Sustainability for the Rest of Us: Greenwashing, Elitism & Radical Climate Action w/ John Pabon | S02E11 - video Dailymotion

Tangelic Life

🌍 Is sustainability just a buzzword—or a broken system in need of radical honesty? In this must-watch episode of Tangelic Talks, co-hosts Victoria Cornelio and Jensen Cummings speak with John Pabon, sustainability strategist, author of The Great Greenwashing, and founder of Fulcrum Strategic Advisors.  Together, they unpack the harsh truths behind corporate sustainability, the rise of greenwashing and greenhushing, and how strategic, human-centered action can reboot the climate movement for everyone—not just the elite.  📚 Whether you're a sustainability consultant, conscious consumer, or climate advocate, this episode is packed with insights on how to spot fake eco-marketing, communicate real impact, and create genuine climate progress.  🎙️ Key Topics Covered: - Why 75% of sustainability messaging is misleading - Greenwashing vs. greenhushing: PR tricks exposed - The myth of “perfect sustainability” - Radical transparency & why most ESG reports fall short - Brands that are doing it wrong—and a few getting it right - The real meaning of human-centered climate action  📌 Timestamps: 00:00–01:11 Why Sustainability Comms Are Failing – And How to Fix It 01:12–02:55 Meet John Pabon: Consultant, Author, No-BS Sustainability Strategist 02:56–04:54 What Even Is Sustainability? Let’s Get Real About Definitions 04:55–08:32 The Sustainability Monolith: Why Activist Optics Might Be Hurting the Movement 08:33–11:45 You Can Do Anything, But Not Everything: Fighting Burnout in the Climate Fight 11:46–14:35 Sustainability in Business: Why Most Companies Get It Wrong 14:36–17:13 Greenwashing vs. Good Intentions: Where Do We Draw the Line? 17:14–20:49 Can TikTok Save the Planet? Influencers, Integrity & Public Pressure 20:50–23:40 Spend Like It Matters: Why Your Wallet Is a Weapon for Change 23:41–26:32 Can We Trust the Message or the Messenger? Semiotics, Green Frogs & Vibes 26:33–29:11 Cool Uncle Theory: Why We Need Better Messengers for Sustainability 29:12–31:09 Final Thoughts: Fighting the Good Fight, One Conversation at a Time 31:10–32:19 Closing: Simulation Glitches, Squid Game, and a Little Hope  🔗 Watch More & Stay Connected: 🌐 Website: https://TangelicLife.org 🎧 Podcast Hub: https://tangeliclife.org/tangelic-talks-podcast/ 📽️ YouTube Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/@tangeliclife/podcasts 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tangeliclife/ 🐦 Twitter/X: https://x.com/Tangelic_ 💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/tangelic/ 👍 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tangelic.org  💬 Join the Conversation: What frustrates you most about modern sustainability marketing? Have you ever caught a brand greenwashing? Share your story below 👇  ✅ Don’t forget to like 👍, comment 💬, and subscribe 🔔 for more episodes on climate, equity, and energy access. Your support fuels real conversations that drive change. TangelicLife.org 🌱  🔖 #TangelicTalks #GreenwashingExposed #SustainabilityForAll #ClimateCommunication #GreenMarketing #ESGExposed

Transcript

00:00We've been really bad at the marketing and communications. I mean, who wants to go to

00:03another academic or scientific talk about sustainability? And on the other side of the

00:07spectrum, who wants to be scared shitless at the world's ending? I don't want that either. I mean,

00:11yes, both things exist, but you know, let's exist somewhere in the middle. We're doing this for

00:16future generations. We're the future generation that we're talking about. It's us. We're frogs

00:22in a boiling pot, and we've forgotten that, you know, we're here now. You choose to put your

00:28energy where you know it's going to go somewhere. And I think that's really important to not burn

00:33out. So thank you for that.

00:35Certainly, creating a warm and engaging mechanism for your podcast. Consider green. Tell me as a

00:41suggestion that combines an upbeat and abiding spirit of energy and grow music. Welcome to

00:46Tangelic Talks, your go-to podcast from Tangelic, where we dive into the vibrant world of clean energy

00:52development, sustainability, and climate change in Africa. We bring you inspiring stories,

00:58insightful discussions, and groundbreaking innovations from the continent-making waves

01:02in the global community. Tune in and join the conversation toward a brighter, greener future.

01:08Let's get started.

01:12Welcome to Tangelic Talks, a podcast at the intersection of energy, equity, and empowerment

01:17with your co-host, Victoria Cornelio, and myself, Jensen Cummings. In today's episode, we talk

01:22why everything you think is sustainable isn't. With John Pabone. John is a sustainability author,

01:29consultant, and content creator, and the founder of Fulcrum Strategic Advisors. John is also the

01:34author of Sustainability for the Rest of Us, Your No Bullshit Five-Point Plan for Saving the Planet,

01:40the Great Greenwashing, How Brands, Governments, and Influencers Are Lying to You. John, thanks for

01:48being with us. You're welcome. No, thank you so much for having me. Thanks. All right, so

01:52kind of leaned into over-sensationalizing the title of this episode, as your books also have kind of

02:00leaned into that. So I felt empowered to do so, but also kind of, it's a little bit of eco-theater,

02:07which is part of what you're calling out as well. So maybe I was clickbaiting a little bit there,

02:12but I want to start from a place of like, hey, let's be a little audacious. We have to kind of

02:16shake people loose of their foundations, their preconceived notions, their expectations, or they're

02:21just accepting what they're being fed quite often. So am I overstating that? Is everything we know about

02:28sustainability? No. It isn't? Where are we at? Give us a little bit of a temperature take here.

02:33Yeah. No, I think first on the sensationalization of things and the clickbaity thing, I think we need

02:39to do more of that because we've been really bad at the marketing and communications. I mean,

02:42who wants to go to another academic or scientific talk about sustainability? And on the other side

02:47of the spectrum, who wants to be scared shitless at the world's ending? I don't want that either. I mean,

02:51yes, both things exist, but let's exist somewhere in the middle where we can actually not reach.

02:58My big thing is we shouldn't be going after the 1% that already know they should be doing something

03:02and are doing something. It's the 99% of people who don't want to do anything, haven't been convinced

03:07yet, and are sort of scared to get started. Those are the ones we need to be talking to. So

03:11speak in their language, I think is absolutely where we need to go to. Now, is everything messed

03:16up? Is it all a big lie? No, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding. I think 75% of what people

03:22think they understand about sustainability, and we can even talk about what that term means,

03:26is a misunderstanding or a confusion. And we should own that as sustainability professionals

03:32of doing a bad job and not communicating it better. So at the end of the day, again,

03:35it comes back to the communications and how we've not been the best at the marketing side of things.

03:41Yeah. Thank you. Everything you just said was very refreshing to hear.

03:45I really appreciate that. We need to speak

03:48a language that our audience also speaks. We talked about this even before we started recording,

03:55said it on the show. Victoria and I talk about it all the time. This podcast has to be human

04:00conversation. I can't go through another podcast or a webinar or something that's just somebody

04:04reading a white paper or a bunch of slides. I'm bored to tears and everybody else is. And I'm

04:10professionally in the space and I'm tuned out. So what do you think about the average person?

04:15They have no interest. They are completely glazed over. And honestly, it starts creating resentment

04:20and you're pushing versus pulling them in. So I appreciate that. All right, Victoria, get us back on track.

04:27What do we need to talk about? Sustainability? Do we need to have John give us a little definition

04:31or where do you think we need to go from here? With words like sustainability, you know,

04:35if we're going to take them literally, they literally just mean doing something for a long time.

04:39So if we're going to take it at face value, let's do that. But I'm more interested in what

04:43you said about communications and the communication problem. Just how I explain sustainability right now,

04:50should I have been more clear? Was there a better way to do that? The language that we're using,

04:55do we need to make more examples? Do we need more stories? How do we better communicate that?

05:00Because I say it as someone in the space where I'm like, well, duh, that's what it is. But how do

05:04we get there? How do we bring in people that are maybe not as clued in?

05:08Yeah, I think it's and I don't want to be sort of to exaggerate the point, but I think it might be a

05:14little dangerous not to define things because then people are going to gladly enter the conversation,

05:20but you're all going to be speaking about slightly different things. And that's much more concerning

05:25than very different things, right? Because the different interpretation. So you're spot on,

05:29though, with the sustainability understanding of things for the long term. I think if we're

05:33speaking to an audience of professionals or people in the space, that's easy. We all sort of know.

05:39But if you were to go to the street and ask five people to define sustainability, you're going to

05:42get 100 different understandings of what you're talking about. And for most of us, I think,

05:47at least in the space, we understand sustainability is more than hugging the trees and saving the polar

05:52bears. It's a catch all term for anything that does lead to that long term social and environmental

05:58and planetary impact. But for the layperson, they're going to hear sustainability and automatically think,

06:03oh, environment. And yeah, that's a part of it. It gets the most, you know, the lion's share of the

06:07PR, but that's such a small portion. And the reason I emphasize that being a small portion is

06:12if you're a person and you want to do something and maybe you don't care about the

06:17environment, I'm not an environmental scientist. There's plenty of people that are doing that.

06:20Honestly, I don't care about the environment. I'm speaking personally as me. It's fine. I know

06:25there's people handling that. I care more about the people side of sustainability. But if I'm a

06:29layperson and I don't even know that relates to sustainability, then I'm going to think, well,

06:33there's nothing I can do. Forget it. So I think the more we sort of extrapolate out what this means

06:38and how it is so broad, people can say, hey, I'm passionate about that. Hey, I have a skill

06:43on that. I can do something about that. Let me join in the fight instead of sitting on the sideline.

06:47So they've found their reason in. So I think that's why these definitions at the base level

06:52of what we're talking about, especially for lay people. I've used that so much in the last two

06:56minutes and I feel terrible saying that. But, you know, it's true. People that don't quite know

07:00exactly what we're talking about, just to explain it for them. But, you know, those of us that are all

07:03friends and have been in this fight for a very long time, I think we can be a little more

07:07forgiving with having to do definitions and whatnot. Let me think about this from this

07:13perspective. Have we just turned sustainability into a monolith and it's not? And maybe more

07:20over and maybe more importantly, have we turned the audience into a monolith that either you're

07:25in or you're out, that there's no gray area, that there's no gradient where we can come in,

07:31where we need access points, right? We need entry points. We need an on-ramp for some of that. So

07:39how are you starting some of those types of conversations? It's the monolith example. I

07:45think the illusion is so spot on. I don't think it's the monolith of sustainability as a concept. I

07:52think it's the monolith of who we have representing us to the world, the poster children of sustainability.

07:58And if you think about the traditional poster child of the sustainability movement, it's the

08:02greenie, the hippie, the Greenpeace person hanging off the side of a whaling ship doing very extreme

08:06things. It's extinction rebellion. It's just stop oil. These are the ones that get obviously the lion's

08:11share of the PR and the news traction, right? Because they're front and center and they're very

08:16loud. And that's fine. We need that. Is it still fit for purpose today? We needed that at the start of

08:21the movement back in the 1960s where nobody was paying attention. But I would argue that today

08:25people are paying attention. You can't get away from issues around sustainability, the environment

08:29and society. The issue now is, as you mentioned, what's the on-ramp, right? How do we get people

08:34involved? It's no longer, if we use marketing terms, it's no longer about driving impressions,

08:38getting eyeballs on things. We have that. It's converting people. It's getting people to do

08:43something. So the more extreme we take the examples of, hey, this is sustainability. These are our

08:49poster children. The less likely you're going to have the majority of people who are having a hard

08:53enough time just getting off their couch to think that they can get involved. So the monolith

08:57is how we represent ourselves. So I think we need to do a much better job of presenting. And as we're

09:03framing this today from the human perspective and showing that the three of us, we look like pretty

09:07normal human beings, right? Like I showered this morning. You all probably, I don't know,

09:12sort of normal. You all probably showered. You're not hanging off the side of a wailing ship,

09:16more power to the people that do. But the majority of people in the fight, the struggle to build a

09:20better future. Yeah. We're just like everybody else.

09:24No. And I'm a big believer in that human approach because I've always said, we saw it during COVID

09:30when we were all inside of the earth started flourishing again, right? So a lot of times

09:35when we talk about sustainability and the climate crisis as a whole, we're basically talking about,

09:40oh, we're going to be uncomfortable. The earth is probably going to be okay as it has been for,

09:45you know, forever, but we're probably going to be really uncomfortable.

09:49And I think a lot of the things that you're talking about also tie into social justice and

09:53consumer rights, because if a consumer is better informed, then they can, you know, join the fight

09:58in an easier entry point. But then you're asking someone who is dealing with all these things

10:03from, you know, the social systems that we live in to go out of their way and buy produce that was

10:10made in the garden of their neighbor, the blah, blah, blah, you know, like all this stuff.

10:14So how do we make it easier? How do we talk to a consumer that is going through all these struggles

10:21at the same time of having to worry about the world burning?

10:25Yeah, I didn't come up with this, so I can't take credit for it. But it's something I've really

10:29tried to implement as much as possible in my thinking and the way I approach things is that

10:33you can do anything, but you can't do everything. I'll say it again, you can do anything, but you can't

10:39do everything, right? We're armies of one, but I think as altruists, as people who care,

10:44we try, we have the burden on our shoulders, like we're Atlas, like we're just trying to do it all.

10:49Like if I think about myself, I go outside and the second I step outside, I want to adopt every

10:53stray dog, feed every homeless person, go build a house on the weekends, go reach the elderly.

10:57How am I supposed to do that? And, you know, as consumers, how are we supposed to do everything

11:01that we think we're supposed to do? And have we even taken a step back and asked ourselves,

11:05is that actually making the biggest difference? Or are we just doing things out of a performative

11:10sort of nature? So, so it's really important to remind people that you're not an army of one.

11:15There are billions of people that are trying to do the right thing. So pick that lane and almost be

11:19heartless in staying in that lane. And it's something that takes a long time to get, you know,

11:25psychologically into, but I think for me, I've picked my lane. I know where I'm contributing my,

11:31my passion and my expertise to the fight for a better future. And I don't do anything else.

11:36And people look at me maybe from the outside and go, God, John's a terrible human being, but

11:40no, I know what I'm doing. And I know that I only have so much to give because Lord knows,

11:45you know, we push it uphill every time we step out of bed. So why, why add even more stress to that?

11:51So it's about picking that lane, finding that passion point and really being just so committed to

11:55that, knowing that there are others that can do it. Now, how do we communicate that to the

12:00general consumer who is just overwhelmed with all that information? It's, it's just that it's an

12:05education process and it is a slow one. And I think getting away from some of these,

12:10these adages that we've somehow adopted into, into what we do, that somebody has to do everything,

12:16or the one that drives me up the wall. And we hear this, even at sustainability conferences all

12:20the time is, Oh, we're doing this for future generations. We're the future generation that we're

12:25talking about. It's us. We've were frogs in a boiling pot. And we've forgotten that, you know,

12:30we're here now, like, like, you know, this is, it's not a future thing. Like we're experiencing

12:35this now, but again, that analogy of the frog in the boiling pot, we don't know this stuff is

12:39happening, but if you take a step back and you look at the news, it's all over the place. And I

12:44think certainly if we're looking at it through an intersectional perspective, and that was a big

12:48word for a very human conversation, but you know, people in the developing world have been

12:52experiencing the impacts of climate change for decades and it's just now reached the developed world.

12:56So we're supposed to pay attention, but at least we're paying attention.

13:00Yeah. It's something right. Crumbs. And I think it's also, I like how you said it.

13:05That's all we get.

13:08I like how you said it about, it sounds like pick your fight, right? You can't do it all.

13:13But then shifting perspectives to the other side of this conversation, we talked about consumers,

13:19you work with companies. So what are the most common misconceptions that companies have about

13:25sustainability when they say, okay, we're going to go green. We're going to do the thing. We can hear

13:30that people want us to do something. So, okay, draft the sustainability framework. Let's do it.

13:35It's, it's, and it's the same as a human, individuals, consumers, but it's the same with

13:40companies that whatever you're going to do needs to be genuine. It can't be performative. And I think

13:45that's where they trip up nine times out of 10 is they do it because they think they have to,

13:49or they do it without any semblance of strategy. And the reason I work with companies is not because

13:54I'm a sellout, although plenty of people say I am. It's because I genuinely feel if you look at the

13:58three biggest stakeholders, so you have government impacting sustainability. I mean, most governments

14:03have kind of washed their hands of the whole thing. Let's be honest. You have individual consumers

14:08and, you know, normal people, and that's fine. But we can only do so much given the scale of the issues

14:13that we're facing, right? There's a limit to that. So the private sector, corporations have access

14:18to resources, capacity, people power that governments are not going to use and individuals

14:24just don't have. So I think there's a lot of potential with them and those companies that

14:28are doing the right thing. And they're a very small handful, but the ones that are, have made

14:32such a massive positive impact on the planet and society that it's just, it's mind boggling. So we

14:38need to get more companies doing the same thing. But back to your question, where they trip up

14:41is they, they try to do it performatively. They're not looking at it strategically, or they're not

14:46looking at it genuinely. They're saying, oh, this is what people want me to do, not what I think I

14:51should do. And there's so many ways to fix that in a way that is genuine to the company, that is

14:56going to be beneficial to their bottom line, which in a capitalist society is what they care about,

15:00but also is going to be extremely beneficial to the planet and society. You just have to get them

15:05thinking a little more strategically about it. The companies that are both doing good,

15:10trying to do good, or capitalizing on the green opportunity that is present right now.

15:17How do you think about that from the level of, if a company is saying they're doing a thousand X good,

15:25but they're doing five X good, is five X worth it because it's moving the needle? Or do they need

15:32to be put on a spit and roasted because they're selling at a thousand X and saying, this is where we're

15:39at, how do you kind of evaluate that? And how do you grade that?

15:44My big thing I always remind companies is that no consumer in their right mind expects a company

15:50to be perfect. At the end of the day, they just don't want to be lied to. And that's what it sort

15:56of comes down to. I know Amazon is an awful, awful company. I know they do terrible things and they're

16:02having such an awful impact on the planet. I mean, they just got married in Venice and you saw what

16:06happened with the, you know, the reception to that. It's not a great one. The dress wasn't great

16:10either, but that's a different conversation for a different day. But like, I know you're bad. Don't

16:14pretend you're good, but where you are doing good things, let me know about it. I want to know,

16:19because I think at least from a professional's perspective, that's going to encourage other

16:23companies to try to be good, but don't try to pull the wool over my eyes and act like I'm a moron.

16:27I know that, you know, you're, you're doing bad things. So from a company perspective and a

16:32positioning perspective, getting them to be out and loud and proud about the good stuff

16:36that they're doing to encourage others to do good. But at the same time, recognizing and being honest

16:42that, Hey, these are our barriers. These are the things we need to fix. And this is what we're trying

16:46to do. Or, Hey, we're not going to get to that right now because we have all these other things.

16:49That's okay. I can get behind that. That's fine. But it's about getting them to be open and honest

16:53in what I call radically transparent. Now, are they going to do that? No. And what we're experiencing

16:58right now is sort of a backlash against talking about anything sustainable. Green hushing is the

17:04term. And I hate to add more to the list of terms that we use, but green hushing, where a company

17:08just won't talk about it at all, even if they're doing the right stuff, because they're worried

17:11about activists in the media coming out and picking them apart. And you know what? You pull a

17:16thread long enough and hard enough, you're going to find something wrong. So getting consumers and

17:21companies to really say, Hey, we're not perfect, but at least we're trying. I think it is at this

17:27stage of the game, the only crumb we're going to be able to get out of a lot of, a lot of corporate

17:32actors. I see that. And I think there's also something, I see this, for example, in influencer

17:36marketing or celebrities where it's like, Oh, they should speak up. They should be saying something,

17:41blah, blah, blah. And then when they say something, it's like, Oh, they didn't say enough. They

17:44didn't do this. They didn't do that. I can imagine a company, there is a...

17:49There's a balance to that, right? Like if you think about it from the influencer perspective,

17:54like everything going on in, whether it's in the Israel-Palestine conflict, or it's with the ice

18:00raids in the United States, particularly, I mean, I'm, I do a lot on TikTok. I'm constantly online on

18:05TikTok. You know, a lot of the creators that are in Los Angeles were being called out for not saying

18:10things against the ice raids, because a lot of them are from immigrant families. So why wouldn't you?

18:14Because obviously they want to protect their, their pockets, right? Of course we get that, but

18:18there's sort of that special moment where you can come out and you can be genuine and talk about your

18:24impressions and feelings about things. But that's a fleeting moment because the ones that came out

18:28after, after that pressure started to go, people go, well, you're just ingenuous now because you're

18:32only doing, because we told you to. So it all comes back down to actually being genuine and what's in

18:38your heart of hearts. Are you saying this because you need it? Or are you saying this because

18:41you're protecting your bottom line? Yeah. You have like a nanosecond

18:46there, huh? Wow. And, and I mean, you have to be smart about it. And I'm not saying this in a

18:51flippant way to just to, to say, you know, capitalize on these opportunities. Although of course, with any

18:56sort of marketing, that's what you're trying to do. But again, just be honest with people. And if you

19:00don't care about the ice raids and you're from an immigrant family, just say that that's okay too.

19:04I mean, it's not okay, but at least you're honest with me. I know where you stand.

19:08You're honest, yeah. I can unfollow you.

19:10It gets hard because there's a point where you stop being an individual and you become this

19:14almost like other entity, right? A company is a different entity, even though it is staffed by

19:21individuals and run by an individual. And I think this separation that a lot of people feel is, well,

19:27I'm going to put the blame on them because they are more and they have more power. They are not

19:31individuals anymore. You know, they're organized and they have the resources and this sort of stuff.

19:36So when it comes to consumers or people who take on TikToks and influencers, how much power do we

19:44actually have to push for sustainable practices? And are we placing too much responsibility on

19:49individuals in this case?

19:51To the second part of your question, I think we do place too much responsibility onto individuals to

19:55have the burden of changing the world. We have a responsibility, absolutely, through our actions and

20:00what we do. But I think, again, the majority of the pressure should be on the corporate actors. And

20:07even if the corporate actors come out and say, hey, we're not doing enough, it's up to us to sort of

20:10pressure them to do more. How do we do that? And had I said this to myself five or 10 years ago,

20:16I would have laughed and called myself stupid. But I've really come to embrace this idea that

20:20speaking with your pocketbook, with your dollars, with your cents and where you spend your money has

20:25such a massive impact. I don't know why it took me so long to realize this, especially given I work

20:30with corporations that I know the impact, you know, the way spending habits have on corporate

20:36strategy. So of course, the way people spend money is going to impact whether a company wants to be

20:41quote unquote good, or just go about doing things as they always done. So so it's a very important

20:47thing. Now, what does that require requires research? Oh, my God, research. And it requires probably

20:51spending a little bit more money at the till, which in these economic times, nobody has,

20:55I understand that. I don't want to do research. And I care. I'm in the profession. But the last

20:59thing I want to do is whip out my phone every time I go to the grocery store to figure out,

21:03oh, God, should I buy from this company or not. So I get that 99% of people are definitely not going

21:08to do that. But take a small step, you know, do a bit of research before you go to the store and

21:13start to make those incremental changes that are eventually going to have this this tidal wave shift

21:19in boardrooms where they're devising their corporate strategies, it absolutely makes a difference,

21:23even, you know, just a small switch will eventually reach a boardroom, and they will

21:28change their ways. It's a pebble in the pond. It sounds it sounds trite. It sounds trite. But

21:34it's true. Yeah, I see that. Margaret Mead would she say that don't underestimate a small group of

21:39individuals change the world. It's the only thing they ever has paraphrasing there. But like that's

21:43that that ripple in the pond, that butterfly effect. I definitely am a big believer in that it's

21:48a gathers mass as it moves your population for people that are listening. Absolutely. For people

21:55that are listening, they're probably going, but that's not enough. That's probably the natural

21:59instinct. I'm just kind of thinking that through this conversation. But that's not enough. We need

22:02to do it all. Now we need to it needs to be faster. And God, I wish it was as easy as flipping a switch.

22:07We'd all be out of a job. We wouldn't be talking right now if it was that easy. But this is not. And I

22:11think going back to these misunderstandings of what saving the planet and society is, a lot of times

22:17we think that it is as easy as just flipping a switch, is as easy as doing this today. And we're

22:23all going to be living on a kibbutz tomorrow. And that was never the intention. And it was never the

22:27reality. But I think this is the mindset people have. And if people have that mindset that, oh,

22:32we're not doing enough, it's not fast enough, or we haven't done it yet, then why am I going to get

22:37involved? And this is such a painful process. So flipping that switch, and so to speak, and getting

22:43people to realize that this is a slow, incremental sort of crumb by crumb by crumb process. And we're

22:49not going to see the impact of the work we do necessarily in our lifetimes. And we have to be

22:53okay with that. And I think that's something that is a very difficult thing to sit with, but something

22:59that we're really going to have to get better at communicating that we're doing this, going back

23:03to this future generations thing, but we're talking about like future, future generations.

23:06Yeah, no, for sure. And I think what you said earlier about, it is just a process, of course.

23:14But there's also that point where you're saying, just talk genuine, just be genuine, don't try to,

23:19you know, pull one on me. So how do we believe them then? Because they've done it so many times.

23:25How can the public distinguish between genuine sustainability efforts, or strategic greenwashing,

23:31especially when both often use the same language, same imagery, you know, there's the same sentiment

23:36there? It's a great question. I think the biggest thing to do is really trust your gut. Number one,

23:42always trust your intuition. If something seems a little fishy, it probably is. Like we don't even

23:46need to get into the specifics of how greenwashing materializes in the marketing and comm space. If it

23:52sounds wrong, find another product somewhere else. But if you're looking for really tactical things that

23:57you can do, absolutely. There are ways to do that. There are certification regimes that exist. So if you go to

24:03the grocery store, a lot of times you'll see like, especially in the coffee or tea section, a little

24:07tree frog on a box that is a, from the Rainforest Alliance. And it's a really great certification

24:13that says, Hey, this company is doing their best to be good for the planet and society. There are

24:17plenty of others, but even with that, be cautious because sometimes, and this is one of the things

24:22I've realized in researching the great greenwashing, marketing departments have created their own

24:25little stamps that look like they're genuine and they're not at all. So that's absolute

24:29greenwashing. But there are other things like it's, if you see a lot of fluffy language or a lot

24:34of statistics or scientific jargon, that's meant to confuse. It's not meant to impress. So that's

24:40a really, you know, a thing to look out for. If there are statistics that have no rationale in

24:45anything, if something says it is 50% better for the planet, I mean, give me a break. What does that

24:50mean? So avoid those sorts of things. But the biggest is in a field that's called semiotics. So

24:55semiotics is just the way that symbols and colors denote meaning. And so companies that greenwash

25:01do this all the time. Like it's the green package. It's the cute picture of the forest. It's the

25:08car advert with the car driving through a pristine forest. Like these are meant to be slick and to

25:15denote a meaning, even if they're not being explicit about it. So be really cautious when you see things

25:20like that, because nine times out of 10, they're probably greenwashing, which we didn't cover that

25:25greenwashing is when a company lies to you that says they say they're sustainable when the truth is

25:28probably not as altruistic.

25:30Our audience has been greenwash to death with how much we've been talking about it. But anybody

25:37catching this episode for the first time, yeah, greenwashing is a real problem. And it's become

25:43a real moneymaker as well. So I want to touch on this for a minute. I think a lot about the message

25:49versus the messenger. And so often one or the other is really easy to attack for a lot of the

25:55reasons that we've been talking about in this. I think about somebody like Greta Thunberg. Was that

26:01really good for environmentalism or was it really bad? Did we put a big target on somebody because

26:08of who they are and what they're saying? So I think about that a lot. I always go to this approach

26:13called the cool uncle approach. That's always my goal. I'm not that cool, but I have an actual uncle.

26:18My uncle Rick is the coolest guy in the room always. Rolls in a Harley no matter where he goes,

26:22right? That guy. And I think about this concept of eating your vegetables. If you're a kid,

26:28eat your vegetables. Your parents tell you. Your doctor tells you. Your teachers tell you. Worst

26:31idea ever. Your cool uncle tells you. Best idea ever, right? And so how do we think about the message

26:38versus the messenger? And where is your attention when it comes to how you're trying to carve those out

26:45and disseminate them and then look at them from kind of your perspective of having a little bit

26:50of trepidation or caution with leaving the message or the messenger, depending on how you're thinking

26:55about it? Yeah, we have to be so much better at marrying the two because it is so important. We are

27:01in a, like we spoke about at the beginning, we're in a comms war right now, a marketing and messaging

27:07and positioning sort of battle to win hearts and minds. God, it's very militaristic of me,

27:12but that's sort of where we are. And, you know, we talked about the activists as the traditional

27:17activists as being the poster child for the movement. And I can't think of a worse poster

27:21child to have for a modern sustainability movement. I can't, I, the second I heard news that

27:25Extinction Rebellion was going debunked and they were stopping things, I was so happy because I,

27:31that was probably the worst thing. And if I'm going to be conspiratorial for a second,

27:35and I'm not, Just Stop Oil and Extinction Rebellion, I think they're psyops, honestly.

27:39And I don't use that language lightly. I think they're funded by the oil companies. And the

27:42only reason I say this is because again, in the research for the great greenwashing,

27:46I found that oil companies in their attempts to be even more slick at greenwashing,

27:51they're funding front groups and lobbying groups. So why wouldn't you take sort of the next logical

27:55step and say, Hey, they're funding groups that look like on the surface, they're doing good for the

27:59planet or trying to be activist groups, but in reality, discrediting the movement. So I'd be very

28:05cautious about a lot of things like that, but we have to be so much better at marrying that message

28:08with the messenger. I love the way you put that. And the cool uncle, of course, is so, so important.

28:13And I don't know, I'd like to think of myself as the cool uncle, I suppose, sometimes in the

28:17sustainability world. I appreciate that. I think one of the, especially through my writing, what I try to

28:22do is approach this as a normal human being. I'm not an academic, I'm not a scientist, I'm not an

28:27activist, I'm just one of everybody else. And so one of the highest compliments I can get from people

28:32after they've read my books is that, Hey, it was just like having a conversation with some love.

28:37That's it. That's all we're trying to do is just have a conversation. I'm not trying to proselytize

28:42unless the audience wants it. I'm not trying to convince you to do one thing or the other. I'm

28:46just trying to get you to think a little bit differently. And if I've done that, my job's done

28:50because that little kernel you're going to take in, it's going to grow in your brain. And then,

28:53you know, before you know it, you're going to be doing something good. And that's, that's success for me.

28:57And it's the same in the corporate world. When I work with clients, it's the same sort of thing.

29:00I'm not going to bang my head against a wall, trying to convince you to do something. And

29:04honestly, one of the reasons I went independent as an independent consultant is because I can fire

29:08clients. If you're not going to do it. Yes. Fine. I have more work that I need to do with other people

29:14who are going to do it. I don't need to work with you if I'm going to have to constantly be,

29:17you know, justifying why we need to do this stuff. So see, I'll go work with this person instead.

29:22Not that it's that easy. If anybody's going into consulting, it's not, but you know, it's,

29:25it's a nice sort of space to get your head around because there are plenty of people,

29:29plenty of organizations that are doing the right thing that need the help to be even better.

29:33Wow. Love that. John, it's the number one thing I learned in my own consulting path in like the,

29:38the food world. Uh, when I learned that I could fire a client, like changed everything,

29:43changed, changed everything completely. So the power dynamics, yes. Don't do it often,

29:48but you know, if you have to do it.

29:50And I think it's really important because it ties back to what you said about choosing your fight,

29:54right. You choose to put your energy where, you know, it's going to go somewhere. And I think

29:59that's really important to not burn out. So thank you for that.

30:03Yeah. John before, and we're out of time as always, we never have enough time, but that's why we always

30:08stick around with our guests to make sure we get a little Q and a, so we're going to get a little

30:11deeper into this. I have a very important question, John, are we in a simulation?

30:16I said five minutes ago, I'm not conspiratorial.

30:19Um, I think you just glitched it.

30:22Did I really? You, you went totally, you went a little conspiratorial. You went hearts and minds.

30:27I thought shock and awe. And then I'm like, are we in a simulation? That's how my brain just

30:31completely went off the rails.

30:33No, I don't think we're in a simulation, but God, if we are, who's running this thing?

30:37Because they're as demented as they come.

30:39It's the, it's like men in black. It's the kid with the magnifying glass.

30:44A hundred percent. We are, we are all in squid game right now and we just don't know it. Yeah.

30:47Yeah. Pocket full of marbles. That is all that we are. Yes. All right, everyone. That's all the

30:54time for this part of the video cast. Again, go to tangeliclife.org so you can check out a little

30:59bit more content. We are not letting John go. We got a little bit more to touch on. We'll get into a

31:04little bit more specifics, probably going to call out a couple of companies. Maybe they're doing good.

31:08Maybe some that you need to watch out for. Definitely check that out. But we've been talking

31:12about sustainability for the rest of us. That's what it really came down to for all of us who

31:17aren't academics, who aren't reading white papers and doing webinars that are so dense

31:21that nobody can understand it, even those putting them on. And we appreciate John for,

31:25for guiding us a little bit, illuminating some small corner of this monolith of sustainability

31:32that somehow we've concocted. So we appreciate that. John, thanks for being with us.

31:37Thank you so much.

31:45Let's talk power. Let's talk change. For rural lights to brighter days. Equity rising,

31:53voices strong. We're building tomorrow where we all belong.

31:58Tangela talks, energy, equity, pride, and power in the world side by side. A spark becomes a fire,

32:07a vision that's true. Together we rise. It starts with you.

Sustainability for the Rest of Us: Greenwashing, Elitism & Radical Climate Action w/ John Pabon | S02E11

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