This episode of India First examines 11 years of the Narendra Modi government's foreign policy, focusing on India's global standing and diplomatic achievements.
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00:00Good evening. Prime Minister Narendra Modi has been described as India's rescuer-in-chief
00:07by the government. The fact that the government has been able to retrieve stranded Indians from
00:12across the world in crisis, whether in Ukraine or Syria, Libya or Yemen or anywhere in the world.
00:18So as the Narendra Modi government celebrates 11 years in office, the Congress insists that
00:24under Prime Minister Narendra Modi being Prime Minister, India's standing worldwide globally
00:31is crumbling. Is that really the truth? And that's our top focus talk.
00:4311 years of the Narendra Modi starkar.
00:46India's rise in the New World Order.
01:05From Neighbourhood First to Act East.
01:08The successes and the challenges.
01:23Modi Promissory Report Card is our top focus on India First.
01:27The government says Operation Sindur symbolizes New India. Resolute, swift and sovereign in action.
01:41An operation won on the back of Made in India weapons and systems. In fact, defense exports,
01:48they're at an all-time high, standing at 23,622 crore rupees.
01:53The Quad Summit this year, hosted by India.
01:57The G20 was hosted by India.
02:00Prime Minister, incidentally, will be heading to Canada for G7.
02:04But the challenges too are ever increasing.
02:06And we'll talk about that.
02:08I'm Gaurav Savin.
02:09We debate the threats, the weaknesses, the opportunities and the opportunities and the challenges ahead.
02:16But first is always the headlines.
02:17BJP Chief and Union Minister, J.P. Nadda, hails 11 years of Modi government.
02:27His Prime Minister has changed the political culture of India.
02:32Congress asks, why hasn't the Prime Minister held a press conference in 11 years?
02:36Big twist in the Shillong honeymoon murder.
02:46Wife Sonam allegedly got husband Raja killed, hired four killers including her boyfriend to do the job.
02:55A topsy report reveals Shah Pooj on his head.
03:07Showdown over Rahul Gandhi's poll rigging claims escalate.
03:11The Congress MP asks Election Commission to announce dates when they will share Maharashtra and Haryana voter rolls.
03:25Protesters on the rampage in Los Angeles clashes arson over immigration raids.
03:30As U.S. President deploys National Guard, L.A. Governor sues the Trump administration.
03:43In a historic first India, Srivanshu Shukla set to fly to space on his 14-day mission to the International Space Station.
03:53The AX-4 mission will blast off at 5.52pm tomorrow.
04:00Inviting Prime Minister Narendra Modi for the G7 summit, Canada's Prime Minister Mark Carney stressed,
04:12India's presence is essential at the global platform.
04:17India is the fourth largest economy in the world, has been forging its own foreign policy path,
04:23whether it's multilateralism or becoming the voice of the developing world,
04:27the global south, being the first responder in humanitarian crises,
04:31or taking a very firm stand against terrorism and its sponsors.
04:37On the day that the Narendra Modi government completes 11 years in power,
04:41we will discuss the successes and the challenges of India's diplomacy, of India's foreign policy.
04:48But first, we take a look at the political war that's been playing out through the day today
04:52on the Narendra Modi government's 11 years in power.
05:04Prime Minister Modi's big international engagement after Operation Sindhu will be the G7 summit in Canada.
05:11It is here that Prime Minister Modi will meet U.S. President Donald Trump,
05:17along with the heads of UK, France, Germany, Italy and Japan.
05:21Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney emphasised that India's presence at the global meet is essential.
05:28There are certain countries that should be at the table for those discussions,
05:35and in my capacity as G7 chair, consultation with others, some others, make those determinations.
05:42India, the fifth largest economy in the world, effectively the most populous country in the world,
05:49central to a number of those supply chains, at the heart of a number of those supply chains, so it makes sense.
05:54The Canadian Prime Minister argued in favour of India's inclusion at the G7 summit, signalling a thaw in ties.
06:07And in addition, bilaterally, we have now agreed, importantly, to continued law enforcement, to law enforcement dialogue.
06:19So there's been some progress on that, recognises issues of accountability.
06:23I extended the invitation to Prime Minister Modi in that context, and he has accepted.
06:34Canada's invite is a testament to India's rising global stature.
06:37But the opposition at home, especially the Congress, is not impressed.
06:41The party's media and publicity department in charge says, the Modi government's muscular foreign policy has collapsed under its own PR.
06:49The party's
07:19As Modi government completes eleven years in power, the BJP cites India's global leadership, its multilateralism and its emergence as a first responder in global crisis as a centre's big achievements.
07:49In the operation in Yemen, we took over 5,000 of our Indian citizens and with 41 nations, which were the other citizens, took over more than 1,000, took over more than 150 countries.
08:07In more than 150 countries, we have reached the vaccine, and we have tried to give up to 48 countries.
08:19From neighbourhood first to ACT East, and from strategic alignments with the West to standing firm with the Global South, India's foreign policy under Prime Minister Narendra Modi has witnessed a dramatic shift.
08:36Bureau Report, India Today.
08:38So, Narendra Modi has been described as India's rescuer-in-chief in the context of rescuing Indians in trouble overseas.
08:50The government is talking about the Prime Minister's adaptive strategy with the United States and diplomatic upgrade with France, again both in 2025.
08:57The Congress has hit right back saying, under Narendra Modi, India's global standing is actually crumbling.
09:04So, let's try and make sense of the achievements versus the challenges.
09:07Joining me on India first is Supriya Srinit, Chairperson Social Media and Digital Platforms, member of the Congress Working Committee.
09:15Rohan Gupta's national spokesperson of the BJP.
09:17Sushant Sarin is a senior fellow at the Observer Research Foundation.
09:20Professor Brahma Chalani is a very well-respected strategic affairs analyst and former advisor to India's National Security Council.
09:27Also with me is senior journalist and analyst Sandeep Unnithan.
09:31Rohan Gupta, Congress says under Narendra Modi, India's global standing is crumbling.
09:38They've given specific instances. Take for example, the IMF giving $1 billion to Pakistan on the 9th of May during Operation Sindur.
09:48World Bank deciding to give $40 billion to Pakistan soon after Operation Sindur.
09:54And the ADB pledging another $800 million again after Operation Sindur.
10:01Sahil, first of all, I think you should ask question to Congress Party about their stand.
10:11I think my voice is echoing. Can you just change it?
10:15Go on. Yeah. Go on, Rohan Gupta.
10:18Yeah. So, Sahil, after G7 statement of Canada Prime Minister, you can see the situation of Congress Party.
10:30They are… they were premature in criticizing. They could not wait.
10:34And I think now they should come out and apologize that why they spoke about something they should have waited for.
10:40And overall, if you see these 11 years, our policy has been independent, aggressive.
10:45It has to be… Hello?
10:48Go on, Rohan Gupta, Gaurav Savan, this side. Go on.
10:53My question to you, and I'll repeat my question in case you weren't able to hear me.
10:57India's global standing Congress Party says it's crumbling.
11:01G7 I'll come to in just a moment.
11:03But my question is, IMF pledging $1 billion to Pakistan.
11:08World Bank deciding to give $40 billion soon after Op Sindur.
11:12And ADB, the Congress has listed out all these points.
11:15$800 million again after Op Sindur, sir.
11:21Sahil, this is the problem with Congress Party.
11:23They keep on changing their goalposts every second day.
11:26Now, they have answered for G7, they will ask other questions.
11:29See, you have to see the overall picture, 11 years, where India has moved.
11:33Our policy of thinking West and acting East and connecting the Central Asia, it is working.
11:38You see the G20 presidency where we could cite the declaration by all the members.
11:43It's a big achievement.
11:44IMAC, India Middle East Economic, European Economic Corridor.
11:48So, these are the big achievements.
11:49So, Congress Party, they can keep on changing their goalposts.
11:52Every next day, they will ask different questions.
11:54As far as Pakistan is concerned, they should remember what they did on 26-11.
11:58They were begging for the statement of US condemning the Pakistan.
12:01They never acted on it.
12:02They were worried that if they act, something will happen.
12:05They were scared.
12:06They never had confidence on their own forces.
12:08And that's why the forces, they stopped the forces to act against Pakistan.
12:12And they are talking about us.
12:14Today, it is an independent and confident and aggressive foreign policy nobody can see at India.
12:19If you are going to attack our people, we will go into your dips and attack your military establishments.
12:26So, this is the difference.
12:27It is aggressive, independent.
12:29One more thing.
12:30You can see Ukraine-Russia war also.
12:32Or you can see Israel-Arab balance.
12:34We could, India could keep that balance properly without any kind of issues in foreign policy.
12:39So, India is moving ahead.
12:40After 11 years, India is not dependent on anybody.
12:43We are now independent.
12:44And we are in top five nations where nobody can grow.
12:47Funding to Pakistan remains illegal or a serious threat.
12:51Let me bring in Supriya Srinath.
12:53Let me bring in Supriya Srinath.
12:56Supriya, did the Congress jump the gun on the G7 invite?
13:00Just take a look at what Mark Carney said while extending that invitation to the Prime Minister.
13:05He said, and I want to quote, as chair of G7, it is important to invite the most important countries to attend the talk about important issues such as energy, artificial intelligence, critical mineral.
13:17And India is really at the very center of the global supply chains, madam.
13:23There is no denying that India is at the very center of all that supply chain.
13:30And I am not going to call you Sahil.
13:32I will continue to call you by your name, Gaurav Sawant.
13:34But first up, the invite came belatedly.
13:38Let the government not run away from the fact that the invite came belatedly.
13:42I am glad it has come.
13:43Because this is not about Mr. Modi's personal show.
13:47This is about India.
13:48I was aggrieved that India did not get an invite.
13:50I am glad the invite has come.
13:52It has come belatedly.
13:53And that embarrasses me.
13:54That upsets me as an Indian.
13:56But you have your show is about 11 years of foreign policy.
14:00And let me make some opening remarks before I go on to talk about that.
14:04Something was said about the G20 by the BJP spokesperson.
14:08G20 hosting is cyclical.
14:10You were supposed to get it two years back.
14:13You wanted to delay it to 2024.
14:14All right.
14:15No issues with that.
14:16But every member of the G20 is going to host that meeting because it's cyclical.
14:21Every member gets to do so.
14:23Because it's going to happen in Brazil now.
14:252611.
14:26That's the only thing I want to say before I move on to foreign policy.
14:29Don't you dare bring up 2611.
14:31Because after 2611, every perpetrator, every terrorist was hunted down.
14:38They were gunned down.
14:39They were arrested.
14:40And then hanged till death.
14:42The difference between 2611 and Pehelgaam today is that none of the terrorists of Pehelgaam terror attack have so far been arrested.
14:51It happened on the 22nd of April.
14:54Almost 50 days to that event.
14:56Reality is that Riyasi, where devotees were attacked in a bus.
15:01A year later, not a single arrest made.
15:04That's the difference.
15:05We hunted down terrorists and made them meet the maker.
15:08That's the first thing I want to say.
15:10And let's move on to 11 years of foreign policy.
15:12I want to make a rather big picture statement and more as an Indian and of course as a congresswoman here.
15:17In the last 11 years, we have seen foreign policy being replaced by photo ops.
15:23Diplomacy has been consistently replaced by photo ops.
15:27Diplomacy is not hugging.
15:29Diplomacy is not going and getting pictures clicked in a certain angle that you look strong.
15:33Diplomacy is that you put India's interests first.
15:36And I want to enumerate a few points that will establish what has happened.
15:41Let's talk about what has recently happened and then we will go further.
15:44And this is the last point I want to make and then I'm sure you will come back to me in the discussion.
15:48Operation Sindur is of course going to be successful because we have absolute faith in the valor and courage of our disciplined armed forces.
15:57They taught Pakistan and gave Pakistan a bloody blow.
16:00Mr. Modi decided to do a ceasefire.
16:03On what conditions, one does not know.
16:05That's the first point.
16:06The second point is, what happened thereafter?
16:08And where did our diplomacy fail?
16:10Pakistan gets an IMF loan and that IMF loan was given despite our resistance and not a single nation supported us against that loan.
16:19That's IMF.
16:20World Bank has decided to give a 40 billion dollar aid.
16:23ADB, Mr. Modi meets the ADB chief on the 1st of June.
16:26On the 3rd of June, 48 hours later, ADB decides to give Pakistan 800 million dollars.
16:32The biggest failure has been that Pakistan and India that were hyphenated after 26-11, Pakistan was seen as a dubious terror state, is now being dehyphenated.
16:45The US president speaks about Pakistan and India in the same breath.
16:49We cannot be spoken about in the same breath.
16:51We are a democracy.
16:52We are a strong country.
16:54Pakistan is a dying nation.
16:56It harbors terrorists.
16:57And the last point I want to make.
16:59Pakistan goes ahead and gets a chairmanship of Taliban in the UN Security Council.
17:04It gets, and so ironical, a terror state like Pakistan gets to get the vice chairmanship of the counter-terror committee.
17:13And we keep quiet.
17:14What happened to our influence in these multilateral agencies?
17:17We go to Kuwait on the 27th of May and on the 28th Kuwait lifts a 19-year ban on Pakistan visas.
17:24I mean somebody has to turn around and ask the question, what is happening to our diplomacy?
17:29I am sure we will talk about America, China, Maldives, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal in just a bit.
17:34I will come to them in just a moment.
17:36Step by step I will come to those points.
17:38Rohan you want to quickly respond before I bring in our strategic affairs analyst.
17:42I am 26-11.
17:43I will weigh in since I covered 26-11 as did Sandeep who was with me there.
17:48But quickly.
17:49So Gaurav, my apologies to you.
17:50Because I didn't have screen in front of me.
17:52No problem.
17:53I named you wrongly.
17:54Can you hear me Gaurav?
17:55Rose by another name will still smell sweet.
17:57So Gaurav chief, Congress party has no moral, you know, right to talk about Pakistan.
18:02This is the same Pakistan they surrendered POK in 1948.
18:06This is the same Pakistan they surrendered 80% of the Sindhu water in Sindhu industry.
18:11This is the same Pakistan they continued MFN status for the years.
18:15This is the same Pakistan in 1970 where even after, you know, arresting the 93,000 soldiers,
18:20they returned back and they never talk about POK.
18:22OK.
18:23What Pakistan they are talking about.
18:24We'll get back to the past in just a moment.
18:25But Supriya Srinath asked.
18:26After 26-11, they didn't have courage even to talk to Pakistan.
18:29They couldn't attack Pakistan.
18:31This is the mindset Pakistan entered that whatever we can do on India, India will never retaliate.
18:35You cannot talk on facts.
18:36That's your problem.
18:37And that is the answer Modi government gave.
18:38If you will try to see at India, look at India, we will make sure that you will be punished.
18:43That is the difference between our foreign policy today.
18:46That is the courage what we have shown.
18:48You know what, IMF loans, on IMF loans, OK.
18:52Supriya, quick 30-second interjection, ma'am, before I bring in our specialist.
18:57Supriya, go on, ma'am.
18:58I don't want to take unnecessary time.
18:59The entire opposition.
19:00Sir, it's my turn to speak.
19:01Mr. Gupta, it's my turn to speak.
19:02My name is Supriya.
19:03Please ask him to keep quiet.
19:04Rohan Gupta, 30 seconds.
19:05Supriya is quickly responding.
19:06Before I bring in our strategic affairs analyst.
19:07Sir, my question to you was about IMF loans, but go on, Supriya, you wanted to respond.
19:22I just want to say one thing, and that one thing is crystal clear.
19:29The reality is that the government, that the opposition, a united opposition, and the entire country was with you.
19:37Why did you call a ceasefire?
19:39You should have got back the P.O.K.
19:41Why did you not do that?
19:42Please don't speak in between.
19:43Supriya is my name.
19:44Hopefully not your name so far.
19:46OK.
19:47OK.
19:48Supriya.
19:49Hold on.
19:50What is this?
19:51Rohan, give me a moment.
19:52Rohan, hold on.
19:53Hold on.
19:54Hold on.
19:55Hold on.
19:56I want only Sushant Sareen on the screen for a moment, please.
19:57Sushant Sareen, whether it's Turkey or Azerbaijan or China, they strongly stand with Pakistan.
20:03Is there merit in the Congress saying India's global standing is crumbling the way funds are being pledged to Pakistan, whether it's IMF, ADB, and the World Bank?
20:15No, I think, look, you can politicize whatever you want to politicize.
20:20The IMF program was not sanctioned post-Op Sindur.
20:25It's an ongoing program.
20:27They'd already got the first tranche.
20:29They were going to get the second tranche, which was already approved.
20:33It just had to be rubber scrammed by the board when India started raising objections.
20:38And I think the objections we raised were mostly political.
20:41And frankly, the decisions were not going to be taken on political lines because we simply don't have the kind of numbers we need to stop it.
20:49It would have been taken on economic parameters.
20:52And it's not, Gaurav, incidentally, it's not as though this is the first time the Pakistanis have got an IMF loan.
20:59Even after 2008, after the 2611 attacks, which Supriya very correctly says that, you know, India and Pakistan was almost treated like a pariah nation.
21:09Pakistan got at least two or three IMF bailouts.
21:14You know, Pakistan has been getting World Bank assistance for the last 80 years, despite its dubious record.
21:22And what the Pakistanis have got this time, it's not $40 billion.
21:26You know, that's a dumping down of the figure.
21:28What they've actually got is a $20 billion 10-year program.
21:32It's called a country support program or something to that effect.
21:35It's a 10-year program, which basically means they get about $1.8 to $2 billion a year for projects.
21:43And that is what that program is.
21:45It's for 10 years because the World Bank said that, you know, normally we used to have a three-year program.
21:50It wasn't good enough.
21:52Now, we have a much more perspective kind of a thing.
21:54Now, if $2 billion a year is going to save Pakistan, good luck to them.
21:58Third, even the ADB program, these are not negotiations which happen overnight.
22:04Supriya has been an economic journalist and a very distinguished one at that.
22:08She certainly knows how these programs operate.
22:11So, that is as far as the multilateral institutions are concerned.
22:14On the ceasefire, Gaurav, I think it's very clear.
22:17And again, look, they have the right to do whatever politics they want to do.
22:21But I think it was very clear from a strategic angle.
22:23There was a specific purpose behind Operation Sindhuur.
22:28It was to hit the bases, number one.
22:30Number two, it was to dominate the escalation ladder.
22:33We did both.
22:34Nobody was saying that we are now going to go and wage a complete all-out war on Pakistan and capture POK, etc., etc.
22:44That was not the plan of the operation.
22:47That was not the objective of the operation.
22:49And because you notched up astounding successes,
22:54to then extend the operation would have meant that you get enmeshed into a quagmire, into a war,
23:04which you had not prepared for in the very first instance.
23:07So, I think it was a sensible decision to not prolong the conflict more than what we wanted to do.
23:14That is the reality.
23:17People are free to do whatever politics they want to do.
23:20It's a free country.
23:21Oh, absolutely.
23:22But Professor Chilani, our campaign to isolate Pakistan,
23:25that seems to be hitting one air pocket after the other.
23:28You know, funds being pledged to Pakistan, China blocking the naming of attackers at the United Nations,
23:33Pakistan's fair probe demand being backed by countries like Iran, Turkey, Malaysia.
23:37Is that a setback for us, Professor Chilani?
23:40Is this the first time that is happening?
23:43Okay. Fair enough.
23:46Professor Chilani?
23:48Well, the fact is that Operation Sindhuur has highlighted the fact
23:53that India's fight against cross-border terrorism is a lonely fight.
23:58Look at the United States.
24:01The Trump administration, till date, has not even mentioned the core issue that triggered this crisis,
24:09trans-border terrorism.
24:11Not just Trump.
24:13Has anybody in his administration mentioned cross-border terrorism as an issue?
24:20Why?
24:22Why?
24:23Even when the Indian parliamentarians went to Washington recently and met the Vice President Vance
24:32and the Deputy Secretary of State, the U.S. statements did not mention cross-border terrorism.
24:41The question is why?
24:43Why?
24:44After all, Prime Minister Modi has invested considerable political capital in building good relations with Washington.
24:53Hmm.
24:54So, why wasn't that investment delivered at a critical time?
25:04Is that failure of Indian diplomacy? What's your take on it?
25:07My take?
25:08Yes.
25:09See, on the larger picture, international, India's international profile and geopolitical weight
25:17are clearly rising.
25:18There's no doubt about that.
25:20The fact is that under three successive prime ministers, India has been rising.
25:26And India's foreign policy has two defining features.
25:31First, it's shown of ideology.
25:34And two, because it's non-ideological, it's pragmatic.
25:39And also, India's foreign policy is, you know, one defining—our third feature is balance.
25:48India's emphasis on pursuing a balanced foreign policy is apparent from its membership of rival
25:53multilateral groupings.
25:55It's a member of the US-led Quad, but it's also a member of BRICS and the Shanghai Cooperation
26:00Organization.
26:01But the problem is this, that instead of learning lessons from the experiences of his predecessors,
26:08Prime Minister Modi has sought to reinvent the foreign policy wheel.
26:12He went to Pakistan as a peacemaker, landing unannounced in Lahore in 2015.
26:19Yes.
26:20Similarly, he spent the first five years of his prime ministership seeking to build personal
26:26rapport with Xi Jinping, holding 18 separate meetings with Xi Jinping.
26:32And we know what's the outcome of those meetings.
26:35So the question that we need to ask ourselves is, why does every successive prime minister
26:41in India seek to reinvent the foreign policy wheel?
26:45Why don't we learn from the experiences of previous governments?
26:49Why is it that every prime minister who takes office seeks to, you know, believes that he can make peace
26:54with Pakistan and with China and seeks to reinvent the foreign policy wheel?
26:59And these experiments are at the cost of the nation.
27:04That point taken entirely.
27:07Sandeep Unithan, before I bring in Supriya and Rohan, once again I want to bring in Sandeep
27:11for his opening comments.
27:12Sandeep, our neighborhood first policy too has hit multiple air pockets.
27:17And Congress is giving details.
27:19Maldives turned hostile.
27:20India out pro-China pivot.
27:22Nepal redrawing its map, claiming Indian territory.
27:25Sri Lanka and Maldives leasing strategic assets to China.
27:27I mean, in a way, you and I may understand they may be cutting their nose to spite their face
27:32and yet they do.
27:34Absolutely, Gaurav.
27:35You know, I think the problem here is that never in our history, possibly of the last 5,000 years,
27:41have we had a superpower at our doorstep.
27:44And this is a superpower that has started to bear its fangs only very recently, Gaurav,
27:49in the last decade or so.
27:51Before that, everything was fine.
27:52Xi Jinping took over in 2012, 2013.
27:55There are two sides to Xi Jinping.
27:58There is, of course, the side of him as the head of the Central Military Commission.
28:03He wears a military uniform.
28:04The other side of him is the apparatchik who wears a business suit.
28:10There are two very distinct sides to him.
28:12And I think we looked at only one side.
28:14We tried to do business with a business suit side, forgetting that he was the first leader
28:21since Mao Zedong to wear a military uniform and appear in public.
28:27And he has bared his fangs.
28:29He's declared his intent that he plans to be the number one power in the world very soon.
28:34And I think that is the kind of attendant challenges that we have been seeing in our neighborhood, Gaurav,
28:40with the kind of, you know, the muscling in on Ladakh in the last five years,
28:46which India has stood up to.
28:48But we have paid a price for that.
28:51To understand this, as Professor Chalani was saying, that we go with all of these countries in good faith
28:57and we end up getting betrayed, stabbed in the back.
29:00You know, Professor Chalani made a very important point.
29:02We need to learn from mistakes of our predecessors and build on consolidating instead of trying to reinvent the wheel.
29:09But Rohan Gupta, Supriya Srinath raised a fair point.
29:12Pakistan is now the chair of UNSC Taliban sanctions committee and the vice-chair.
29:17Imagine, it's like devil reading the scriptures.
29:19Pakistan is the vice-chair of counter-terrorism committee.
29:22And this happened after Opsundur.
29:24China is blocking our attempts to get pehelgam attackers named.
29:28Opposition says, what's the point of India's global outreach when no country, no country, as Professor Chalani rightly pointed out,
29:37is willing to call out Pakistan state-sponsored radical Islamist terror, sir?
29:45See, absolutely not.
29:46I think, Gaurav, I don't agree with your statement.
29:48After Opposition Shindir, each and every country except two countries we know,
29:54I think they supported India's beat against terrorism.
29:57And I think one of the panelists rightly told that we were very clear from day one in our objective,
30:02that objective of the operations in there is to ensure that the terrorist things in Pakistan are destroyed.
30:08That's what we did.
30:09And we were very clear.
30:10Our NSA clearly told that if Pakistan will not retail it, we will stop.
30:14So I think the kind of politics which Congress parties are indulging,
30:17they say,
30:19The biggest failure of Indian history in diplomacy is 2611 where India could not have courage even to attack Pakistan.
30:34What are you talking about? Which country was standing with us?
30:37And today we know what is the nexus of China and Pakistan.
30:40That is what we are attacking today.
30:42When I started my debate, I started with India Middle East European Economic Corridor.
30:48I think that is the biggest achievement of G20 declaration.
30:51And that is what India is moving forward.
30:53So we need to understand, yes, definitely we have to learn from the mistakes.
30:56That is what we have done.
30:57We have made our diplomacy aggressive.
30:59We have made our diplomacy independent.
31:01That is what is happening today.
31:02Our diplomacy today is independent and aggressive.
31:05We are not under pressure of anybody.
31:07And I think Trump, whose statement Congress party is referring,
31:11why they are forgetting Donald Trump's first day statement that he said that I will not interfere.
31:16Then there was no question.
31:17This was the same Trump who told that to remove Mr. Modi, to defeat Mr. Modi.
31:21Can I please comment?
31:2220 million dollars was spent in India by US.
31:24Yes, in a moment.
31:25No question by Congress party.
31:26Please don't speak in between.
31:27Let me complete.
31:28Gaurav, let me complete.
31:29I know she will become jittery.
31:30But you need to understand that Congress party has no right to ask questions to BJP.
31:34We have ensured that our diplomacy today is above Pakistan.
31:37And that is the reason what objective we had to achieve about Operation Sindhur.
31:41We achieved and we moved forward.
31:43Fair enough.
31:44But in a democracy, the opposition must ask questions and must be free to ask as many questions
31:51and as many times as they want to.
31:53But Supriya Srinet, you know, some in the Congress may believe India is strategically isolated,
31:58but that's clearly not true, ma'am.
32:00Look at the invitation to the Prime Minister for G7.
32:03Quad will be hosted in India this year, this summit.
32:05G20 was successfully hosted by India, which incidentally the outcomes included,
32:10you know, as IMEC pointed out by Rohan Gupta.
32:13But if I may, inclusion of African Union into the G20.
32:17India is seen as a very powerful voice of the developing world, the global south.
32:21The Prime Minister, again something that global leaders are talking about,
32:25is one of those rare heads of government with access both to Russia and to Ukraine.
32:30How does that show that India's clout is crumbling?
32:34India's clout is actually, as you heard all our analysts argue, is actually growing, ma'am.
32:39And nobody is saying India's clout is not growing.
32:45India's diplomacy is failing us every single day.
32:48You answered your own question.
32:49You said we have equal access to Ukraine and Russia.
32:52Did Russia issue one?
32:54Did it issue one single statement in our favour, denouncing what Pakistan does?
33:00Denouncing the fact that park train and park-bred terrorists have consistently been attacking our people,
33:07have consistently been violating our peace and have killed 26 innocent civilians in Pehelgaam.
33:14Did Russia issue one statement?
33:16I will ask you another question.
33:17We are talking about America and we are talking about, you know, it was said here, we are very aggressive.
33:22What is our aggression worth it if Donald Trump not once but twelve times says,
33:26I got the ceasefire because of the trade deal and he is consistently naming Prime Minister Modi.
33:31He is saying Mr. Modi and Shahbaz Sharif are great leaders.
33:34I don't like my Prime Minister to be spoken about in the same breath as a nobody like Shahbaz Sharif.
33:39But the Prime Minister is absolutely quiet about it.
33:41And let me tell you, U.S. is not just saying that twelve times.
33:45U.S. sent our people handcuffed in military planes, something that they did not do for a lot of countries.
33:50682 Indians.
33:51U.S. has been threatening us with tariffs.
33:53U.S. called India an abuser, fraud and waster in the presence of Mr. Narendra Modi.
33:58The reality today is that U.S. is doing deals with Turkey that provided ammunition and drones to Pakistan that mapped and attacked us.
34:06I want to ask a simple question. Your aggressive so-called foreign policy, what is it bringing to us?
34:12China is holding its control and strengthening its control over Nepal, over Sri Lanka, over Bangladesh, over Myanmar, over Maldives.
34:20And we are seeing it country after country.
34:22The reality is you want to talk about the Global South? Let's talk about the Global South.
34:26Have you heard the Prime Minister or the Foreign Minister even spell out what is the vision for the Global South?
34:34Have you heard any of them? And I want to ask one more thing.
34:37That one thing that is being said here is disturbing me a little.
34:40As an Indian.
34:41It's being said here, Operation Sindur had a limited purpose.
34:44That purpose was achieved and which is why the ceasefire was called.
34:47It's another thing that twelve times Donald Trump is challenging our sovereignty by saying so and we are not challenging him openly.
34:53The Prime Minister should rebuke him and should stop saying that.
34:55But the Prime Minister is not doing that.
34:57But if I were to believe that Operation Sindur had a limited role and the ceasefire was called strategically, let me ask you a counter question.
35:05When you did Operation Sindur, did you not think that Pakistan which breds people like Masood Azhar and Hafiz Saeed and Daw Debrahim and Osama bin Laden will not retaliate?
35:16Why did you not evacuate places in Punch?
35:19Twenty-six innocent civilians lost life in Pehelgaam and sixteen innocent civilians, which includes children, just twelve years of age, lost life in Punch.
35:27Who is responsible for that?
35:29Why should I not ask this question?
35:31The reality is when your foreign minister tells in a television or an agency interview that we are a smaller economy and China is a weaker economy, how am I going to fight with them?
35:40You see what's happening. You ban their apps, but you do trade with them worth hundred billion dollars of trade deficit.
35:46The reality is that Galwan has almost been forgotten.
35:49It looks like twenty of our brave hearts never sacrificed their life.
35:52What have we done with China? We have every year increased our trade with China and increased our trade deficit.
35:58You've raised two very pertinent points. This is the foreign policy failure.
36:01I'm going to get Rohan and Sushant Sarin to respond.
36:04It's not about…
36:05Rohan Gupta quickly respond to the point that she's raised.
36:09It's not about one mass image.
36:10Since you specifically raised the issue of strategic ops sindur, that was a point raised by Sushant Sarin.
36:16He'll respond to that, but Rohan Gupta quickly respond.
36:22See, first of all, Gaurav, this is the problem with Congress party and that's why they have completely lost the narrative as far as
36:27Operation Sindur is. They have been changing their goalposts every day.
36:30They have been changing their questions.
36:32The point here is you are asking questions about Operation Sindur, about Donald Trump's statement,
36:37but you are not ready to believe your own DGMO who says on 11th of May that on 3.35 PM,
36:44Pakistan DGMO calls him and requests him to stop the action, military action.
36:49And we agreed to that.
36:51Why they are not ready to believe that?
36:53Why they are…
36:54Please, I never spoke in between.
36:56Gaurav, Gaurav.
36:57Why she's speaking?
36:58Why you are speaking in between?
36:59I never spoke in between.
37:00I never spoke in between.
37:02Why you are becoming frustrated?
37:03Mr. Gupta, complete your point, sir.
37:04I never interrupted her.
37:05Why she's not ready to understand?
37:06Absolutely, complete your point, sir.
37:07The point here is this is the basic problem.
37:10They are not ready to believe our army.
37:12That is the main problem.
37:14And you tell me in any government, Gaurav.
37:16You will question your foreign minister saying that…
37:18We believe in the army.
37:19We don't believe you.
37:20You are a bunch of liars.
37:21We believe in the army.
37:22They could not even justify.
37:23They could not even justify.
37:24We believe in our forces.
37:25That is the problem.
37:26We don't believe you.
37:27This is the problem.
37:28They could not even justify.
37:29You are not the army.
37:30You are not this country.
37:31At the beginning of the Operation Sindur, they are questioning our…
37:33Please.
37:34Why are you making a mistake?
37:35Let Rohan Gupta complete his point.
37:37Only Rohan Gupta, please.
37:38Only Rohan Gupta.
37:39Only Rohan Gupta complete his point, sir.
37:40The whole country is watching you.
37:41Why is she becoming jittery?
37:44I am answering.
37:45I heard her properly.
37:46Be aram se.
37:47Jara gusa mat voye.
37:48Point here is, Gaurav.
37:50When you question…
37:51Definitely, I am answering your question.
37:52You have all the rights to ask the question to the government.
37:55But you must understand in asking the question, what are you doing?
37:58If you are questioning your foreign minister, saying that you have given information to Pakistan in advance.
38:04Do you feel that anybody will buy this argument, Gaurav?
38:07They are making mockery of themselves.
38:09Definitely, you ask what has happened to India.
38:11But you have to understand one thing, that we have won against Pakistan in operations.
38:15We should be all united.
38:16It is about your own image.
38:18You cannot keep on changing your goalposts every day.
38:20You are questioning our army every day.
38:22That is the problem with India today.
38:24You will be wiped off with this kind of narrative.
38:26Whatever arguments you make, there can be improvements.
38:29There can be suggestions.
38:30There can be questions to government.
38:32But those questions cannot be at a level where your opposition, where your enemy takes advantage of this.
38:38If this simple argument is understood by so-called media chairman or the media people of the Congress party, they will not focus on yourselves.
38:45I want to make a point about limited objectives of Operation Sindhud, they were met.
38:49I think, Gaurav, I need to make a point.
38:50This is about BJP versus the Congress.
38:52Allow me to make a point, please.
38:54Ma'am, since you also raised a point.
38:55Please allow me to make a point.
38:56Sure, quickly make a point.
38:58Just a very small point I want to make.
39:03I want to ask you a simple question.
39:06In a democracy, we are raising questions.
39:09Don't you dare presume that you are this country or you are our armed forces.
39:13You are the BJP, you are in the government.
39:16You are not this nation, you are not our armed forces.
39:19Mr. Gupta, please let us complete a point.
39:20Mr. Gupta, please let us complete a point.
39:22If you want to respect our armed forces, you are asking questions to our army.
39:26Don't you dare ask questions to our army.
39:29You play your politics.
39:30Don't you dare ask questions to our army.
39:32You will not leave me.
39:34Mr. Gupta, I did not let Ms. Srinath interrupt you, sir.
39:40Let us complete a point.
39:42Let us complete a point.
39:43And I want to bring in our other guests also.
39:45Okay, Ms. Srinath, complete your point, ma'am.
39:49If you really respect our armed forces, throw out that man, Vijay Shah,
39:54who called our most decorated and brave, Colonel Sophia Qureshi, the sister of terrorists.
39:59Throw out Jagdish Devda, who's the deputy chief minister of Maharashtra,
40:03who says the Indian armed forces are lying at the feet of the prime minister.
40:08Unless you don't take action against these two people and multiple others in your party,
40:12don't you dare talk about the armed forces, because India's valiant armed forces,
40:17if they had been given a free hand, would have wiped out Pakistan from the face of this earth.
40:21They divided Pakistan into two in 1971.
40:24This is what you have been questioning for years.
40:25We gave Pakistan a bloody nose in 1999.
40:27Why did you call for a ceasefire?
40:29That's the question we are asking.
40:30That's the question we are asking.
40:31That's the question we are asking.
40:32I want to bring in Sushant Sarin and Brahma Chalani and Sandeep Odithan on the strategic point of that ceasefire.
40:38Sushant Sarin, Supriya Srinath had a point about why call a ceasefire when you're ahead in this battle.
40:45And if you did, why weren't people in Uri and Punsh evacuated before those RT duels started?
40:52Okay, Gaurav, I think we need to be very clear about one thing.
40:57India is a democracy.
40:58And in a democracy, and I disagree with Mr. Gupta, you can ask questions of the armed forces.
41:06I don't see any reason why you cannot ask questions.
41:09Absolutely.
41:10There are not any holy cow in India.
41:13And very clearly, at the same time, I have to say that decisions of war and peace are not going to be made by the armed forces.
41:23They have no business of making decisions of war and peace.
41:26Those decisions have to be made by the political leadership of the country.
41:30Right or wrong, that decision has to be made by them.
41:33So, yes, the armed forces' input can be taken.
41:36But at the end of the day, it's the political leadership that has to decide when to go to war and when to stop the war and when not to get enmeshed in an endless conflict.
41:46That is the way democracies operate.
41:48On the most substantive question which Supriya had raised, I think the problem is that she's only looking at this one particular episode.
41:59This has been a regular problem in Jammu and Kashmir along the line of control that whenever artillery duels start happening, you cannot evacuate full towns.
42:12It's not the first time there are artillery duels taking place across the line of control. They've happened in the past.
42:17Now, there are some areas, especially places like Uri, which is in a bowl, Punj for that matter, a couple of other areas along the line of control where the Pakistanis are able to target our civilians.
42:30And then you pay them back in the same coin. There is no way that you can evacuate an entire town or completely protect it from an artillery duel.
42:41Surely, you know, if Supriya was to study what has happened in the past, she would realize that is how things work out.
42:48And finally, allow me, Gaurav, one small point.
42:51You know, on this…
42:52When you have a military retaliation…
42:54Did some other country stand with us?
42:56The point is that, you know, we have ourselves taken a position that we are not going to get involved in any other war.
43:02So, while we did not criticize Russia, did we say that whatever Russia is doing is correct?
43:09While we did not, you know, completely back the Ukrainians, did we say that, you know, we are against what Russia is doing in Ukraine?
43:19We did. We took a middle path. The same thing we have done, for example, in Gaza. The same thing we do everywhere.
43:25If what we do is what other countries are doing, how are we giving again? You know, sir…
43:32I don't see why. We don't need crutches of any other countries right now is my take on this.
43:37But that's a separate story for another time. But, Professor Chalani, despite Quad, China continues to deepen ties with Pakistan, with Nepal, with Maldives, blocking India at the UN.
43:48And how do you read this? And the kind of support one would have thought would come from Quad partners when a fellow Quad partner is facing Pakistan state-sponsored radical Islamist terror.
43:59That clearly is not happening. Or the intervention that's happening from a fellow Quad partner in a country like Bangladesh would really indicate that Quad may not be as united as anti-India blocs are.
44:15Well, first, the regional situation for India is becoming more adverse to India's core interests, despite India's neighbourhood-first policy. There is no doubt about that.
44:30And this should cause great concern to us that our neighbourhood is becoming more and more combustible, more and more hostile to Indian interests. This is something we need to start addressing.
44:43But on the larger issue of the ceasefire, Gaurav, the outcome of any military operation should be such that it should speak for itself. The outcome should be unquestionable.
44:58There would be no need to stage roadshows or to make statements that we had won. The outcome should be such that it speaks for itself.
45:10We gave Pakistan 15 days notice that we are going to launch military strikes. So what did Pakistan do? It showed up its defences. It emptied its terrorist camps.
45:24So when we struck, when we struck on day one, military doctrine is clear that for an air war to be effective, you have to first take out the enemy's air defences.
45:40Yes.
45:41That's the first principle of air war. But what did we do? We know. We decided at the political level that we will only strike terrorist camps in Pakistan.
45:53Only after we lost some war planes and only after Pakistan hit our military facilities did our armed forces get the permission to strike air defences and military facilities in Pakistan.
46:10But on day three morning, as you have reported several times, in a 23-minute operation, India devastated a string of Pakistani air defences. And yet, just a few hours later, India accepted a ceasefire.
46:28So the question that many are asking, many are asking this question, why did India suddenly abruptly accept the ceasefire?
46:39What prompted India at the political level to accept a ceasefire just when Indian armed forces had gained the upper hand militarily?
46:50That question, Gaurav, will not go away. Historians will ask that question. It's not a political, a partisan political question. It's a question that goes to the core of why we launched Operation Sindhuur.
47:04If we are going to end Operation Sindhuur, seize Operation Sindhuur after three days, Gaurav, we would have been better off not launching it.
47:15We could have actually exerted more pressure on Pakistan by keeping the military threat alive and exerting pressure on Pakistan instead of launching an operation.
47:26Sir, but bombing between you and I, between you and I, and I want to bring in Sandeep, Professor Chalani, bombing 13 of his air bases and radar stations that you've never done in the past is spectacular.
47:38That's a spectacular achievement. Bombing him in Muridke and Bahawalpur, that's never been done in the past. Sandeep, you know, while I completely agree with most of the points you're making, this is a point, you know, this is something which has been absolutely spellbinding in India's war on radical Islamist terror.
47:57We've never done it before. Bombing him from Skardu to Bulari Sandeep.
48:01Absolutely, Gaurav. You know, and in fact, Operation Sindhuur should be seen in that light, Gaurav. We've crossed a Rubicon that we did in 1998 with the nuclear tests of Pokhran.
48:11And I think that Operation Sindhuur is another Rubicon that we've crossed when it comes to securing India's strategic interests.
48:19The fact is that for four decades, we've been threatened by this nuclear blackmail that Pakistan has unleashed on us.
48:25Pakistan has come in. They've attacked Mumbai in 1993. They've killed 270 Mumbaikars.
48:31In 2006, they massacred 202 Mumbaikars. In 2611, they killed 166 Mumbaikars. We never responded even once inside Pakistan.
48:43Now, with Operation Sindhuur, what has happened, Gaurav, is that that supersonic missile blizzard that was launched on the 10th of May,
48:52that was basically payback for all of the terrorism that Pakistan has inflicted on us for the last three or four decades.
48:59And with that, we've come to something like what you can call a Modi doctrine,
49:03where the Prime Minister has very clearly said we are not going to be blackmailed by nuclear threats anymore.
49:08And the fact is that, you know, any war, any attack on India, any terror attack on India is going to be seen as a war against India.
49:16And there will be no distinction between the state and the non-state, Gaurav. These are three very important percepts.
49:22And this is as significant as what we said after Pokhran in 1998 on how we are going to use nuclear weapons.
49:29Will it work? Is that big debate. Will it work?
49:33Well, it has to. As the Israelis say, Gaurav, you have to keep mowing the grass every few years.
49:37You have to keep mowing the grass. This will buy you a few years of peace.
49:40And then you have to keep doing it because...
49:42I have sadly, gentlemen and ladies, run out of time on this part of the show.
49:45But I'd love to have all of you back on the show with me very soon.
49:48But as I take a break and thank all of you for joining me, I just want to say one thing.
49:52It's actually a civilizational thing in our country.
49:55Remember, when Abhimanyu was killed, Arjun took that pledge, I will kill Jaiadrat either by sundown or I will die.
50:03Or when Bhim said, I will either break Duryodhan's eye or I will, you know, not consider this war over.
50:12Similarly, not taking down the enemy's air defences and only targeting enemy terror stations.
50:18Let's not bind ourselves in all these pledges. It's a civilizational thing.
50:22Don't do it. As Yogeshwar Shri Krishna said, when you have to kill the enemy,
50:26Yudhai Krith Nishchaya and destroy the enemy.
50:30Do not tie yourself in pledges the way Arjun did for Jaiadratwad.
50:34Because every time there will not be a Yogeshwar Shri Krishna who will come and bail you out of that situation.
50:39That is all I have for you on India First this evening. Many thanks for watching.