Youth, Law, and Climate Action: Megha Phadkay on Legal Tools for Change

Name: Youth, Law, and Climate Action: Megha Phadkay on Legal Tools for Change | S02E03
Uploaded: 2025-04-28T07:44:40+00:00
Duration: 31 min 17 s
Channel: Tangelic Life

Tangelic Life

4/28/2025

🌍 Can the law become the ultimate weapon against climate change? In this inspiring episode of Tangelic Talks, co-hosts Victoria Cornelio and Jensen Cummings sit down with environmental lawyer and youth advocate Megha Phadkay to explore the powerful intersection of law, youth leadership, policy, and storytelling in driving real climate solutions.

🎙️ What You'll Learn: ⚖️ How environmental law drives climate justice worldwide
📜 The key differences between policies and laws—and why they matter
🌱 How youth-led climate advocacy is changing the global landscape
🏛️ Why storytelling is crucial for winning climate lawsuits
🌍 Real-world case studies: Urgenda in the Netherlands, and community victories in Pakistan
🧠 How emotional resilience fuels sustainable climate leadership

🔹 About Our Guest:
Megha Phadkay is an environmental lawyer and youth climate advocate who has worked with organizations like UNICEF, Greenpeace International, and the Pune International Center. She is a TEDx speaker and co-author of the book Sustainable and Climate Resilient Development Challenges for India (2024). Megha represents the next generation of global climate leadership.

💬 Join the conversation! What role should law play in the climate movement? Drop your thoughts in the comments.

✨ Subscribe to stay inspired and empowered to take action for a sustainable, just future.

🔖 #TangelicTalks #ClimateJustice #LegalClimateAction #EnvironmentalLaw #YouthClimateLeadership #ClimateAdvocacy #ClimateResilience #PolicyAndLaw #StorytellingForChange #CommunityClimateAction #UrgendaCase #ClimateLitigation #YouthForClimate #VoicesForClimate

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Learning

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00:00Thirdly, creating a warm and engaging mechanism for your podcast instead of great, tell me

00:05as a suggestion that combines an upbeat and abiding spirit without any micro music.

00:10Welcome to Tangelic Talks, your go-to podcast from Tangelic, where we dive into the vibrant

00:15world of clean energy, development, sustainability, and climate change in Africa.

00:20We bring you inspiring stories, insightful discussions, and groundbreaking innovations

00:25from the continent-making waves in the global community.

00:28Tune in and join the conversation toward a brighter, greener future.

00:32Let's get started.

00:36Welcome to Tangelic Talks, a podcast at the intersection of energy, equity, and empowerment with your

00:44co-hosts, Victoria Canelo, and myself, Jensen Cummings.

00:47In today's episode, we are talking legal tools to fight climate change with our guest, Megha

00:52Farke, an environmental lawyer and climate advocate.

00:55She has worked with organizations like UNICEF, Greenpeace International, Clifford Chance,

01:00and the Pune International Center, and is a U.S. State Department Climate Action Fellow.

01:06Megha is also a TEDx speaker and co-author of the book Sustainable and Climate Resilient

01:11Development Challenges for India.

01:13It came out in 2024.

01:16Megha, thanks for being with us.

01:18Thank you so much for having me.

01:20I'm excited about this.

01:21So we just last week had a youth roundtable where we're really looking for perspective

01:27from the next generation of leaders that are going to inherit the status quo and are going

01:32to need to make serious strides to improve the landscape that we find ourselves in today.

01:38And so seeing and looking into you a little bit, you're a 23-year-old environmental lawyer.

01:45You are definitely one of those future leaders.

01:48So we're going to talk about your perspective and your experience.

01:50I want to see if we can zoom out for just a second and get your take on kind of how your

01:56generation is looking at advocacy around climate change, around climate justice.

02:01Can you give us a little bit of a kind of a broad perspective?

02:04And then we'll get into some of the details.

02:06Yeah, sure, sure.

02:07I think what you're doing is amazing, even with the podcast and even with the roundtable

02:12you mentioned.

02:13That is something incredibly exciting because I think bringing together youth activists,

02:20not just activists, like students from any and every field together on one table and

02:25having them discuss ideas, discuss their concerns about the future, trying to come up with solutions

02:31for the same.

02:32It's incredibly empowering and it gives us a very different kind of hope that is very,

02:39sometimes it's very lost in the kind of news we are consuming these days.

02:43Everything has a tendency to go, to have a very negative connotation when it comes to the

02:49climate crisis.

02:50And I think spaces like these where there is a dialogue between the youth, we can take some

02:58positive connotations as well, connotations of hope, of creativity, of how to regulate yourself

03:05emotionally while still working towards climate action.

03:09I think something like that is incredibly powering.

03:12According to me, in my experience of working with youth, even in my role with UNICEF, as you

03:18mentioned, the one thing which I found to be incredibly exciting is that when we are working

03:25with students, when we are working with young adults, the most important thing that is that

03:31they are still in that bubble.

03:34And when I see a bubble, I say it with a very positive outlook towards it.

03:38They are away from all the influence of politics, of bureaucracy, and subconscious biases towards it.

03:48So when youth is involved in conversations like this, we feel that their opinions are very raw.

03:56They are very unfiltered.

03:58They dare to dream big.

04:00And that is exactly what we need for the climate action to go on, to actually have big ideas,

04:05to get it all on the table, and then look at the practicality of it and not start with the

04:10practicality and, you know, fight ideas down because before they even bloom out.

04:17I really like that.

04:18That's super inspiring.

04:18Because I think what you always hear is for young people, it's like, oh, you're so naive.

04:22Like, you don't know how things work.

04:24That's why you think this can happen.

04:25It's like, well, no, let me, let me cook.

04:28Let me dream.

04:29And then we'll bring it back down.

04:30Right.

04:31And I can imagine then as a young person yourself, when you were even younger,

04:35and you started in this environmental law process, what drew you in?

04:39Like, how, why did you say, I want to be an environmental lawyer?

04:43And how did you realize that this was actually a tool for climate justice?

04:47So when I was 15 years old in the ninth grade, back in India, I worked with a community in

04:55Nagsara in Maharashtra, which is a state in Western India where I come from.

05:00So I worked with this community to build sustainable water holes for wildlife.

05:06Since I was maybe in first grade, I've always wanted to work with animals and for their

05:12conservation, because I love spending time with animals.

05:15I think it came from my dad, love for animals.

05:19So, but this project with the community, it made me understand how tribal communities,

05:25which have been living with and protecting wildlife, too, are under threat.

05:29We can't just look at wildlife conservation in isolation.

05:33There are various spheres of influence around it.

05:36And the closest sphere of influence are the tribal communities living in the forests with

05:40such animals.

05:42So it was then that I realized how important it is to safeguard both these spaces and the

05:48people who protect them together.

05:50And to be able to do that, I became a lawyer.

05:54So during law school, I interned with an environmental lawyer for two years, where I saw realistically

06:01how cases are fought and won in courts in the National Green Tribunals, which are the

06:08main kind of environmental courts in India, as well as the Supreme Court of India.

06:14This made me realize that while activism raises awareness, yes, it's very important, we need

06:19it, but along with that, we need legal frameworks, because it's ultimately the laws which enforce

06:27accountability.

06:28So that's why I decided to be an environmental lawyer.

06:32And when it comes to climate law or climate policy, it's not as direct as that, because

06:39we have, at least in India, and most of the global south, we have established laws and

06:46legal frameworks for environmental protection, so for protection of forests, for wildlife,

06:53for forest dwelling communities.

06:56But what we don't have are climate laws yet.

07:01So there are laws for the environment, but there are not, there's not that kind of very

07:08formalized legal structure when it comes to climate.

07:10So we have policies, yes, we have various policy documents, we have missions, we have

07:18government regulations, but we don't have legal, like legal provisions, which can be

07:24categorized under laws.

07:26Yeah.

07:27Can you go a bit more in depth in what the difference between a policy and a law is?

07:31Yes, that is the question I get the most.

07:33It can be very confusing at first, yes.

07:35So laws, so there are three primary branches of the, of a democracy.

07:42First is the legislative, second is the executive, and third is the judiciary.

07:47So these are the three pillars of any government.

07:51The laws or the list of laws made down by legislative are called laws.

07:57So basically the list of rules made by legislative are called laws, and the list of rules made

08:02by the executive are called policies.

08:05So policies are not as enforceable as laws are.

08:10Policies are sort of left to the discretion of people who are going to follow them.

08:16Policies can be interpreted by companies differently.

08:19Companies have their own policies.

08:21States have their own policies.

08:23So there are many layers and many private players also involved in policymaking, which we

08:29don't see in the case of laws.

08:30Yeah, and then policy can often lead to laws, right, when, when they gain critical mass and

08:36then are passed through the legislative branch.

08:39I'm interested broadly in the law and then specifically with climate.

08:47Often the case or the lawyer that wins is the one that tells the best story, right?

08:52This is, this is often the case.

08:54And I think we see this dramatized in television entertainment all the time.

08:57I think it's true.

08:58We are, we are storytelling machines as, as humans.

09:01So how do you balance that?

09:03And I'm interested in your perspective early on when you were kind of clerking and seeing

09:07this in action, how do you balance the, the legal, the law itself, the precedent with

09:14the narrative, especially around climate?

09:17Because it's, it's so political.

09:19It's so socially charged.

09:21It's so economically charged.

09:22How do you balance that when you're looking at the kind of formulating a lawsuit?

09:27I think climate lawsuits are very exciting in that kind of, from that perspective, because

09:35as I mentioned, climate laws are not as developed as much.

09:39So in order for a very successful case or a very successful climate lawsuit, it's about

09:46the law.

09:47Yes, obviously, but it is also about good storytelling, as you mentioned, and the science.

09:53So we need all these three parts to build a strong climate lawsuit.

09:58So let's start with the law.

10:00Law is the foundation.

10:01So you obviously need a very strong legal argument, whether it's about constitutional rights,

10:07whether it's about environmental statutes or international agreements.

10:12So without legal basis, even the best story can fall flat in court.

10:16And that's when I think people get confused when it comes to petitions, because cases in

10:23the court are fought on the basis of legal principles and not popularity.

10:27So even if like a million people sign a petition, if you can't prove it on the basis of a legal

10:35right, which is violated, your case won't win.

10:38So it's a very sad truth.

10:41Or you can turn it both ways.

10:44Yeah, that makes sense.

10:45So then when it comes to strategic litigation, how are communities using this kind of thing

10:52that you're talking about to push governments or corporations into climate action or basically

10:56just to protect themselves in that way?

10:58As I mentioned, or as it was mentioned, storytelling is also extremely important, because when you

11:05in some cases, when you don't have strong climate laws, stories come into play to shift

11:10that narrative and to plead the case in court, if you have some legal basis, obviously.

11:17So communities are using climate litigation as a tool in, so we see many different cases

11:25when we look at this.

11:26So I'll start with a case study for this, because it's very easy to explain it that way.

11:32So one of the first and the most famous examples we have of this is the Urgenda case.

11:40I hope I'm pronouncing it right.

11:42So it's a Dutch name.

11:44So it was a case in 2015.

11:47So when the Urgenda Foundation in Netherlands, along with 900 Dutch citizens, they sued the

11:55Dutch government for failing to adequately reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

11:59And they cited human rights reasons for that.

12:02And they won.

12:03That was the most exciting part.

12:05So it was a landmark moment because it showed how government could be legally compelled to

12:10take climate action.

12:12And this was back in 2015, where we didn't have strong national climate policies.

12:19All we had was the Paris Agreement.

12:21But national policies were not made yet in many different countries.

12:25So that is a case study from the north, the global north.

12:30But from a global south perspective, in the same year, in 2015, we saw a community class

12:37action, which is called the Laigri judgment.

12:41So the name of the case is Laigri versus Federation of Pakistan, also like in 2015.

12:47So a farmer, along with the entire community, they took the Pakistani government to court

12:55for failing to implement its own climate policy, which was a very budding climate policy back

13:01at that time.

13:02And the Lahore High Court ruled in their favor.

13:06So in judgments like this, we find the power of community-driven strategic litigation, provisions

13:14like legal provisions, such as class action suits and public interest litigations, are

13:20used to bring together a community to form a case and then present it to the court.

13:28So I think that's where community-driven strategic litigation lays a huge role.

13:33Yeah, fair.

13:34And it sounds like communities are quite involved, because I would imagine in the legal or policy-driven

13:39spaces, these voices tend to be excluded.

13:42So in your experience, I'm guessing this is a great example of how they are included, but

13:47do you see that a lot, where it centers community voices, or do you think there's a bit of maneuvering

13:53you have to do to get those voices in?

13:55I think both, because we are definitely finding more and more community voices these days on

14:02the table, giving a voice in conferences, in citizen boards, which are formed for deciding

14:10landmark judgments for, we see some sort of public participation in environmental cases

14:15as well.

14:16But it is still not at the point, not at a point which is deemed as sufficient.

14:23It's still growing.

14:25And I gave the example of these two cases, not because community action was very strong

14:30back then.

14:30But these are the first documented cases where community played a huge role in climate litigation.

14:36So it did start back then, but it was very, very rare.

14:42And now it is growing, but we don't find it as often.

14:46Mostly, as you mentioned, climate litigation has a lot to do with politics.

14:52And that's where community voices fall flat.

14:57So it's a very fine balance between balancing the local politics and development and environmental

15:04concerns.

15:05So it's always like a tug of war between these three forces.

15:09And that community aspect, I'm interested for you personally, and I appreciated you sharing

15:15how your love of animals and some of that from your father and those early times for you.

15:19As you get into the muck a little bit with all of these types of lawsuits and these challenging

15:26processes and policy and legalities, it's cumbersome.

15:34It feels very heavy.

15:35How do you stay grounded?

15:36How do you think about that 15-year-old and how you were so inspired to go and support

15:43animal welfare, climate justice?

15:47How do you stay grounded?

15:48How do you stay centered through all of this difficulty that you have put yourself into

15:54and are doing this amazing work?

15:55But it can be heavy, I'm guessing.

15:58Oh, yes.

15:59It can be extremely heavy.

16:01And I think when it comes to domains like climate, which are very tangible, and the more you

16:08learn about it, the more you go into spaces of climate impact, the more it impacts you mentally

16:15and emotionally.

16:15So you really have to set clear boundaries between your emotional space and your motivation to

16:24work for it and the professional sphere where you need to collect evidence, you need to build

16:29cases, you need to document how climate impacts are felt by the most vulnerable of the communities.

16:35So I think what grounds me is being a part of common spaces where you where there are more

16:44climate leaders like you sharing your experiences, giving feedback, because in spaces like these,

16:51you feel the most understood.

16:52And one such space was the one created by Greenpeace.

16:58So Greenpeace does this amazing work of of an international climate justice camp.

17:04So it's a space basically for climate leaders from all the different countries to come together,

17:10take a retreat for seven days, recharge themselves, share stories, have a safe space to voice out their

17:17emotions, what they're feeling, and then go back to their work feeling recharged.

17:22So I think the more spaces like these we have, the better we'll get to ground ourselves.

17:31And on a more individual level, I keep a diary of small wins, which I read every day.

17:36So small wins can be anything, it can just be going out in the sun, or it can be writing a book.

17:44So it can, it can range from anything.

17:48And having that list at the end of the day to go back to helps me stay like grounded and positive and enough.

17:56Be able to take a deep breath.

17:59I appreciate that because that's, that's going to be important for you for your own personal mental health and

18:05your fortitude to be able to continue this fight in this journey that you're on.

18:09You mentioned Greenpeace.

18:11You've worked with UNICEF, as, as I said, on the front end of the show and other organizations as well.

18:18For our organization, Tangelic, who allows us to host this amazing podcast, Tangelic Talks,

18:24we're in our infancy and learning how to be a part of the landscape of climate change, climate justice,

18:31clean energy, sustainability, right?

18:34I'd love for you, selfishly, if you could give us some advice, how are you seeing organizations

18:39that are doing the best job of positioning themselves, of creating a foundation, creating

18:43also longevity in the work that they're doing?

18:46Can you, can you give us some insight there?

18:48I think organizations like big names like these or UN organizations feel very daunting and feel

18:53very like mega giants and unreachable.

18:57But I think what makes them very, again, grounded is that they have what are called as local

19:05chapters, which that's the way I got involved with UNICEF.

19:10And working with these local chapters is the best thing from my, from my perspective, because

19:16it helps you study such an abstract and dense concept as climate from a very local, regional

19:24and relevant level when it comes to ground action.

19:28So my suggestion will be go for local chapters.

19:33They have small teams, controlled teams, focusing on very regional impacts, which can be felt in your

19:41communities, communities which you are a part of.

19:44So don't go for the name, go for tangible impact, which you can make through these local chapters.

19:50And then you'll get, you'll get a wedge into the network.

19:54And once you are associated with that local chapter, you'll be able, like a whole new domain

20:00of networks and connections and amazing people opens up for you.

20:05So then you'll be able to work, work with all the giant players that you want to work with.

20:10I really like that.

20:11Yeah.

20:11Like making it a bit more local and accessible and then going from there.

20:15And then since we're talking about those kind of international organizations and frameworks,

20:22what role do you see them playing in building a stronger climate legal framework in that sense?

20:28So maybe a local chapter is really good at the policies that can then turn into legal frameworks

20:33or is the pressure from international organizations like this pushing for policies to be turned into

20:39legal frameworks?

20:40Like, do you see them playing a role or is it quite localized still?

20:45So they definitely play a role because I think these partnerships of international organizations,

20:53of international treaties even, and local players, these partnerships create a two-way street.

21:00So it's not just bottom up or it's not just top down.

21:04It's a two-way street.

21:06International alliances on organizations like these, they help us set the vision, zoom out

21:12and look at the same problem from different contexts and different areas of the globe and bring resources.

21:21I think that's the most important.

21:23So they do that.

21:24And grassroots movements help hold them accountable and help adapt these policies to the local context.

21:31So I think both are very essential for the frameworks to work in the real world.

21:37And we need both of them to sort of take the international policies, adapt them, and as you said,

21:42hopefully turn them into strong legal frameworks and laws in the future.

21:47Yeah, it makes sense.

21:48And I can imagine a lot of it has to do with, I really like how you said,

21:52you can have this policy and then adapting it to the local context to make it work.

21:56Do you have any examples in your work that you've seen of those kinds of policies sort of making their way into a local setting?

22:03Yes.

22:04So I'll give an example of India because I have the most experience working there.

22:08So we have one national policy called the National Action Plan on Climate Change,

22:14which is the only climate policy that we have on the national level.

22:17So what players like UNICEF and also other local NGOs they're trying to do is adapt this NAPCC or the National Action Plan on regional basis.

22:29So after those efforts, we were successful in having state action plans on climate change,

22:33which is a very state-based, localized, relevant to regional context policy.

22:39And now we are further trying to adapt that SAPCC, which is a state action climate plan, on sub-state or regional basis.

22:51And hopefully come up with city action plans in the next one to five years, let's hope.

22:57Yeah.

22:58Oh, that's really good because it sounds a bit like what you were saying with young people.

23:01You know, we dream big and then we sort of putting into practicality.

23:05So having a very high level thing and then sort of trickling it down into a local level,

23:10I think it's something a lot of people tend to be a bit averse to because the top-down approach seems so, you know, disruptive.

23:17But in this case, it sounds like, you know, having this high level to then sort of get really singular about it tends to work.

23:26Yeah, that's really cool.

23:27And then this is a complete pivot, but I do need to hear your thoughts on this.

23:32What are your thoughts on environmental personhood?

23:35As a concept of law to help protect, you know, environmental, maybe landmarks that are important to us or that sort of thing.

23:43And if you can explain to our audience what environmental personhood is.

23:47Yes.

23:47So environmental personhood is a concept where natural element are given legal personhood and legal personalities in the eyes of law.

23:56So, for example, if you take a river and give it personhood, then you can fight on behalf of the river in courts to demand for its purity, to demand for its protection from water pollution, from getting diverged into other areas.

24:15And it essentially losing its personhood, it's a very gray area, yes, because it's extremely difficult to implement it in cases where there are very contradictory rights of like communities and rivers and wildlife and development.

24:30So it becomes sort of very muddy and murky waters in that case.

24:35But a very important case that I came across it last month in which this is seen is what was a Uttarakhand high court judgment in India, where they gave environmental personhood to a river, river Ganga, which is the main river of India.

24:54So they were successful in giving it legal personhood.

24:59It stemmed from an NGO coming up to court and fighting for its rights.

25:04But ultimately, they had to change the decision because, as I mentioned, it's not as easy as giving a personhood and then, oh, everything is hunky-dory.

25:14There are very, very conflicting interests at play.

25:21So you can't.

25:22Yes.

25:23So they reverse the decision.

25:24Very sadly.

25:26It's interesting because we've given corporations personhood, basically.

25:30So this makes probably even more sense to me when it comes to that because it's much more of a living, breathing thing than a corporation is.

25:39So you're already doing this.

25:42You've already done this by being here and speaking with us today.

25:45And I want to take a moment and just continue to inspire the next generation.

25:49I have young kids and I want them to look up to role models like the two of you.

25:54Absolutely.

25:55And so take a second and give some insight and some advice specifically to somebody who's 15 right now thinking about how their trajectory within this world is going to be shaped and how they're going to help shape the world that they're coming into.

26:12Any good tidbits of advice that you have specifically for the youth of this next generation?

26:17I think two things.

26:18I think two things.

26:20The first is, and that is what I love about the climate movement, is that be convinced that there is a space for everyone.

26:27One, you don't have to be a climate scientist, you don't have to be a public speaker or a lawyer to be able to do your part to the movement.

26:39You can do anything you like under the sky and still contribute to the climate movement.

26:44You can be an actor, an author, a dancer, like anyone under the sky and still do your part.

26:53And I think that's the beauty of it.

26:55It's extremely inclusive.

26:58You need to decide how to express yourself and then pave your own way.

27:03So, yes, my first advice will be don't have these preconceived notions that you need to be a particular person to have the most impact.

27:12You can still be yourself and still contribute.

27:15That's the first opinion.

27:19And the second one is start conversations.

27:22I think conversations, starting to talk about climate, about impacts, is the best way to get climate action ready and to actually bring about a change.

27:34So, start talking about climate.

27:36Let it be a dinnertime conversation.

27:38The more used you are to all the climate terminologies, and it's not that technical, like easy terms and the impacts, the more empathetic you'll be and the more you'll be able to work in the field later on.

27:53So, yes, make it an everyday conversation in your family is the second opinion.

27:58And maybe one little extension to that thought.

28:02Starting that conversation can be really difficult, especially in that generational conversation.

28:07So, you're just a kid.

28:07What do you know?

28:08Right?

28:09So, it gets shut down very, very quickly.

28:11How do you push through that?

28:13How do you bridge that gap?

28:14Make it pictorial.

28:17Show them photos.

28:19Because from my experience, kids learn the best when it's many kids, most of the kids are visual learners.

28:28So, instead of telling them facts and figures and data and like heavy words, it's more useful to just show them photos of what's going on in the world without making it too negative, of course.

28:39We don't want to attach a negative connotation to climate at all.

28:42So, showing photos, having interesting games like Climate Fresque, which is a very interesting card game for school students.

28:52So, looking for avenues like this.

28:55Okay, I'm going to check.

28:56I'm going to look at that myself.

28:58I appreciate that.

28:59And I think that the education for ushering in a better future is going to come from the next generation.

29:09I think it's time for the elder generations to listen, to spend more time listening.

29:17And so, just for me personally, being an elder millennial, I appreciate the knowledge and education getting from the two of you.

29:23Every week, I get so many nuggets of wisdom from Victoria.

29:27And so, I appreciate the kind of work that you're doing because it's really important and it's easy to get overlooked and dismissed when there's just such a rigor and structure in place that we've created and this construct that we've created for ourselves.

29:43So, thank you for that.

29:46And once again, everybody, you know, we never have enough time with our guests.

29:51We always have that exclusive content over on the blog post.

29:54So, Victoria and Mega are going to stay on for a little bit longer and record some Q&A.

30:00So, definitely check that out as well.

30:02Follow Mega Fodke on LinkedIn.

30:06I know you're active on LinkedIn.

30:07So, definitely check that out.

30:08Mega Law.

30:10Search that on LinkedIn and follow your journey there.

30:12So, once again, everyone, this is Legal Tools to Fight Climate Change, an amazingly inspired episode.

30:19We appreciate you all for tuning in.

30:21And hopefully, as Mega said, you can be yourself and find your own role, your own voice within climate justice, climate change, and the future of this world.

30:31Appreciate you all for tuning in.

30:33Thank you so much for having me here again.

30:42Let's talk power.

30:44Let's talk change.

30:46For rural lights to brighter days.

30:49Equity rising.

30:51Voices strong.

30:52We're building tomorrow where we all belong.

30:56Tangela talks.

30:58Energy equity.

30:59Pride.

31:00Empowering the world.