In a shocking incident, five armed men shot dead a man, who was a murder convict and out on parole, inside a private hospital in Bihar's Patna on Thursday.
00:01Is Patna the new crime capital, if it ever was not?
00:04116 murders from January to May this year, many of them high profile.
00:09One murder taking place in every 25 hours in Patna.
00:14In an election year, let's raise the question.
00:16Jungle Raj back in Bihar.
00:18The opposition this time has put the BJP, JDU government in the dock.
00:22Is there a free run for gangsters?
00:25Who will fight crime in Bihar?
00:26Is Nithish Kumar losing his claim of being Shushasana Babu?
00:30Guru Prakash Paswan is the BJP spokesperson.
00:33Anshul Abjit of the Congress is joining me for my face-off.
00:37Appreciate both of you joining us.
00:38Guru Prakash Paswan, for years when Lalu Prasad Yadav ruled,
00:42the BJP claimed Jungle Raj in Bihar.
00:44Now when Patna is emerging as a crime capital,
00:47can the JDU BJP government escape responsibility?
00:51No, Rajdeep ji, we must understand that it was not the BJP or the NDA
00:59that said it was a Jungle Raj.
01:01It was the Patna High Court.
01:03After series of misgovernance, crime, caste massacres,
01:08the term was given by Patna High Court.
01:09The BJP, JDU combined used it in every rally for a decade.
01:14For every rally for a decade, you all said Jungle Raj in Bihar.
01:18It may have been first used in the courts,
01:20but that was your political narrative, your political slogan.
01:22No, no, we are not claiming credit for the origin of this term.
01:30And Patna High Court was essentially, it was a judicial process.
01:33The term was an output or a product of deliberation and series of misrule,
01:38series of caste massacres that happened in Bihar.
01:40But having said that, Rajdeep ji, we must accept and definitely,
01:45Mr. Nitish Kumar is identified as someone who has never compromised on crime,
01:49who has never compromised on corruption.
01:50And post-2005, if you look at it comprehensively,
01:54the last two decades have been the peaceful in Bihar.
01:56You see the per capita crime, the murders per lakh population in Bihar
02:00has gone down fundamentally.
02:02The murder average per lakh was 4.1.
02:05Under Nitish Kumar's governance, it's 2.1.
02:07So it's almost halved.
02:08But we accept accountability needs to be fixed.
02:11The incidents that has happened in the course of the last two weeks,
02:14each and every single case, Rajdeep ji,
02:16I can give you the action taken report.
02:19Arrest, encounters, inquiry, investigation,
02:24it is the topmost priority of the NDA government under Mr. Nitish Kumar.
02:28But we also accept that murders like this happening in broad daylight in Patna,
02:32it's highly unfortunate.
02:34But let me assure you and your viewers that it is,
02:37and it always will be on the topmost mind of our leadership,
02:40be it political, administrative, bureaucratic or police.
02:44But we also realize that the person who died, the person who was shot at,
02:48has a criminal antecedent.
02:49He is notorious.
02:50But that doesn't discount.
02:52We are a country with a rule of law.
02:53We are a country with a constitution.
02:55We are a country which believes in giving fair hearing.
02:58But that is something...
03:00These are all fine words.
03:01This person was of notorious criminal record and of criminal antecedents.
03:05Sir, the fact is, and I have to go by data here,
03:07NCRB data for violent crime shows that there were 24,073 cases of violent crime in 2005
03:15when Nitish Kumar took over.
03:16It's now 49,610.
03:20These are the figures of NCRB.
03:22But Anshul Avjit, according to Guru Prakash Paswan,
03:25this is very different from Lalu's Raj.
03:27According to him, Lalu's Raj patronize criminals.
03:30The BJP is acting against them.
03:31Or the BJP, JDU government is acting against them.
03:35There is complete mayhem in Bihar.
03:37I mean, there is hopelessness.
03:39There is despair.
03:40It's not just crime.
03:42It's just not law and order.
03:43There is education, there is health, there is investment, there is joblessness.
03:47Every manner, every denominator, Bihar, you know, it's lowest ever.
03:54And you're talking about 20 years back.
03:56I know the BJP is really interested in rewriting history
04:00and, you know, vilifying historical actors and all.
04:03I just wonder what events that happened 20 years back
04:07had any kind of bearing on what is happening today in the killing fields of Bihar.
04:11I mean, this is the worst stereotype that has come along.
04:14I try, my friends, to tell them and dispel this image of Bihar
04:17as this crumbling sort of crime-infested place.
04:20You know, I'll have to work much, much harder to do that right now.
04:23Because those stereotypes…
04:24This was no different argument that the Jdu BJP makes is that
04:30it's not as if all of this happened only when Nitish Kumar was in power.
04:34You come with all the baggage that Lalu Prasad had in his government.
04:38There were a number of criminals who were made, who were given tickets.
04:42It became the criminalization of politics was taken to another level.
04:46Do you concede that, Anshul Abjit, and therefore perhaps…
04:48No, no, no. But what bearing does it have now?
04:51I don't understand what bearing this has in the current context.
04:55What relevance does it have right now?
04:56We are discussing the current state of Bihar.
04:59The hopelessness, the abject poverty.
05:02I mean, farmers, education, health in every sector.
05:05It's, you know, there's a downward spiral.
05:07You know, ADG, you know, made a very bizarre statement about, you know,
05:12normalizing it some sort of seasonal cycle of crime.
05:16And, you know, even Mr. Lanand Singh, who was a very senior leader, said,
05:19you know, no, ye sab toh hota hai.
05:21My friend, a guru, said that, no, this is on the top of everyone's mind.
05:25I mean, they're completely normalizing it.
05:27Do tell me, if this…
05:30If what happened earlier, indeed, if it did,
05:32waged so heavily in the conscience of the chief minister,
05:35then he joined the gut bandhan twice, right?
05:37What prevented him?
05:38And now why is the BJP supporting him?
05:40That's, you know, that's a good point.
05:42Nitish Kumar joined Lalu Prasad Yadam.
05:44That time there was no Jangal Raj.
05:46Moment he leaves, he would call it Jangal Raj, Guru Prakash Paswan.
05:50Also, the ADGP of Bihar, Kundan Krishnan,
05:54attributes the rising crime rate in the state to monsoon season,
05:57saying most farmers do not have work.
05:59I mean, these are bizarre reasons,
06:00including Jitin Ram Maji saying this happens in private hospitals.
06:05So, I mean, you know, whether it's happening in a private or a government hospital,
06:09if people are going to be engaging in gang wars in the middle of a hospital,
06:13the government has some responsibility, some accountability.
06:16I mean, the Niti and the chief minister is absent, missing in action.
06:20The chief minister is rarely seen, rarely heard.
06:23Where is this Sushasana Babu of yours?
06:25No, no, that's not the case, Rajdeep ji.
06:32The chief minister is on the tour, he is touring Bihar, and it is on his mind.
06:36But let me make this very clear.
06:37And you, in your initial set of observation, used a very nice word,
06:41state patronized and state patronage criminals, only a couple of weeks ago.
06:45And Rajdeep ji, you are a fairly senior journalist.
06:47You would know the monster that Shah Budeen was.
06:50Only a couple of weeks ago, in a RJD convention, in Patna, Shah Budeen ji, Zindabad.
06:56Das Limuddin ji, Zindabad.
06:58Who is Shah Budeen?
06:59Yeah, but they are not in power.
07:00No, no, one minute, one minute, one minute.
07:01Guru Prakash Paswan, that's a good point, but they are not in power.
07:05Today, you are in power.
07:06Mr. Paswan, if the RJD was in power, everything you said makes sense.
07:11Today, they are not in power.
07:12When the BJP and JDU is in power, it's your damn responsibility to get it right.
07:19You do realize the difference between organized crime, state-sponsored crime,
07:24state-protected crime, and unorganized crime.
07:27You do realize the relevance of it.
07:29You do realize that there are land issues in Bihar.
07:31You do realize that the underbelly of Bihar has this major issue of suffering.
07:35But the problem is precisely this.
07:37State-promoted, state-protected, state-patronized crime and criminal network.
07:43Your journalist, Ashok Karan, you would remember, he was kidnapped.
07:46Dinesh Dinkar, he was muttered.
07:48Siwan Durdashian office was attacked.
07:50In Gaya, Hindustan was attacked.
07:51Mr. Gopal was muttered.
07:52Slew of journalists, list of journalists I have.
07:55There are names, Rajdeep, that shakes the conscience even today.
07:59Wife of an IS officer, Champa Biswas.
08:01The Shilpi Jain case.
08:02Miss Patna, a student of Vatna Women's College.
08:04We have to make a distinction.
08:06But having said that, Rajdeep ji, let me make this very clear.
08:09That accountability will be fixed.
08:11Every single action in the last three weeks has been highly unfortunate.
08:15It's highly unfortunate that the police and the administration has taken serious cognizance of it.
08:21Okay.
08:21Anshul Abjit, I'll give you a final word.
08:23Because Guru Prakash Paswan is insisting that this, the violence we are seeing now cannot be compared to what he seems to refer to as state-sponsored violence in the previous regime of which you are an alliance, the RJD Congress Alliance.
08:37Well, it's top to bottom.
08:39I mean, ordinary people are protesting now.
08:42There are teachers who have been killed.
08:44There are doctors who have been killed.
08:45Shopkeepers, business people, convicts in hospitals.
08:48I mean, it's there everywhere.
08:49And the fact that the senior police official made such bizarre remarks was either because he's completely abdicating responsibility, because he can't do anything about it, because they've been over 12, according to one report, Rajdeep, staggering, I almost fell off the chair, 1,200 attacks against the police force.
09:08Two ASIs were actually killed in Oli.
09:10So the police force cannot protect itself.
09:13And now the public naturally has no choice but to lose faith in the police force itself.
09:17And the police is directly controlled by the executive.
09:21There is absolutely no doubt about it.
09:23There is complete lawlessness.
09:25There is a social context to this as well.
09:27Rajdeep, one last point.
09:28There is a social context to this.
09:30When there is mass joblessness, when there is despair and there is hopelessness, crime does come.
09:37Bihar needs to be fixed and can't be, remain this broken state.
09:40You know, the worst thing, of course, is all of this is happening in an election year, in a sense, because then the political rhetoric takes over.
09:47But either way, as a friend just seeing the program has told me, watching those scenes in a Patna hospital, he's reminded of the Godfather.
09:55And worse, these seem to be the killing fields of Patna.
09:58And this is not what any city, any part of the country wants to see.
10:03Guru Prakash Paswan, Anshul Abjit for joining me on my face-off.
