'Is That An Accurate Quote?': Jon Ossoff Grills FDA Commissioner About Reported Layoffs

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During a Senate Appropriations Committee hearing on Thursday, Sen. Jon Ossoff (D-GA) spoke about reported layoffs at the FDA.

Transcript

00:00Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Dr. Macari, good to see you.

00:03Good to see you.

00:03Thank you for joining us.

00:05I was pleased to see that the secretary has made the safety of infant formula a priority for the department.

00:13Is that correct?

00:14That's right, and the FDA will be convening the world experts on infant formula June 4th,

00:21and we're going to be having a robust discussion because parents want infant formula options

00:26with a better supply chain and without added sugar and seed oils.

00:30Did you see a recent Consumer Reports study which found that of 41 tested infant formulas,

00:38more than 30 were found to have potentially dangerous levels of lead?

00:42Yeah, heavy metals in infant formula is something that's getting a lot of attention, as it should,

00:47and so that is part of Operation Stork Speed to take a hard look at that,

00:51and it is one of the priorities of our infant formula roundtable at the FDA on June 4th.

00:56And it's the human foods division of your agency responsible for infant formula safety,

01:03at least in large part, yes?

01:05Yes.

01:07Trying to make sure I understand some of the relevant personnel decisions,

01:11given the concern that families in Georgia have about the safety of infant formula,

01:17the safety of the food supply. James Jones, the deputy commissioner for human foods,

01:23submitted a resignation letter February 17th, included the quotes, quote,

01:29the indiscriminate firing of 89 staff in the human foods program is beyond short-sighted.

01:35The foods program staff at FDA is the envy of the world in its technical, professional,

01:39and ethical standards. It goes on, the employees fired this past weekend are the most recent hires

01:44and generally come to federal service with the most recent education and represent the future of the agency.

01:48They included staff with highly technical expertise in nutrition, infant formula, food safety response,

01:54and even 10 chemical safety staff hired to review potentially unsafe ingredients in our food supply.

02:00That was February 17th. You were asked on April 17th whether any of the personnel reductions

02:09had included personnel responsible for food safety or infant formula safety.

02:14You said, quote, there were no cuts to scientists or reviewers or inspectors, absolutely none.

02:20You were asked on April 23rd on CNN and said, quote, again,

02:24there were no cuts to scientists or inspectors.

02:27But then just two days later, an HHS spokesperson confirmed that, in fact, scientists had been fired

02:38and that you were scrambling to rehire them.

02:42Is that... Did you, in fact, say on April 23rd there were no cuts to scientists or inspectors?

02:49Just before we get into the details, is that an accurate quote?

02:51No scientific reviewer was cut as part of the reduction in force.

02:55But you said there were no cuts to scientists or inspectors. Didn't you say that?

02:58My understanding was that there were no cuts to the scientific staff,

03:03but specifically the scientific reviewers is what I was referring to.

03:06But you said there were... I mean, I've just...

03:08Jim Jones is an economist.

03:08It's a very straightforward question.

03:09You said there were no cuts to scientists or inspectors, correct?

03:12Scientific reviewers is what I was referring to.

03:15That's the vast majority of scientists there. Jim Jones is an economist.

03:18And then five days before you had said there were no cuts to scientists.

03:22You said that, right?

03:22I was referring to scientific reviewers. There are...

03:25But scientists had been fired, correct?

03:27There have been a couple... There have been research scientists in some labs that have been doing some research.

03:33Some of that research is good. Some of it is not good.

03:36And so there have been no cuts to scientific reviewers.

03:38And in fact, scientists who study the safety of infant formula had been fired, correct?

03:45I'm not aware of any scientist who studies infant formula.

03:49Well, here's the reporting in the New York Times.

03:53It says the HHS spokesman said those employees called back had been inadvertently fired.

03:59And the decision to rehire specialists on outbreaks of food-related illnesses

04:03and those who study the safety of products like infant formula...

04:07So is this reporting accurate?

04:09Had, in fact, scientists who study outbreaks of food-related illnesses and the safety of infant formula been fired?

04:17The reason it's not accurate, Senator, is that people were not fired.

04:21They were scheduled for the reduction in force.

04:23And when I...

04:24That was before I got there.

04:25When I got there, we did an assessment.

04:26And so some of those individuals out of the 19,000 were restored.

04:31Jim Jones was an economist, and he was upset about the doge cuts, so he self-doged.

04:37I didn't...

04:38He was not fired.

04:39I wish he would have stayed, but he chose to leave.

04:41Have all scientists responsible for food safety and infant formula safety been rehired or reinstated?

04:49Look, we have not reduced in force the scientific review staff.

04:55I know where you're going with this.

04:57We're not allowed to let go a single person.

04:57I'm trying to get clarity on your statement.

04:59You said there were no cuts to scientists, and then the HHS spokesperson said,

05:05actually, there were cuts to scientists, and now we're trying to rehire them.

05:08I mean, so it gives the impression you're not sure about the personnel actions ongoing in your own agency,

05:14and that's...

05:14Again, no one was cut.

05:15...indication from your testimony here again today.

05:17No one was cut in the reduction of force.

05:19They were scheduled for the reduction in the future.

05:23And down the road, it has not happened yet.

05:25So the people scheduled to be cut, we did a review and found some research scientists.

05:31When I made those statements, it was very specific.

05:33I was very clear.

05:34We're talking about scientific reviewers, because the trains have to run on time.

05:38And if you're concerned about backlogging labs...

05:39My time is up, my time is up, but you were very specific.

05:42You said there were no cuts to scientists, and then five days later, there were no cuts to scientists.

05:48Those are your direct quotes.

05:50There were no cuts to scientists, but there were cuts to scientists.

05:53No, there were no cuts to scientists, because people were scheduled for the reduction in force in the future,

05:59and the people scheduled were re-evaluated, and we restored a couple of research scientists.

06:06And I was referring not only to them, but to...

06:08How many?

06:09...to the scientific reviewers.

06:11How many scientists responsible for preventing outbreaks of food-related illnesses

06:17and the safety of infant formula have been restored or reinstated?

06:20There were no scientists that were in charge of preventing outbreaks that were part of...

06:26I didn't say in charge.

06:27But, I mean, this is the problem in government.

06:29Somebody has a fancy-sounding name like Infant Formula Safety, and no one can ever touch them,

06:34even if they're not doing their job.

06:36Okay, I'll tell you what.

06:36How about this?

06:37It's redundant.

06:37I'll send you, so that you can get accurate information to the committee,

06:42I'll send you some very detailed questions about this, and you'll respond in full, yes?

06:48Yes, just keep in mind, the agency was half its size in 2007.

06:52We didn't have outbreaks and rampages and food outbreaks.

06:55But we had a huge infant formula safety crisis in this country just a few years ago.

06:59Do you recall that?

06:59That was because of several problems, including...

07:02So you will respond in full to the questions that I send you.

07:05I'm always happy to respond in full to you, Senator.

07:06Thank you so much, Dr. McCarty.

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