- 2 days ago
Heavy rains on Wednesday night and Thursday morning led to flooded roads and underpasses, exposing the inadequacy of drainage systems.
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00:00The national capital region, whether it's Delhi and Gurugram in particular,
00:04found itself once again on its knees after a spell of rains on Wednesday night and Thursday morning.
00:09As heavy rains flooded roads and underpasses,
00:12the city's drainage system or the NCR's drainage system exposed yet again.
00:17Once again evident that urban infrastructure is barely holding up.
00:21Failed drainage systems, collapsing traffic,
00:23showing how despite crores being spent,
00:26smart cities being announced,
00:27monsoon preparedness remains patchy yet again.
00:31It just seems every year the same question has to be asked.
00:35Why are our metros crumbling?
00:37That's the question that we are going to raise on the show.
00:41Why is urban infrastructure crumbling?
00:43How do you make metros monsoon-proof?
00:45Why are the lessons not being learnt?
00:47Several people we are told have also died in the water logging in Gurgaon.
00:52Sudhir Krishna, former Secretary Ministry of Urban Development joins me.
00:55Dikshu Kukreja, Urban Planner joins me.
00:58Appreciate you're both joining us.
01:00Sudhir Krishna, let's start with Gurugram.
01:02Because in Gurugram, even the slightest bout of rain
01:04in the so-called millennium city results in complete chaos.
01:10What explains this?
01:11A so-called new city of 21st century India
01:14can't handle the rains, it appears.
01:20You're on mute, sir.
01:22You're on mute.
01:22Thank you, Rajdeep.
01:31It's a pleasure to be here.
01:33Thank you for inviting me.
01:34And the challenge is also very serious,
01:37not only for Gurugram,
01:38but for many other metros also,
01:40and even for tier 2 cities also.
01:42And I see the primary reason for this is inadequate vision,
01:49lack of vision about city's development.
01:52And the vision converted into actual approach
01:56is lack of regional planning.
01:59Regional planning is not there
02:00and we are doing incremental planning or localized planning,
02:03you know.
02:04You want to develop a structure.
02:05Gurugram, sir, Gurugram is a smart city.
02:07Gurugram has been designated a smart city.
02:09Gurugram has all the high per capita income dwellers there.
02:14When you say lack of planning,
02:17do you blame the state government, center?
02:19Who is responsible in your view?
02:21Is it the municipal, civic level authorities
02:23who simply don't do enough?
02:25It is like, you say,
02:26regional planning is a responsibility of the state government
02:29and of course the government of India.
02:31See, the problem has come in a complicated manner.
02:34That the regional development is a local subject.
02:37The government of India introduced the smart city mission
02:41and they pushed for it.
02:42It was localized effort.
02:44So the smart city means smart gadgets,
02:46smart applications and so on.
02:48But what the cities require,
02:50first and foremost is drainage planning.
02:52Water must flow out systematically.
02:55That doesn't require so much of smartness,
02:57you know.
02:57It requires more of a calm, cool planning
03:00for which we have to use smart,
03:02you know, initiatives like satellite imagery and so on.
03:05But do some good drainage planning.
03:07Every city must have a fundamental requirement
03:09for any city is drainage plan,
03:11which is missing.
03:12Therefore, the water logs here and there.
03:15That is one.
03:16And coupled with that weak local governance.
03:18You see, the Gupta Municipal Corporation
03:20is not the only body handling issues
03:23connected with the water flow.
03:25There is development authorities also there
03:26and GMDA and the Municipal Corporation
03:29and there are many other authorities
03:31also operating, handling the area, roads and the water.
03:34So therefore, multiplicity of authority
03:36is also a challenge.
03:37So these two are, to begin with,
03:39I will say there are other issues also
03:41of issues of that we will discuss.
03:43But you made a very important point.
03:45You have said multiplicity of authorities,
03:47the complete lack of focus on drainage.
03:49It's all very well to have smart cities,
03:52but you can't have smart cities
03:53which don't focus on drainage.
03:55Dikshu Kukreja, year after year,
03:57and this is probably the second or third year
03:59in a row you've come on the show,
04:01it simply seems to get worse.
04:03Last night, even an hour of rain
04:04was enough for complete water logging.
04:06It continued this morning as well.
04:08I've singled out Gurgaon,
04:10but look at Delhi itself,
04:11the national capital,
04:13unable to handle the kind of rain
04:16that perhaps Mumbai would treat as a normal day.
04:20Delhi just seems unable to handle
04:21even the slightest rainfall.
04:23Is there something seriously wrong with the system?
04:27Well, Rajdeep, first of all,
04:29let's both try and resolve that next monsoon,
04:32when you and I meet on this show,
04:34you know, the problems have been wished away
04:36and our cities are better.
04:38But on a serious note,
04:39I think, yes, it's a systemic problem, Rajdeep.
04:42And the problem here is that
04:44right from the way the master planning
04:47and the development of the city is done
04:49in a very ad hoc fashion,
04:51you know, unauthorized colonies
04:52are suddenly regularized.
04:54Well, fine, if they have to be regularized,
04:56but what about the infrastructure?
04:58They are not even having the capacities
04:59for which the habitation is there.
05:02And in the case of Gurgaon,
05:03if we stick to that,
05:04it's been a very sad state of affairs.
05:06When we talk about multiplicity of authorities
05:08in Gurgaon, MCF, GMDA, Huda, et cetera,
05:12why couldn't we learn from the instance of Delhi?
05:15Delhi, we have perennially had this problem
05:17of multiplicity of authorities.
05:19And here we go about repeating
05:20the same mistake year after year
05:23and in city after city.
05:24As far as the aspect of topography is concerned,
05:27the soil strata is concerned.
05:30All these scientific aspects are completely ignored.
05:33So in Gurgaon, whether you look at
05:34how the Batshapur drain has been completely savaged
05:37and now there is no proper drain network there.
05:41If you look at Gulf Coast Road
05:42or you look at the Southern Peripheral Road,
05:45Cyber City, another instance,
05:46yes, it might have glitzy buildings,
05:48but that's all it has, I guess,
05:50because it's completely impervious.
05:52When it rains,
05:53there's no percolation of water into the soil.
05:55So you see this kind of a situation.
05:58But is it because, Dinesh,
06:00they are not taken care of it.
06:02Is it because, Dinesh,
06:03that here is a city which, as I said,
06:05was a 21st century.
06:06If you went to Gurgaon,
06:07even in the 1990s,
06:09much of it was very rural.
06:11You build on farmlands,
06:13you build these multi-story skyscrapers,
06:15but you don't focus on
06:19where is the water going to move
06:21into those traditional water outlets.
06:23You are building on some of those water outlets.
06:27Is this, therefore, a man-made tragedy
06:29above all else in cities like Gurugram
06:31and in many other cities across the country?
06:33We are seeing it in Bengaluru.
06:34We are seeing it in parts of Mumbai.
06:36You are building over water bodies,
06:37lakes in Bengaluru,
06:39your marshlands in Mumbai,
06:40and that really is causing havoc.
06:44And add to that,
06:45Chennai, Pune, and many, many more.
06:47Yes, it's absolutely that.
06:49It's not a holistic planning,
06:51particularly in the case of Gurgaon.
06:53If you see, you know,
06:54just land allotments have been done sporadically
06:57without a comprehensive master plan.
06:59So suddenly you see these high-rise buildings
07:01next to plotted development
07:02or next to just shanties
07:05and slum developments
07:07because everything's just come up
07:09in a sporadic manner.
07:10And as far as the infrastructure goes,
07:13for example,
07:13if we talk just about the rainwater
07:15or stormwater management,
07:17there should be a system
07:18that within these so-called islands
07:20of, you know, excellence
07:21or that have been made,
07:23why is water management not happening
07:25at first that micro level
07:27and then at a city macro level?
07:30There needs to be a master plan
07:31which integrates blue and green.
07:34That's what's happened world over.
07:36That's how cities work.
07:37When I say blue and green,
07:38I mean that the water network of a city,
07:41whether it's the water supply system
07:43or the stormwater runoff system,
07:45it has to be comprehensively integrated
07:47into the master plan.
07:48And greens,
07:49unless you have soft areas,
07:51soft surfaces in a city,
07:53you can't go about concretizing everything.
07:55So is it too late?
07:56And if you do that,
07:56where will the water go?
07:57Is it too late?
07:57Is it too late according to you, Dixu?
08:00Well, Rajneet,
08:02I'm a perennial optimist.
08:03I would never say it's too late.
08:05Yes, it's unfortunate
08:06because here we position Gurgaon,
08:08as you said,
08:09a smart city
08:09and, you know,
08:10the golden goose for Haryana.
08:12Here we position India
08:14aimed to becoming a Viksit Bharat.
08:16This is not the way we can get there.
08:18So yet I would say it's not too late.
08:20Like I said,
08:21strategies can be brought into place.
08:23Let's have a more unified authority
08:25when it comes to infrastructure
08:26development of Gurugram.
08:28Let's have a blue and green map
08:30and planning integrated
08:31into the master plan of Gurugram.
08:34Let's have all these low-lying areas,
08:38nanas,
08:39the paleo channels of water
08:40that were there,
08:41which have been just recklessly covered.
08:43Let's do a scientific evidence,
08:45a scientific research
08:46of seeing how the lay of the water
08:48is now when it rains.
08:50And all this can be repaired.
08:52All this can be improved.
08:54But there has to be,
08:55rather than political bickering,
08:57rather than transferring the blame
08:58from one authority to another,
09:00one party to another,
09:01there needs to be consensus.
09:02And one last point, Rajdeep,
09:04if we really want to fix it genuinely,
09:06let's get out of this culture
09:08of selecting people,
09:10technical experts
09:11or construction agencies
09:13on the lowest tender basis.
09:16I think this is the saddest thing
09:17that's happening in India
09:18at the moment.
09:19We think we are saving money,
09:20but the images on your screen
09:22tell us how much money
09:24and capital is getting
09:25and human capital
09:27is getting wasted
09:27by these disasters
09:28year after year.
09:30So we need to get into a system
09:31like the world over.
09:32They select the best
09:33technical consultants.
09:34They don't go just
09:35by the lowest fee.
09:36They select the best contractors.
09:38They don't go just by the lowest fee.
09:40So let's fix it now.
09:42Let me therefore ask Sudhir Krishna
09:43in conclusion,
09:44Mr. Krishna,
09:45do you believe
09:45that there is a willingness
09:47to fix it
09:48or is it too late?
09:49Because as you said,
09:50multiplicity of authorities,
09:51no one is willing to give up
09:52their limited powers,
09:53whether multiplicity of authorities
09:55in Mumbai,
09:56Delhi,
09:56any city of this country.
09:58Do you need,
09:59every city needs
10:00an empowered authority
10:01that specifically deals
10:03with these issues
10:04like drainage,
10:05for example,
10:06unless you have an authority
10:07which is fully empowered
10:08and is therefore accountable,
10:10nothing is going to change?
10:12Yes.
10:13We need an authority
10:14which is fully empowered
10:15but it has to be
10:16a representative body.
10:17It has to be
10:18a representative body
10:19because a singular authority
10:20like if you make
10:21the development authority,
10:23Gurgaon Metropolitan
10:23Development Authority
10:24as the authority
10:25and we think that
10:26the chief executive officer
10:28can handle everything
10:29singularly very well,
10:30I don't think
10:31it is going to happen.
10:32It has to be
10:33a representative body
10:34and that,
10:35see,
10:35our country is different.
10:36Other countries
10:37also have similar models.
10:38Regional authorities
10:39are there
10:39but I mean,
10:40I would like to ignore that
10:41and create our own model.
10:43We should have,
10:44just like municipality,
10:45we should have
10:45a representative
10:46regional authority.
10:49So,
10:49what is happening
10:49in our country,
10:51Delhi is also an example,
10:52so is Mumbai,
10:53MMRDA,
10:54so is the GMD.
10:56That,
10:56you know,
10:56they are doing
10:57planning and development both.
10:59You see,
10:59the authority
11:00is doing planning
11:00and development
11:01so the development
11:02takes,
11:02overtakes,
11:03you know,
11:03they become developer.
11:04Development authority
11:05becomes developer also.
11:06That is a very big challenge
11:07and planning goes in background.
11:09Sometimes they violate,
11:11see,
11:11DDA developed
11:12on the Yamuna flood plain,
11:14they allowed
11:14and they developed also,
11:16construction activities
11:17happened on the Yamuna flood plain
11:18by the DDA itself
11:19because they became
11:20developer come planner
11:21and therefore,
11:22you know,
11:23money becomes so attractive.
11:24So,
11:24these are the governance challenges
11:25are there.
11:26We have to have,
11:27you know,
11:27the constitution
11:28and metropolitan planning.
11:31You make very,
11:32very solid points,
11:33both of you.
11:34I hope someone out there
11:35once again is listening.
11:36You can't have smart cities,
11:38first of all,
11:38without smart planning
11:40and smart planning
11:41involves a complete revamp
11:43of the way urban governance
11:45is done in this country.
11:46But does anyone
11:47really have the time
11:48and energy
11:49and effort
11:50to do that?
11:51These are the questions
11:52that those in power
11:53across this country
11:54must ask themselves.
11:55For now,
11:56for my guests
11:56for joining me
11:57on this vital issue
11:58of public concern,
11:59thank you very much.
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