00:00Let's get reaction to that summit between China and the EU.
00:04Pascal Lamy is the former European Commissioner for Trade
00:06and a former Director General of the World Trade Organization.
00:10Thank you so much for your time.
00:11We've had a lot of different lines coming out of this summit.
00:14We've heard Ursula von der Leyen describing them as excellent.
00:17President Xi saying, EU, don't blame China for your problems.
00:21But I do think that both sides agree relations are at a critical point.
00:26But how do you see the relationship currently?
00:30Well, it's a large, complex and important relationship.
00:38If we take a snapshot of today's issues between EU and China,
00:48there are basically two areas where we disagree and two areas where we agree.
00:56The two areas where EU and China disagree is, first, Ukraine,
01:04because China is siding with Russia, who is attacking Ukraine,
01:10and we are helping to defend Ukraine for a variety of reasons,
01:16most of them having to do with the fact that countries are sovereign and should not be invaded.
01:26And the second area where we disagree is the Chinese macroeconomic model
01:34with not enough consumption, hence overcapacities, hence overexports as compared to the size of the Chinese market.
01:48So the two areas where we agree is, A, defending multilateralism at a time where the U.S. are trying to break it to their own interest.
02:01And on this, we clearly are on the same side as China to defend a multilateral rules-based order.
02:09And the other areas where we agree is environment, climate, biodiversity, the ocean,
02:19which, on which our view that these have become existential issues for our planet,
02:27we share on both sides and hence a rather large scope for international cooperation.
02:34Right. Both sides have, in the past, appealed to the World Trade Organization to resolve trade disputes.
02:41Is the WTO currently equipped to manage this friction, or are reforms required?
02:49Yes, the WTO remains equipped to deal with disputes between members of the WTO, others than the U.S.
03:02So if this is a new China issue, there is a dispute settlement system which can deal with these disputes and adjudicate them and decide who's right and who's wrong.
03:20Of course, of course, of course, for the moment, the U.S. basically have stepped out of the WTO, not formally, but in reality,
03:32and they have clogged the former, the old dispute settlement system, out of which they were in such fashion that they cannot be found guilty
03:49because the due process cannot go to its terms.
03:53But if it's about EU and China, or EU and many other countries, or China and many other countries,
04:00we have a well-functioning dispute settlement system.
04:05I have to ask you about the competition that is clear between China and the EU, and I think that's probably part of the friction between the two.
04:15But could that perhaps be turned into a strength, cooperation between these two massive markets, rather than competition and friction?
04:23Is there a way to achieve that?
04:25I mean, in a way, yes, there are solutions, and your previous interlocutor was discussing how China can or could produce EVs in the EU
04:44that can be a solution to this unfair competition issue, which for the moment, we Europeans have with China.
04:55If there was an agreement between EU and China to do what China did to EU 30 years ago,
05:05which is roughly welcome on the Chinese market, provided you produce in China, and you transfer the technology needed,
05:18If we could do a deal like this one, the other way around with China today, I think this might go a long way into easing tensions.
05:30China would benefit from the technological leadership it has acquired for the last 15 years,
05:38and EU consumers and workers, provided, of course, these cars are built in Europe, would also benefit from A+.
05:48So there are areas where we can do better.
05:52All right.
05:52Thank you so much for your time today, Pascal Lamy.
05:55He is the former European Commissioner for Trade and also a former Director General at the World Trade Organization.
