09:09And like we always felt at the very beginning and knew, he was a thousand percent innocent.
09:15And I'll just say that it takes one person to tell the truth, but it takes many to concoct a lie, and that's what you saw there.
09:22And I just feel that the community up there in Santa Maria is a wonderful community.
09:30There are wonderful taxpayers, but the people who are in power and who are in authority, boy, they need some work.
09:39Because what they have done to, well, what they tried to do in the lives that they put out there against my family and Michael is just ridiculous.
09:49And at the same time, to report, there are reporters reporting all this stuff and going on and on and on,
09:55and then go take a poll and try to see what the poll is going to be around the U.S. is just unfair.
10:02I mean, we kept quiet because we knew all the time justice was going to be served.
10:07It was on our side.
10:09So we can't control what the media is going to say because they weren't reporting the right thing.
10:14So it was suedeing all the viewers and all the public's opinion.
10:20Were you surprised, though, therefore, in view of that, with public opinion polls and the condition of the Santa Maria power structures, you saw it,
10:28were you surprised by any part of this verdict?
10:31I wasn't surprised by any part of this verdict because I always felt and always said that Michael was a thousand percent innocent.
10:39I know why this was done, and I'll say it again.
10:43Chilo and I would love to sit down with you and share it with the world because what's important is that people know who we are
10:50and really know who Michael really is, and that's what's most important.
10:53He's a wonderful, wonderful person, and Neverland was never built to do what they tried to say.
10:58Neverland was built to bring happiness to the kids who are terminally ill and who just want to give them a brighter day.
11:06That's all it was built for.
11:07How are his kids?
11:09His kids are fine.
11:10They're all fine, and the family is just stronger.
11:15We were strong before, but we're stronger now.
11:17And so I dare anybody to try to stand up against us because we are very strong, and that's what a family is supposed to be.
11:24And what are you doing tonight?
11:26Excuse me?
11:27What are you doing tonight?
11:29I'm going to go to sleep early.
11:31We're going to just probably rest because we've been tired.
11:35This has been a long two years or more of just grueling and just, we're just going to just hug each other and jump up and down,
11:44and we can't wait to share this with you when we see you.
11:47Yeah, I look forward to it.
11:48And is Michael going to work again soon?
11:52I really don't know.
11:53Right now he's going to rest, but you know, it's in his blood.
11:57It's in his bones.
11:58And so, but he's going to rest right now and get past all of this, but I will say thank you to all the supporters around the world
12:06and the people who always believe and still believe in my family and Michael and all of us.
12:12So thank you very, very much, Larry.
12:14Thank you.
12:14Do you want to stay on or do you want to come on later in the week?
12:17I want to talk to you in person so you can really, because Tito and I got so much to say,
12:22because we were the ones there and just really, we got something to say.
12:26We'll set it up for you and Tito, and thanks so much for doing this.
12:31Thank you, Larry.
12:32Thank you, Jermaine and Tito.
12:35Jackson, two of Michael's brothers.
12:37The whole panel will assemble your calls later.
12:40We'll be right back.
12:44We, the jury in the above entitled case, find the defendant not guilty of conspiracy,
12:48not guilty of a lewd act upon a minor child,
12:52not guilty of administering an intoxicating agent to assist in the commission of a felony
12:59as charged in count seven of the indictment.
13:01Here's your shot of Neverland.
13:07Let's meet our panel.
13:09In Santa Maria, CNN correspondent Ted Rowlands.
13:12In Neverland, at Neverland, is Brooke Anderson of CNN.
13:15In Santa Maria, Jane Velez Mitchell, the correspondent for Celebrity Justice.
13:19Michael Cardoza, defense attorney and former Alameda County prosecutor.
13:23prosecutor Craig Smith, the former Santa Barbara County prosecutor and Superior Court commissioner.
13:29He knows Tom Sneddon quite well.
13:31He teaches law at Santa Barbara Ventura Colleges of Law.
13:36And here in New York, you've already met her, Cynthia McFadden,
13:38ABC News senior legal correspondent,
13:41co-anchor of Primetime Live,
13:43and broke a lot of exclusives during this Jackson case.
13:46All right, Ted, were you surprised?
13:47Uh, no, because we really didn't know which way this was going.
13:52It was an amazing scene inside and outside the courthouse.
13:56I was outside when the verdicts were read.
13:58The fans, there were hundreds of them, were so quiet you could hear a pin drop.
14:02Everybody listening to the audio feed from inside the courtroom.
14:05And with each not guilty, they would erupt and then quickly get quiet again.
14:09Go ahead.
14:10But you weren't surprised. You yourself.
14:12Well, I sat through this entire trial, uh, except a few weeks,
14:18and, uh, I think that the jury did an excellent job of evaluating the case
14:21and, uh, mulling it over.
14:23And if you listened to the jurors afterwards,
14:25they were a conscientious jury, and they did go through it.
14:28And, uh, you heard Mr. Rodriguez say, uh,
14:31that they just didn't feel like it, uh, was proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
14:35Brooke, were you surprised?
14:37Uh, Larry, you know, like Ted said,
14:41we did not know what to expect.
14:43The fans here, uh, they were gathered as the verdict was read,
14:47and as each count was read not guilty,
14:49we heard elation and cheer.
14:51I know that, but were you surprised?
14:53I'm asking you.
14:56Honestly, uh, you know,
14:57I guess I was a little bit surprised
14:59that all ten counts not guilty,
15:01but then you never know what these twelve jurors are thinking,
15:04and this is what the jury found,
15:06and this is what we're going to go with.
15:08Cynthia, you surprised?
15:09Yes, I was surprised, Larry.
15:11I'll tell you why.
15:12Usually when the state gets to offer evidence,
15:14like it did in this case,
15:15the 1108 evidence,
15:17which is really powerful evidence,
15:19these past allegations of bad acts,
15:21it's very difficult for the defense to prevail.
15:23So, yeah, I was surprised.
15:25I think this was an absolute rejection
15:26of the prosecution, uh, argument.
15:29It was a wipeout, right?
15:29It was a wipeout,
15:31and, uh, I have to say I was surprised
15:32that they, that the, uh, prosecution was able
15:35to get absolutely not one vote for, for...
15:37Jane Velez-Mitchell, were you surprised?
15:40I was surprised, Larry,
15:41because I was sitting in the courtroom,
15:43and when the jurors filed in,
15:45they looked grim.
15:46They looked very serious,
15:48and then they did not make eye contact
15:50with Michael Jackson,
15:52and normally that's not a good sign for the defendant.
15:54Michael Jackson, by the way,
15:55looked terrified as he walked in,
15:57almost as if it was an effort
15:59to get to the defendant's chair,
16:01but then boom, boom, boom,
16:02not guilty across the board,
16:04so it was an absolute stunner,
16:06and the room was surrounded in sobs.
16:08I had sobs behind me,
16:09the fans sobbing,
16:11Mother Catherine,
16:12two seats in front of me sobbing,
16:13uh, Michael Jackson had the tissue
16:15going up to his eye,
16:16and those on the side
16:17who could see him said
16:18he was crying.
16:19His attorney,
16:20one of them,
16:21Susan Yu,
16:21was sobbing,
16:22and then I look over
16:23at one of the jurors,
16:24uh, who's a mother of four,
16:25and she was sobbing outright,
16:28so a lot of tears
16:29in that courtroom.
16:30Michael, same question of everybody.
16:31Were you surprised?
16:33No, I wasn't,
16:34but remember what happened
16:35at the beginning of this case, Larry?
16:37All the legal pundits were saying
16:39not guilty all along.
16:41Then as this trial progressed,
16:43and that prior sexual misconduct
16:45came in,
16:45the famous 1108 evidence,
16:47as that came in,
16:49some people started to say,
16:50uh-oh, we might get
16:52a guilty verdict in this case.
16:54And then closing arguments came.
16:55I thought Mesereau gave
16:56a very, very good closing argument.
16:58Ron Zonin,
16:59I think he really out-argued him,
17:01gave a great closing argument,
17:02brought the case even closer.
17:05Anything could have happened.
17:06I was really expecting,
17:07either way wouldn't have surprised me.
17:08Was I surprised?
17:10No, but I'll tell you what,
17:11the jury did the right thing
17:12in this case,
17:12because they isolated out
17:14the accuser's crime in this one.
17:16They took the accuser,
17:17the accuser's family,
17:19looked at that,
17:19and said didn't prove it
17:20beyond a reasonable doubt,
17:22and shoved that 1108 aside.
17:23Craig Smith,
17:24what'd you think?
17:26Well, was I surprised?
17:28Yes and no.
17:29We knew all along
17:30that it was a very close case,
17:31that it was on the fence.
17:33Certainly,
17:34when the case went to the jury,
17:35people thought
17:36it could go either way.
17:37No one could call it.
17:39I really thought
17:39there was going to be
17:40some kind of split verdict,
17:42some type of compromise.
17:43I thought at the very least,
17:45they would find
17:46Michael Jackson guilty
17:47of one of the lesser included
17:49offenses of simply furnishing alcohol,
17:51but they didn't even find him
17:52guilty of that,
17:54so I am surprised.
17:55We'll take a break
17:56and come back,
17:56and when we come back,
17:57Angel Howanski,
17:58a Jackson family spokesman,
18:00and majestic, magnificent,
18:01Michael Jackson's friend,
18:03confidant,
18:03and personal magician.
18:05I never had one of those.
18:07We'll join us.
18:07We'll be right back.
18:08We join now
18:26in Santa Maria, California,
18:28by one of Michael Jackson's
18:29closest friends and confidants,
18:31majestic, magnificent,
18:32who is called
18:33Michael's personal magician.
18:35What does a personal magician do?
18:36That's something
18:38that the press is labeling on me.
18:40I'm not Michael's personal magician.
18:42I just happen to be a magician
18:43from Muhammad Ali
18:44transferred to Michael.
18:46Well, I want to answer that question
18:47that you ask everybody else.
18:49I had no doubt whatsoever
18:50Michael will be acquitted
18:51on all the charges.
18:53Neither did Michael.
18:53From the very beginning,
18:54he said over and over again,
18:55justice will prevail
18:56and I will be acquitted
18:57and you will see.
18:58I'm innocent.
19:00Are you saying,
19:00majestic,
19:01then this morning
19:02when you got up,
19:03you weren't worried at all?
19:05Not even a little bit
19:07because I know his character.
19:08I know he would not hurt a child
19:10and if justice is going to be fair,
19:12not unlike these tabloid shows,
19:15you have incredible journalists,
19:17but these people like Nancy Grace,
19:18Diane Diamond,
19:19all these people trying
19:20Michael in the press,
19:21that is not in the courtroom.
19:22It's the normal people
19:23in the jurors
19:24that make the decision.
19:25That's how I know
19:26he was going to be acquitted.
19:27How's the family doing?
19:29Great, wonderful.
19:30I just spoke to Randy.
19:31Everybody enjoying the moment
19:32of happiness
19:33and they all together
19:34and having this like,
19:35hey, it's over
19:37and Michael will be making music.
19:40He will be singing.
19:40He will be dancing.
19:41You know,
19:42can't nobody do
19:43what Michael do on stage.
19:44So people say
19:45he can't make a comeback
19:46and all this.
19:46He's never been nowhere.
19:47They just tied him up
19:49for a while.
19:49So you're saying
19:50he's coming back?
19:52Oh my God.
19:53Name somebody
19:54that can sing and dance
19:55like Michael there.
19:56Did you see it?
19:57I don't want to see that.
19:58Did you talk to him today?
20:00No, I haven't.
20:01I just spoke to Randy today.
20:03When are you going to see him?
20:05Probably this week sometime.
20:06I'm going over.
20:07I'm sure there's going to be
20:07something in the next
20:08couple of coming days.
20:09I'll probably go out
20:10to the ranch sometime.
20:11Thank you, Majestic.
20:12Always good seeing you.
20:13Majestic, magnificent.
20:14You too.
20:15Not a personal magician.
20:16Just happens to be a magician.
20:18We're glad we cleared that up.
20:19Thank you for being fair.
20:21Thank you so much.
20:22Thank you.
20:23We always try to be that.
20:24Ted Rollins,
20:25the crowd outside,
20:27as you discussed them earlier,
20:28they were jumping,
20:29they were happy, etc.
20:30What was the Jackson family like
20:32when they came out?
20:34Very subdued.
20:36Relief, I think,
20:37would be the way
20:38to characterize them.
20:39Michael Jackson
20:40waved to the crowd,
20:41but by no means
20:42were they raising their fists
20:43or smiling or high-fiving,
20:45not by any stretch
20:46of the imagination.
20:48Tom Mesereau
20:48was also very businesslike,
20:50almost as if, you know,
20:51they were relieved
20:52and almost angered, too,
20:54that they had to put forth
20:55so much effort,
20:56so much heartache
20:57to get to this point,
20:58but not maybe
21:00what you would think.
21:01At least maybe
21:02that surprised me.
21:03I thought there would be
21:04more smiles
21:04and more of a, you know,
21:07a pleased aura around them,
21:08but it was pretty,
21:09it was just,
21:10let's get out of here,
21:11let's get home
21:12type of feeling you got.
21:13And, Brooke Anderson,
21:14what happened
21:14when they got home?
21:16Oh, when they got home, Larry,
21:18they were greeted
21:18by hundreds of fans.
21:20I even saw a part
21:21of Jackson's staff
21:22at Neverland
21:23walk to the gate.
21:25I saw housekeepers,
21:26I saw chefs
21:27waving at him,
21:28cheering him on.
21:29The mood of the fans
21:31has definitely changed today
21:32from tense and anxious
21:34to celebratory
21:35and excited.
21:37We've seen some
21:38of the family members leave.
21:39We've seen Randy
21:40and Tito and Joe leave.
21:41We haven't seen signs
21:43of Michael Jackson yet
21:44and I estimate
21:45there are about 200 fans
21:47here right now.
21:48Some of them tell me
21:49they're waiting
21:49to see Michael,
21:51hoping that he'll invite them
21:52into Neverland.
21:54Jane Velez-Mitchell,
21:55what do you gather
21:56public opinion
21:57will be of this,
21:58generally?
22:00Well, in general,
22:01I think that people
22:03are going to say
22:04that's the way it goes
22:05with celebrities.
22:06There's celebrity justice
22:07and then there's justice
22:08for everyone else,
22:10although I do think
22:11that they will accept
22:13the jury's decision.
22:14I think people
22:15really feel this jury
22:17did as good a job
22:18as anyone could possibly do.
22:20They weighed the evidence,
22:22they worked hard,
22:23and they really fought
22:25to be fair.
22:26And I think that
22:27they acquitted themselves
22:28in how they handled this.
22:29So I think that
22:30the general public,
22:31while possibly thinking,
22:32well, something fishy
22:33is going on over there,
22:34is going to accept
22:36that Michael Jackson
22:38is not guilty
22:39of these particular charges.
22:41We'll take a break
22:41and be right back.
22:42We'll meet Angel Howanski,
22:43a Jackson family spokesperson,
22:45Deborah Opry,
22:46attorney for members
22:47of the family,
22:47Jesse Jackson.
22:48More of our panel.
22:49Don't go away.
22:51Obviously,
22:52we're disappointed
22:53in the verdict,
22:54but we work every day
22:56in a system of justice.
22:57We believe in the system
22:58of justice.
23:00And I've been a prosecutor
23:01for 37 years,
23:02and 37 years,
23:04I've never quarreled
23:04with a jury's verdict.
23:06And I'm not going
23:07to start today.
23:16We're back on what will be
23:17a historic day,
23:18June 13th.
23:20Joining us now
23:20from Santa Maria
23:21is Angel Howanski,
23:23the Jackson family spokesman.
23:25First,
23:25people have been asking
23:26this, Angel,
23:27how's Michael's health?
23:30Michael,
23:30this was definitely
23:32a long trial
23:33for Michael.
23:34I believe he just
23:35was a little dehydrated.
23:37But other than that,
23:39I know right now
23:40he's probably eating
23:42and having a good time.
23:43I'm not sure.
23:44Where were you
23:45when the verdict came in?
23:48I was actually
23:48upstairs.
23:50There's a section
23:51where they have
23:52the family upstairs
23:53in the courthouse.
23:54I was upstairs.
23:55And then when I heard
23:56that when everybody
23:58started running,
23:59I ran downstairs
24:00so I can hear
24:00everything too.
24:01There's only so many
24:02seats for the family
24:03in the courtroom
24:04and family comes first.
24:06So I wasn't in there,
24:07but I was upstairs.
24:09Did you talk to Michael?
24:11I have not spoken
24:12to him yet.
24:13I have spoken
24:13to the parents.
24:15What did they say?
24:16You know, they are so happy
24:19this is behind them.
24:21They are so overwhelmed.
24:22This was a very long trial
24:23and I really admire
24:25Mrs. Jackson.
24:27Every day she came to court,
24:29never missed a day
24:30and that was a lot for her.
24:33And I'm so glad.
24:34And they're happy
24:35that this is over with
24:36so they can put this behind them
24:37and move forward.
24:38And I just love that family.
24:40They are very generous people
24:42and Michael should not
24:43have gone through this
24:44and he was finally able
24:45to tell the world
24:46that he is innocent
24:49and no one else
24:50can question that anymore
24:51and I'm so proud.
24:52They also are,
24:53as Jermaine and Tito
24:54spoke with us earlier,
24:55they're also angry.
24:57Do you understand that?
24:59Absolutely.
25:00I understand that.
25:00He shouldn't have gone
25:01through this in the first place.
25:03And for him to have to
25:04go through all of this
25:05publicly,
25:07his family went through
25:08a lot as well
25:09and there's definitely
25:09going to be a lot of anger.
25:11I understand
25:11because this should not
25:13have happened
25:13in the first place.
25:15Majestic says he's definitely
25:17gone back to singing
25:18and performing.
25:19Do you concur?
25:20I concur.
25:23The world would be
25:24at a loss
25:25if Michael Jackson
25:25did not get back out
25:27and sing and perform.
25:30His music,
25:31I had talked to
25:31some Koreans today
25:33and they told me
25:33that Michael's music
25:35liberated them,
25:37liberated Hong Kong
25:38and I'm just,
25:39there's no one
25:39in the world like him.
25:41What happened
25:42to the other spokesperson?
25:45Ramon?
25:46Yeah.
25:47I'm not,
25:48I wasn't involved in that.
25:50I am not sure
25:51exactly what happened.
25:53I've been with the family
25:54for 15 years.
25:56I've been a long time
25:57family friend
25:58and then I started
25:58representing the parents
25:59probably since
26:02the last time,
26:031993.
26:04But I wasn't involved
26:05with the other spokesperson
26:06and it wouldn't be fair
26:07to me to make a comment
26:08on that at all.
26:09What do you think
26:10the public's perception
26:11of Michael is now?
26:12Do you think they'll view
26:13this as a celebrity
26:14who got off
26:14or a guy who got
26:16a fair trial
26:16and was judged fairly?
26:18When I was out
26:20with the family,
26:20when I was out
26:21with the parents
26:21specifically,
26:23you would not believe
26:24that the people
26:25that came out of nowhere
26:26and told the family
26:27that they support them
26:29and that Michael
26:29should have never
26:30gone through this.
26:30I don't believe
26:31he's going to be known
26:32as a celebrity
26:32that got off.
26:33From my understanding
26:34and what I know
26:35of the family,
26:35they're very generous people,
26:36they're very loving
26:37and they're very sharing
26:38and those who really
26:40know them
26:41really know
26:42that that's how they are.
26:43Michael loves children,
26:44he gives millions
26:45and millions of dollars
26:46to children
26:47and to charities
26:48and people,
26:51you know,
26:52the media made it seem
26:54like the public
26:55was anti-Michael
26:57and we found
26:58quite the opposite.
26:59The public loves
27:01Michael Jackson
27:01and the minute
27:02the verdicts came in
27:03I got calls
27:03from Norway,
27:05I've got calls
27:06from South Africa,
27:07all over the world
27:07with people crying,
27:09singing in their
27:10different languages
27:10for Michael
27:11and just tears of joy
27:12and I'm so happy
27:13for him that he stood
27:15and he stood strong.
27:17Thank you.
27:17Angel Howanski,
27:18the Jackson family
27:19spokesperson
27:20from Santa Maria.
27:21Back to Santa Maria
27:22and Michael Cardoza.
27:23Did the prosecution
27:24goof?
27:27No, I don't think
27:28they did goof
27:29in this case.
27:31Well,
27:32maybe a little goof
27:33and what I mean
27:35by that is
27:36with Sneddon
27:37back in 93-94,
27:39he loses
27:39the Jordi Chandler
27:40prosecution
27:41because of that
27:42$20 million settlement.
27:43All right,
27:44that said,
27:45then what he does
27:45in my opinion
27:46is put Jackson
27:47in his crosshairs.
27:48He's looking
27:49to get Michael Jackson
27:50and I'm sure
27:52he believed
27:52Michael's a pedophile
27:53so he's saying
27:54I got a pedophile
27:55loose in my county,
27:56not going to happen.
27:57Then this family
27:59walks in,
27:59I think he was
28:00a little too quick
28:01to believe them
28:03and didn't really
28:04look at their background
28:05that carefully,
28:05didn't look at
28:06the J.C. Penney case,
28:07didn't look to the fact
28:08that they committed
28:09perjury in that case,
28:10brought this case
28:11and what he did,
28:12he bolstered this case
28:13with a prior misconduct,
28:15the sexual misconduct.
28:16That made this case
28:17a lot stronger.
28:19But as I said,
28:19the jury did the right thing.
28:20They looked at this case
28:21and said,
28:22you didn't prove it.
28:23Cynthia,
28:23do you think
28:24they were too zealous?
28:25The prosecutors?
28:26Yeah.
28:26Well, listen,
28:27I think they certainly
28:28appeared that way,
28:29at least to the public.
28:30You know,
28:30we didn't ask the jurors
28:31about what their opinion
28:32of the prosecutors were,
28:33but listen,
28:34I think if you're a prosecutor
28:36and a young man
28:38comes into your office
28:39and says that he has been
28:40sexually molested
28:41by a man who you know
28:42has previously settled
28:44several other similar cases
28:46for multi-millions of dollars,
28:48you have an obligation
28:48to investigate.
28:49Now, maybe Michael's right.
28:50Maybe a due investigation
28:53would have suggested
28:53that the case
28:54shouldn't go forward
28:54because we knew
28:55from the start
28:56there were credibility problems
28:57with this accuser
28:58and his mother.
28:59But I certainly don't think
29:00the prosecutor was misguided
29:01in bringing these charges initially.
29:03Now, whether or not
29:04they should have proceeded,
29:05I don't think they tried
29:06the case very well.
29:07Listen,
29:07when you make your opening statement
29:09and say your witnesses
29:09are going to say one thing
29:10and then either you don't
29:11produce the witnesses
29:12or they say the direct opposite,
29:13you've got a problem.
29:14And we all know
29:15that's what happened.
29:15Craig Smith,
29:16you're a former prosecutor.
29:18Was this,
29:19do you have questions
29:20about the way
29:20this was prosecuted?
29:22I really don't
29:23and I have to disagree
29:24with what my friend
29:26Michael Cardoza
29:27had to say.
29:29Tom Sneddon
29:30has not had Michael Jackson
29:31in his crosshairs
29:32ever since 1993.
29:34He did have the rug
29:36pulled out from under him
29:37with the settlement
29:38of that earlier case
29:39for the 20 or so million dollars.
29:42But he was not pursuing
29:43Michael Jackson
29:44all these years.
29:45This case came to him.
29:47And so once this case
29:48came to him
29:49and there was credible evidence
29:50to believe
29:51there was probable cause
29:52that Michael Jackson
29:53had done these things,
29:54I think Tom felt
29:55he had an obligation
29:57to follow through.
29:59And indeed,
29:59many of the things
30:00they did to try
30:01to check out
30:02and corroborate
30:03this story
30:04and what ultimately
30:05led to the filing
30:06of the conspiracy charge,
30:07the fact that there were
30:08these surveillance tapes
30:10found in the office
30:12of Mark Garagos' investigator
30:15when they went out
30:16and executed the search warrant.
30:18That added strength.
30:19Unfortunately,
30:20for the prosecution,
30:22when they actually
30:23got into trial,
30:24every time there was a break,
30:25it could have been
30:26a good break for them
30:27or a bad break,
30:28it always went
30:29a bad break.
30:30For instance,
30:31they had more evidence
30:32before the grand jury
30:33on the conspiracy
30:34and the furnishing alcohol
30:36than they had
30:37in front of the trial jury.
30:39Remember,
30:39they lost a crucial witness
30:41because their crucial witness
30:42got arrested
30:43and therefore was unable
30:44to or unavailable
30:45to testify at the trial.
30:47Let me get a break
30:47and we'll come back
30:48with more.
30:48Don't go away.
30:50I was very uncomfortable
30:51with that.
30:53A lot of the witnesses
30:54looked over at us
30:56from time to time,
30:57but then they'd look back,
30:58but she didn't take
30:59her eyes off of us,
31:01so that was a very
31:02uncomfortable feeling.
31:03I disliked it intensely
31:05when she snapped
31:06her fingers at us.
31:08That's when I thought,
31:09don't snap your fingers
31:10at me, lady.
31:17We're back
31:18on Larry King Live.
31:18That's the fingers
31:19of Ted Rollins
31:20holding the latest edition
31:22of the Santa Maria Times.
31:24Not guilty on all counts.
31:26Understand, Ted,
31:26you also have a poll result,
31:28right?
31:29Yeah, CNN USA Today
31:30Gallup poll is out
31:32already on this.
31:33Verdict in the
31:34Michael Jackson case,
31:3634% of those polled
31:38say they agree with it,
31:3948% say they disagree.
31:42This is an interesting one.
31:43Outraged by the verdict
31:45in the Jackson trial
31:46is the question.
31:47Yes, 24%, no, 73%.
31:51Clearly, people maybe not
31:53agreeing with the verdict,
31:55but by no stretch
31:55of the imagination,
31:57outraged.
31:57And then the question
31:58you asked, everybody,
31:59are you surprised
32:00by the verdict?
32:01Yes, 47%, no, 52%.
32:04The latest.
32:05Surprised, Cynthia?
32:06Of CNN and USA Today.
32:07Are you surprised
32:08at that poll?
32:09I think that's really interesting.
32:1234% supported
32:13and 47% don't?
32:1548% disagree with the verdict.
32:16You know, it's really hard,
32:17especially when you're
32:18not in the courtroom, Larry.
32:19I mean, it's easy
32:20to have a 3,000-mile-away opinion.
32:22And I think that, you know,
32:23those of us...
32:23Well, you haven't
32:23attended the trial.
32:24Yeah, we haven't seen it all.
32:26I mean, one of the virtues
32:26of having a camera
32:27in the courtroom
32:28is that the public
32:29actually has a much
32:29more informed opinion
32:30because they get
32:31to evaluate
32:32the witnesses
32:32for themselves
32:33and not through
32:34the filters
32:35of those of us
32:36of the court.
32:36Jane Mitchell,
32:37why do you think
32:37more people aren't upset?
32:39They may disagree with it,
32:41but only 30% or...
32:43Less than 30%
32:44are upset.
32:46Because they've been
32:46hearing about this case
32:48from the beginning
32:49and they've been hearing
32:49about the problems
32:50with this case.
32:51The timeline,
32:52the conspiracy charge
32:53that was so problematical,
32:55the cover-up,
32:56the conspiracy,
32:57begins 19 days
32:58before the alleged molestation.
33:00And people,
33:01pundits have been saying,
33:01what are they covering up
33:03before an alleged incident
33:04even occurs?
33:05And the jurors themselves
33:07said during their news conference
33:08that the timeline
33:09did bother them.
33:11There were a lot of things
33:12that just didn't make sense
33:13and add up
33:13about the prosecution's case
33:15and they never fully
33:16explained them away.
33:18And you can't convict somebody
33:19because you have a gut feeling
33:20or something doesn't seem right
33:22when you have
33:23a 98-page jury instruction book.
33:25Chicago,
33:26to Reverend Jesse Jackson,
33:27the spiritual advisor
33:29to Michael Jackson,
33:30founder and president
33:30of the Rainbow Push Coalition.
33:32Were you surprised, really?
33:35Well, I had a queasy feeling.
33:37Really, I felt the pain
33:39and the stress.
33:40I hoped for the best.
33:41I really expected the worst.
33:43In the sense that
33:44the jury was never sequestered
33:46and there were really
33:47two trials.
33:48That was the public media trial
33:51and that was the courtroom trial.
33:53And then in the media trial,
33:55you had the talk to your host,
33:58whether it was Nancy Grace,
33:59or O'Reilly,
34:00and a thousand others,
34:01said Michael was guilty.
34:03Over and over again,
34:04Court TV,
34:05Michael is guilty.
34:07And yet,
34:07in the courtroom,
34:09they discern opinions
34:11and impressions
34:12from fact and evidence.
34:15And they were able
34:16to make a distinction
34:17and I was delighted
34:18that they did,
34:19but I was not sure
34:19that they could.
34:20Did you talk to Michael?
34:22This morning,
34:23he called me this morning.
34:24We did have a talk today.
34:27Michael has had
34:27the combination
34:28of the extreme,
34:30excruciating pain
34:31in his back
34:32before he had
34:32in Munich, Germany.
34:33complicated now
34:35by the stress
34:36he was going on there.
34:37And I suppose
34:38with that kind of pain
34:39and stress,
34:40it takes for your appetite.
34:41So he lost a lot,
34:42lost a lot of weight.
34:43But some of his own
34:44sense of his own
34:45innocence.
34:47And he felt
34:48confidence in this jury,
34:50confidence in Mesereau,
34:51and he felt
34:51that he would be
34:52in fact,
34:53exonerated today
34:55and in the end
34:55that happened.
34:56Did you pray
34:57with him on the phone?
34:57What was the call about?
34:58Well, he called
35:01because that was
35:02a concern about
35:03the outcome
35:04of the trial today.
35:05And throughout the thing,
35:06excuse me,
35:08I've said to Michael,
35:09as he declared
35:10as innocence,
35:10that if you have,
35:12the jury has the faith,
35:14you must have the faith
35:15and God has the power.
35:16That you are a champion.
35:18And sometimes,
35:19excuse me,
35:20champions fall down,
35:22you get up again.
35:23The ground is no place
35:24for a champion.
35:25And I tried to keep
35:26his spirits bolstered.
35:28Thank you very much,
35:31Jesse.
35:32Reverend Jesse Jackson,
35:33the spiritual advisor
35:34to Michael Jackson
35:35from his hometown
35:36of Chicago.
35:37We'll be back
35:38with more of our panel.
35:39Don't go away.
35:39Tomorrow night on Larry King Live,
36:00an exclusive primetime interview
36:02with Tom Mesereau,
36:03a very happy man tonight,
36:04the very successful
36:05defense attorney
36:06in this case.
36:08What happens to his career,
36:09Cynthia?
36:10Home run.
36:11I mean,
36:11nothing could have been
36:12more high profile.
36:13Tom Mesereau has a lot
36:14to applaud tonight.
36:15He's through the roof now,
36:16right?
36:16He is.
36:17I mean,
36:17he will be getting phone calls
36:18from everybody
36:19who gets in trouble.
36:20Cardozo,
36:20you jealous?
36:23Am I jealous,
36:23you know?
36:24On a certain level,
36:25sure,
36:25I would have loved
36:26to have tried this case,
36:27but kudos to him.
36:28He tried a heck of a case.
36:29He put it on the line.
36:30He did it all.
36:31He did it right.
36:32He won.
36:33That's great.
36:33I'm really happy for him.
36:34I think he's a great guy.
36:36I talked to him a little bit
36:37during the trial
36:38because the bailiffs
36:39would shoo us off.
36:40You know,
36:41don't talk.
36:41You can't talk.
36:42But I think it's great for him
36:43and I'm really happy for him.
36:45And if I might add,
36:46you know why people are mad,
36:47Larry?
36:47Remember that poll
36:48you just talked about?
36:49Because there are some people
36:50who by that 1108,
36:52the past prior sexual misconduct,
36:54think that Michael Jackson
36:55is a pedophile.
36:56And if they have that mindset,
36:58they're going to say,
36:58I don't care if he did this one.
37:00I would have found him guilty
37:01and I would have kept him
37:02off the street.
37:03I'm not letting him
37:04out another little boy.
37:05And those are the people
37:05who say they're outraged.
37:07Craig,
37:08do you think people,
37:10the viewer at home
37:11was thrown by the pundits
37:13that they may have built
37:15an opinion based on
37:16what the pundits were saying
37:17that had nothing to do
37:18with what the jury was thinking?
37:21Well,
37:22I don't know that people
37:23were really thrown
37:24and I don't know
37:24that the pundits
37:25were uniformly predicting
37:27a verdict of guilty
37:29on the molestation charges.
37:30I think for every pundit
37:32or analyst
37:33that you could find
37:34that thought it was going well
37:35for the prosecution,
37:36there were at least
37:37one or two others
37:38who thought
37:38that the defense
37:39was going to pull it out.
37:40So I don't think
37:41people were fooled
37:42by whatever the pundits
37:44were predicting.
37:45I'm going to take a break,
37:46come back,
37:46and get a final comment
37:47from all of our panelists
37:48on what happens
37:49to Michael Jackson now.
37:51Don't go away.
37:53We all came in
37:54with our personal beliefs
37:55and some of those
37:56did differ,
37:57but we spent
37:58a lot of time
37:59really seriously
38:00studying the evidence
38:01and looking at the testimony
38:03and the jury instructions
38:05and obviously came
38:07to an agreement.
38:10Before we get
38:11some final thoughts
38:12from our panel,
38:12we're going to meet
38:13another juror.
38:13Raymond Haltman
38:14is joining us
38:15from Santa Maria.
38:17Raymond,
38:17what did you think
38:18of the prosecution
38:19and how well
38:20or didn't not well
38:22they presented this case?
38:23Larry,
38:27I think they
38:28presented the case
38:30probably as well
38:31as they could have
38:32under the circumstances.
38:35I think where the jury
38:37was left
38:38with some questions
38:39was the fact
38:42that there was
38:44not enough evidence
38:45to directly point
38:47to the accuser
38:49and I think
38:51that was the most
38:52troublesome issue
38:54with the whole
38:58deliberation thing.
38:59Did you ever,
39:00Raymond,
39:01come close to guilty
39:02on any of the counts
39:03yourself?
39:06Well,
39:06to be quite honest
39:07and everyone
39:09in the deliberation room
39:11was aware of this,
39:14I had some real
39:16strong feelings
39:18toward guilt
39:20after I viewed
39:22the sheriff's interview
39:23with Gavin Arvizo
39:24and I don't know
39:27if it was because
39:28of some naivety
39:31on my part
39:32but in any event
39:35it was quite,
39:36it was quite compelling
39:37to me
39:38but that's really
39:40not completely
39:42what this trial
39:45was all about
39:45or what the deliberation
39:47was all about.
39:47it had to do
39:48with other circumstances
39:51that were taking place
39:54and just basically
39:56the credibility
39:57of the witness.
39:58Did other jurors
40:00say,
40:00talk other jurors
40:01out of opinions?
40:02Did someone say,
40:03I think this
40:04and another juror
40:05would say,
40:05well,
40:05you ought to think this?
40:08No,
40:09I don't think
40:09anybody was really
40:11talked out
40:12of an opinion.
40:12it was more of
40:15presenting additional
40:21information
40:22about the timing
40:24of certain events.
40:26I mean,
40:27it's very conceivable
40:31that somebody
40:32can appear
40:33to be telling
40:35the truth
40:36and their demeanor
40:37would indicate that
40:38and everything else
40:39but when you
40:41look at
40:42past history
40:43of the accuser
40:46there's some doubt.
40:50There's room
40:51for reasonable doubt.
40:52And you didn't let...
40:53Really,
40:54that's what it was all about.
40:55You didn't let
40:55the past record
40:56of Michael Jackson
40:57affect you
40:58with regard
40:58to this charge.
41:02No,
41:02it affected me.
41:04It affected me,
41:05certainly.
41:06There were some
41:07jurors
41:09that I
41:10think
41:11would have you
41:13believe that
41:14this was all about
41:15the accuser
41:16and all about
41:17the Arvizos
41:18in this particular case.
41:20But I tried
41:21to make it
41:21quite clear
41:22that I felt
41:23it was very important
41:24to consider
41:25all of the evidence
41:27in the case
41:28including
41:28the evidence
41:29that was presented
41:30from 93-94
41:32all of the other
41:34circumstances
41:36surrounding
41:37the actual
41:38molestation
41:40accusation.
41:42But
41:42that evidence
41:45could only be used
41:46in the case
41:47of the 93-94
41:48case
41:48to show
41:49a possible
41:50pattern
41:51that Michael
41:52Jackson
41:52may do
41:54this
41:55kind of crime.
41:58But when it
42:00came right down
42:01to it
42:01we were looking
42:02at 10 counts
42:03in this case
42:04that dealt
42:05with very
42:06specific items
42:07and they were
42:09all directed
42:09at the accuser
42:11the
42:11Gavin Arvizo
42:13and we had
42:14to make
42:15a decision
42:15on that
42:16and it
42:16showed
42:16that there
42:17could be
42:17reasonable doubt.
42:18So you will
42:19sleep well
42:19tonight?
42:21I will
42:22sleep well.
42:23I mean
42:23I don't
42:23think
42:24I lost
42:25any
42:26of my
42:27convictions.
42:29I feel
42:35that
42:36Michael
42:37Jackson
42:38probably
42:40has
42:40molested
42:41boys.
42:42I cannot
42:42believe
42:43that
42:44after some
42:45of the
42:45testimony
42:47was offered
42:47I can't
42:48believe
42:48that
42:49this man
42:51could sleep
42:52in the same
42:53bedroom
42:54for 365
42:55straight
42:56days
42:56and not
42:59do something
43:00more than
43:01just watch
43:01television
43:02and eat
43:02popcorn.
43:04I mean
43:04that doesn't
43:05make sense
43:05to me
43:05but that
43:06doesn't
43:06make him
43:07guilty
43:07of the
43:08charges
43:08that were
43:08presented
43:09in this
43:09case
43:10and that's
43:11where we
43:11had to
43:11make our
43:12decision.
43:13Thank you
43:13Raymond.
43:14Raymond
43:14Holtman
43:14a very
43:15honest
43:15appraisal.
43:16Thank you
43:17Raymond
43:17very much.
43:18Extraordinary
43:18huh Cynthia?
43:19Really Larry
43:20these two
43:20jurors
43:21have been
43:21just
43:22fascinating.
43:22Both of
43:23them
43:23suggest
43:23that they
43:24thought
43:24there
43:24was
43:24some
43:24truth
43:25to
43:25the
43:25allegations
43:26of
43:26past
43:27molestation
43:27but
43:28there
43:28wasn't
43:28enough
43:29in
43:29this
43:29case.
43:30Very
43:30interesting.
43:32Yeah.
43:32Isn't it
43:33to you
43:33Jane?
43:35Oh
43:36absolutely
43:36and I
43:37think
43:37what
43:37that
43:37juror
43:38just
43:38said
43:39hits
43:39a nail
43:39on
43:39the
43:40head.
43:40Michael
43:40Jackson
43:41obviously
43:41still
43:42has
43:42huge
43:43image
43:43problems
43:44but
43:44America
43:45is
43:45willing
43:46to
43:46forgive
43:47as
43:47long
43:48as
43:48the
43:48individual
43:48in
43:48question
43:49admits
43:49the
43:49mistakes
43:50they
43:50did
43:50make
43:51and
43:51is
43:51willing
43:52to
43:52change
43:52and
43:53grow
43:53and
43:53I
43:53think
43:54that's
43:54the
43:54real
43:54challenge
43:54for
43:55Jackson
43:55can
43:55he
43:55change
43:56and
43:56can
43:56he
43:56grow
43:56and
43:56learn
43:57from
43:57all
43:57this
43:57I
43:58apologize
43:58to
43:58the
43:58rest
43:58of
44:22we
44:23we
44:23taped
44:23them
44:23earlier
44:23and
44:24it
44:24will
44:24air
44:24Sunday
44:25night
44:25on
44:25Father's
44:26Day
44:26night
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44:27
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