Branhamism in New Zealand: Escape From A Message Cult - With Stephanie Bailey - Our Stories - 350 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/branham   Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts: https://william-branham.org/podcast   Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K  John invites Stephanie to share her journey of growing up in a religious group in New Zealand that followed the teachings of William Branham. They begin by discussing Stephanie’s family history—her grandparents helped establish a Branham-affiliated church, giving her a kind of spiritual “royalty” status in the local community. She recounts the strict lifestyle they followed: homeschooling, long skirts, message books everywhere, and frequent services. The conversation highlights the cultural isolation felt by children growing up in these churches, including comparisons to exclusive groups like the Exclusive Brethren.  As the discussion continues, John and Stephanie delve into the contradictions and double standards within the movement. They talk about how church leaders and inner-circle families often lived differently from the strict standards they imposed on others—owning TVs, celebrating holidays, and permitting dress and grooming choices that were preached against. Stephanie shares her own story of being subtly targeted in sermons after cutting her hair at age 12 and her growing realization, especially during high school, that she was part of a group that she no longer believed in. The conversation ends with practical advice for others trying to rebuild their lives after leaving, emphasizing the importance of meeting new people, discovering personal interests, and building a life outside the constraints of controlling belief systems.  00:00 Introduction 02:11 Growing Up as Message Royalty in New Zealand 06:12 Cultural Isolation and Message Traditions 09:00 Christmas, Double Standards, and Cult Elites 13:17 The Cloud Controversy and Doctrinal Collapse 17:02 Favoritism, Shunning, and Emotional Control 20:04 Sunday School, Jezebel Sermon, and Appearance Policing 24:18 Photographs Reveal Cult Hypocrisy 27:05 Marriage, Divorce, and Message Misogyny 30:57 Billy Paul’s Divorce and the Origin of the Doctrine 34:42 Global Spread of Message Polygamy 39:01 Stephanie’s Journey Out of the Message 44:46 The Changing Culture of Her Former Church 49:42 Advice for Survivors Leaving the Message  ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:37I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:41at william-branham.org.

00:43And with me, I have my very special guest, Stephanie Bailey, former member of The Message from New Zealand.

00:50Stephanie, it's good to have you and to talk about all things message-related.

00:54And I'm very curious to talk about some of the differences between what I grew up in and the main sect

01:00and what was going on in New Zealand.

01:02So I'm very excited to have you on and talk to that.

01:05Maybe if you could start by just telling everybody a little bit about yourself.

01:09Hi, John. It's very good to be here today.

01:12So I'm Stephanie.

01:13I grew up in Taranaki, a little place called New Plymouth.

01:18With my parents, I have always been in The Message, but my grandparents, my dad's parents,

01:25actually helped start the first church in New Plymouth.

01:29I don't really know too much of the history around who started what in other parts of New Zealand.

01:36But yeah, my paternal grandparents, they started, helped start the church up in New Plymouth that I grew up in.

01:42Awesome. So your family is message royalty from New Zealand, families who helped start the church.

01:49Everybody knows them. Everybody recognizes them.

01:52So in many ways, you're similar to me, but in New Zealand.

01:57Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

01:58I would say that everyone knows the Taranaki church and everyone knows my parents and the pastors there.

02:05So yeah, I would say it's royalty.

02:07I can imagine. Everybody recognizes you. So tell me a little bit about what it was like growing up in New Plymouth and The Message.

02:15It's very interesting. We didn't go to school for too long, like public school. We were homeschooled.

02:23I think I went to three years of primary school and then I was homeschooled.

02:27So it's always very much like the weird kid. We had long skirts, long hair, all of that sort of stuff.

02:34We weren't allowed to cut our hair, no earrings. So we'd be definitely like the weird kids growing up.

02:39Even in school in the winter, turn up in long skirts, not even, usually wouldn't even wear stockings to school.

02:46Church Wednesday, Sunday, then potentially on a Sunday evening, every now and then we'd have communion and foot washing.

02:54I assume that's normal, communion and foot washing for everybody.

02:56That grew up in The Message, but yeah, I don't really remember too much.

03:03I just always really remember being that weird kid and mum and dad were pretty into it.

03:08They still very much are. None of us kids are still there, but yeah, I feel like it was okay when we were little kids.

03:16But then once we got into our rebellious phase, questioned everything, then it started becoming like real difficult.

03:26And that's when mum and dad fought back with us.

03:29And yeah, it was, it was, yeah, it's always the weird kid.

03:35I don't know.

03:36That's how I felt growing up and I never felt like I belonged anywhere.

03:39And we always, we were always compared to Exclusive Brethren as well.

03:46I think I've heard you guys talk about them quite a bit on the podcast.

03:50We had a bunch of Exclusive Brethren live up the road from us, actually.

03:53And everyone would be like, oh, are you just like one of them?

03:56And we were like, no, we're non-denominational.

04:00And I don't even know what that means, the kid.

04:04But yeah, message books everywhere in the house.

04:07My mum and dad, they had at least three or four shelves just full of transcripted message

04:17books from Brother Brandon's church.

04:20That was a big one growing up.

04:23I don't know if you remember, if you've ever heard of this, but have you ever heard of the

04:27Family Altar book that was written by Cloverdart?

04:30No.

04:30It was like a 365-day book.

04:35And somebody, I can't remember who wrote it, but it was written by a Cloverdart Bible way.

04:40And they did like a, they took something or a scripture from the Bible and then they matched

04:47it to whatever William Brenham said.

04:49And mum and dad would sit at the breakfast table every morning and read one a day from us.

04:54So that was very, very interesting.

04:59Yeah, those message books were everywhere for me growing up.

05:02Both grandparents on both sides of my family had them.

05:05One of my grandfathers had this big special cabinet that was completely specially made to

05:12hold these books.

05:13And then it had little slots for cassette tapes.

05:15And on the doors as they would open, it would be pictures of William Branham and an eagle

05:21and all kinds of message relic stuff.

05:25It kind of reminded you if you went to an altar by some, I don't know, somebody who does like

05:32family, dead family worship, maybe in Mexico or some of those different sects.

05:37This was the shrine that they went to and got their message books.

05:41And I read through those constantly and I listened to the recordings constantly.

05:47So I was like you, I was a little bit different too.

05:51I did go to public school, but you know, you're trained to isolate yourself.

05:56So even though I was there, I wasn't really there, if that makes any sense.

06:00Yeah.

06:01Yeah.

06:01No, it's very hard to relate to the kids in your classrooms because you're so different

06:08and you have all these weird thoughts and they're like, they're excited about Santa Claus.

06:13And you're like, Santa's not real.

06:15It's a made up holiday.

06:17Even though we celebrated Christmas, I know a lot of people in the church didn't.

06:21Specifically, the ones who come from South Africa, I don't know why.

06:25Most, yeah, I think that some of them do now.

06:29But yeah, you're talking about that eagle picture.

06:34I think we had one of those in our house.

06:35We definitely, we've got a picture of Jesus.

06:38Everyone has that picture of Jesus in their house.

06:41There definitely was the eagle at church.

06:43I think there might have even been a picture of William Branham at church as well.

06:46And I know that there used to be, in the pastor's office, there was like probably every book

06:51that they had.

06:54The, what was it?

06:55The Revelations books.

06:58What was, I can't remember what they were called.

07:00Yeah.

07:00And his life story, I read those numerous times.

07:06They always, they always fascinated me.

07:09And I just remember when I first started listening to your podcast and I was like, oh my God, like

07:15no, this is true.

07:17I already had my suspicions that it was, you know, a cult.

07:20But then when I started listening and you guys put up those evidence and I was like, wow,

07:25that like really makes so much sense to like everything.

07:29And yeah, I don't know.

07:30It was actually insane to hear about it because I'd grown up obviously thinking, I mean, even

07:36though I left the church so long ago, I never really put two and two together.

07:41I just thought he's probably not a bad person.

07:45Everyone at church was just a bit extreme.

07:49But yeah, and then I kind of delved into it and I was like, yeah, no, I grew up in a cult.

07:54And I never, I never really thought it would be anything like Jehovah Witness or Exclusive

07:59Brethren, but it really is.

08:01It is one of a kind and everybody is, yeah, they all isolate themselves.

08:07They don't, you, I don't really feel like a lot of them have friends outside church.

08:10You do have the odd people that are very much out in the community and are actually not

08:16so strict, but yeah, no, it is so interesting.

08:20Like when you grow up, when you actually become an adult, you really think about these things

08:24and you're like, oh, I really did grow up in a cult.

08:27Yeah.

08:28It's kind of painful looking backwards because, so you mentioned Christmas, your family celebrated

08:33while many families didn't.

08:35The interesting part about this is most of the quote unquote cult royalty families, most

08:42of them celebrated Christmas because when you become, I don't, I don't know why the difference

08:47is, but when you become in this royalty status, the royalty knows the other royalty and they

08:53know that William Branham celebrated Christmas in his house, but in his public stage persona,

08:59he denounced anybody who celebrated, celebrated Christmas.

09:02So the rank and file member who didn't realize that he had a Christmas tree in his home, he

09:07had presents in his home, gifts, the church would give him gifts.

09:11He even mentioned this on recording.

09:13He mentions all of this on recording, actually, if you go look at it.

09:16So while he's touring and he's just criticizing anybody who celebrates Christmas like they're

09:22inviting demons in their house, he's doing it and all of his inner circle knew that he

09:27was doing it.

09:28So the cult royalty does this.

09:30The cult royalty also were aware that he had a television in his home while he was just

09:35blasting everybody who had TVs, right?

09:38So you grew up in this double standard.

09:41If you're in the cult royalty, you get to do things that nobody else could.

09:45There were large periods of my life where we had TV and then we didn't.

09:50It would kind of flip flop for whatever reason.

09:52There were segments of time where I had it and I remember those movies or TV shows, whatever

10:00they were, where it's portraying a child who's in high school who is isolating himself and

10:07is very in a destructive state of mind and then something bad happens because he has a

10:14mental health issue.

10:15He's isolated himself.

10:16And I never really stopped to think, wait a minute, I'm doing the same exact thing.

10:21I have never heard or never heard anyone say in our church that Christmas, like that

10:28William Branham did Christmas or he didn't do Christmas.

10:32It was never really, I think because maybe my grandparents were Pentecostals before that

10:39and then my grandma was Catholic.

10:40They kind of did it.

10:41So I think it was just always a thing.

10:43But I don't know.

10:46I can't remember if the pastor did it or didn't celebrate it.

10:48But I know that he had a TV, which was very interesting.

10:52He always had to have like quite flash, interesting things.

10:55But his kids and his wife never had flash things.

10:59He invested in himself and what he wanted, but he would never invest in like that sort of

11:04stuff.

11:05So I remember like going to their house and they had a TV.

11:07I was like, oh, okay, that's interesting.

11:09Like we don't have a TV, but we're not.

11:12Now that I'm older, my parents have a TV, but it's not connected up to, you know, the

11:16channels.

11:17It's purely there for them to watch videos from other people's churches.

11:23They watch a lot of like, I don't know the big names.

11:26They used to, and they often sit down and listen to a William Branham sermon at night,

11:32just every night actually.

11:33So yeah, they have a TV now, but they, and they'll watch the Rugby World Cup into it

11:40certainly enough, which is a big thing in New Zealand.

11:44But when we were growing up, like movies, like no, absolutely not.

11:47But I mean, my nana, my nana and my papa had a TV, the ones that helped start the whole

11:53church.

11:53We were allowed to watch like Rugrats occasionally, although my parents were not a fan of that.

11:58But because they were at my nana's, you know, like that was just, oh, it's okay.

12:02So my nana and papa like were really strict, but funnily enough, my nana who helped set

12:07up church, she actually left the church.

12:10And I never found out before she died if she didn't believe in William Branham anymore.

12:17But I think she was going through, she didn't think that people were in there for the right

12:25reasons and she just felt like it was quite, it was an evil place, I think, at the end

12:29from what I remember.

12:31But it would kind of be interesting to know because I was listening to one of your podcasts

12:35the other day and you were talking about, was it Lee Vale and a bunch of other ministers

12:40at kind of, at the end, I realised that maybe William Branham was a fraud and all that sort

12:46of like, wasn't that real.

12:47I kind of, then it made me think like maybe like she was also on that same sort of spectrum

12:52as them, so yeah, it'd be nice to know, but obviously she can't talk to her anymore.

12:56So yeah, interesting that she was like part of the startup and now she, and then she like

13:02left the church and no one could get her to go back.

13:04My auntie couldn't get her to go back, my dad couldn't get her to go back, no one could.

13:08So she, but she was always like, I will stay home, I will read my Bible and pray every

13:12day.

13:13And that was what she did.

13:14Yeah, it's interesting the timeline because it was about, I want to say it was the mid-1980s,

13:20somebody realised that William Branham in one of his sermons, he says that he was in

13:28Houston, Texas and somebody recognised that the date he's talking about, if he was in

13:35Houston, Texas, he could not have been under the 1963 mystery cloud.

13:40And so suddenly this opened up a can of worms that spread throughout the globe in the message

13:45circles, especially among the cult royalty.

13:48Everybody, everybody's like, well, wait, how do we explain this?

13:51If he's in Houston, he can't be in Arizona.

13:54And he says, I was standing right under this, holding up the, what was it, Science Magazine

13:59or Life Magazine article about the cloud.

14:03And so if he's in Houston, he had to have been lying.

14:07How do we explain this?

14:08And so Rebecca Branham Smith published that, I think it's called The Road to Sunset, and

14:16created a timeline to try to reconcile.

14:20And that was published and distributed around the globe.

14:22Everybody's like, oh, well, there's a timeline.

14:24Now we understand it.

14:25But then other people started looking at her timeline and, wait a minute, that doesn't

14:29match what William Branham said at all.

14:31And this just kind of cascaded throughout the globe.

14:36And I really think that that's what started the ball rolling.

14:39Many leaders of the message had to come to terms with, he was really lying about being

14:45there.

14:45He wasn't there.

14:46What do I do with this?

14:48And there were a handful that said, okay, he wasn't there.

14:52He made a mistake and openly admitted this.

14:55But I still believe the message.

14:57He just wasn't truthful in this one aspect.

14:59And the others, they just kind of, like, they concealed it.

15:04They knew that it was a problem.

15:05They knew that he was lying.

15:07And they said, okay, we have to keep this secret.

15:10We can't let the general public and the message know because everybody's going to leave.

15:14If you take the cloud away, you've really taken away the message because everything that

15:18was built on top of that as the spiritual supernatural sign, everything that he said that was built

15:24on top of that comes down with it.

15:25I mean, maybe I was too young for this, but I don't even know if any of that reached, like,

15:32our small town.

15:32And it probably did.

15:34But, I mean, if it did, I would have said that they would have kept that hidden because

15:41they don't want people knowing that sort of stuff.

15:44They need people to, like, be in the church.

15:47But, so, like, I mean, I would have never heard of that.

15:49I don't know.

15:50My parents had never talked about it.

15:51I think my parents would be completely lost if they realized that they were in a cult.

15:56They wouldn't know where to turn, which is really, really sad.

15:59But they, yeah, they really just, they think this man is the one.

16:05And, yeah, it's absolutely crazy.

16:08You know, that's a good point.

16:10People who, there are people who recognize they're in a cult while they're in it.

16:15And what do you do with this?

16:17Your whole life is built on top of it.

16:19All of your friends, all of your network, your people, as humans, we need a network of

16:24support.

16:25And some people, if you cut off that network of support, they really can't survive.

16:29Mentally, sometimes physically, they can't survive.

16:32And I'm certain, well, actually, I know, because I've talked to people who've gone

16:37through this.

16:38I know that there are people who make a conscious decision that, okay, everything that I believe

16:43is false.

16:44However, the man used the word Jesus Christ in some of his sermons.

16:50Interestingly, not all of his sermons.

16:51That's kind of a funny thing.

16:53But the man used the name Jesus Christ.

16:56So, I'm just going to ignore all of the fiction and just focus on Jesus.

17:01And what's interesting is the people who make a conscious decision to leave, they do

17:06the same thing.

17:07But the moment you say, I no longer believe William Branham in the things that he said

17:13that he lied about, I no longer believe the lies, they're instantly cut off from the cult.

17:18And many times they're shunned.

17:20Sometimes they're just emotionally shunned.

17:22Families, the family unit's not the same.

17:25But there are people who are inside who are doing the same exact thing.

17:28And not everybody recognizes that.

17:31I haven't personally said to anybody that I don't, oh, no, maybe I have my parents.

17:36I can't remember.

17:36But I definitely haven't said anything to anybody who's inside the church.

17:41My parents, definitely, there is favoritism.

17:46You can see my parents, see the five of us, my two older brothers, they are both still in

17:53the church.

17:54And you can see the favoritism towards them.

17:56They adore them.

17:58My sister, my older sister, to me, there's three of us, three girls.

18:03We are both not in the church.

18:04But my older sister, not long ago, she had a bit of a mental breakdown.

18:08She was having a full-on panic attack and she just couldn't get out of it.

18:11And she must have, like, rung dad or something.

18:14And he, like, prayed for her.

18:16And she, like, she was, oh, my name, this worked.

18:22And she was, like, okay.

18:23And then he was, like, sending her, like, he was telling her, like, talking to her heaps

18:27and, like, telling her, like, about all the Bible and this sort of stuff.

18:30And it went over for about a week.

18:31And then she kind of was, like, oh, actually, I don't really, like.

18:35And then he stopped talking to her.

18:38And, yeah, it's just so, and, like, you can just see the favoritism.

18:42Like, my brothers have done some bad stuff.

18:44And it's just this whole attitude of, like, forgive and forget and, like, move on.

18:50And it's, like, okay, but in the real world, it wouldn't really be like that.

18:54And a lot of, like, a lot of the church are also the same.

18:58They've all, like, they'll take people aside because, you know,

19:02they've gone up in front of the whole church and they've admitted what they've done.

19:05And they've said that they've prayed for God's forgiveness and everyone prays for them.

19:08And, like, I mean, I'm not in the church anymore.

19:10I'm not even, I don't go to church at all.

19:12Like, I'm not into that sort of thing anymore.

19:15But I found that that was really big within, like, that community.

19:21There was no really, like, punishment for anything.

19:23And boys always held to, like, a higher level.

19:25So they were always, like, okay, you've been forgiven.

19:30Like, that's fine.

19:31And so I just, and even, like, our pastor at the time, who was, like, don't, he was, like,

19:37so under the rug, he swept everything under the rug.

19:40There was no consequences for everything, even if there was sexual assault in the church,

19:44just swept under the rug.

19:46It was pretty bad.

19:48He's actually not in charge anymore.

19:49But, yeah, there are some pretty interesting things that happened, like, in that church.

19:55I mean, maybe I'm just going to go on a tangent about them, but we had this one Sunday school teacher.

20:01He made us read a message book every week.

20:04We had to read a message book, and then he would pick out a couple of people in the class to, like,

20:13report on what they'd read.

20:15But I got kicked out because I wouldn't read them.

20:17I was like, no.

20:18I was also, like, 12 to 14.

20:23So you can imagine I'm not really interested at that age, and I'm not going to read them.

20:29But instead of encouraging someone to sit in and maybe even just hearing about it,

20:36might encourage them.

20:37I was like, no, see you later.

20:39So I didn't actually go back to Sunday school after that.

20:41I think I was, like, I was anywhere from 12 to 13.

20:45But I do remember I cut my hair when I was 12.

20:49And this same guy, I went to Sunday school that day, and he saw it, and he was like,

20:57that day in church, his whole sermon was about Jesus of ours.

21:03Wow.

21:04And I was like, this is about me.

21:06And I actually was kind of laughing.

21:08Well, like, not, like, on the inside.

21:11Because I was like, this is so interesting.

21:12I was like, I know this is pointed at me.

21:14And I just did not care.

21:16I was like, I've cut my hair.

21:18Not a big deal.

21:19We used to tell mum to cut her hair because she'd split ends, and it wasn't looking so

21:24healthy.

21:24But she's like, no, no, no.

21:26And at that point, we'd found out that William Branham's wife and kid used to cut their hair.

21:30I was like, well, he, they did it.

21:33And she was like, no, but it's just not right.

21:35And I'm just like, he did it.

21:38So why can't you do it?

21:40Like, it's not a double standard.

21:41Like, you're just, you're following what he did.

21:43So, I mean, yeah, maybe he preached against it because, but he would also let his wife

21:47and his kid do what he was preaching against.

21:50You know, it's kind of funny because I grew up with all of these personal photographs of

21:55William Branham.

21:56Now, I think a lot of the message people have them, which is even more interesting if you

22:00really stop and think about it, but I grew up having them because my grandparents were

22:06really close to William Branham.

22:08My aunts and uncles played with William Branham's sons and daughters.

22:13And so that we have all these family photos, right?

22:15And you're right.

22:16So, Mita Branham cut her hair, as did most Pentecostals of that era.

22:22They, they did believe that you had to have long hair and they had these little debates

22:29on what does long mean?

22:31You know, if you look at the world today and you are, well, that era, and you look at,

22:35they had what they, what they call bobbed hair.

22:38And this did not originate with William Branham, but it was about to shoulder length or so.

22:44Well, anything below this was long hair compared to the rest of the popular fashion of the

22:49era.

22:50So you had Pentecostal women who had hair that was just slightly longer than shoulder length,

22:55some longer than that.

22:57And there are photographs that exist of the Branham family wearing everything that would

23:02be condemned by the modern message church, everything.

23:05They had skirts that were above the knees.

23:08And I can't tell you how many sermons that I've heard about these quote unquote scandal

23:13skirts, because if you show your kneecap, that's going to turn a guy on.

23:17That's going to really mess.

23:18And it's going to be your fault, sister, because you showed him your kneecap.

23:23And I was growing up, I'm sitting there, I'm going to, you know, I'm a adolescent male

23:29listening to this thinking, you know, I'm not that really impressed with the kneecaps.

23:35Nor the feet, nor the sandals, all of the things they preach that I'm like, that preacher

23:40is just a little bit weird, you know, and I'm listening to this and I've seen the photographs.

23:45I know that the Branham family had, the Branham family boys wore shorts and that's in the

23:51photograph.

23:52In fact, for the visual audience, for those who are watching instead of listening, I'll

23:56throw up a photograph and you can see the shoulders.

24:00The, you could see some of the shoulders in some of the pictures, you could see the knees,

24:05you can see that the hair has clearly been cut of the women and the boys are wearing shorts.

24:10And there's even a photograph of William Branham himself wearing shorts.

24:13So what you saw off stage by all of the people who were in the inner circle did not match what

24:21he said on stage.

24:22And that's what created this double standard.

24:25Yeah.

24:26My funny story about the whole skirt thing, my auntie, she also lives in Perth now.

24:32She actually, one of the main reasons she moved here was because of the pastor at the time.

24:39But she was wearing a skirt that had slits in the ankle, probably like that much.

24:44It was really a small amount, like it wasn't nothing crazy, but apparently you can see her

24:48ankles and the pastor at the time, like pulled her up on about it.

24:52And I think he pulled her up twice on it and was like, you can't wear that.

24:55Like you can't have your ankles out.

24:57You know, men will get turned on by that.

24:59And she was like, absolutely not.

25:01Like that is ridiculous.

25:02If men are going to get turned on by that, that's their problem.

25:05Like not my problem.

25:06They have a problem.

25:09She is very headstrong.

25:11She's still in the message to this day, but she will tell, she told him, like him,

25:16I'm not changing, like I'm wearing a very modest skirt.

25:22Ankle split is not a big deal.

25:25Like, yeah, but I mean, this, like in the modern church that my parents are still in,

25:33it's very, it's very different to how I grew up.

25:35A lot of the girls definitely dress a bit more trendy.

25:40I mean, I dress so ugly.

25:42A lot of the girls dress very ugly back in the day, but very trendy.

25:46The pastor's daughter herself, she has her nails done.

25:49She wears jewellery.

25:51She gets her hair dyed, does her, like tints her eyebrows or whatever, everything that we

25:56were not allowed to do.

25:58And I was like, when I saw her, because she has an Instagram and I follow her and I'm like,

26:02what the actual hell?

26:05Like we were never allowed to do any of that.

26:06No one was allowed to do any of that.

26:08Like, it was a scandal when the old pastor's daughter turned up at church pregnant at 16.

26:12Like, it was an actual, it was a mess.

26:17But I mean, to be honest, she's still in the church.

26:20And the other pastor, his four kids, they all left.

26:24None of them are in the church.

26:25His wife divorced him.

26:27Which is funny because they took, William Branham talks about divorce and is it the men can

26:35remarry and women can't remarry?

26:37Is that how it goes?

26:38Yeah, that's right.

26:39Yeah.

26:40So my, so he actually got remarried, the pastor of the church.

26:45He actually got kicked out of being pastor because his wife left him and divorced him.

26:49They said, no, you can't be a pastor anymore.

26:50But he got remarried a couple of years after that to some lady who was the pastor of another

26:59small church in a town over.

27:02And a lot of people didn't go to the wedding, but not for the reason you think.

27:08You would think that people didn't go to the wedding because he was married previously

27:11and he's been pastor.

27:13People, you know, no, they didn't go to the wedding because she had been engaged previously

27:17to some guy who broke up with her because I think because he was Indian and she wasn't

27:23Indian, something like that.

27:24And his parents wanted her to be Indian.

27:27But yeah, a lot of people didn't go because of that factor, which I thought was very hypocritical,

27:34but very unsurprising for message people.

27:39I mean, he can remarry, but she can't, even though she wasn't engaged.

27:43She wasn't actually technically married, but they say that engaged is married.

27:47So, yeah, it was absolutely wild to me when, because my mum was really good friends with

27:54that lady.

27:56They're not so good friends anymore.

27:57She's very upset that mum didn't go to her wedding.

27:59And I was like, it's not a big deal, mum.

28:02Like, maybe you don't agree with what she's doing, but at the end of the day, you're willing

28:07to lose a friendship over that.

28:09It's, I mean, I, you don't have to like what everybody does.

28:15You don't have to agree with what everybody does.

28:17But they're still in the church.

28:20They're still great people.

28:21Well, the pastor isn't, but his wife is very nice.

28:26You know, like, why would you, I don't know, why would you risk your friendship for that?

28:30But they're so set in their ways when it comes to certain things that they will not bend

28:40on that.

28:41And it's, it shocked me when I found out that that was actually the reason why people didn't

28:46go.

28:46So, here's the interesting part about the marriage and divorce doctrine of the man can

28:51marry, but the woman cannot after they have been married to another person.

28:58Not many people know this, but the original message community up until, I can't remember

29:04what year it changed, but from William Branham stage persona during latter reign, probably

29:11from the 1940s or so up until long after he died, no people who were married could ever

29:20marry another person while their spouse was still living, because that was general Pentecostal

29:25doctrine.

29:27But what happened was, William Branham's son, who was, there's a lot I could say about the

29:35things he was doing, but I'll just limit it to this.

29:38William Branham's son married another woman, got engaged to be married to another woman,

29:44actually went through the marriage.

29:45And the rumor is that he also had a child, which I, you know, the records are kind of

29:52sealed.

29:53I can't go in and verify that, but I have heard that existed as a problem.

29:59He filed for divorce or she did.

30:02I can't remember one of the two filed for divorce.

30:04If you go to my website, you can look up in Billy Paul Branham, you can actually see the

30:08government documents.

30:10Filed for divorce.

30:10They separated and William Branham is presented with a problem because Billy Paul is still

30:16dating other girls.

30:17And so William Branham gets, he blows his stack.

30:21He's so angry.

30:23And he tells all of his following that I annulled their marriage and therefore they separated.

30:29But that's not what happened.

30:30It's an actual divorce.

30:32And you can see the court documents.

30:33There was an actual divorce.

30:34I have actually spoken to his first wife, Billy Paul's first wife, and we've actually

30:40had quite a few conversations.

30:42And yeah, they were married.

30:43There was a lot more to that story than I can even tell right now.

30:48But William Branham gets pissed and he starts just railing against the problems that exist

30:56today and the fact that men are so constrained.

31:00And he preaches the sermon, marriage and divorce.

31:04And he says, we have one male deer and many female deers.

31:10We have one cow and many female cows, one bull and many female cows.

31:15He goes through all the animal kingdom and he basically says that men are like raging bulls

31:21and they need lots of women.

31:23He's saying this in the sermon and he says awful hideous things like women are designed solely

31:29for the purpose of sex.

31:31And it wasn't so from the beginning.

31:33Satan designed them this way.

31:35And therefore, the men should be able to have as many women as they want, but one at a time.

31:39That's essentially what he said.

31:42But he said, this is only for my church.

31:47Don't let this recording out.

31:49And so only the people who were localized to hear that sermon, and they're all being recorded,

31:56like everything the man said was recorded, only the people that were sitting there got

32:00to hear it because they withheld the tape.

32:03And then there came to be this battle, which Charles and I are actually, we just recorded

32:08yesterday how that tape got released and why.

32:12So we'll get into that.

32:14It'll come out probably, I think it comes out before this one comes out.

32:17But we talk about why marriage and divorce got released to the public.

32:22But that's what created the doctrine of he can remarry, but she can't.

32:28Interestingly, at the same time it did that because of the way he tried to defend this

32:32nonsense, it also introduced polygamy into the message.

32:36And that spread around the globe.

32:39There were many, many ministers who, even in the states where it is not legal, they were

32:44practicing polygamy.

32:45Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of

32:51modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe

32:56movements into the new apostolic reformation?

32:59You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,

33:04william-branham.org.

33:06On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles

33:12Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio,

33:18and digital versions of each book.

33:21You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those

33:26movements.

33:27If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the

33:32Contribute button at the top.

33:33And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening

33:39to or watching.

33:40On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

33:45I'm actually excited to listen to the episode of how Marriage and Divorce came out, because

33:49I have, it's one of the ones I, I mean, I don't really remember exactly what was preached,

33:54but I remember hearing about it a lot.

33:55We definitely listened to it a lot.

33:57It was played a lot.

33:59I don't know why.

34:00It was, well, it's very, there's a very misogynistic sort of presence, obviously, in this, in the

34:07message.

34:08And so that was definitely one that I heard a lot.

34:12Kind of just sounds like he hated women.

34:16I don't know, it just sounds, I don't know why, like, you would go on a tangent like that

34:21if you didn't have some sort of hate against women.

34:24And it sounds like maybe he could not, maybe if it was Billy Paul's wife that, like, proceeded

34:31with a divorce, maybe he just, like, wasn't happy about that.

34:35But, yeah, it's, I didn't realise that it came about because of Billy Paul.

34:39But it doesn't surprise me that he just made that up out of something that happened because,

34:46yeah, it was always a big thing.

34:48I do remember one, there was a divorced lady in our church and another divorced male in our

34:54church.

34:55I think they were spending a bit of time together.

34:57Don't really know what happened, but they eventually were told that they had to stop.

35:02Which is ironic because they were told to stop by the same man who ended up remarrying.

35:08So, you know, it makes absolutely no sense.

35:12I don't know if it was, it was probably because she was actually divorced.

35:17But his, but her ex-husband ended up coming to our church and with his new wife and their

35:26daughter.

35:28All was, all was fine.

35:29I think, I think some, I think she threatened not to come to the church.

35:33I think actually they, then they walked in one day and she walked out and then I think

35:38her daughters walked out as well because they were like, no.

35:41But I think, I think they still go to the church.

35:44I'm not really sure.

35:46But yeah, it was so many like random marriage and divorces that are like accepted.

35:53But then they have this, there's this whole marriage and divorce sermon and it's like,

35:58is anybody actually following that?

36:00Because William Branham said this and no one's really doing that.

36:05So he also said, he also demonized interracial marriage.

36:12I do remember having a conversation with my mother and I'm pretty sure she said something

36:17about this couple in our church that was interracial that were married.

36:20And I was like, not a big deal, but I don't know if she still sees that view, but.

36:27You know, it's odd because I went to churches all across the nation.

36:34We, growing up, I went to something like, I lost count, like 13 different schools, but

36:38from Arizona to South Carolina and everywhere in between, we went to churches and then I visited

36:43several churches, et cetera.

36:44And what's interesting is whenever somebody got divorced and then they remarried, they

36:52were pretty much scorned in the church.

36:55Initially, they were outcast, even though that they would continue to come because they had

37:00nowhere else to go.

37:01Like we've talked about, it's your entire support group.

37:04So they're taking a lot of heat for several years.

37:08But what's interesting is there comes a point of time for, I haven't put the connection,

37:15maybe it's the ones that pay more tithes, I don't know.

37:17But there are certain people that can do it and then they overcome this and then they're

37:22well-respected, they're asked to pray in the church and all of the scorn just magically

37:26disappears and people forget that they got divorced and remarried.

37:30But there are people who overcome this.

37:32There are, on the other side, people who are condemned for the rest of their life.

37:36It is a branding and you are branded, male or female, no matter, you know, even William

37:41Branham said he can, but she can't.

37:44Well, there were men who were scorned because of this, right?

37:46In fact, one of my best friends, this was the case.

37:49It created a problem for him.

37:51But all of that existed.

37:54What we didn't know at the time is before William Branham preached marriage and divorce,

37:59he clearly stated that neither one could remarry after they had one spouse.

38:04But yet at the same time, in the same court that had the documents that I got with Billy

38:10Paul, William Branham is helping perform the marriages of his brothers multiple times.

38:15Some of his brothers that I know were well-respected and came to the Branham Tabernacle.

38:20So he's helping them trade women like baseball teams trade baseball players.

38:25Yeah.

38:25I listened to the episode recently where you talked about it and I was like, huh.

38:28I was like, I bet you a lot of people in the church do not know that, nor would they want

38:34to know that because then they'd be like, oh, are they getting remarried?

38:39And he was remarrying them and yeah, they don't want to know that.

38:42But yeah, no, I thought that was so interesting.

38:45I mean, he goes back on what he does everything.

38:48He says something and then he does a different thing.

38:50So it's not really surprising.

38:51But it's shocking when you hear it for the first time.

38:55So you have an interesting history and I'm curious what it's like in the other side of

38:59the globe whenever somebody decides to leave the message.

39:03What was it like for you when you left the message?

39:05How, what made you decide to leave?

39:08How did it happen when you left?

39:10And what were the after effects?

39:11So I think it kind of said, I've never really believed in this whole thing.

39:18Um, I think when I started hanging out with a lot of Christians in the homeschooling group

39:25that were actually denominational Christians and they could wear pants and do whatever they

39:28want.

39:29And then I really wanted to go to high school.

39:32I, like, I wanted to be like every other kid.

39:35And I got my first pair of jeans when I was 12 and mum threw a fit.

39:39She was like, where the hell did you get those from?

39:41Like, what, why do you have those?

39:44And it just kept on going like little things.

39:46And then I got to high school and I eventually was just doing whatever I wanted.

39:51Um, not, well, not whatever I wanted, but I was wearing pants and dressing kind of how,

39:55within what I wanted.

39:56But I think I was still going to church when I started high school.

40:00So I was like 14.

40:01I didn't really want to go, but I went anyway.

40:03Cause I think mum and dad kind of said, maybe like when you're 16, you can stop going to

40:08church.

40:09So I was still holding on, still very disinterested, falling asleep in church.

40:14Cause they were all just yelling about what you can and can't do.

40:17And I was like, cool.

40:19Um, so I went to a friend's church, uh, Pentecostal church.

40:23I stayed over at a half at night and we rang my parents in the morning.

40:26I was like, oh, can I go to church there?

40:27And they were like, oh yeah, like whatever, that's fine.

40:32And so I just dressed in her clothes and I was wearing a dress that was above my knees,

40:37but I was wearing stockings and it wasn't a low, it wasn't a low dress, but like it was

40:43not for anyone who can see.

40:45It wasn't like a high top, like I'm wearing now.

40:48Um, and I was wearing a leather jacket over top and I got home cause I was dropped straight

40:52off after that.

40:53And I walked in and my dad was like, why are you wearing that?

40:57You look like a whore.

40:57And I was like, really?

41:00Cause I'm still pretty covered.

41:02Like I was like, and all of these things, I was just like, I don't want to go to this

41:08church.

41:08Like it's horrible.

41:11My dad's talking about trials and tribulations, how Satan's coming down and he's going to torture

41:18us, but we're not going to die cause it's not how it works.

41:21Um, he's gone, he's in the rapture cause he's got his right, his life right.

41:24And I'm like, what the hell?

41:26And yeah, I think by the time I got to like 15 or 16, I'd stopped going to church.

41:32I did go every now and then because I actually had friends still in the church and people,

41:37people were quite nice.

41:39Um, they were, they were happy that I like would come to church, um, which was nice.

41:45But then, cause my brother wasn't going to church at that time.

41:50There are some issues with my brother there.

41:52Um, so we wouldn't be together in the same room sort of thing.

41:57So I, he wasn't going to that church at the time.

42:00So I would still go to that church and then I stopped going.

42:04And I think I was, I must've been like 16.

42:06I just was kind of like, I've just had enough of this.

42:08Like, I just don't want to go anymore.

42:10I've still got like church camps every now and then I'd go to like potlucks if it was

42:13like outside of church.

42:14Everyone was actually quite nice.

42:17And I would still talk to many of the people in the church today.

42:21I want to say I'm quite lucky that the church is so lovely.

42:24They'll even, they'll talk to you and they won't even mention like God or the church or

42:27anything like that.

42:28Some will, some won't.

42:30Um, but no one's really like isolated.

42:33I would say my parents have isolated me more than other people in the church.

42:38Like, I mean, I still had, um, some of the elders in the church come to my 21st birthday.

42:43I'm very happy to come along.

42:46I mean, they were, you know, they're like my, I guess I would say aunties and uncles.

42:50They'll give them, give me a, the men will give me a hug.

42:53Um, like, but that was obviously a very big no, no, like when I was growing up, but you

42:57know, I'm 21 now, like I've done going to church and so I'm just like, you know, and

43:00I'm also, I've been drinking.

43:02So I'm like, goodbye, give me a hug.

43:03And they will just give you like, they don't, they kind of like to that point where they're

43:06just like, it's not really a big deal.

43:08Um, so I've been lucky in that respect.

43:10I know a lot of people have been like completely shunned.

43:13I don't really talk for a lot of people, but I do know that my brother ended up going

43:17back to that church where he resides now.

43:20And the pastor rang me up and he was like, you know, you're welcome back anytime.

43:23I just want to let you know that he goes here now.

43:25And I was like, I'm never coming back if he's there.

43:28I'm like, you've got to be crazy to think that I would ever like step foot while he's

43:33there.

43:33But, but as I said before, like, that was also part of, that's a big part of like why

43:40I would never go back is because they support him, even though he's done bad things because

43:46he has asked for God's forgiveness.

43:49I don't know if it's, he wasn't scorned because he's a male and he got up there and he admitted

43:56it and that he prayed and asked God for forgiveness.

44:00But yeah, like, and everyone's like, oh, you know, he's changed.

44:05Like, you know, he's not that bad anymore.

44:07But it's funny because he was 27 a few years ago and he was courting a 16 year old from

44:15the church.

44:15And I was like, yeah, this is not normal.

44:20Like, so there's like stuff like that that goes on.

44:22It's just, it's not something for me.

44:24And you know, when I was a teenager growing up, seeing all of this stuff, you just slowly

44:30lose hope.

44:31And you're just like, this is not the life I want to live.

44:34I can't do this.

44:35And so, yeah, there's the more this day and I was like, nah.

44:40So I just like slowly stopped going to church and just slept on Sundays instead.

44:45As you know, as a teenager, she would sleep.

44:48So I am lucky on the side of people haven't shunned me.

44:54I'm still really close with one of my friend's mums that goes to church and she probably has

44:59the best outlook on life as a message believer.

45:03She's very much into God.

45:04She's very much into William Branham.

45:06But she very much accepts everybody as they are.

45:10And I think that might be because she's a teacher.

45:12And so she is, she just, I know she's just a beautiful person and the most person, the

45:20person I respect the most in that church.

45:22It's interesting talking about the lady who's a teacher.

45:26I've noticed this too.

45:27You have people who are in the cult that really isolate themselves from society.

45:33And even if they're in society, they kind of shut their brain off.

45:37They don't recognize that there is a world around them.

45:40But you have other people, especially like somebody who is forced by their profession to

45:45interact with people of other faiths, cultures, beliefs, et cetera.

45:50And you find those are the ones that usually don't shun the people.

45:54They're usually open.

45:56Yes, this person left the message, but they believe in Jesus Christ.

45:59That makes them a Christian.

46:00I'm a Christian.

46:01Therefore, we're compatible.

46:02That's how a normal human being should see it.

46:06But there are many people who isolate themselves.

46:10In your church, so you weren't shunned.

46:11I'm curious, was there shunning in your church?

46:13Maybe a bit more when the old pastor was in charge.

46:18He was definitely big for you have to do right or like don't come back.

46:23But the new pastor has been quite welcoming of everybody.

46:27He's very much, I think they decided it's very much community and you're welcome if you

46:35want to come along.

46:36And it's not a big deal if you wear pants and, you know, do things that we wouldn't do.

46:44Yeah, I think that maybe it's like a ploy to, you know, see if some people come back to

46:49the church.

46:50But yeah, maybe like back in the day there was some shunning.

46:54But nowadays, yeah, it's not so much like that.

47:00Everyone kind of is still friendly with everybody.

47:04But yeah, I don't know.

47:05Like, I'm surprised actually, the lady who's a teacher, I'm surprised that she didn't get

47:10shunned because she actually left her husband a couple of years ago.

47:14And he's still in the church as well.

47:16He was quite angry and she just had enough.

47:20And she was like, well, if you're not going to get therapy, like, I'm moving out.

47:25I don't think that they have a divorce or anything and she doesn't want to do that.

47:29But yeah, I think it would have been very different under the old pastor's control.

47:40I think he would have been very much like, this is like, not okay, don't do this.

47:44But I mean, my grandmother, my own grandmother, my maternal grandmother, she went over and

47:50saw this lady and she was like, telling her she's not doing the right thing and she should

47:53just deal with her husband.

47:55And she was like, kindly, no, this is like, none of your business.

48:01Like, I'm doing what's best for me.

48:03And I think that she isn't isolated, whereas, like, a lot of other people do isolate themselves.

48:10I have found that some of the people that haven't grown up in the message, like some

48:15of the elders in the church, they came in, like, the 70s or 80s because they're all quite

48:21older now.

48:23I feel like they've had that life experience, so they're not as strict.

48:29But I feel like some of the ones that grew up in it are a little bit more odd, the ones

48:34that stay.

48:36But I know that a lot of the elders' kids have not stayed in the church.

48:41A lot of them are out in the world.

48:43And I know one of the elders' sons even came out gay, and people have actually accepted

48:52it.

48:53No one has been, like, rude to him or anything.

48:56They accepted it as a family.

48:59So, none of this would have existed 15 years ago.

49:06I'm trying to think out how old I am.

49:08And when I was back in church, when I was 15 years ago, none of this would have been okay

49:12at all.

49:15But, yeah, there has been definitely a change.

49:18I don't know.

49:19People are just nicer, more community-based now.

49:24Which is, it's nice to see a change.

49:26I still don't agree with what they believe in a lot of things they do.

49:30But it is nice to see community-based.

49:34So, yeah.

49:35Which I don't think a lot of churches, from what I've heard, are.

49:38So, what advice would you give to people who have left the message and they're trying to

49:42establish their footing in the non-cult world?

49:46You've done very well for yourself.

49:47And there are others who, you know, after watching this, they want to do well for themselves,

49:52too.

49:53What advice would you give them?

49:54Great question.

49:55It definitely took me a long time.

49:57And I think that going to school, going to university definitely helped.

50:02I think it's just all about, like, getting out there, meeting lots of different people.

50:07Because you end up finding who you are.

50:09You find, like, different friends around.

50:11You find out, like, who you are.

50:13You know, you get a career that's got nothing to do with the church.

50:18And you're just, like, you just live your life.

50:21You find out what you like.

50:21You find out your hobbies, what you enjoy.

50:25Which is hard to do because, you know, you grow up in such a stringent environment.

50:31But, yeah, I think it took me a long time to get to this point.

50:35It was definitely socialising, not being so isolated, and just really finding out, like,

50:42who I was as a person.

50:43And it takes a really long time when you have been in the cult.

50:47I left when I was 16, and I feel probably most at peace now when I'm, and now I'm at

50:5327.

50:54So, but I did also move away.

50:57I moved away from a lot of that.

50:58So, I don't have, I'm not saying move away.

51:01But it is nice to just get out there, meet different people, and just do something different.

51:11Do something new.

51:13Find out what you like.

51:14Find out what you don't like.

51:16And, yeah, honestly, just be yourself.

51:18Because you'll find people out there that will actually accept you for who you are.

51:22Even if you still are a little weird.

51:24But, and you'll just end up becoming this person, this version of you that you never knew you

51:29could be.

51:30And, I enjoy who I am now.

51:33I enjoy my life.

51:34I know.

51:35I was so scared.

51:37Even, probably as a 20-year-old, because I would always remember my dad telling me about

51:41the child's interpretation.

51:43And I was like, oh, my God.

51:44Like, I was like, I guess I'm just having a good time now.

51:46Like, I'll get back to it.

51:47And now, I'm like, that's not true.

51:49Like, I'm living, I would want to say a morally right life.

51:54And, I'm not a bad person.

51:57And, I am very happy who I am now.

52:00Well, that's very good advice.

52:02I'm glad that you came on.

52:04And, thank you for sharing your story with us.

52:06No, thank you.

52:07It's actually, glad to have this experience.

52:10Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want to share your story, you can check us

52:13out on the web.

52:14You can find us at william-brannum.org.

52:16For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized

52:20Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

52:50You can find us at william-brannum.org.

Branhamism in New Zealand: Escape From A Message Cult - With Stephanie Bailey - Our Stories - 350

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