'Stop Characterizing It That Way!': Maggie Hassan Has Explosive Confrontation With Sec Collins Over VA Cuts

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At today's Senate Veterans Affairs Committee hearing, Sen. Maggie Hassan (D-NH) questioned VA Secretary Doug Collins.

Transcript

00:00Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the ranking member as well.

00:03I'll welcome Secretary Collins.

00:05Thank you for being here today and for your own military service.

00:10And just a note to my colleague from North Carolina,

00:13a lot of us have been working hard on reform at the VA for a long time

00:19and agreed that there need to be changes,

00:22but that is not what my line of question is about.

00:25This is about whether the so-called changes you are already making

00:29are being made with thought and transparency

00:31in a way that will serve veterans the best.

00:34In your testimony, you stated that the VA is an organization

00:37whose sole purpose is to serve veterans.

00:40You've also publicly stated that you plan to fire 80,000 VA employees.

00:45The quote is, that is a goal, that is our target, close quote.

00:49Well, roughly 25% of VA employees are themselves veterans,

00:53meaning that if you do follow through with this plan,

00:56you'll likely end up firing thousands of veterans.

00:58It's also worth noting that the Veterans Health Administration

01:01accounts for nearly 90% of all VA employees.

01:06So if you're firing evenly across the VA,

01:09you'll end up firing roughly 70,000 VHA employees.

01:15So, Secretary Collins, is your goal to fire thousands of VA employees

01:18who work to support and provide health care to our veterans?

01:22Yes or no?

01:22My goal is to make sure that veteran care is done in the best possible way

01:26and putting numbers in place that, of course, you have no blueprint for,

01:29is not helping any veteran in this room.

01:32The numbers that I am talking about are the numbers that exist at the VA now,

01:37and I'm basing my remarks and my questions on your public statements

01:40because we, to many of the other senators' points,

01:43we aren't getting specifics from you or your agency.

01:46Now, how many employees does the VA have that work outside of the Veterans Health Administration?

01:52If you divide it up in the different administrations,

01:55it's the vast majority are close to, what will be the last number, about 350?

02:00So let me answer the question.

02:02Outside of the...

02:03370,000 in VHA, the rest are off of the...

02:06Outside of the VHA, there are 54,000 employees.

02:09It is actually impossible for you to fire 80,000 employees

02:13without firing those who help provide health care to our veterans.

02:17And I'm disappointed that in all this back and forth,

02:20you seem to be trying to hide that.

02:21Senator, can I ask a question?

02:23Can I...

02:24I mean, I just don't want to respond to this because I have a question for you.

02:26My goal is to actually take care of veterans' health care.

02:29And when you look at an interior designer in a hospital,

02:33is that actually taking care of health care?

02:34I don't think so.

02:35Those are the kind of positions we're looking for.

02:37And you have multiple duplicity of stuff.

02:39My point is this.

02:40If there are a few hundred here and there,

02:44but you are talking about 80,000 employees,

02:4854,000 employees work outside of VHA.

02:51So you're going to have to take...

02:55You are taking a meat cleaver approach.

02:57There's that old adage, measure twice, cut once.

03:00You guys have been cutting without measuring.

03:02Now let me get to another question.

03:03Well, I've not cut anything yet.

03:04No one in the trumpet...

03:05Well, you've...

03:06We've not cut anything yet.

03:07We've got 2,500 employees randomly.

03:08There's been...

03:09No one in the...

03:10Secretary, my time is my time.

03:13No one in the Trump administration has been able to explain

03:16how cutting nearly one in five VA employees

03:20won't harm health care and service for veterans.

03:22In fact, just last week,

03:24the VA's head of clinical services,

03:26the top doctor in the entire VA,

03:28came before this committee

03:29and stated that he has not been involved in any discussions

03:33about how firing 80,000 employees would affect veterans' care.

03:37And he had not seen or been provided any analysis

03:41as to how these planned firings might affect care for veterans.

03:45That is the VA's head doctor,

03:47the person in charge of primary care,

03:49emergency medicine, surgery, mental health, etc.,

03:52saying that no one from your team

03:54has even bothered to once ask him

03:57whether firing one-fifth of all VA employees

04:00would make health care better or worse for our veterans.

04:03So, Mr. Secretary,

04:04why haven't you asked the VA's top doctor

04:06whether you plan to...

04:08whether your plans to fire 80,000 VA employees

04:11would harm health care for veterans?

04:13I will not speak for anyone else

04:14who has gave that testimony,

04:16but I will say this.

04:16In VHA, VBA, and NCA,

04:18they all have working groups.

04:19They all have it.

04:20The senior leadership have been working on this process.

04:23Well, this doctor told us

04:27that he has not been involved in any of those discussions.

04:30Recent reporting states

04:32that the Department of Defense

04:33may cut the Army's active duty force

04:35by up to 90,000 soldiers.

04:37To cut the force by that much,

04:39we could reasonably expect

04:40that thousands of soldiers

04:42will end up leaving active duty

04:43and returning to civilian life,

04:45meaning that they will lose their military health care

04:47and will almost certainly turn to the VA.

04:50How is the VA preparing to care for those soldiers,

04:53and how does firing 80,000 employees

04:56support that preparation?

04:58You know, again, the interesting part is

05:00they will be taken care of

05:01as every veteran who's earned the benefit going forward.

05:04I cannot state this enough,

05:05and we can continue this process

05:07with everybody who wants to ask,

05:08and I get it.

05:09But there's not been 83,000 people targeted for firing.

05:12There's been a goal to look at our restructuring

05:14and putting 15%.

05:15It's a nice talking point,

05:18but we've not done anything yet.

05:19It's your talking point.

05:21It is your talking point.

05:21It is our goal.

05:22They're quoting you saying that's the goal.

05:24It is our goal.

05:24Now, okay.

05:25The goal is not a fact.

05:26Do you want to reach your goal or not?

05:28The goal is not a fact.

05:29Most people, when they state a goal,

05:31decide they'd like to reach it.

05:33If you don't want to reach 80,000,

05:35revise your goal

05:36and tell us what you want to do.

05:37Talk to us about the analysis you've performed.

05:39You've got a lot of knowledgeable people

05:41both sides of this aisle.

05:42Both sides of this aisle want to serve veterans.

05:45It is our primary honor

05:46and privilege as Americans to do it.

05:49And we are asking to engage with you

05:51in a way to reform the VA,

05:54improve care,

05:54but make sure that that health care

05:56and those services are there for veterans.

05:59And just tossing out big numbers

06:00and cutting before you're measuring

06:02is not the way to do it.

06:04Thank you, Mr. Chair.

06:05Senator Cassidy.

06:07Can I finish that?

06:08Because, again, this is the part.

06:11Ken Cassidy.

06:13Secretary Collins.

06:14Yeah, I mean, this is the problem that we have.

06:17And this is the problem that I saw

06:19when I was in Congress.

06:20It was a problem that I've seen everywhere.

06:21When we go into something

06:23and you look at it,

06:24you have to go in and look at the process to start with.

06:27You start with a goal.

06:28You start with what you're looking for.

06:29And then you use the data that you find

06:30from your organizations

06:31to make the best choices you can

06:33without a meat cleaver approach.

06:35But when you also start with the premise

06:37that is not true,

06:39a premise that is not going to affect,

06:41and basically saying things

06:42that we're not looking at

06:43because I'm not sure how we get around the fact

06:45that we're not cutting, you know,

06:46the primary health care

06:47of people who are getting it

06:49or cutting their benefits,

06:50that is not helpful in a collaborative process

06:52to say, are we working?

06:53The question I have is,

06:54the VA is not working

06:56in the way that it should work.

06:57I am trying to get it to a point

06:59where it can work for all veterans,

07:00and the workforce is a part of that.

07:02So, I mean,

07:03some think the VA is working undoubtedly,

07:07as I've heard this morning.

07:08It was perfect before this year started.

07:09That's not true.

07:10And, Mr. Secretary,

07:11that is unfair to the members of this committee,

07:13and you need to stop characterizing it that way

07:15because that is not what

07:16a single person on this dais thinks.

07:18Senator Cassidy.

07:19So, Mr. Chair,

07:20I'm just going to say one more thing here.

07:22I am eager to engage in real numbers

07:25and non-magical thinking here.

07:27But you cannot,

07:28this witness and the VA

07:30cannot have it both ways.

07:32They cannot set out a goal

07:33and then get angry at us

07:35for asking what the impacts

07:36of that goal on those cuts would be.

07:39Senator Cassidy.

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