Christian Degree Mills: When Ego Replaces Education in the NAR - Jed Hartley - Detangling IHOPKC 341 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Jed discuss the rise of fake theological degrees in charismatic religious movements, connecting them to deeper issues of control, indoctrination, and hostility toward education. They explore how many leaders in Pentecostal or New Apostolic groups undermine formal academics while handing out unaccredited or self-bestowed doctorates to legitimize their authority. Jed shares his personal experience navigating education after leaving IHOPKC, describing how cult environments discourage critical thinking and instill fear around secular learning, leading many to fall behind professionally or intellectually.  The episode unpacks the historical roots of this distrust in education—tracing it through white supremacy, fundamentalist opposition to evolution, and anti-Catholic rhetoric. John explains how this led to the development of parallel education systems, many of which are not recognized outside their own communities. They expose specific figures like Lance Wallnau, who awarded himself a doctorate from a school accredited by an institution he co-founded. While parts of the conversation are lighthearted and sarcastic, the hosts emphasize the real harm caused by these fake credentials, especially to young people who invest time and money into programs that limit their future options.  00:00 Introduction 01:03 Fake Titles and the Appeal of “Doctor” 05:00 How Cults Discourage Education 10:08 Indoctrination vs. Real College Experience 15:01 The Evangelical War on Public Schools 20:58 Fictional Persecution and Martyrdom Fantasies 26:04 Evolution, Astronomy, and Young Earth Belief 31:02 Ego, End-Times Theology, and Fear of Insignificance 36:00 Diploma Mills and the Rise of Fake Seminaries 42:00 Faith Healing vs. Real Medicine 47:00 Lance Wallnau’s Accreditation Scheme 52:00 The Real Cost: Wasted Time and Trapped Youth 58:00 Final Reflections and Call for Reform  ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:00You

00:00:31Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham historical research

00:00:35podcast. I'm your host John Collins the author and founder of William Branham

00:00:40historical research at william-branham.org and with me I have my

00:00:44co-host and friend Dr. Jed Hartley son of a prophet and former member of the

00:00:49International House of Prayer. Dr. Jed it's great to have you on and to talk

00:00:54about all things IHOPKC and education and doctorates and you know magic

00:01:00doctorates and fictional doctorates and all of these degrees that people give

00:01:05themselves when they don't actually have them. Well I think that's an excellent

00:01:11introduction Dr. Collins. Dr. Collins sounds way more better than Dr. Jed for

00:01:18sure. I suppose Dr. Hartley would be what I would actually go by but yeah when you

00:01:25throw doctor in front of something I get why people I get why people make it up

00:01:30and I get why people want to put that that doctor in front of their name

00:01:36because it sounds good sounds sounds fun. You know it's kind of funny I don't

00:01:41really care you know if my name has it my name doesn't have actually have some

00:01:45titles that I never ever use but I went to college to get my Bachelor of Science

00:01:51so I guess you could say that I'm BS and that's that's probably the best thing

00:01:57although I got my associates and I never actually finished that because education

00:02:02was discouraged in the Branham cults. I don't know if we've talked about this

00:02:07but it plays directly into what we're talking about from a historical

00:02:12perspective so I'll get into that but assuming that I had continued and got my

00:02:17BS I'm John Collins and I'm full of BS. Well as yeah BS is also I also have my

00:02:26degree in BS so I'm here with you. I also I did all of my I don't know if I've

00:02:33said this I'm here I went to I got a master's well I went to a master's

00:02:39program did all my master's coursework was writing a thesis about

00:02:47basically the philosophy of religion had like a mental breakdown because this was

00:02:53before everything that had happened at IHOP had kind of come to the surface and

00:02:59I remember this like two years of just trying to write this thesis being like

00:03:03there's something really wrong I was talking about like the freedom of

00:03:07beliefs and how in certain communities you don't have that freedom of belief

00:03:13and talking about that as like a right like freedom and access to clean water

00:03:19and to food like we talked about these as human rights and and I was I was

00:03:23engaging with that sort of subject and then it became just like too much and

00:03:28too difficult for me and so I kind of put it to the side so I have them I have

00:03:32all of my master's coursework completed and I still have to defend and finish

00:03:37writing my thesis about it before I can get out of where I'm not just spewing

00:03:42BS and I can put an MA in front of my name so working on that one awesome

00:03:50well in the in the Branham cults the education higher education was strongly

00:03:56discouraged in some cases even low-level like there were there were particular

00:04:01sects that the children could not even get an elementary school education

00:04:05because yes of the devil my brother and the history behind it which we'll get

00:04:10into like I said is a little bit fascinating but what what it becomes for

00:04:16people who were allowed to have it in the main sect it was interesting they

00:04:22strongly taught against it until my grandfather who was the pastor until his

00:04:28daughter which is my aunt married somebody with a master's degree and then

00:04:32suddenly everybody can go to college it's suddenly allowed right in in that

00:04:37particular church now outside of this they were kind of frowning upon it but

00:04:42there's there's a high level of double double standards across the whole

00:04:46movement yeah what Cheno and I were talking about recently there's there's

00:04:53this problem when you're in a cult and you're indoctrinated in a certain

00:04:57worldview and you're indoctrinated that outside of this worldview is death and

00:05:03destruction and doom and gloom and you're going to hell well what happens

00:05:07is people kind of bottle up and isolate and they don't experience things outside

00:05:12of this so we heard sermon after sermon of you know it's okay we understand in

00:05:18today's world you must go to college you must get a degree because that's how you

00:05:22and your family survive but oh by the way we see all of these people who go to

00:05:27college and they leave this message my brother yeah yes you know they start

00:05:31talking like there's these demons that are just influenced the whole system

00:05:34yeah which is by design according to the history that we'll get into but what

00:05:40happens is it like for me I really should have finished I should have went

00:05:44on through and maybe one day I will but while I was in it I was in it just long

00:05:49enough to get my job and I was indoctrinated to think that's that's

00:05:52good enough I don't want to go any further I don't need it I have a job

00:05:56yeah yeah and I think that that the way that you are taught and you're situated

00:06:04around education like that never goes away you you feel a lot of your it takes

00:06:10a long time to like retrain your brain to think of these institutions and I I

00:06:17fully agree I maybe it wasn't as like explicit in our community but there was

00:06:24I mean a huge hesitancy towards education in general or particular types

00:06:32of education and I I remember there being a lot of what I now think of as

00:06:38just projection you know because what do people say in these in these sort of

00:06:46insular communities where there are intense sort of religious dogmatic

00:06:51beliefs that you have to adhere to what do they say about education systems they

00:06:59say it's you know if you go to college you're gonna get brainwashed and it's

00:07:04all you know propaganda and it's all this you know and it really is a lot of

00:07:12projection of like what we are experiencing in our community like I

00:07:17remember going and thinking going to college and thinking that I was going to

00:07:24have to like defend my beliefs from an onslaught of individuals who disagreed

00:07:32with me and who were gonna pick apart my faith and like throughout all of my

00:07:37undergrad and my master's there was never one time where I ever had to

00:07:44defend being a Christian I wasn't always a Christian during that time you know

00:07:48like but like certainly when I was in my undergrad I would would consider myself

00:07:52Christian and when I was like there there was never anybody who was like oh I

00:08:01can't believe you believe that like I was in Kansas City like that but half of

00:08:06the people around me were Christian same my master's program I'm doing a

00:08:10master's in philosophy and like of my core cohort like three out of the seven

00:08:17of us or three of we're like explicitly Christian and one of them was even a

00:08:24pastor within and it's just like that there's this idea that you couldn't hold

00:08:30on to Christian beliefs if you went into academia but what the reality was is

00:08:37that you couldn't hold on to cult beliefs as well those were the things

00:08:41that were challenged those were the questions that were raised that critical

00:08:46thinking in general is going to posit because when you have you when you're a

00:08:52part of a community in a system that requires such a specific method of

00:08:57thinking any other method of thinking any other sort of external beliefs will

00:09:03be you know devastating to the sort of integrity of the system because it all

00:09:10falls apart as soon as you're like well does this make sense does this make

00:09:15sense so yeah you know I some of those some of those like like my views on the

00:09:21end times obviously became much more difficult to hold when I went to

00:09:28secondary education and when I started having to like you know we're doing

00:09:36politics and I'm like you know what my my theory that the world is going to end

00:09:41in 2015 and that you know Jesus is going to split the sky and that you know the

00:09:47tribulation is going to start I don't really know how that fits into

00:09:52contemporary secular you know politics and so maybe maybe this doesn't fit well

00:09:59in the conversation that we're having like those are the things where you're

00:10:02like this doesn't work but like yeah it generally was very unoffensive in

00:10:09education and also like they have other things to do and you know the professors

00:10:15there are gonna be like here's some of the things that we believe there but

00:10:19they're interested in just completing the class and doing this like it's a job

00:10:24it's not they're not there to like mold your minds where the community that we

00:10:31were both involved in respectively were very invested in what we thought where

00:10:37it was like critical that we believe the same thing that they believed in

00:10:42secondary education knowing no one cares it just doesn't matter but it took me

00:10:52years to kind of get over that sort of innate prejudice that I had been given

00:10:59towards the education system. The point we're trying to drive at later in the

00:11:02podcast is all of these false doctorates and all of these degrees that they're

00:11:07giving but before we get there we probably should talk through some of the

00:11:10history so people understand what this is and why this is so complex but

00:11:14there's a problem that exists in the cult world and that is control. You're

00:11:22taught from the top down that you must be controlling and so because the cult

00:11:26leader is controlling the parents the parents then become overpowering and

00:11:31overbearing and over controlling of their children and that is by design

00:11:35every cult operates like this. So let me give an example. I'm a father I taught

00:11:43my boys how to throw a baseball like all good fathers should do even though I'm

00:11:47not a baseball fan or I'm not into sports I'm more into music but I taught

00:11:52them you put your left leg forward and then when you throw the ball you step

00:11:56and you put your right leg next right because they're right-handed and that

00:12:00works better and I tell them when I teach my children something I teach them

00:12:05why here's what you do here's why you do it and they learn from it. If I were to

00:12:10take them to say join a league and they have a teacher who's saying all right

00:12:16now we're going to show you how to throw a ball you're gonna put your right foot

00:12:19out first and then step with your left which is awkward. Number one it's awkward

00:12:25the kids going to experience and then decide for themselves no this is

00:12:28ridiculous this doesn't work. Number two I have trained them and because I've

00:12:33trained them they know well this guy this guy doesn't know what he's talking

00:12:36about dad and that's how children work that's how as a parent that's what you

00:12:41do you teach your kids and they learn from you and you don't have to fear them

00:12:46going and learning how to throw a baseball incorrectly because you've

00:12:49taught them right yeah but in the in the cult world they have taken they'll do

00:12:56that with baseball but send them to a church where they're being taught false

00:12:59doctrine they have this fear that suddenly your kids minds gonna be

00:13:03hijacked and stolen and the demons are gonna infest them and plague their body

00:13:08with demons whatever is the weird nonsense because it's so flipped up

00:13:12upside down where in the religious world of cults you must control otherwise

00:13:18everybody is powerless to the demons you've built this fear of being captive

00:13:24by demons held captive right so that problem existed for decades and the

00:13:33history behind it it's very complex I go through it in my latest book from

00:13:36Christian identity to the NAR but multiple streams of white supremacy

00:13:42religion evangelicals fundamentalist multiple streams came together united

00:13:50against the education system white white supremacists wanted to fight the

00:13:55education system because they were obviously in the 60s it was the

00:14:00integration of school as a black or white but before this long before this

00:14:04it was to establish a separation a segregation so the segregation didn't

00:14:10exist widespread so we need to step in and fight the school system you had the

00:14:15fundamentalist who were stepping in because oh my gosh they're teaching

00:14:19evolution in school even if I teach my kids that evolution is not correct

00:14:25according to whatever is your religious philosophy they might accidentally catch

00:14:31the evil spirit of being taught evolution whatever it is and so you had

00:14:36the fundamentalists who were stepping in for an array of different ideologies

00:14:41that they were fighting against then you had Christian identity who was at the

00:14:46same time starting to merge with white supremacy and being taught that

00:14:52Catholicism was the number one enemy and so they were fighting because now you

00:14:57might have Catholics in your school and they might teach Catholic ideas and so

00:15:01they wanted to set up different school systems so all of this laid the

00:15:06background for what we're talking about today what ended up happening is there

00:15:10were many religious leaders that fought education itself we should homeschool

00:15:14for example we should take our kids out they don't need school at all because

00:15:18the Rapture's coming doomsday's day we don't need it so they were fighting the

00:15:23school system in a variety of different ways and some of the figures who were

00:15:29involved with this like Charles Fuller who founded fuller theological seminary

00:15:34from from which there were great figures and charismatic and NAR came out of this

00:15:39he was part of he was a public speaker touring with this fundamentalist league

00:15:46that was trying to undermine the school system and promote Christian identity

00:15:50now I'm not saying fuller theological seminaries like that now but he was one

00:15:55of the key figures and I have some photographs of him at at some of the

00:15:59rallies in in Indiana interesting enough so this was a this was a big big deal

00:16:05and so they started creating these institutions where they could teach you

00:16:10only what they felt was approved by whatever was the cult or you know some

00:16:18of these weren't yet Colts but whatever was the approved doctrines and they

00:16:22started setting up seminaries some of which weren't accredited but you could

00:16:26go get your degree and you could feel comfortable mainly as a parent you could

00:16:31feel comfortable that your kid had a piece of paper that said something

00:16:34whether it was valid or not and that's really the history behind how all of

00:16:38this got started. You can see the convergence of multiple streams

00:16:43contributing to this sort of education hesitancy because it isn't just like

00:16:49like obviously it was the communities the cult communities that both you and I

00:16:53sort of were raised in had this element but it's it's kind of an element of just

00:16:59evangelicalism in general right now I remember the you know the movie God's

00:17:05Not Dead have you ever watched that? I've not seen it but I know what you're

00:17:09talking about. I'll just tell you the plot real quick and it's it's pretty

00:17:14funny but the plot of it is basically there's this young man who's going to a

00:17:24public university that is being taught he specifically he's going I think it's

00:17:30a philosophy class like an intro to philosophy class and the teacher there

00:17:36the professor played by Kevin Sorbo is a staunch atheist and the the conflict of

00:17:45the film is that the professor makes everybody in this like intro to

00:17:53philosophy class sign a document saying that God is dead right he's like well I

00:17:59want to I want to skip this section if we're talking philosophy I want to skip

00:18:04the whole like deus section and just get into the good stuff so he wants all

00:18:12everybody to sign this ridiculous you know paper that says God is dead which

00:18:20okay just as I remember finally studying Nietzsche and reading the whole where

00:18:29that phrase comes because it comes from Nietzsche the like God is dead and we

00:18:33have killed him and it's from the parable of the madman where the madman

00:18:39comes into a market and he's like you know screaming about like God is dead

00:18:43what what fest we've killed God what festivals of atonement now shall we do

00:18:48and it's actually now Nietzsche criticizes Christianity a lot but in

00:18:54that instance he's actually criticizing like the secular moralist of the day who

00:19:01were like we don't need God we have rationality we have our own minds and we

00:19:08have created this world and God is something of the past and so now we can

00:19:12create a perfect society together and Nietzsche is writing this to be like do

00:19:17you not understand that the whole fabric of society is built around a

00:19:20belief in God and this madman is like talking about the collapse of society

00:19:25now that we have killed God so like it isn't even a criticism of Christianity

00:19:32that particular passage so that like the even the using the God is dead rhetoric

00:19:40is is just miss fundamentally misunderstanding the material but the

00:19:44premise is just absolutely insane because never in a million years would

00:19:51that be what happens in a school you never have to sign a document like

00:19:56that's a totally invented conflict like I went to like I said I went to and

00:20:01studied philosophy never well first of all never did they dismiss like deistic

00:20:10beliefs because like a lot of the history of philosophy has been

00:20:17intertwined with like the history of religion like Plato was religious

00:20:21Aristotle was religious Socrates was religious like all of the all of the

00:20:27the Western philosophers were all influenced by Christianity only within

00:20:36like the last hundred years do you even have like more secular non-christian

00:20:43philosophy and like the entire you know Kierkegaard Camus all of these

00:20:50existentialists like talk about religion if they are not explicitly advocating

00:20:55for religion and so this this notion that like the higher education is going

00:21:03to stamp out and require you it's like that I don't know if you grew up with

00:21:08this but in the 90s it was a huge thing where it was like one day you'll be at

00:21:12school and there's gonna be a school shooter who says do you believe in Jesus

00:21:16or do you not and and if you say you believe in Jesus they're gonna shoot you

00:21:21and it'll be great to like die and martyr for Christianity and it's like

00:21:25that's just you're inventing worlds that don't happen like that's just not

00:21:30happening in the United States you know and this whole like martyrdom complex is

00:21:40just fabrication it's just fiction and so anyway this God God is the plot of

00:21:48God is not dead is he does not sign the paper he makes it the the protagonist

00:21:53makes a statement of his belief and that he cannot sign the paper even though his

00:21:59girlfriend is pressuring him to sign the paper and everything and then they

00:22:05they hold a trial where he defends God and the professor accuses God and it's

00:22:11just it's it's so bad it's so bad like it's depressing both from an artistic

00:22:20perspective and from just like a you don't there's plenty of things in the

00:22:26world to be angry and frustrated about there's plenty of things to work towards

00:22:32of like there's a lot of there's a lot of discontent and disarray in the world

00:22:38that you can address and be like we should fix this so why are we inventing

00:22:44problems why are we coming up with issues that just don't exist and making

00:22:49whole fiction narratives to make it seem as if the world that we live in is

00:22:56fundamentally a different world you know that there's this weird martyrdom

00:23:00complex in higher education that is or there's this there's a weird martyrdom

00:23:09complex that says that higher education is like coming after a Christian

00:23:13religion it's just yeah it's ridiculous you know it still goes back to what I

00:23:19said earlier whenever whenever somebody would go to college the ministers would

00:23:24say and we watch brother so-and-so he went to college and he left this message

00:23:29you left the hole what happens and it's very ironic because it's to the

00:23:35detriment of these groups what happens is they create these straw man arguments

00:23:40that don't exist right and when somebody goes and they see the straw man argument

00:23:45first what happens is the indoctrinated fear suddenly hits them and oh my gosh I

00:23:49see the straw man but over time as they begin to understand what the straw man

00:23:54is and how wrong it is then they realize that they were lied to in the

00:23:58first place yeah that's what really opens the door and they many people do

00:24:02leave the cult whenever this happens and that problem has existed like I

00:24:07mentioned the fundamentalist so evolution was the big thing and you know

00:24:12the Snopes the scopes trial the monkey trial all this stuff that was happening

00:24:16right yeah that was just directly mixed into the Christianity of the world

00:24:20before evangelicals became what they are today they were part of this that's how

00:24:25it developed and what's really interesting is since the theory of

00:24:31evolution was declared what I can't remember what year was 1800 something

00:24:36like that sure since that declaration we have actually seen animals that have

00:24:41evolved in different ways you can totally if you want to look at it you

00:24:45can go if you don't believe me you can go to the Google and just type in what

00:24:49animals have evolved since 18 what is it 1850 something like this they're the

00:24:54obvious ones are animals or creatures that are living in darker regions and

00:25:00they're of the nature where they have to be camouflaged to survive well right

00:25:05their skin color changes and their tones that everything changes about them or

00:25:10what's another good example the elephants and their tusks so there are

00:25:15tuskless elephants right we're starting to see these changes these adaptive

00:25:20changes and this happens all across wildlife what's really interesting is

00:25:25you find people who were hardcore against evolution who actually mentioned

00:25:32that in certain aspects that we were seeing things evolve which is a total

00:25:37contradiction and to the person who's critically thinking well wait a minute

00:25:41they're saying on the one hand that evolution doesn't exist and we should

00:25:44fight it and on the other hand they're saying that they have seen it and

00:25:47they're giving examples of it which do we believe this is a straw man and the

00:25:53other good one so the young earth theory I know that I know that most of our

00:25:59audience is going to condemn me just because I talked about the young earth

00:26:02theory but if you ever ever watch cosmos the way they explain it and especially

00:26:08the Neil deGrasse Tyson reboot of cosmos there are things about it that are just

00:26:13undeniable in the way that it is presented and the way that he presents

00:26:19it is we look out at the stars and we see all the planets and he gives this

00:26:24like this calendar of when the world when the earth began the time in which

00:26:30it would take from the light which is a constant to go from the star to us is

00:26:35constant we know that measurement the star would have actually burned out by

00:26:39the time it hit our eyes to look at it and so when you think about all of this

00:26:44being created you really have to go back to okay how did all of this come to be

00:26:50when God you know if you believe Genesis and you believe that that is a literal

00:26:54interpretation God created all of these things well for them to for the people

00:27:00to have seen them in the early books of Genesis and they saw the stars those

00:27:05stars would have taken so many years to hit their eyes so there becomes this

00:27:10conundrum right how do you explain the days in Genesis versus how do you how

00:27:14did the light hit them and to a I'll go back to my baseball example if I were

00:27:20teaching my kid the young earth theory in this case I would say now we know

00:27:25that God created everything and we created the light he created the light

00:27:29beams too and the light beams were just on the sharp of hitting us right and

00:27:32then when the kid goes to school he's not afraid that somebody's gonna teach

00:27:35something wrong but what these guys did in the fundamentalist groups no and

00:27:40they're going to teach science and that science is going to contradict our

00:27:43worldview so therefore they can't go at all have you ever wondered how the

00:27:48Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism

00:27:52transitioned through the latter reign charismatic and other fringe movements

00:27:57into the New Apostolic Reformation you can learn this and more on William

00:28:02Branham historical research's website William dash Branham org on the books

00:28:07page of the website you can find the compiled research of John Collins Charles

00:28:12Paisley Stephen Montgomery John MacKinnon and others with links to the

00:28:17paper audio and digital versions of each book you can also find resources and

00:28:23documentation on various people and topics related to those movements if you

00:28:28want to contribute to the cause you can support the podcast by clicking the

00:28:32contribute button at the top and as always be sure to like and subscribe to

00:28:37the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching on behalf of

00:28:41William Branham historical research we want to thank you for your support even

00:28:46before the recent sort of like questions of how of evolution and like how old the

00:28:52earth is and stuff what was the what was the one before that you know it was

00:28:58it was whether or not the earth revolved around the Sun or the Sun

00:29:04revolved around the earth and like you could be you know excommunicated for

00:29:11advocating for what a heliocentrism or or you know the belief that the solar

00:29:17system is the Sun is at the center and we're not at the center of it and I

00:29:24think that that there's a spectrum of this and and I people are gonna be

00:29:32challenged by the thing that I'm saying not everybody's gonna love what I'm

00:29:35about to say right now but there is a lot of egoism in especially cult

00:29:41Christianities right because it's we are a part of the end times church we God

00:29:48has spoken to me it's very God through me through my community through my place

00:29:56in time and it's very the history of the universe all coalesces in me as an

00:30:03individual and my church as an individual like that is the that is the

00:30:08International House prayer narrative that's the message cult like the belief

00:30:14that you know all of all of these different Elijah's that that came to be

00:30:21and in the sort of roots of the Pentecostal Church of like I am I've

00:30:26read the Bible and I am continuing the spirit of one of the great leaders of

00:30:32the past like this is this very like egoistic you are at the center of the

00:30:39whole narrative of the universe sort of thing and I've talked about that in the

00:30:43past but when you get into education especially science one of the biggest

00:30:49things that you learn is that you're not that big of a deal like you just aren't

00:30:54the center of the universe there are other cultures there are other people

00:30:59groups there are billions of people on this planet there was a recent study

00:31:03that was even just like hey we've probably underestimated how many people

00:31:08are on the planet because we fundamentally underestimated rural

00:31:12populations and that there could be as much as like 10 billion people on the

00:31:16planet instead of just the 8 billion so the world is like in of itself much more

00:31:23vast much more eclectic much more diverse in its thinking and experiences

00:31:30than we are led to believe and then the universe is larger I mean every every

00:31:36millennia there's a discovery of science that's like oh oh my goodness the

00:31:42universe is so much grander and more expansive than we thought it was and we

00:31:47are a dot in a speck of a molecule within the vast ocean of the universe

00:31:55and that is not I think that that's something that a lot of people really

00:32:02struggle to believe like that's just it doesn't and I think that that totally

00:32:10and perfectly coalesces with a view of a great gut like I don't think that those

00:32:14two things have to be opposed that you can believe in Christianity and believe

00:32:19in God and still understand the vastness of the universe and the relative

00:32:24insignificance of your human life you know in a cosmic scale like those those

00:32:32things don't have to you know it's like one of the great paradoxes of religion

00:32:38is like you both are of the utmost importance and you are a drop in the

00:32:44bucket like it's I think that there's something beautiful to that but in order

00:32:49to push away these uncomfortable notions of insignificance we have villainized

00:33:02scientific and academic research that just deals with reality just deals with

00:33:09the fact that we're in a big vast open world and universe and we aren't that

00:33:15you know separate in some ways from the other animals that roam this planet that

00:33:21you know we evolution this idea that we came from monkeys and it's like well

00:33:26which that's not what evolution posits we didn't evolve from monkeys but that's

00:33:32a different thing but you know that it's just the uncomfortability it's only

00:33:37absurd because it makes human beings feel less significant but that's the

00:33:45only reason that it's absurd it's just because you know we couldn't be the same

00:33:49and for a long time people thought it was absurd you know race races weren't

00:33:55the idea that this race could be just as intelligent as this race was like you

00:34:02know a lot of there's a lot of racism that like saw different races as

00:34:08fundamentally different and we're so aghast by like the differences in to

00:34:14believe that we're just one race among many in the world and not to compare

00:34:21that to like you know evolution or so like I'm just the sort of like dealing

00:34:27with the insignificance that your culture your community your people group

00:34:32your you know even human beings in general earth in general is not like the

00:34:40only thing that exists in the universe it's just a hard pill for a lot of

00:34:43people to swallow and I think a lot of these you know it's a spectrum of it but

00:34:51a lot of these cult communities that are super egoistic that really need the

00:34:57narrative of the universe to coalesce in their story are fundamentally fall apart

00:35:04when you bring in the light of of just the reality of other belief systems and

00:35:08so I get why they're threatened by it like I get why I was taught to go to the

00:35:15IHOPU or to go to the YWAM University or to Bethel those were the the schools

00:35:22that I should go to instead of going to you know a public university because all

00:35:30of those universities will will not threaten this belief and I say

00:35:38universities very loosely because you know they weren't great academic

00:35:46institutions but all of these churches and church colleges would not threaten

00:35:53this idea that like IHOP is the forerunner church that's bringing in you

00:35:59know is at the forefront of the end of the known world like that wasn't gonna

00:36:06be challenged if I went to YWAM or if I went to Bethel and so I totally get why

00:36:12they feel threatened by it but they should be threatened by it because it's

00:36:17a bad it's a bad belief system and anytime you get out of the like wings of

00:36:23the dogmatic egoism of those communities you realize how like silly they are and

00:36:31so that's the that's the challenge it's funny whenever I listen to you talk

00:36:36because I also record with Bob Scott many of the things the themes that he

00:36:41brings to the show they cross over with some of the things that you say very

00:36:45frequently we'll have conversations he and I just recorded one when did we

00:36:51record I guess it was two days ago we recorded talking about the how the these

00:36:57cults are indoctrinating people to everything is always about me and what

00:37:02what they're doing is basically they're indoctrinating a you know a narcissistic

00:37:08personality disorder and among the people it's it's me it's me it's me give

00:37:12me give me that kind of thing and it's showing its way through society

00:37:17everybody's posting these selfies now and back you know 20 years ago people

00:37:21would laugh at you if you're doing this what why you I don't want to see more of

00:37:25you I want to see the world I want to see other things but that's how today's

00:37:30world has become and it's very weird but one of the other things that he talked

00:37:34about you're you were talking about the race theories etc a lot of people don't

00:37:39realize this but even in mainstream not not religious centered institutions they

00:37:48were teaching eugenics which is basically this false notion that you can

00:37:52take races and you can improve the human race by selective breeding and a

00:37:57bunch of nonsense when you combine that with the white supremacy with the

00:38:01Christian identity and all these other things that are flourishing this was a

00:38:04this was toxic and yet it was widely believed and now obviously it's not

00:38:10taught in the school as people realize that no this is this is a little bit

00:38:13wrong yeah but that's what was happening in this era and many of the leaders who

00:38:19were founders of the charismatic movement came out of that type of

00:38:23environment and it's not really their fault they were just they were raised in

00:38:27this environment where people truly believe that they should have selected

00:38:30breeding it's a really weird mess but what happened was like I said the

00:38:36history brought it to the point in which they were so hardcore against the

00:38:41education system especially in the 60s during civil rights that they started to

00:38:48try to create ways to circumvent the education system right one of the ways

00:38:54they did this was these theological institutions and it was a I don't know

00:38:59if it's a widespread problem but they were springing up these institutions

00:39:03that were somewhat outside of the US legal system because you there's a

00:39:09separation of church and state so I can create a religious institution you can't

00:39:13stop me I can give them a degree you can't stop me but the problem was it it

00:39:18was not accredited so people got a piece of paper and you know there's this real

00:39:23gray area back then yeah he's he's got a degree well does he really and what's

00:39:29interesting is before that became as widespread as it did there were

00:39:34significant figures in latter rain that were claiming to be doctor and they were

00:39:40nothing yeah many of them did not even go to these things to get their fake

00:39:44degree they were just they were knowledgeable and so they got the

00:39:47nickname doctor and among the movement the nickname was just as powerful as

00:39:53having the actual piece of paper because we don't need the paper the world is

00:39:57ending we're gonna go into the next world so that's that's what William

00:40:01Branham's publicist quote-unquote dr. Lee Vale the one who basically all of the

00:40:08literature that we have today he was a strong proponent in helping organize and

00:40:13create that and swaying the movement and many were various ways he was not a

00:40:18doctor but his nickname was dr. Lee Vale so then William Branham and Gordon

00:40:25Lindsay started holding these seminars where you could go and get trained on

00:40:30quote-unquote deliverance how to cast out demons and all this stuff well they

00:40:34give you a certificate and that became as powerful as actually I would say

00:40:39argue that among the movement it probably became more powerful than

00:40:43having an actual doctor's degree because now you could go to any church in the

00:40:48entire community and I know how to cast out demons I have this power now because

00:40:52I went to the school and that developed into this weirdness today where you know

00:40:57people are getting these degrees that mean nothing nothing at all but within

00:41:02the movement itself it is powerful yeah and it is it is sort of like just a

00:41:09brash like who's gonna put it on their resume and who won't you know because

00:41:14it's not everyone has the audacity to do these things like not everyone there's a

00:41:22lot of people who understand this even within the community who would be like

00:41:26I'm not gonna put doctor I'm not gonna be dr. Hartley if I didn't do my

00:41:31doctorate you know but it goes it goes with I think a lot of the history of the

00:41:38the charismatic and Pentecostal movement where you have faith healers who are

00:41:43sort of taking the role of doctors and and denying so in the similar sense in

00:41:51which you would have these faith healers who are like don't go to doctors like

00:41:55Jacko was one of these and we spoke about him a couple couple episodes ago

00:42:02but he would tell people not to go to doctors and a lot of these different

00:42:07faith healers would say the same and they sort of took this medical or

00:42:15pseudo-medical anointing and were like come to us and you'll get healed don't

00:42:22go to the doctors to get healed come to us and so it's sort of the co-opting of

00:42:27the the medical profession without doing any of the like rigor of the medical

00:42:33profession and I understand having hesitancy and being like all the the

00:42:39medical profession doesn't always get it right there's you know I get being like

00:42:43we're over prescribing these things you have to do the work I don't understand

00:42:48this I like why I grew up in a community that was like good hard work

00:42:54don't cut corners no participation trophies like this was the mentality

00:42:59that I grew up with and the rhetoric that I was being taught and like as a

00:43:04good you know Christian conservative Midwestern individual it was like you

00:43:09got before you get the reward you got to put in the work you can't just have a

00:43:13microwave generation you know where you get things instantly and then on the

00:43:19other end I realized like that's just all we were doing with the the community

00:43:24you had people who were practicing medicine or practice you know having

00:43:30their own sort of alternative medicine or their healing or something like that

00:43:35they were preaching without studying the Bible they were you know putting doctors

00:43:43in front of their names without actually going to do the you know four

00:43:48years of undergrad and then the however long seven years in total eight years

00:43:54however long it takes to get your PhD they just weren't putting in the work

00:43:58they could have put in the work those were those options were available for

00:44:04them they could do this but instead it was just like because they disregarded

00:44:09and devalued the institutions that weren't directly created within

00:44:16our sphere they had this notion that you could just create whatever you wanted

00:44:22and you could hand out titles and and again super egoistic super narcissistic

00:44:28view of just being like well I am smart so therefore I should be a doctor and

00:44:34I've done the work like I've read all of these different books so I've I should

00:44:38be a doctor and it's just like no there's a reason why like the label

00:44:45becomes really meaningless and ridiculous and this was a problem back

00:44:50in the early 1900s where people were practicing medicine and never studying

00:44:55anything and like there there was reasons why the there were sort of rules

00:45:00put around these systems and then you have people now who like so I'll

00:45:06probably tweet something before this this episode comes out I'll put a good

00:45:12Twitter thread together because I've been wanting to do this for a while and

00:45:16so I'm gonna reference it here and if people want more specifics they can go

00:45:20to my Twitter and it will be I will have this information first time I've ever

00:45:26plugged myself it feels weird I don't like it but there's a man named Lance

00:45:33Wall now you know John do you know who Lance Wall now is I do I haven't

00:45:38published much about him because I kind of avoid the living whenever I'm

00:45:41publishing about yeah but I know I was a very very outspoken supporter of

00:45:47William Branham's ministry so I I do go there sometimes yeah and he and he kind

00:45:52of became famous because he had some prophecies about Trump or something and

00:45:58during the first election and and so he kind of rose to prominence for a while I

00:46:04don't know how prominent he actually is it's hard to tell with some of these

00:46:08guys whether or not they matter at all within the community or whether they're

00:46:14just you know loud online but he's certainly loud online and I was looking

00:46:24up some of his stuff a little while ago and I noticed on some of his books it

00:46:30was Dr. Lance Wall now and I was like what what did he study and so I went to

00:46:39his Indeed page and and this is why people should look at the Twitter

00:46:45because I'll have it more specifically and detail it but I followed his Twitter

00:46:50page or sorry I went to his LinkedIn page and I like saw the institution that

00:46:56he said that he got his PhD from and I went to their sort of thing and it was

00:47:02like they had pictures I remember going to the website and they had pictures of

00:47:07like this big university campus and I was like I've never heard of this

00:47:13university come to find out that that the pictures of the university campus

00:47:18was like Arizona Theological Institute or something like a totally different a

00:47:23totally different institution and they just like rent out one of the rooms to

00:47:28give their diplomas out like that's the so they like have this big picture of

00:47:34the institution but like they only just like rent once a year a conference room

00:47:39to like give out the diplomas and I I'm sure that the Bible school like just

00:47:47doesn't even know that they're using those pictures and then and and on it

00:47:53I'm reading through and I'm like okay well it seems like it's an accredited

00:47:57thing it might be a small school and then I'm looking at the accreditation

00:48:03and I was like what is this accreditation program because like you

00:48:08know years ago people started making their own institutions and then it was

00:48:14like okay well they're not accredited and so that what they've started to do

00:48:17is make their own accreditation institutions and so lo and behold I go

00:48:26to the accreditation institution and I like read about the accreditation and

00:48:32the one of the founders of the accreditation you you know institution

00:48:38is Lance Wall now so he created the accreditation program that accredited

00:48:44the the school that gave him his own doctorate degree and if you read their

00:48:53sort of like method of doing it is they give like basically honor it honorary

00:48:59doctorate degrees to people who have written books and like then they give

00:49:04out degrees to people who read those books and and who minister with them and

00:49:09stuff like that so it's just like you know it's just a circle of people who

00:49:14like all are congratulating each other without any sort of rigor like I from

00:49:22what it seems like Lance could have done absolutely zero coursework or any

00:49:27research outside of his own like writing his books to actually get this PhD

00:49:34and and he's I mean even if he even if he did do work for it you can't be the

00:49:45founder of the accreditation program who who accreditates the school that then

00:49:50gives you the PhD like that's just you can't do that you got to go out

00:49:54elsewhere you know like you can't you can't you can't forge your own degree

00:50:00and put it up on the wall and and it's one of those things because it's like

00:50:03you know we deal obviously both you and I John have like done research I mean

00:50:09you far more than me but we've spoken about people who are doing some pretty

00:50:14horrific things in this world like the Mike Bickles who are preying on people

00:50:19or even like my father who's doing like fraud in a way that is very insidious

00:50:24and stuff like that and I don't really know what to make of the Lance Wall

00:50:29now's because it's like should he be in prison for forging his PhD I don't know

00:50:37I don't think so is it really really really ridiculous yes absolutely and

00:50:46does it like contribute to why like when when the Christian community is like we

00:50:51are persecuted no one takes us seriously and academic institutions and it's like

00:50:55this is why like if you if you're like oh I went to this institution and I

00:51:01went to I hop you and none of my credits transferred over to UMKC when I was

00:51:09doing this and they don't respect this and it's like yeah people don't respect

00:51:13it because shenanigans like this are going on and no one's no one's holding

00:51:19them accountable like like I said earlier not everyone has the audacity to

00:51:23of a Lance Wall now to just like put doctor in front of their name and to

00:51:28like create this convoluted scheme it almost would be better if he didn't

00:51:32create the the institutions and like this this like workaround like it would

00:51:39almost be better if he just was like I don't respect academic stuff so I'm just

00:51:44putting doctor there because it would be like a little bit more transparent but

00:51:48the whole like dog and pony show of creating this institution and so it's

00:51:53like they know they're lying because if you weren't lying you wouldn't put the

00:52:01picture of the university that you're not a part of on it like you wouldn't

00:52:05put the bit like if you were just like oh we're a humble group of individuals

00:52:09and this is that you know I'm pretty sure that they this is another level but

00:52:15like I started I started getting in the weeds but like some of the people who

00:52:20are even on the board I'm not entirely sure if their pictures weren't just AI

00:52:24generated it's who that's a different level I'm not sure that was that's me

00:52:30getting my like red thread and pictures and up against the wall but I mean

00:52:35regardless you know the smoking gun of course is just Lance name being on the

00:52:40very accreditation thing that he's a part of but it's just yeah like I said

00:52:47it's just very silly and it undermines the like respect of the community at

00:52:52large you know because it's just what are we doing what we're not trying we're

00:52:58not trying hard we're not thinking we're not engaging in critical thought we're

00:53:02not attempting to I mean you have the whole of all of you know Western history

00:53:08you have some of the greatest thinkers of the world were within the Christian

00:53:12community we're like the greatest artists of the world were the Renaissance

00:53:18itself was like inspired by Christian and Catholic thought like there doesn't

00:53:24need to be this hyper separation between the rest of the world and us and the

00:53:35more that we create these insular communities the more we get these weird

00:53:41convoluted messed up doctrines with these you know con artists who are

00:53:50leading these just very unchecked and on like zero accountability systems and

00:54:01institutions I feel like we have come full circle in this podcast because at

00:54:06the beginning I said that I almost had BS but if I were to do this if I were to

00:54:10set up some sort of a fake picture and maybe in it yeah but it raises the

00:54:15question if I did it and then I said that I had BS what I actually have BS or

00:54:20would I have more BS or would I have less BS that's the question I have no

00:54:24idea how to answer that yeah yeah and I think if there's like I know that we

00:54:29were both being a little like self-deprecating and making jokes about

00:54:32having you know BS degrees but like I do think that there is something about being

00:54:37like humble about your education and like I mean I so my partner is works at

00:54:44as a professor at University of Illinois and like she's done the work she's she

00:54:51is done her post you know she got her doctorate she did her postdoc and my

00:54:58education compared to her education pales in comparison and it's good for me to be

00:55:03reminded and humbled all the time of just being like damn she's smart and

00:55:08like she's had to work for it and like if if I you know I'm proud of the fact

00:55:15that I got you know I graduated with honors in my bachelor's degree and like

00:55:20I'm frustrated that I didn't get haven't finished my master's yet but I will and

00:55:25and like and I completed my master's coursework and did great like I'm proud

00:55:30of the education that I've done but like I will I recognize that it is it is

00:55:36not significant in academic worlds because there's just people have to put

00:55:42in a lot of work to separate yourself from the rest of the group you gotta

00:55:46like really roll up your sleeves and you gotta get to work and there's no other

00:55:51way around it and I really respect the people who have done that and not all of

00:55:56them we've all met people who have PhDs through you know prestigious

00:56:01universities who you're like I don't know how they slipped through the cracks

00:56:05you know like that it's not I don't want to like glorify or not pretend like

00:56:09there are still a lot of problems with like academic institutions of course

00:56:13there are but there something happens when you fail to respect worlds and

00:56:21institutions outside of your community and it will just set up this sort of

00:56:27dogmatic situation where like you have to and your children have to and their

00:56:33children have to hold this sort of prejudicial view of the rest of the

00:56:39world otherwise the whole power and structure of your community falls apart

00:56:44and it's very different than the like I taught my kids how to throw a baseball

00:56:48and regardless of wherever they go it's this works for them this is the

00:56:53mechanics that work it's like you know you have set them up for failure and and

00:56:59now they don't you know it'd be like teaching them how to throw a baseball

00:57:02where you have to do some religious you know pre you know like like the

00:57:11basketball free throws you know how they all have their routines like that if you

00:57:15instead of teaching someone how to shoot a basketball we're like okay you

00:57:19have to spin the ball three times do this and stuff like that you're setting

00:57:23them up for failure because if they you know go to any other world they're gonna

00:57:28be like yeah you know shot clock violation you can't do that every single

00:57:33time it's it's just this sort of like creating these sort of dogmatic beliefs

00:57:39and and routines and systems that just fundamentally fail in any sort of outside

00:57:45world and then demonizing the outside world for that rather than recognizing

00:57:51the insufficiencies of the community that you yourself have created and lived

00:57:55in. Well I can tell you didn't get your doctor's degree from one of the

00:57:59credited NAR institutions because you spin it seven times not three times if

00:58:04you want the actual glory of God to come down on the baseball. That would make way

00:58:08more sense of course. So so much more we could say about this but I think people

00:58:14get the point there's this is this is not right what is happening this is a

00:58:18this is a little bit of a mess and it is still going on so. One last thought too

00:58:22of like we didn't hit on it we hit on it in previous ones but like it also then

00:58:27leads to really sad situations of young adults getting wrapped into these

00:58:33institutions that are created that are phony institutions that don't give you a

00:58:39whole lot of life experience or knowledge don't have you know they're

00:58:44not useful the degrees are not useful in any community outside of that community

00:58:48and so you're then tell you know fallacy of sunk costs you're now like well I

00:58:54can't leave the International House of Prayer because my degree is only valid

00:58:59here and like maybe a few other sort of cult-like religious communities and it's

00:59:06really heartbreaking I know that a lot of people myself included who like that

00:59:11that was the first you know I went to YWAM and I did this like my first foray

00:59:16into the academic world was through these phony sort of religious

00:59:21institutions and you have to it sets you behind in your career if you're wanting

00:59:31to ever branch out of that world if you want to be anything other than like a

00:59:35missionary or other than a prayer leader at IHOP you know it sets you

00:59:41behind and I'm feeling that and I know that a lot of other individuals are

00:59:46feeling the the cost of that so as much as like the Lance Wallnau thing is silly

00:59:52and ridiculous and we can kind of just like shrug our shoulders at it and be

00:59:56like this is dumb I don't know why he does it it lends to this sort of more

01:00:02predatory system where young adults are think that they are going to institutions

01:00:12that are if not prestigious at least competent you know believe that they are

01:00:18doing giving a proper sort of like investment of their time and money and

01:00:24of course it isn't well now you've talked me into it next time we're gonna

01:00:29have to go deeper into why wham it's about time we probably need to address

01:00:36it yeah yeah all right well let's do it if you've enjoyed our show and you want

01:00:41more information you can check us out on the web you can find us at William dash

01:00:45Branham org for more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation you can

01:00:49read weaponized religion from Christian identity to the NAR available on Amazon

01:00:54Kindle and audible

01:01:54you

Christian Degree Mills: When Ego Replaces Education in the NAR - Jed Hartley - Detangling IHOPKC 341

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