- 7/1/2025
At a House Rules Committee hearing on Tuesday, Rep. Jim McGovern (D-MA) spoke about his problems with the Big Beautiful Bill.
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00:00Thank you, Madam Chair. I have questions for everybody, but before I do, I have a question for you, Madam Chair.
00:05I'm just reading some of the, this is a post from Fox News saying that Andy Harris, who's the colleague, the head of the, chair of the Freedom Caucus,
00:21has said that he will vote no on the rule when this rule comes before the full committee.
00:30He said that he won't vote no on the rule for the big, beautiful bill.
00:36He said that I don't think it's going to be in the next couple of days, but it's going to have to be a compromise between the House and the Senate,
00:43basically saying we're not there yet.
00:45I guess if the head of the Freedom Caucus is now publicly announcing he's against not the bill, but the rule,
00:51then what the hell are we doing here?
00:53Because I'm, if we lose, if you lose three or four members, then we're just, we're spinning our wheels here.
01:02So do you have any information on where we, how many Republicans are going to vote no on the rule?
01:09Because I can assure you every Democrat is voting no on the rule.
01:11No, sir, and as, as you know, we are the Speaker's Committee and it's our task to hold this hearing on, on the bill
01:24and we'll continue until we're given directions that there is no chance that the rule or the bill will pass.
01:35Okay, I, I just wanted my colleagues to know that, and I'll keep announcing as people on the Republican side
01:40announce that they're voting against the rule, because I think that's relevant information.
01:45But, thank you, Mr. McGovern.
01:46I just, I just want to say for the record, I mean, Chairman Smith said that Democrats said that this bill is only for billionaires.
01:57That's absolutely not what I said in my opening remarks.
02:00And, and, and I'll say it again, it is mostly, this bill mostly benefits the well-off and, but I said I would support,
02:08you know, some of the tax relief in this bill.
02:11You know, you, you know, you, you know, the, the, the bottom line is that I support extending the tax benefits for the middle class.
02:20Told you I supported tax relief for, you know, on, on, on, on tips.
02:24Um, uh, and, um, you know, um, and so I think we have some consensus there.
02:32Where there is disagreement, I think on the tax stuff, is the millionaires and billionaires.
02:38And I, I, I don't know whether you felt you were constrained for time in your opening testimony, uh, or not.
02:44But, um, you didn't, you didn't say anything about the benefits, why, why we're doing, uh, why there's tax relief for millionaires and billionaires.
02:52So, I, you know, you might want to, I'm, I'm happy to give you the, the time now to explain why do we need tax relief for millionaires and billionaires,
02:59especially when people are worried about increasing the debt and, you know, people losing health care and SNAP benefits.
03:07But this is going to cost us, so why, why, why, why do billionaires, why does Jeff Bezos need a tax break?
03:12Ranking, uh, ranking member McGovern, usually when you hear people say that we're, uh, cutting taxes for millionaires and billionaires,
03:24they point to section 199A, which is the small business deduction.
03:31Almost 80% of all businesses in the United States are passed through entities.
03:37And by making that permanent, that small business deduction, that is what helps create so many jobs.
03:45And that is where your side of the aisle continues to talk about the millions and billionaires.
03:51And the other section that you talk about it is.
03:54Is Jeff Bezos not getting a tax break to this bill?
03:57The other section that you all are talking about within, um, tax cuts is, is that we're keeping existing tax rates as they are today moving permanently.
04:08We're not moving, we're not reducing those tax rates.
04:11We're just keeping them the same.
04:12So the fact that we're keeping them the same, you're saying that we're giving Jeff Bezos a tax cut.
04:19Yeah, but he, he, he gets a tax cut, uh, in this bill.
04:22I mean, I'm looking at the, uh, at some of the statistics here.
04:25According to the way I interpret this bill, the top 1% get 22% of the benefit, the top 5% get 43% of the benefit,
04:34the top 10% get 52% of the benefit, and the top 20% get 66% of the benefit.
04:40And I don't know about your district, but most small businesses in my district are multimillionaires or billionaires.
04:46Um, and, you know, you mentioned the child tax credit, um, in your, um, uh, in your opening.
04:52The child tax credit goes down next year because Republicans designed it that way.
04:58Um, you made it temporary, but you made tax cuts for corporations permanent.
05:03So that's why we're, we're dealing with that.
05:06Um, you know, Republicans want to pretend that this bill provides meaningful tax relief.
05:10to families through their child tax credit modifications.
05:13This is patently false.
05:15In fact, what Republicans are doing with the child tax credit in this bill is in many ways even worse than doing nothing at all.
05:21Under this backwards proposal, one in three children in America will be ineligible for the full child tax credit.
05:28That means millions of American citizens, citizen children, will lose access to this life-changing assistance that they're currently receiving.
05:36In addition, families making more than $400,000 per year will be able to get the full value of the credit,
05:42but inexplicably, lower-income families will get nothing or just a fraction of that due, uh, of that due to how Republicans structure the tax credit.
05:52So the official nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation estimated that next year, if this bill passes,
05:5817 million American citizen children will be blocked from getting the full value of the credit.
06:03Now, Republicans claim that they just want to, they want people to work, but that's just false,
06:07because this bill actually strips the child tax credit away from children whose parents do work,
06:13but just don't earn enough.
06:15Under your proposal, even if parents work full-time for an entire year, they'll earn too little to get the full credit if they're paid minimum wage.
06:24And again, this is all happening while we're, some of us are astonished by the way that the tax benefits seem to go toward those at the top.
06:34And I, um, you know, I, and again, I, um, I, you know, and, and, and the, and the people who, this is not just me,
06:42or Democrats on the Ways and Means Committee expressing concern about that.
06:45I mean, the Children's Hospital Association put out a statement opposing this, this, this bill,
06:50saying the new version of the budget reconciliation bill is a crisis for children's health care, hospitals,
06:55and providers nationwide, and we ask Congress to oppose it, uh, you know, as an act to support American, America's, America's children.
07:04But, um, but again, I, I didn't really get a good answer to why Jeff Bezos needs a, a tax break.
07:09Ms. Moore, um, I want to make sure that I have this straight, because I, you know, I, I talked about this, you know, previously,
07:16and I couldn't believe it, but the House bill got rid of nearly, of the nearly 100-year-old excise tax on gun silencers, right?
07:25But that wasn't enough for the Senate. They also got rid of the tax on sawed-off shotguns.
07:30Um, I mean, I gotta admit, uh, I'm not much of a gun enthusiast as some of my colleagues here might be,
07:37but I would imagine that it's easier to conceal a sawed-off shotgun or rifle, you know, uh, you know, under your clothes.
07:43So, Republicans are basically doubling down on what I call the, the Hitman, uh, handout.
07:50Congresswoman Moore, am I right about that? How much would the Hitman handout cost taxpayers?
07:56And can you talk about any other special interest giveaways in this bill?
08:00Well, uh, thank you for answering that question.
08:03Uh, thank you, Mr. McGovern, for that question. Uh, it's, uh, they, uh, the Senate got rid of the tax on sawed-off shotguns.
08:15You're absolutely correct. Uh, and, uh, so there will be no tax on sawed-off shotguns.
08:26I mean, I, I don't, I mean, do you, are there any other little giveaways that we know about?
08:30Are we gonna have to wait for a few days before we, um, we, uh, we find out if there are others?
08:37Well, I, I, I think that some of the things that we're seeing is that while we're cutting educational opportunity, uh, for millions of people, we do provide a tax credit, uh, for the so-called choice program.
08:52It will provide tax credits to those investors that invest in, uh, uh, uh, non-public education.
08:59We also see that there's a special carve-out for banks of certain loans, uh, that will not be, uh, taxed.
09:07Of course, we do see, uh, the protectionist, um, uh, movement toward fossil fuels.
09:15Yeah. Uh, and, um. No, I, I, no, I, I mean, I, I'm just saying, I think in the, in the coming weeks, we're gonna find, in the coming days, if this becomes law, we're gonna find out more stuff.
09:26I know, Mr. Smith, I, I know he wanted to- Right, and, and of course, you remember the silencer.
09:30Oh, yeah, no, which is, you know, like, I, I, I don't, but, Mr. Smith, did you want to respond to why Jeff Bezos deserves a tax cut?
09:40I would be happy to talk about, uh, the, the tax on suppressors and the short barrel rifles that you were asking.
09:48Yeah, but that wasn't my question, but you can, you know, if you want to talk about, explain to us, I think people want to know, like, why does someone like Jeff Bezos need a tax cut when all this other stuff is being cut?
09:58You know, I, and I think that's a, that's not an outrageous question, it's, it's what's on a lot of people's minds, by the way, not just Democrats, but independents and Republicans.
10:07That's why all the polling, that's what the polling tells us, is that people don't quite get it.
10:11But if you, if there's a quick answer as to why Jeff Bezos, or people who earn what he earns, deserve a tax cut, then I'm happy to yield to you.
10:19So I'll just say the reality is, is this legislation is specifically focused on delivering more jobs, permanent tax cuts, and bigger paychecks for hardworking Americans.
10:29That's why the no tax on tips, no tax on overtime, and the tax relief for seniors.
10:33And Mr. McGovern.
10:34He's just spent $50 million on a wedding, and he's getting a tax cut, and, but whatever.
10:38I didn't get invited.
10:39Mr. McGovern, I did find the answer to your question.
10:42Yeah, yeah, yeah.
10:43The $2 billion tax cut on the sawed-off shotguns and so forth comes to about $2 billion.
10:49You know, the dedicated non-partisan civil servants at the Congressional Budget Office, you know, provide fact-based estimates on how much bills will cost the American taxpayer.
11:00How many people will gain or lose health coverage, and other important quantifiable pieces of information that all of us, I think, want to have before voting on legislation.
11:11And we should be thanking them for the work that they do, and yet Republicans vilify them now.
11:17I don't know why, maybe because Republicans may be threatened by the facts, but I think the facts are important.
11:25We need to know how many people are going to lose their health care.
11:27We need to know how many people are going to lose their nutrition assistance.
11:29We need to know how much it's going to add to the debt.
11:32Chairman Arrington, I mean, do you agree with CBO's analysis that this bill will add $3.3 trillion to the deficit?
11:41Yes or no?
11:42No.
11:43Okay.
11:44As the current chair of the Budget Committee, do you agree with President Trump that CBO is quote run by Democrats?
11:49I think they are mostly Democrats, and most likely they're biased in that regard philosophically.
11:57In fact, the current director of the CBO is a Republican.
12:00Yeah.
12:01And that's according to a recent interview he gave with The Wall Street Journal.
12:03That's true.
12:04And do you know what you said about the current CBO director when he was reappointed to his position two years ago?
12:08Probably something good, I hope.
12:09Yeah, you did.
12:10You said he has the two key ingredients to faithfully execute the role as our nation's budget scorekeeper.
12:17Objectivity and integrity.
12:20And then now we hear a whole different version because, you know, Republicans don't like the numbers.
12:25And it's not just CBO saying that your bill will cost trillions.
12:28It's every budget modeling organization with any credibility.
12:31Do you agree with the Yale Budget Lab that your bill will add trillions of dollars to the deficit even when accounting for growth?
12:38Yes or no?
12:39I probably disagree with most of what's coming out of Yale University.
12:42Do you agree with the Penn Wharton budget model that your bill will add trillions of dollars to the deficit even when accounting for growth?
12:48I disagree.
12:49With every organization you've mentioned because of a growth rate assumption.
13:02Well, and they account for growth.
13:04Do you agree with the right-leaning American Enterprise Institute that your bill will add trillions of dollars to the deficit even when accounting for growth?
13:11May I make a clarification?
13:12Yeah.
13:13I mean, you're running through a pretty good list, but I think what-
13:15I'm almost done with it.
13:16I think what- I'll let you finish.
13:18I mean, do you agree with the Tax Policy Center that your tax cuts will add trillions of dollars to the deficit?
13:23No, I don't.
13:24And what about the House Freedom Caucus?
13:27That these tax cuts will- they have a lower estimate, but it'll add over a trillion dollars to the deficit and is way more expensive than the House-pass bill?
13:36Here's my position.
13:38I don't think Democrats or Republicans have gotten serious about addressing the cumulative deficits into the future.
13:49And even when President Trump, before he put his hand on the Bible and took his oath for his second term, CBO projected $20 trillion.
13:59So they- I think a lot of organizations will lump the entire $20 trillion.
14:04What I would say is this bill is focused on the growth part of the fiscal health equation.
14:11And what we have attempted to do is make sure we don't make the deficit problem worse while reaching out to my Democrat colleagues.
14:19So you would disagree with the Freedom Caucus then?
14:21Yeah.
14:22I assume that's one of the reasons why Andy Harris is voting against the rules because he's concerned about what this is going to add to-
14:29I think there are a number of people concerned about that issue, Mr. McGovern, to be honest with you.
14:34Yeah.
14:35In March you said, and I quote,
14:36If the Senate is simply using current policy to get tax cuts permanent while avoiding or skirting the responsibility to bring down spending commensurately, then that is a non-starter.
14:45End quote.
14:46Then in our April hearing on the budget when I asked you if you were here supporting a non-starter, you told me I oppose the notion that in the final reconciliation bill that we would have a deficit increase on the watch of a party that claims fiscal responsibility as a core principle.
15:01As recently as June 10th, you signed a letter that said, and I quote,
15:04We remain unequivocal in our position that any additional tax cuts must be matched dollar by dollar by real enforceable spending reductions.
15:13That union is the cornerstone of the House framework adopted in Section 4001 of H-CON Res 14 and it's the minimum standard for our support.
15:22End quote.
15:23So you've been very consistent in your demands and so I have to ask you, did the Senate follow the House's reconciliation restrictions?
15:30They did not.
15:31I mean, according to the latest analysis from the Committee on Responsible Federal Budget, the Senate violated the House's instructions by over half a trillion dollars and the final bill will add four trillion to the national debt, including interest.
15:45So here we are with a final bill that does something that you called a non-starter that violates your core principles and it doesn't meet what you called the minimum standard for your support.
15:57Have your core principles changed since April?
16:00No, sir.
16:01I mean, do words minimum and non-starter not mean what I think that they mean?
16:06Like, I don't understand, like, why, I mean, if I were on the right of this, I mean, I don't know why, you know, you wouldn't take this opportunity maybe to follow Lisa Murkowski's advice to, you know, maybe have a conference with the Senate and try to work something out.
16:24You know, I, I, it just, it, it seems that everything that everybody-
16:29She may be on to something.
16:30Yeah.
16:31Well, well, it's, well, and again, if that's the case, then I don't know why we're here in the Rules Committee taking up your time.
16:36But, ranking member Boyle, it seems to me to be the prevailing view of literally every credible budget expert across the country that the Republicans' proposal will blow a multi-trillion dollar hole in our debt.
16:48Even Republicans can't seem to get their stories straight.
16:51The Trump White House claims that the bill will reduce the deficit by trillions using magic math.
16:56Senate Republicans are opting to pretend that four trillion dollars in tax cuts don't count as new tax cuts.
17:04And a select few House Republicans, like Congressman Massey, and I hate to add to his misery Congressman Roy, actually admit that the bill would raise the deficit.
17:14Ranking member Boyle, can you explain in very simple terms what Republicans are doing here by ignoring current law and using an alternative way to estimate the cost of their bill?
17:25And is it true that the new version of the bill adds hundreds of billions more to the deficit than what the House Republicans passed earlier this year?
17:33Yes, thank you, ranking member McGovern. I have to give Republicans credit for this.
17:39They have been able to get left-leaning groups and right-leaning groups both on the same side, saying exactly the same thing,
17:47that this bill adds trillions of dollars to our deficit and debt. To be specific, four trillion.
17:55Now, one of the ways, process-wise, that the Senate Republicans achieve this is actually truly historic.
18:02Ever since 1974, we have operated under the Budget and Empowerment Control Act.
18:07That's what created House Budget Committee, Senate Budget Committee.
18:10It's what gave birth to the Congressional Budget Office.
18:13It was to ensure that all members would have accurate numbers.
18:18The official scorekeepers, the Congressional Budget Office, would initiate ten-year projections.
18:28And within the process known as reconciliation that was created, these numbers needed to add up.
18:35If you were going to have new spending, it needed to be paid for.
18:38If you were going to give out tax cuts, that also needed to be accounted for, either through cuts or additional revenue elsewhere.
18:47Ever since 1974, we have used something called the current law baseline.
18:52So, for example, with these tax cuts, the original 2017 TCJA tax cuts, they're set to expire midnight December 31st of this year.
19:02If you want to extend them the following day, the following month, the following year, the following decade, so be it.
19:08You have to pay for it.
19:11Now, because of this legislation, for the first time in 51 years, that will be violated by switching to something that's called current policy baseline.
19:23It is an intellectually bankrupt concept.
19:28Current policy baseline is jargon for essentially this concept.
19:33I bought a donut this morning.
19:36I paid for that donut.
19:37Now, tomorrow, and the next day, and every day for the rest of my life, that donut will cost me nothing.
19:44According to current policy baseline, that is true.
19:48This bill uses, make no mistake about it, current policy baseline.
19:54And again, because I'm being magnanimous, I want to give Republicans credit.
19:59You have just solved Democrats' problem and come up with the way Democrats will pay for Medicare for All.
20:04You have actually solved it by using current policy baseline.
20:09This is a new precedent that has been set, and when this bill becomes law, if it, God forbid, does become law,
20:16this will be the new standard that the Democratic side of the aisle will absolutely follow from now on.
20:24Well, I thank you for that.
20:26Chairman Thompson, I want to go to something that Ranking Member Craig mentioned in her opening, because I think this is important.
20:32When our committee marked up this big ugly bill in May, I recall you saying that your bill protects veterans.
20:40In fact, you actually took credit for the exemptions from work requirements for veterans, former foster youth,
20:47and homeless people that were signed into law as part of the Fiscal Responsibility Act.
20:53And as we're here now with a bill that actually gets rid of the protections for veterans, for former foster youth,
21:00and for homeless individuals, Mr. Chairman, I know you know this, but I'll lay this out for members in this room
21:08who don't serve on the Agriculture Committee, like us, and for people watching this at home.
21:14This means if this bill gets signed into law, veterans, former foster youth ages 18 to 24,
21:21and homeless individuals will now be kicked off of their SNAP benefits after three months.
21:27So a 64-year-old veteran who can't find a job has nowhere left to turn.
21:33I mean, he will go hungry in three months.
21:37A 19-year-old girl, a 19-year-old who lived a complicated life in and out of different foster homes,
21:44gets SNAP for three months, and then she's out of luck.
21:47A person who can't find stable housing and is trying to find a place to stay is kicked off of his food benefits in 90 days.
21:56And so, you know, when we're talking about people being hurt, I mean, these are the people that we're talking about.
22:07And so my question for you, I mean, do you support removing the protections for veterans?
22:13Well, Mr. McGovern, I'm hesitant to correct you, but my statement was President Biden was the one that was pushing those three populations of having them exempt.
22:26From what I saw, and I complained about this at this time in those negotiations, we were cheating those three populations from greater opportunity,
22:35because we were not going to be able to provide them access to the SNAP employment and career and technical education benefit,
22:42which we invest significant monies on.
22:45If they can't work, as you know, being on the committee as long as what you have been and being a champion for nutrition,
22:53which I appreciate your passion, that there's two other alternatives.
22:57This is an average of 80 hours a week working or 80 hours of volunteer work, a month, I'm sorry, 80 hours a month, yeah, of working, volunteering,
23:10or engaged in, and quite frankly, it's my favorite, I'll be honest with you, it's engaged in 80 hours of SNAP employment and career and technical education.
23:20And so just because somebody can't find a job doesn't mean their benefits stop after three months.
23:26They could volunteer an average of 80 hours a month and still be eligible.
23:32Or better yet, let's give them a shot at the American dream, which is not stuck in poverty, it's having access to that ladder of opportunity.
23:42Well, I want to make sure that I'm not misquoting you here, because this was from 51425, when you said, quote,
23:49This committee, Mark, continues to exempt veterans. That was part of the negotiations I reached with President Biden during the Fiscal Responsibility Act.
23:56Negotiations. Our veterans are exempt from the SNAP work requirement. That is the law. We are not proposing to change the law.
24:02Well, negotiations are give and take. That was not my position. I thought we were cheating those three populations.
24:11And the House version did leave them intact, given the fact that they would naturally expire on their own after just a few years.
24:18And with respect that somehow we're cheating them of opportunities. I mean, look.
24:22Well, if we're leaving them stuck in poverty, we're cheating them.
24:25Most states operate voluntary programs and can assign people who are interested in SNAP, ENT, to the program, regardless of work status.
24:33These programs are severely limited. That's right. And they were exempt under.
24:36They were exempt under funding by both the state and the federal government.
24:40So even if you're subject to the paperwork requirements, there's no guarantee that you can participate in training because states don't have enough spaces.
24:48So this bill subjects millions of new people to the time limit in SNAP.
24:53And there aren't nearly enough ENT slots. So to put it in perspective, there were just over 300,000 ENT slots total.
25:02The demand is high. And we aren't here talking about more funding for ENT.
25:08We are here talking about you kicking more people off of benefits.
25:13And just to be honest about what you're doing, you know, please, I think it's important to state that.
25:18I don't know, Ranking Member Craig, whether you want to add.
25:20Mr. Ranking Member, I got to say, I would challenge you to say there are not plenty of volunteer opportunities in every community.
25:29And people's lives are very complicated in case you're not out and about in your districts.
25:35People's lives are very complicated. People don't fit into these nice, neat categories that everybody, that you all outline.
25:42That is, life is not, doesn't fall into black and white categories.
25:46A lot of gray area in terms of how complicated people's lives are.
25:50Ranking Member Craig?
25:52I would just add, Ranking Member, that these are people who serve this nation in our military.
25:58And we each know them. We know homeless veterans.
26:01We know those who are suffering with mental illness.
26:04Right.
26:05And the idea that we are going to take food away from them in their time of need because they can't work 80 hours a month.
26:15To me, it's un-American.
26:17Yeah. And I, again, I find this a particularly cruel provision in the bill.
26:24Ranking Member Craig, this bill sets up a massive new bureaucratic system forcing states to, for the first time ever, cover the cost of providing benefits to people.
26:32States have no clue how they're going to come up with the hundreds of millions of dollars to cover SNAP benefits.
26:39The CBO and 23 governors wrote to us to say that states may be forced to drop out of SNAP entirely due to the increased cost.
26:48States not offering SNAP benefits to people would be catastrophic.
26:54It would make hunger exponentially worse in this country and push people deeper into poverty.
26:59And I can't even begin to guess what kind of long-term consequences that would have on health care costs, workplace productivity, and educational outcomes.
27:07So you don't have to take my word for it.
27:09We had 23 governors write to Congress and they said, quote,
27:12If states are forced to end their SNAP programs, hunger and poverty will increase.
27:16Child and adults will get sicker.
27:18Grocery stores in rural areas will struggle to stay open.
27:21People in agriculture and food, in the food industry, will lose their jobs.
27:25And state and local economies will suffer, end quote.
27:28I ask unanimous consent to insert their letter into the record.
27:31Yeah. And in some states, I know Minnesota is one of them, and you mentioned this.
27:37And by the way, Mr. Pallone and Ms. Moore in New Jersey and Wisconsin are also on that list.
27:43Counties, counties will be on the hook for a portion of that cost.
27:47In Minnesota, I think, I think counties will be on the hook for coming up with $43 million per year to continue offering benefits.
27:55I know you do your homework, Ms. Craig, and I know you talk to county officials about this.
28:02Do county officials in Minnesota have confidence that they can come up with $43 million a year?
28:08And if they can't, then what happens?
28:10No, Mr. Ranke, member, they do not.
28:12In fact, those county commissioners in Minnesota have been burning up my cell phone all weekend long.
28:19States already have skin in the game.
28:22You know, 50% of the cost share for administering SNAP goes to the states.
28:27And in some states, that cost is even higher.
28:29In Minnesota, for example, the cost of administering SNAP mostly, it's about 80%, falls on the counties.
28:36And this bill shifts more of the cost for federal food assistance programs onto them.
28:42I've heard from a bunch of them in the last 24 hours.
28:45And today, the Minnesota Star Tribune, the headline, front page, was Trump's Federal Spending Bill
28:51could force Minnesota counties to raise property taxes.
28:55Realistically, Mr. Ranke, member, the only thing that those Minnesota counties are going to be able to do
29:00with this unfunded mandate is either raise local taxes, county property taxes,
29:06or they're going to have to not fund other priorities in the county.
29:11So this could end up being a tax increase at the state level or at the county level.
29:17I mean, in order to be able to make sure that people have the basic necessity of food.
29:21Yeah.
29:22For many Minnesotans, the tax increase at the local level is going to just completely offset.
29:28It's going to be much, much more than the tiny little tax decrease that some of the folks here are suggesting people may end up with.
29:36Look, it's a lose-lose for Minnesotans, but, you know, Virginia, New Jersey, the members on this committee, the Rules Committee,
29:43and I would suspect a lot of the folks here, Mr. McGovern, don't actually know about this yet
29:48or you've only learned about it in recent days.
29:50Colorado, Ohio, and in particular, North Carolina and New Jersey,
29:55where counties pay actually 100% of the administrative cost.
29:59In fact, I have a statement here from the North Carolina Association of County Commissioners
30:03that was issued last week that I'd like to read because I think it should be incredibly important to members
30:08of the Rules Committee across the aisle.
30:11By reducing federal funding and shifting administrative costs to state and local governments,
30:16Congress would force North Carolina and its counties to replace tens of millions of dollars in lost revenue,
30:22either by generating new funds through increased taxes or redirecting them from other essential programs.
30:29Should the state be unwilling or unable to replace the SNAP benefit reductions,
30:34individual counties will be forced to choose between diverting funding from their own programs,
30:38raising local taxes, or watching their residents go without this important safety net.
30:43Local governments are most disadvantaged to replace SNAP funding.
30:47The best way to ensure our residents receive this benefit is to preserve federal funding.
30:53It's just really, truly difficult, Mr. McGovern, to see how the people in this room could support a bill
30:58that is going to increase taxes at the county level on so many of the states across this country.
31:04And I think this is a big deal. It's a big change.
31:10And I do think this should have been the subject of hearings,
31:14and we should have heard from people from all around the country as to how they would potentially deal with it or not deal with it,
31:21and what the impact would be.
31:23I mean, the cynic in me says that maybe part of the deal is to get states to opt out a SNAP
31:27and to not provide people a food benefit and just take that off the table.
31:33You know, but this is going to have an impact that I think most states don't even have a clue of, right, of what it's going to mean to them.
31:44If I may, Mr. Governor, the CBO scores that you quoted, that was actually when there was state share,
31:53that was scored at a state share of 50 percent, which is outrageous.
31:59And, of course, the Senate made some refinements to the process.
32:03Any error rates under 6 percent is a zero cost share.
32:07The idea here is not to punish anyone. It's to incentivize the states to do a better job.
32:13And understand that error rates include underpayments for people.
32:17Well, underpayments or overpayments, because overpayments get clawed back, and that hurts people in future months.
32:23Well, I would encourage us all to read what actually came back from the Senate,
32:28because, in fact, you know, 10 states in this country are not going to be subject to the cost shift that others are
32:35as a result of a last-minute deal cut over in the Senate by one U.S. Senator.
32:39And for that matter, I'd just say last night the governor of Pennsylvania warned that his state, your state, here, some of you here,
32:47might have to opt out of the program, leaving 2 million people without federal food assistance if these cuts become law.
32:54The consequences for that are health, are rates of childhood obesity, of hunger for economy.
33:00It would be devastating if this happens.
33:02Just one quick question. Are undocumented immigrants in SNAP?
33:06No, of course they aren't, by federal law. And look, every member of this committee should just go on their phone.
33:13I know you all know how to use a phone. The USDA website clearly states, this is a direct quote,
33:18SNAP is not and has never been available to undocumented non-citizens.
33:24Only American citizens and certain other select groups of documented, that means their country, in this country legally,
33:31non-citizens may receive SNAP. It's embarrassing that any member of Congress would actually say that.
33:37No, but I thank you for saying that because I've heard some of my Republican colleagues on talk shows talking about that.
33:43They aren't and they never have been.
33:44And I don't know what they're talking about. I just have one last set of questions for Energy and Commerce.
33:49Mr. Guthrie, President Trump has said time and time and again, and in fact he continues to say,
33:55that Republicans will not touch Medicaid. Which blows my mind that he says that.
34:02But anyway, if Republicans enact this bill, you will be in clear and total violation of that promise.
34:09This bill, as I read it, includes $930 billion in cuts to Medicaid.
34:14That's according to the non-partisan budget scorekeepers at CBO.
34:18But just don't take it from me or even from the budget experts.
34:22Listen to the doctors and the hospitals across the country and say this bill will devastate health care in this country.
34:29The Children's Hospital Association said, and I quote,
34:32The new version of the budget reconciliation bill is a crisis for children's health care, hospitals, and providers nationwide.
34:39And we ask Congress to oppose it as an act of support for America's children.
34:43Your child, regardless of their insurance status, could see the services they rely on reduced or eliminated with significantly less support to sustain them.
34:52The bill amounts to fewer doctors and nurses to see your child, longer wait times, and sicker children, end quote.
35:01Hospitals across the country have raised alarms, including in Louisiana, Ohio, and in your home state of Kentucky.
35:07On June 26th, the Kentucky Hospital Association said that this bill will force hospitals to close and endanger 20,000 health care jobs in your state.
35:17In total, estimates suggest that more than 300 rural hospitals and over 500 nursing homes could close because of this legislation.
35:26The fact that this bill cuts Medicaid has even been confirmed by key Republicans, including Senator Tom Tillis of North Carolina, the Chairwoman Fox's home state, who asked, quote,
35:38What do I tell 663,000 people in two years or three years when President Trump breaks his promise by pushing them off of Medicaid because the funding's not there anymore?
35:51So, Chairman Guthrie, can you answer that question? What should Senator Tillis tell the hundreds of thousands of people in North Carolina who will be pushed off of Medicaid because of the cuts in funding?
36:03And what about the 40,000 people in my district in Massachusetts who will lose their health care?
36:08I mean, you think that they deserve to know why cutting these benefits is such a priority?
36:16And especially because the offsets are being used, again, not to reduce the deficit or the debt, but to pay for tax cuts for very wealthy people.
36:25Yeah, let me start with, as we were here before, the people who were losing their health insurance on the Medicaid side of the people who were most affected, one were illegal.
36:34There are people that are illegal that receive Medicaid benefits through states that choose to do that.
36:39Yeah, not federal.
36:40That was birded out of the bill, so that's not part of it.
36:43Right.
36:44So you got the most...
36:45But never federal Medicaid.
36:46Well, there's two ways to do it.
36:49One is they use the federal office that's 90-10 or whatever you want to call it to administer it.
36:55So that's what we were looking at is the administration calls.
36:58The other thing is you don't have to verify legal status until 90 days into being on Medicaid.
37:03So there's people technically being on Medicaid, and it's scored so that it happens with CBO, and that was not allowed in by the bird rule.
37:10So the other is people that are not eligible because of eligibility rules, and the people that are able to work.
37:15It was 4.6 million, that number of people who were estimated that were able to work.
37:23When we say able to work, it's people that all the ones that you talked about with mental health, with all the other, they're exempted out, people with substance use disorder.
37:30Well, according to the Joint Economic Committee, 184,526 people will lose their health care coverage in Kentucky.
37:40Are they all deserving to lose their health care benefits?
37:43So I would say if they're able to work and choose not to work.
37:47When I say under the restrictions that we have for eligibility, most Kentuckians think...
37:52I know there was some criticism that came out from the governor's office of our bill, but if they're defending people that are able to work and they're not working...
37:59There's an awful lot of people in Kentucky.
38:01Well, Kentucky has one of the lowest workforce participation rates, people who are eligible to work that are working.
38:06And they'll be better off if they're working.
38:09I want to make just one statement before I go to Mr. Colon.
38:13This notion that all these millions and millions of Americans really are living the easy life, staying home watching TV and being on Medicaid and being on SNAP is ludicrous.
38:26A food benefit that's on average $2 per meal for an individual.
38:32I mean, it's just like, it's so offensive to people in this country.
38:37And, you know, I mean, I don't know whether you talk to your constituents who are on Medicaid, but I'll tell you.
38:42I mean, their lives are oftentimes very, very complicated.
38:45And I think they're just...
38:46Part of why this bill is so unpopular is because people think you're talking about them.
38:50I agree that people have complicated lives.
38:52And everybody fits...
38:53You said it.
38:54And everybody fits into a neat category.
38:55But it doesn't make sense to let people that are.
38:58There are a substantial number, according to studies, of people that are receiving Medicaid that could otherwise be working.
39:03That's why we were very careful to sculpt provisions where people that are on substance use disorder, people that are on mental health, they're all exempted.
39:14People with dependent child at home.
39:15Look, living through the last 24 hours and watching the machinations of the United States Senate trying to add things, take things out, move things around,
39:23using the words very careful, don't seem to apply here.
39:26And I'm willing to bet you anything that if this thing becomes law, you know, you'll find out in a few days that there's something in here that none of us knew was in there,
39:33or that has an adverse impact on something that we care about, and it's going to be too late to do anything about it.
39:39So I'm just telling you, this was not a very careful process.
39:42We don't know all of the implications about what is coming before us today.
39:47Well, there's really requirements from the House that stood, and those were very carefully drafted, because of the points you made.
39:52For Ranking Member Pallone, Republicans continue to falsely claim that the only people who will lose health insurance will be undocumented people,
39:59or people who sit at home watching TV all day.
40:02Can you address this point and discuss who will lose health care under this bill, who is actually losing health coverage, and why do they need Medicaid and the ACA?
40:11Well, let me divide the answer in two parts.
40:15One is about the people that lose their health insurance, and the second is about the cuts to providers and the children's hospitals and the other things you mentioned.
40:26First of all, the Republicans have to stop, I know they won't, but they have to stop saying that the only thing they're doing here is work requirements or, you know, paperwork.
40:36The bottom line is that if you talk about the trillion dollars that's going to be cut here, or the 17 million people that are going to lose their health insurance,
40:45there's probably only a third of that trillion dollars that's related to the paperwork.
40:49Now, that's significant because the bottom line is that, you know, it's not fair.
40:53Use the Georgia example I've used a million times where they estimated there are three or four hundred thousand people that were eligible for Medicaid expansion,
41:00and only 4,500 of those actually got Medicaid because of the paperwork requirements, meaning, you know, you've got a file every month,
41:08you have to show that if you're not working, it's, you know, because of a level of disability that's impossible to reach.
41:18You know, that's maybe a third of it.
41:21The rest of it is all the other cuts, right?
41:23So, for example, with regard to the ACA, the subsidies, the enhanced subsidies are going.
41:29So, if your health insurance costs you, you know, is valued as, say, $5,200 a year, and you're paying $100 a month,
41:37you're now going to have to pay an extra $4,000 that would have been subsidized, and you can't afford it,
41:42so, therefore, you don't get health insurance, right?
41:44Right.
41:45So, this is not primarily about paperwork requirements, although those paperwork requirements are so awful that a lot of people will lose their health insurance.
41:54The other thing I was going to say, too, is that you're talking about the children's hospital.
41:58You know, this is what the Senate did that made this so much more onerous.
42:02We don't talk about CHIP, right, much.
42:05You haven't heard much about that, but what's been done collectively between the House and the Senate with CHIP is devastating, right?
42:12So, now there are lifetime and annual limits on how much can be spent for a child on CHIP.
42:19There are provisions that say you have to wait 30 days before you're eligible for CHIP.
42:24So, the children's hospitals are devastated, in part, not only because of Medicaid and the ACA cuts, but also because of the impact on CHIP.
42:33And then what the Senate did with the provider tax was even worse because you understand that there's two things here that hospitals depend on.
42:40If they're failing a state like New Jersey, we'll give them what we call direct state payments so that they don't fail.
42:48Those are significantly cut back in the House and Senate bill.
42:51The provider tax, you know, if you say in the House bill we said, well, we're going to just keep the provider tax the way it is.
42:58You can't raise it due to inflation, you can't change it any other way.
43:03But they didn't change the status quo.
43:05What the Senate did is to scale back and say every year the provider tax is going to be less and less.
43:12And then if you don't get that provider tax at the state level, then you can't give the providers, in this case the hospitals and nursing homes, the level of money so that they can actually operate.
43:25So, look, I don't want to eliminate the emphasis on the paperwork or whatever the Republicans call the work requirements.
43:34That's devastating enough.
43:35But you have to understand that that's a certain percentage of this overall cuts.
43:42It's not the majority.
43:43A lot of this is just directly cutting these programs and the amount of funding that's coming to the providers.
43:51That's what's going on here.
43:54Mr. Guthrie, are you aware how much damage this bill is going to do to the clean energy industry in Kentucky?
44:04I mean, I have a letter here addressed to you from manufacturing companies in Kentucky.
44:09And the letter states, quote, there are already more than 14,000 clean energy jobs in Kentucky in the battery, manufacturing, automotive, grid infrastructure, critical minerals, and clean energy industries, end quote.
44:20A letter further states that $8 billion in announced funding for these industries to your state has yet to be spent and is a significant risk if this bill passed.
44:30It sounds like a heck of a lot of jobs.
44:31I mean, what do you say to these employers?
44:35And, you know, again, I mean, on the tax portion of this bill, I mean, what do you tell the thousands of people who could lose their jobs from Kentucky or, for that matter, in Missouri?
44:50I mean, who want to work in these high-paying industries?
44:53I mean, this bill is a job killer and a climate killer.
44:56If they're the largest battery plants in my district, one battery plant, Ford offers a good product people are going to buy.
45:03They're going to build two battery plants in my district.
45:06They built two plants.
45:07They're going to equip one because they make a good product and people are going to buy it.
45:11They're not going to equip the other.
45:12They're looking for other uses for it.
45:14The other one is actually in my hometown.
45:16And I say this, and I've told people who've asked me about this, I think if people choose to buy an electric vehicle, that's absolutely their choice.
45:23I don't think it's the federal government's job to mandate them to do so.
45:26And I think it's better off for the American people, regardless of what, the specific issues.
45:33But I think people are going to end up buying these cars because they're good products.
45:36But I don't think that they should be mandated.
45:40I just don't think they should be mandated to be bought.
45:43Mr. McGill, our clocks have gone wonky on us.
45:48You've now been going about four minutes.
45:51And I think that's really testing.
45:56No, and I appreciate the Chairwoman's admonition.
46:00But with all due respect to everybody who's here, I mean, this is a big deal.
46:06And we don't even have time to read everything in this bill.
46:11And for many of us who have looked at the House bill and tried to follow what's going on,
46:17and tried to follow what's going on in the Senate, we are really worried about how it's going to impact our constituents.
46:22And so I get it.
46:23But we have no other opportunity to be able to ask these questions and get these answers.
46:28And so, again, I apologize to the panel.
46:33But this is important, and I will-
46:35Can I finish my thought, though?
46:37Oh, yeah.
46:38Okay.
46:39But if I was a business and my member of Congress was not going to mandate that people buy my product,
46:44I might send them a letter as well.
46:45We're not mandating you to buy a product.
46:47Well, they're mandating you have to buy electric.
46:48No, we're not.
46:49We're actually trying to get an industry off the ground and maybe provide a little help in combating climate change
46:56and actually being good to this planet.
46:58Yeah.
46:59Yeah.
47:00And so anyway, I think people would rather that than tax cuts for Jeff Bezos.
47:04I yield that.
47:05I yield back.
47:06I yield that.
47:08I yield that.