- 5 days ago
Belen de los Santos (teleSUR) and Kris Yang (China Academy) exchange views from different sides of the world on Trump's new mandate and its impact on the global scene. teleSUR
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00:00Welcome to this episode of Overlap. I'm Chris from the China Academy. Today I'm really happy,
00:11really thrilled to be joined by Belen de los Santos from Telesur, which is an influential
00:16Latin American news network, to discuss how Trump is perceived in Latin America and China.
00:23Welcome. Let's just start from the general view. Do people like him or hate him?
00:27So that's a complex question, right? We cannot think its relationship with the United States
00:34without thinking its history of the U.S. imperialist ambitions and relations with the
00:42Latin American and Caribbean region. We would need to think back to the Monroe Doctrine and this idea
00:49of the U.S. constantly perceiving Latin America and the Caribbean as its so-called backyard,
00:57this idea that it's an area to control, it's an area to discipline also, it's an area where no one
01:05else can come and play, so to speak. So that is definitely playing a part and that has developed
01:12a long tradition and a long history of very anti-imperialist sentiments in many of the peoples,
01:20in many of these countries. We need to keep in mind that a lot of the people today in Latin America
01:27have had personal history or their families still remember moments of direct intervention.
01:34Central America has a lot of history of direct invasions, the Panama Temple, for example,
01:41without even talking about the history of Cuba, the history of Venezuela.
01:44So we, of course, need to start thinking that there's a big anti-imperialist sentiment in the
01:52region that translates to a negative image of Trump. And most polls have pointed this out in the first
02:02presidency. But one thing that we need to keep in mind is that in the last few years, there's been
02:09some far-right sectors in this region that have taken to Trump as sort of like a role model.
02:17So we have like Millet in Argentina and we had Bolsonaro in Brazil and we have Bukele in El Salvador.
02:24They have looked up at Trump as a possible like role model leader, like this outcast figure that comes
02:31to disrupt the whole thing. And their followers also look up at this sort of leadership. So those two
02:39things, I think that would be a good point to start, those two things are colliding, are contributing to
02:44this polarization that is seen across the world. But in Latin America, it takes like that shift.
02:50OK, you mentioned there are some far-right politicians in Brazil previously and Argentina right now.
02:58From what I see and what I read, Trump also is closely aligned with someone like people like Steve Bannon,
03:08who claims to be a traditionalist and also the mentor of the previous president of Brazil,
03:15who's also a self-claimed traditionalist, Olavo de Carvalho, who I believe you might know very well.
03:22You were right on the spot there. This like sort of Trump followers or this new leaders that imitate
03:30that idea are also building on those sentiments that have their correlations in this region. So we
03:39need to keep in mind that, for example, from the first decade of the 21st century, we had a lot of
03:47progressive, like the progressive wave in Latin America, and also a very good economic period
03:55for the region. And that started to change economically. It started to change. And the
04:00real material lives of these people, in many cases, worsened, as they did worldwide. But in this region,
04:07this also became an anger sentiment in some sectors of society, which saw that these models,
04:15in some cases, either weren't working or weren't working as well, or you had a lot of external
04:21conditions. So these leaders, Bolsonaro in Brazil, as you were mentioning later on, Milena Argentina,
04:28who's now the current president, they used that anger as well, just as Trump and also imitating
04:36those logics that Trump was also driving from. And they had that same sentiment of,
04:43let's restore things like the way they were. They like the way they were before, before cultural
04:49changes, before progressive movements. Many people have seen this as a sort of reactionary movement.
04:57And of course, it might be true that there are some aspects of that. Maybe we could get deeper and
05:02think that there are also like other parts to understand that sentiment. But definitely,
05:08there's a fiber there that both Trump is using that to get a lot of support. And it's Latin American
05:17epilogues or the leaders that are following that lead are also using. And also, this is true for the
05:27Trump followers, the Latino Trump followers that made up a significant portion of his electoral win in 2024.
05:36So that Trump calling for those traditional values to come back and betting on that conservativism
05:47to fueling that anger and presenting that tradition as a possible solution was very well received by a
05:57sector of the Latino population, specifically young men as well linked to this traditional aspect.
06:06That connected very well with that. So you can see that in Latin America, but you also need to think
06:11about Latinos in the U.S. because it's like one tradition. Yes, you mentioned exactly last year,
06:17the electoral win of Donald Trump was largely due to the swaying, the very great sway of Latino votes,
06:27especially the young men. I wonder how they might feel because Trump is actually going after them,
06:33the so-called illegal immigration in the U.S., cracking down hard on them. I wonder their support will go
06:42away, if anything. But this is a contradiction right there, because Trump actually went into the White
06:51House based on two promises. And one of them is to secure a border. And the other one is to end the
06:56forever war, right? So to secure a border, they have a very white nationalist understanding of the
07:04country. So it's a reimagining of U.S. I wonder, facing with this reality, what kind of political
07:11rhetoric they might come up with to persuade votes? And how will these people feel when they feel
07:20betrayed by those politicians who promised you, okay, we'll be good, okay, restore the traditional
07:25values. But in the end, you are not recognized as part of the population. I wonder how they feel.
07:30I wonder how they feel. And also the rest of Latin America, who are not part of the U.S. population.
07:35If Trump deports those people to the respective countries of origin, would you be welcoming them
07:42back? Or what kind of attitude do you have for those people? You were talking, these are all like
07:47contradicting topics. And that's exactly right. Let's think about Trump campaigning in 2024. He was
07:53campaigning on closing the border, but he was also campaigning to obtain that Latino vote,
08:00that was set to define the race. And that was happening at the same time. So definitely this
08:06is a contradiction from the beginning. Trump is hitting six months of his second term right now.
08:14And some of these sentiment polls that are trying to evaluate how do these people feel right now,
08:20they voted for Trump. But now, in many cases, they are worried that they, even being U.S. citizens,
08:29regular U.S. citizens right now, even having been able to vote, they have fears of their families
08:34being broken apart or they themselves being arrested because you have a lot of irregular
08:39denunciations. Polls are picking up that even Latino population with papers, so to say, so registered as
08:48U.S. citizens at the moment, even they are becoming afraid of being targeted by this anti-immigration
08:57policies. And of course, the stigmatization and the discrimination that this is launching on the
09:03entire country. So definitely this is playing a role. And it's actually the question when we see all the
09:10major protests that are going on right now. The anti-immigration protests that started in L.A.
09:18that are being called the No Kings protests, but extended to over 2,000 cities. So over 2,000 cities
09:26are having wide demonstrations. Experts are calculating this on four to six million people that protested on
09:35one single day. And these are primarily Latino led, at least in Los Angeles, which is one of the
09:41districts with the highest amount of Latino population. They are driving these mobilizations.
09:47And polls suggest that many of those or some of those should have or statistically must have voted for
09:55Trump. So that shift is happening at this moment. And it's really a matter of, as you were saying,
10:02how will that contradiction go? Where is that going in terms of the next elections? What will prevail?
10:10You were saying it before, the numbers and the data suggest that those people were voting Trump
10:18based on economic worries. They wanted lower inflation and they wanted secure jobs and they
10:24weren't prioritizing as much the possibility of being targeted by anti-immigration politics.
10:31Or in the most cases, they didn't think they would be the targets. But now sometimes they are.
10:38So what will happen with that? What sentiment will prevail? That's like the big question.
10:43Yeah. And I think, talking about sentiments, because you mentioned, okay, people who are
10:52attracted by the stories of traditional household or patriarchy or whatever, those traditional values,
10:59and those white voters who are disillusioned with the way Western culture or American culture has been
11:08degenerated by the so-called cultural Marxism or so-called woke progressivism. Both sides really focus on,
11:16you know, abstract concepts, ideologies and stories instead of real economic foundation of the society.
11:28And to be fair, I think America really need Latin American immigrants. If you look at the
11:38braceral program of Mexico in the 50s and 40s, the Mexicans, they made up a bulk of the labor force of the American agricultural industry.
11:49And America really need those people working in America. And also, when you look at the way the global economy is structured,
12:00we were in the same cycle, almost the same cycle, because we are interconnected. So when the American economy is booming, everybody is booming. When it's in a recession, then global recession will come. So you see fluctuations in Latin America.
12:16I mean, the thing I want to ask you is, how do people really see America as, do they see it as a land of opportunity for them to get higher paying jobs? Do they really want to immigrate to America?
12:28Can a local economy of respective Latin American countries, are they vibrant enough to provide enough
12:34opportunities and upward social mobility for young people, especially? If that's the case, then probably they can stay.
12:42If that's not the case, then they will have to go to America and then supply and demand.
12:47America will eventually face the problem of so-called immigration.
12:51Of course. And what you're stating is basically the conflict from the center and the global south.
13:03Just in the American continent, you have the way the model is being played at the moment with
13:12the US hegemonizing the whole of the commercial power, at least in relationship with this hemisphere,
13:24with its imperialistic relationship with this Latin American and Caribbean region.
13:31This puts the region in that predicament every time.
13:36If the only horizon is to triumph in their own logic, then that logic in itself imposes migration.
13:46And it's not only happening between the US and Latin America, you could say that similar things,
13:53although these comparisons always need a lot of, but similar things happen between Europe and Africa, for example.
14:01So this flows of migration that are rejected by the central powers, but at the same time imposed
14:08by the own logic that they are like constituting in the region.
14:13So, of course, like, could the region itself, could Latin America be good enough on its own?
14:20Could it be vibrant enough for its own population, its own desires, its own wishes?
14:26Well, definitely, there are a lot of experts saying that if regional integration could take place,
14:34if a lot of the demands and needs could be met through cooperation between these countries that are very rich,
14:42for example, it's one of the areas with the highest amount of natural resources.
14:48That's why it's such a disputed area at this moment.
14:51So if all of those resources, human-wise and natural resources, could go to those own states and its own developments, then probably yes.
15:00But the world state at this moment is imposing this constant flow of dependency,
15:08and that is exactly what central powers are generating.
15:13So basically, that is a great dispute, and that is something of what is playing along.
15:19And it's always like a great internal contradiction.
15:23You're generating that problem that then you are rejecting as you're coming to invade our country.
15:31It's not no one's coming to invade the country. It's just how the flows of migration and the capital itself is dictating that people need to move.
15:40A very frequent talk point of Trump is that there's this globalist, capitalist class outsourcing jobs to the developing world.
15:49And so Trump claims that he wants to end that. Do you do Latin American people really think that he's going to end that?
15:59And how does they see the so-called economic nationalism?
16:02Do they see the American economic nationalism as benefiting the Latin America or not benefiting Latin America?
16:09I think one of the things that we need to keep in mind in that sense is that when Trump says America first,
16:19and of course, any Latin American and or Central American or Caribbean citizen will say,
16:25first of all, we're all Americans. And that's why we say U.S. in any case.
16:30But when Trump says America first, that in the same movement, he will need higher pressure and higher
16:40discipline on Latin America to make that America first move. They need more pressure on what they consider
16:49to be their backyard. So that move of America first means more discipline, more pressure, higher
17:00sanctions, for example, like more different measures to emphasize and to enforce that dominance on
17:09that region, because you need that region to work only for you. So basically all analysts were signaling
17:19at that first period of Trump, he wasn't dealing as frequently with Latin America. It wasn't as much in
17:29in his discourses. He didn't even pay one official visit to any state in the region. He just participated
17:37at one of the America summits. But aside from that, he didn't visit officially any country. The first visit
17:47of the U.S. Secretary of State when they came to power, this case was to the Panama Canal. To unleash all that question,
17:56and then I'll ask you about that. But to unleash all this thing about the Panama Canal and denouncing
18:04China's intervention or China's role there. So basically, the first thing they do is go to a very
18:12significant and important key spot of the Latin American region and say, we're here and we're here to claim our
18:22dominance over this territory. And also, it's Marco Rubio doing this. The whole nomination of Marco Rubio,
18:29a son of Cubans who has done his whole political career basically enforcing the idea that the U.S. needs to
18:37dominate over this region and that any form of alternative government such as Cuba, for example, or Venezuela
18:45like basically cannot exist, that is the person they're nominating to handle the whole international
18:51agenda. So basically, that is playing a role, definitely. But I wanted to ask you, how are you
18:58seeing it from over there? How are these topics playing? Because I understand that a force from China
19:04not having, it has a completely different relationship with the U.S., a relationship that does not have to do
19:12with that dependency, even geographically dependency, but a completely different way of engaging with
19:21the country, with this nation. So how are citizens perceiving this new Trump administration?
19:28I think for civilizational states like China, we have an inherent logic to look at
19:36cultures from outside and figures from outside. When you look at the founding of the United States,
19:44you have a bunch of religious fundamentalists, the Puritans, who see themselves as prosecuted
19:51by the Anglican church and the English crown. They flew to America to establish a so-called
19:59the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. So there is a very strong religious conviction over there, when they
20:07transformed the religious conviction into liberal democracy. And then you later on, as America's
20:14comprehensive national power grew, America become increasingly assertive. And there's this bunch of
20:23guys who are really Trotskyist, but then they abandoned the socialist faith or the communist faith and
20:33they started to develop this new conservatism. And these people, they are called new cons, but what do they
20:42want to conserve? They want to conserve liberalism. So in that sense, they are like a messianic tradition.
20:52They want to convert people through political violence or military violence. So they want to fight wars to
20:59convert people into exactly liberal democracies like America. And that is where Chinese people have a very
21:08big issue against. So we want to, we're sort of like isolationist Chinese people. Because if you look at the
21:16geography of China, you look at, to the north it's a desert, to the west it's Himalayans, and to the south it's
21:21dense jungle, to the east it's sea. So we have already reached our geographic boundary. So the Chinese
21:28nation is self-contained. So we don't want to go out and invade people. We see that cost severely
21:35outweighs the benefits, the potential benefits. So we don't want to do that. But then if you look at
21:41an outsider, a Western civilization, the people who claim that their political model, their philosophy is
21:47somehow superior to yours, and they want to convert you to their belief system. And you have a very big
21:53issue with that. So the Chinese people, they generally have an issue with liberalism, especially
22:01the new con variant, where they want to lecture everybody how to run your government. We have
22:07an issue with that. But then since the reform and opening up till probably 2010, in that 30, 40 years
22:16period, because China started from a very humble position, China's comprehensive national strength
22:22was not really up there. Our economy wasn't better than an average African country. So the Chinese
22:31people look at America, they look at the West and Europe, they see, okay, so their system performed so
22:37well, they are like so ahead of us, probably there's something we should learn from them. So some people
22:43sort of did this converting their faith to the liberal idea, the capitalist idea. So they're saying, okay,
22:54America, their system is inherently better than the Chinese traditional system or the socialist communist
23:03system. So it's their belief. But as China grows, as its comprehensive national power in science,
23:12technology, military, education, you name it, economic, of course, as it grows, then Chinese people become
23:20more confident, they start to see, okay, so we're not so bad. After all, we can, we can, you know,
23:27beat them in our own game, we can do good. Then they started to reflect upon the previous generation's
23:35lack of confidence. Then they see they really have a problem with what they call the West. When Trump
23:43himself had a problem with so-called deep state, globalist idea, the so-called international,
23:51liberal international order, he is not a fan of that. Trump is not a ideological person, he's not a dogmatic
23:58person, he say he has a art of deal, he's transactional, then he calls him a pragmatist.
24:07It's the Chinese people familiarity with this kind of guy. If he's a Machiavellian, then so be it. If he
24:14wants to self-benefit, so be it. We're not against that ideologically, we're not against that in our
24:20value. So you can take some win, we can take some win, so we can coexist. That's basically how Chinese
24:29people really see Trump. But the thing is, it's getting interesting nowadays. Like I mentioned,
24:37the two things came into office. One is secure border, remake America, and two is also to remake
24:44America, but from an external point of view, to retreat, basically, to retreat from the over-expanded
24:53global empire into, you mentioned, taking Greenland and Panama Canal and, what they say, Canada to be
25:01the 51st state, which is to consolidate regional power in America, North America, and probably South
25:10America as well. So his project, I think, from what I personally read of Trump, is that he abandons
25:17this global empire project in favor of a militarist, sometimes fascist, potentially fascist state.
25:26But that state is retreating from the world, but expanding or consolidating regionally in Latin America,
25:36in North America, especially North America. And I think that's probably the inherent danger of a Latin
25:43America region. That's just my reading. I don't know whether you agree.
25:48Definitely, they're bidding on a shift of some kind, without losing that world power. So again,
25:57it is a bit contradicting how they will handle or how even Trump, in his own discourse, is trying to say,
26:04okay, America first, but let us still order the whole world at the same time.
26:11So it's definitely interesting what you were saying of how, from a perspective from China,
26:18that could be resonating with other moments in history and what that meant. What I was wondering
26:25is definitely the perceptions and the way that the US, and particularly Trump, is antagonizing with
26:36the Latino community and in terms of migration, in terms of the entire region, has like one way of
26:43being. But China is present in their discourse as well, as a very antagonizing power. And that shapes a big
26:54portion of what they do, what they say, how they present themselves, what decision they make.
27:00I was mentioning before the question with the Panama Canal and how they were coming to Latin America,
27:08but they were coming here to present a dispute with China. So how is that being perceived?
27:16You hear Marco Rubio and Trump saying, okay, we're in a multi-polar world. What they mean is that America,
27:26whole America, probably North America, South America, is one pole, is his pole, their pole.
27:32And their pole, yes. And you see great powers like, I won't name who, but there are other great powers
27:41viewing their origins as their pole, okay? But to the Chinese people who are self-contained and,
27:50you know, isolationist people, okay, we have our pole. We are happy with ourselves. But if you come to us,
28:00if you want to fight a war in our doorsteps, so be it. I mean, there are many war games simulated by the
28:08Pentagon, like dozens of war games they simulated over the Taiwan Strait, and most of the cases they
28:16lost. Well, maybe that's the way for the Pentagon to ask for more military budget. We don't know,
28:23but the Chinese people, they are confident in that sense. They are more familiar with the kind of
28:30worldview, rather than this hardened, regional, hegemonic view, rather than that kind of soft,
28:40you know, liberal market economy, that kind of very soft, manipulating, globalist empire.
28:49In China, there is a saying that you have to go to the scripts of biblical scriptures to debate with
28:58them. So that's a dogmatic belief. That's a debate over dogmatic belief. And China, we don't have that
29:06tradition. We suck at debates. But when you see a great power that creeps to your door and want to
29:16carve up a part of you, only when we are weak, we are afraid. In Qing dynasty, yeah, the Chinese central
29:24government was really afraid of the Western powers like Britain and France and America and Japan and
29:29Russia. So there was this time. But nowadays, I mean, Chinese people see it as virtually impossible
29:36for the America to really severely damage the national interest of China. So we are okay with that.
29:41Healthy competition between nations. So long as it's healthy.
29:48Now, precisely pointing, you were saying like, we're at a good point to compete, right? You were
29:55even mentioning something like there are areas in which you're on par with the US and probably even
30:03going beyond some technological developments. And I gather from what you were saying that this sort of
30:10leaks into the popular sentiment of confidence at a moment in time, like right now. How does
30:18that play with what you were mentioning before of some parts of the population having sort of like
30:25the Western aspiration looking at the West and sort of having is that is that still going on? Is that
30:34simultaneous? Do you see this happening at different sectors of society? Or is this from another time?
30:42How does that happen? Like in the same moment? That's a very good question. Because we had a global empire,
30:50we endured a global empire and a global empire, like I mentioned, is a soft empire. It rules through
30:57economy. It rules through higher education. It rules through indoctrination of belief systems. So of course,
31:04there's this older generation of Chinese, when the the national power of China wasn't strong enough,
31:10they look up to everything the West embodies and where the West tells them what is what it means to
31:16be Western, what is the Western value. So they look up to those values. And those very people are right now
31:24in very important positions of many significant institutions. So these people, those values emanated
31:33from those institutions closely resembled Western values. And this younger generation of Chinese who
31:41are more confident, assertive, whatever, they are not in positions of power, but they are growing
31:51increasingly loud, especially on the internet. And these people are sort of like a generational,
31:58generational, I would say generational conflict. Okay. So there's this element of generational conflict
32:04in China. I believe it's, it's the same in many countries in the US too, when you have the millennials
32:12and Gen Z versus the boomers, the boomer generation, there's this value conflict as well. So that's been
32:19playing out most of industrialized world. And China is no exception to that.
32:24So how would you say that younger sector, that sector that's grown in a more confident or more powerful China,
32:36how are they looking at Trump? Because I just putting in some perspective here in the in Latin America, most of this new
32:46these new right wing sectors that are fueling from that return to traditionalism are in many cases, the younger generations. And that has to do with an inability, because of course, we're coming from very, very different geopolitically regions, inability of the region of presenting
33:14a powerful horizon, a powerful horizon for that generation, because external conditions and everything. So that younger generations are the ones in many cases, looking at this Trump followers and going to having a reactionary movement back to conservatism and back and against any progressive wins in terms of rights that have happened in the region.
33:42And this is very much linked to harder economic years. So that young generation is thriving on that hardship and is fueling that new right wing sectors. Of course, they're also leftist young generations. Of course, you have more vibrant nations with a very strong popular movement and ongoing left revolutions that have their own
34:11dynamic. But in some sectors. But in some sectors where the right has thrived, that young generation has been fueling that increase, that growth. So how does that young generation in China that grew up with this more powerful China, how are they looking at Trump?
34:29When you look at Chinese social media, how are they looking at Trump?
34:30When you look at Chinese social media, you see some accounts copying content from the right wing talking points. You see the right wing podcasters talking to Chinese audience. And those accounts are really some of them are masked as English learning, English language learning channels.
34:51And people go to these channels and listen to those right wing talks. People love those talks. And if you look at progressive, progressive, OK, what they call more woke or DEI stuff.
35:07Of course, we could have a whole episode on those terms as well. OK, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And people just don't like those stuff. And that, I think, has got to do with, like you mentioned, industrial society and the emancipation of women into the workforce.
35:28And that creates anxiety. And of course, this capitalism is actually sucking out air space from young generation, young men who can't afford to live like their daddy's generation.
35:44That problem is especially evident in the US, not so evident in China, because China has been rising so fast during the last generation.
35:53But China is actually the young people are experiencing this economic squeeze.
35:59So when they experience that squeeze, they also will look to other sources to confirm their identity.
36:08So they look to traditional sources that look to conservative sources to basically to pat on their shoulder and say, OK, you're doing great.
36:18You're a man. Keep on doing what you're doing. And girls will like you.
36:21And people love that. Who wouldn't love that? But I think there is this very subtle difference between China and probably elsewhere in the world is that those people in many countries, they look up to Trump.
36:35They see, OK, so MAGA movement is actually saving America and probably MAGA movement will spill over to my region, my country and this conservative government will save us.
36:48So we'll be great again. So make whatever great again.
36:52Great again. But in China, in China, although we say make the great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation is make China great again.
37:01And even go back, going back to the fall of the Qing empire, it's also make China great again, make China China again.
37:09So China has always been great. So the Chinese people are really proud people.
37:13They take extreme pride in in their own identity.
37:18So make China great again is like when Sun Zhongshan said,
37:22actually make China China again.
37:25So make China China again in itself is to make China great again.
37:29So China has this tremendous pride in ourselves.
37:34And when China's national power grows, China's so confident, this young generation is so confident that they don't see Trump as a role model.
37:45They should imitate or we should look up to Trump.
37:49No, no, no, that Trump is one of us.
37:52Trump is actually following us.
37:55So they see the playbook of the US economic nationalists.
38:00They say, OK, you want to copy the Chinese industrial policy.
38:04You want to copy this playbook from China and you you're increasingly like China.
38:11So China in some areas is actually our government system is actually ahead of you.
38:18The US wants to be like China basically to compete with other great powers.
38:25So that's why the Chinese people, especially younger generation, they look at Trump.
38:29They laugh at him, but not in a bad way.
38:33I mean, they laugh at him and they like him almost like a clownish person, but also a relatable person.
38:41So they have many nicknames for Trump.
38:45They say that he wears this red tie, right, the very long red tie.
38:49They say it's a red scarf for the young pioneers of the Communist Party.
38:52So they look at Trump like he's one of us, not something, an outsider that we should emulate.
39:00So it's not a shiny city upon the hill, not anymore.
39:04So in that sense, yeah, the younger generation is like that in China.
39:08What do you think is the sentiment going forward?
39:11Like what expectations are there?
39:14Does it change the perspective from what could happen in terms of how can the US affect the coming years in terms of how will directly affect China's citizens?
39:26Is there a question regarding that?
39:28Because, of course, in Latin America, that's a permanent question.
39:31But is there a question regarding are there assumptions in that regard?
39:35Yes, from where I come from, I see myself as a socialist.
39:41I see myself as from the left.
39:44So, of course, I'm very uneasy with the way Trump reimagines America.
39:50Not only Trump, but his allies, especially his high tech allies, where you have this new reactionary group of people who wants to get rid of the masses, get rid of people only to preserve the capitalism itself.
40:11Probably AI dictated capitalism.
40:14So it's only to preserve the brain, get rid of the body.
40:18And that seems very dangerous to me because socialism is all about the body, right?
40:25All about equality, people, right?
40:27It's the people deciding how the economy should run.
40:31And that is what I see the greatest danger of Trump and his allies, this new reactionary right.
40:39And I think China is not paying enough attention to that area because a lot of Chinese people, especially young people, they look up to figures like Elon Musk.
40:49They look up to figures like Peter Thiel.
40:51When I read of stuff of Curtis Yarvin, they say, OK, it's Machiavellian.
40:58It's totally about concentrating power.
41:01When they read about that, they're OK with that.
41:04And I think that's the danger lies.
41:08Because when the society is run by algorithm, if society is run by monopolistic tech or monopolistic capital, I think that is the great danger.
41:20And our only hope is that the Chinese state, where the political power resides, will guard against those dangers and protect our citizens from those dangers.
41:34But I think we need to really talk about this more often on Chinese media.
41:40It is. And it's also interesting to compare and contrast because we are looking at the same thing, but from not only far apart in terms of geographically, but from different positions politically.
41:55And how that affects that person, that young man looking at that algorithm, that family that hopes to have like a better future for their children.
42:06And where will that better future come from?
42:09And how is that being conditioned by this broader, wider things?
42:14So the possibility of exchanging those perspectives gives us, I think, a little bit more light on what we're doing and what we are seeing closer to us.
42:26Yes, it's very interesting. We should continue this conversation sometime in the future.
42:30Definitely going to be very enriching for both of us, both our sides, both our audiences.
42:35Definitely will do. It's been such a pleasure, Chris.
42:38It's been a great conversation. And of course, we're here to continue talking.
42:42Yeah. Yeah. I'll see you next time.
42:44See you next time.
42:45See you next time.
43:08See you next time.
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