During a Senate Appropriations Committee hearing last month, Sen. Jon Ossoff (D-GA) sparred with Veterans Affairs Secretary Doug Collins over staffing shortages at the VA.
00:00First of all, Dublin. You and I discussed Dublin yesterday, and as you're aware, predating your tenure, very significant sterilization failures that led to the potential exposure of thousands of Georgia veterans to blood-borne diseases, and indeed, some of those who may have been exposed later tested positive for HIV and hepatitis.
00:27In March of this year, the inspector general conducted an additional inspection of facilities at Dublin and found continued egregious failures. Can you assure the subcommittee and Georgia veterans that these issues at Dublin have been resolved?
00:49Yes. I've actually been to Dublin. I was there about two months ago, and we've gotten reports since then. This is about the time Dr. Lieberman, who is our chief doctor who is over VHA, has confirmed this as well, that those have been replaced.
01:02The problem there was a conversation we just had a few minutes ago about leadership, and that's what we're trying to correct. Right now, we're trying to get permanent leadership into the Dublin facility, and for those who may not know the Dublin facility, this is a facility.
01:17It's a great part of the state of Georgia. That's my, you know, sort of, I got a lot of friends and family down there, but it's harder to recruit down there. It's harder to get folks to come into that facility and want to be there long term. So we're trying to work that out, because I think this is a leadership problem.
01:35Yeah, and I want, and forgive me, Mr. Secretary, I want to get to the leadership at Dublin, but just to be clear in order to ensure that we're-
01:41Yes, there's a-
01:42Informing the public, your testimony is that these issues have been resolved in Dublin.
01:46And does that include all of the outstanding Inspector General recommendations that were found in March?
01:54The March 6th report says that there were significant failures to resolve previous OIG-identified deficiencies,
02:03failure to fully implement Sensitrack, which is an electronic surgical instrument tracking system,
02:08failure to address concerns of the Sensitrack coordinators' performance on implementation,
02:15failures to resolve concerns related to sterilization facilities.
02:20Have all of the Inspector General recommendations with respect to Dublin sterilization,
02:26which were not yet implemented in March, now been implemented?
02:33No problem.
02:36To my understanding, yes.
02:37And I'll be happy to, because this is, again, for you and I both in Georgia, I'll be happy to go back and look at that again.
02:43My understanding is, yes, Dr. Lieberman said it has, but I'll be happy to go back and look at that and make sure.
02:49Yeah, and that same March inspection, in addition to the not yet completed or implemented recommendations from the past OIG report,
02:58again at Dublin, this is March, the OIG determined that sterilization and operating room staff failed to remove
03:05non-conforming surgical instruments from the rectal tray, OIG found additional surgical instruments in non-conforming condition,
03:13and that contrary to policy, staff reprocessed and used non-conforming instruments at the facility,
03:18a range of other failures.
03:20That was in March.
03:21So your assurance that the Inspector General's recommendations have been implemented is appreciated,
03:26and I would welcome any follow-up you can provide as soon as possible so that we can reassure folks who are served by this Dublin facility that they're safe getting care there.
03:34I will definitely do that, and not to give away there's some issues.
03:39Dublin, especially with this, this is, as you all know, probably before your tenure as well and mine as well,
03:45Dublin has had this, there's been some issues down there before.
03:49We're going to make sure of this.
03:50We're staying on top of it, but I will, again, correct you.
03:53I'll give you some information before.
03:54And you mentioned that at Dublin, leadership is a major issue.
03:58Yes.
03:58And as of, we got this report May, so as of May 9th, we received a report that the recruitment of a new medical director at Dublin was on hold due to the hiring freeze.
04:23Now, I know you have faced substantial pushback on the effects of that hiring freeze.
04:29Can you confirm that you have, you've changed course and you've exempted that position now from the hiring freeze?
04:35Those are exempted, yes.
04:36As I shared yesterday on the phone, those are exempted, yes.
04:38Okay.
04:39And when was that exemption made?
04:40Because this was a, we got this on May 9th, said that recruitment of a new Dublin director.
04:46May 15th.
04:46May 15th.
04:47Okay, thank you very much.
04:48So that would have been after.
04:50Atlanta.
04:50Atlanta, recent Inspector General report focused on Atlanta.
04:56This is a June 12th report on staffing shortages, among other issues.
05:01Now, and I think you know this, Mr. Secretary, for years, the wait times at the VA Medical Center in Atlanta have been driven in large part by staffing shortages.
05:12I've heard it from the leadership there year after year.
05:16This Inspector General report found, as of June 12th, 208 vacancies at the Atlanta VA, including 67 provider, 42 registered nurse, 32 licensed practical nurse, 49 medical support assistant, and 18 pharmacist positions short at the Atlanta VA.
05:37What is your goal, the date that you'd like to bring the Atlanta VA up to full staffing, please?
05:43To hire them all.
05:44If you've got any.
05:45Yeah, and by when, is my question.
05:47As soon as possible.
05:48I mean, we're not, there's no delay here in this.
05:50This is a, and I think if we would also look at the Atlanta market as well in healthcare, we'd also see other, Piedmont, also at Northside, also at St. Joe's and others, having similar shortages in their staffing.
06:02Atlanta is a market, like a lot of other markets, in which healthcare, especially CNAs, LPNs, RNs, are in great demand.
06:10They're the ones that are controlling the market, so as doctors as well.
06:14And the wait times, as you know, in Atlanta are a particular issue.
06:17Of course, there are wait times at other facilities as well.
06:20But, no, there's nothing stopping.
06:22I appreciate the ambition of as soon as possible, but I'd like to know, I mean, we'd like to work toward a deadline, so can you give me a date by which you'd like to ensure the Atlanta VA is fully staffed?
06:33Well, Senator, I think you know that that's not something I can give you, but I'd be happy to do a health fair with you, and I'd come down and you and I could recruit these workers.
06:40Well, I tell you what, why don't you...
06:41I'd be happy, I mean, we'd be happy to do, I'm not trying to be funny here.
06:43I'd love to work with you.
06:45I'd love to work with you to make sure we recruit those healthcare workers.
06:48But what I'd also like you to do is to get with your staff, get with the VISN, get with the leadership at the Atlanta VA, and come back to me and the subcommittee with a date by which you believe you can fill those open positions.
07:01Can you do that?
07:02Well, I would definitely get the information to see what their goals and targets are.
07:07Well, we've got to have a goal.
07:07Yeah, and I agree with you.
07:08So we'll get with that and we'll see what we can do.
07:10So you'll come back with a date?
07:11Well, I'm not sure we'll get a date.
07:12I'll have to talk to Atlanta.
07:14I mean, we'll see what their actual recruitment is.
07:15Because, I mean, again...
07:16That's what I'm saying.
07:17I want you to talk to the leadership in Atlanta.
07:19I want you to talk to the VISN.
07:20I want to talk to your staff.
07:21And I want you to present me and the subcommittee with a date by which you think it's feasible to fill those spots.
07:27I'll be happy to present you a plan.
07:28But also, you're also setting up a date, which I understand you're trying to do, to set up a date that may or may not be capable.
07:34Because you couldn't get the same answer from Northside CEO or Piedmont CEO or anyone else.
07:38I just know that deadline-driven work...
07:40I agree with you completely.
07:41...is often the most efficient and determined work.
07:44And I want something that's fair to hold you accountable to.
07:47So, will you get a target date?
07:50We'll work together to see where it's going.
07:51It's trajectory, isn't it?
07:52Look, I'm not going to play the game.
07:54What game?
07:54Because it's not a game.
07:56Because there's no other health...
07:56There's no other facility in the world that will say, by X date, we're going to definitely have people hired.
08:02I didn't say you definitely.
08:02I'm looking for a goal.
08:03You don't think leadership at other health care facilities set goals for when they're going to fill open medical slots?
08:08I think they fill them as quickly as they possibly can.
08:10We hire over 1,000 people a month.
08:11So, you will not present a target date?
08:14I would like to have them filled by the end of the fiscal year.
08:16That'd be great.
08:17By the end of the fiscal year.
08:18Now, will it be filled?
08:19I'm not going to say they'll be filled because there's a lot of other factors in there that I can't control.
08:23Mr. Secretary, and I know we're belaboring this, Mr. Chairman, but this isn't a gotcha.
08:27What I'm saying, this is just good management practice.
08:29I just want to know when you believe it can be done.
08:34I'll tell you what, let's put it that way.
08:35Hopefully.
08:35No, you don't need to tell me right now.
08:37I'm not even trying to put you.
08:38Why don't you talk to the VISN, talk to the facility, talk to your staff, and come back and let me know by when you think it can be done.
08:45Will you do that?
08:45I look forward to the conversation.
08:48Yeah, I mean, I look forward to the conversation.
08:49Will you let me know?
08:50You're asking for me an answer that I can't give you because I've not talked to the other people.
08:53I'm not asking for the date.
08:54I'm asking if you can give me a target.
08:56Yes, we can look toward giving you a target, yes.
08:59Okay.
08:59That's all I needed on Atlanta, Mr. Secretary.
09:03I just got some additional questions about a letter that I sent you at the beginning of this Congress.
09:13But first, Augusta.
09:17WRDW, WJBF, Augusta reported this month an IG report says VA Augusta leaders fostered, quote,
09:23a culture of fear with a, quote, threatening and abusive communication style and allegedly retaliated against employees who shared concerns.
09:33I know the acting director was put on leave pending an investigation.
09:36I think that's a positive step.
09:38We spoke yesterday.
09:40Mr. Secretary, you confirmed you were recruiting for leadership at both of these facilities.
09:49Can you confirm that it's among your highest priorities to get a permanent new leadership staff in at Augusta?
09:55Yes, and to further elaborate without trying to belabor this because I know where we're at, but there's actually two incidences here that I'm going to report.
10:04The one that you just mentioned was done earlier, if not right before I came in, and that was the workplace issue, the leadership issue.
10:13That person actually was, I called, failed up and was put in the visit in an administrative role.
10:20I made the call that we needed to put that person on administrative leave because if the reports had already shown that there was a toxic workplace,
10:28putting our veteran employees and our VA employees in a bad place in a workplace.
10:34So that one was out.
10:35That was the issue we did then.
10:36So then there's another that we tried to replace that one with that, unfortunately, I can't speak in open setting for personnel issues and reasons here,
10:45but has been removed as well, and that's when, as I told you yesterday on the phone, we now have another acting, I think is in now, correct?
10:53There's another acting is in at Augusta, and we are looking, to finish your question, I just wanted to give you the total picture.
11:00We are looking for permanent.
11:01That should be one of our flagship hospitals in our system,
11:04and so, yes, we're looking for someone to take that permanently.
11:07Okay, final issue, and thank you, Mr. Chairman, for indulging the questions.
11:13I sent you a letter February 13th, a number of members of the Appropriations Committee asking some basic questions about DOGE engagement with the VA.
11:22At 13 specific oversight questions.
11:26You and I then spoke on May 6th, so we hadn't gotten any kind of meaningful response.
11:34You committed to get me meaningful responses.
11:38I still have not gotten responses to these questions, and I think this is an opportunity to bring transparency to an issue about which there's been a lot of public controversy and concern.
11:49So, I haven't gotten answers to these questions that I asked, and a number of members asked in February, so I want to ask you now, which DOGE personnel have visited VA facilities?
12:06I don't understand the question.
12:08Okay, which DOGE personnel, so personnel who are acting under the auspices or authority of the Department of Emergency, have visited, let's start with VA headquarters.
12:20Are you talking about our liaisons who actually work for the VA?
12:23We have three.
12:24I'm asking which DOGE personnel have visited VA headquarters?
12:30The ones that work for us.
12:31Okay, what are their positions?
12:33Their advisors, they're looking at, through our contracts and stuff like that.
12:36Okay, are they still doing that?
12:38Yes.
12:38Okay.
12:40Have they accessed VA patient medical records?
12:48They are acting in their role as employees, as a normal VA employee would do, and are authorized to do anything that they're currently doing.
12:57And I'll be happy to take these further for the record if you like.
12:59Well, Mr. Secretary, I asked you these questions on February 13th in a letter.
13:04Okay.
13:04It's the end of June.
13:07I mean, you were a member of Congress.
13:09Would that be satisfactory to you?
13:11If I'm offering you a solution, yes.
13:13Well, we spoke in May.
13:14And I'm offering you a solution.
13:16No, come on, Mr. Secretary.
13:17I asked you these questions in February.
13:18We spoke in May.
13:19You said you gave me the answers.
13:20And here you're saying you'll take me to the record.
13:21And in all fairness, you just asked me a question about who DOGE employees walked into my facility.
13:25Don't tell me you're trying to be serious about this.
13:29I mean, what DOGE employees?
13:31No, what I just asked you was have DOGE personnel access to the medical records of veterans.
13:37And I have told you they're acting in the roles under everything.
13:41There would be a lot less concern about this if the answers weren't so cagey on it all.
13:45There's no cagedness to it.
13:46Any VA employee who has access to anything and work at the VA is totally responsible and trained.
13:51Let's work together, Mr. Chairman, to get some clarity on this because I'm not satisfied.
13:55It's been months.
13:56I don't know why there is such a lack of willingness to engage on this topic.
14:01We will follow up, Mr. Secretary.
14:03Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
14:04One thing that's really important, you mentioned that I'm an optometrist, an eye doctor,
14:09and practiced with nine other doctors with the surgery center.
14:13And I really am very familiar with the medical records.
