ROZHOVORY - 20 - O rakúskych a EÚ odboroch - video Dailymotion

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Transcript

00:00:00Hello everybody, here is Michael from the New Left and today we have a new guest. We

00:00:19are talking with Sofia Rizeka. Sofi, can you please introduce yourself?

00:00:26Yeah, sure. So my name is Sofia, I'm based here in Vienna, in my office, I'm a trade

00:00:32unionist, I'm working for the white collar trade union GPA. So we're representing workers

00:00:37in different sectors in private industries. So for instance, in commerce, in finance

00:00:42industries, but also in pharmaceutical industries and automotive industries, for

00:00:46instance. And my job is to represent our trade union movement in Europe, and also to

00:00:54support works council members, trade union members with international relations.

00:00:58Okay, thank you. Can you introduce GPA to Slovaks? Because well, you know, trade unions

00:01:05in Austria, it's a big unknown, I would imagine. So what is it about when it started? How did

00:01:12you end up in the union?

00:01:14You know, sure thing. Maybe I start by explaining that in Austria, we have one trade

00:01:22union umbrella organization is called the Austrian Trade Union Confederation, in short,

00:01:28OGB, the OGB. And under this umbrella, there are different trade unions representing

00:01:34different kinds of workers. So we have unions that are in charge of public servants, we've

00:01:39got other unions that are in charge of blue collar workers, sort of traditional blue collar

00:01:44workers, mainly in manufacturing industries. And then there is GPA. And this is the only

00:01:51trade union in Austria representing white collar workers in the different sectors and

00:01:55industries. But we all one trade union family, so to speak within one umbrella organization,

00:02:00the OGB. So we're not really competing with each other, it's quite clear which trade union

00:02:06is in charge of which workplace, which kind of worker and what kind of contract. And we're

00:02:11cooperating within the OGB, of course, on political issues to represent the workers

00:02:15interests as a whole, towards the government and employers organizations, so to speak.

00:02:21So how many trade union associations are there in Austria altogether, just to get into

00:02:27perspective, as far as I know, in Slovakia, we have 26 such organizations. So when you

00:02:32say GPA focuses on white collar workers, that means doctors, I don't know, teachers,

00:02:40nurses, and so on, everything that is white collar, or, you know, where are the hazy?

00:02:47I get it. Yeah. So there are two trade unions in the public industries and public servants.

00:02:54These represent, for instance, as I mentioned, the teachers or the nurses in public hospitals,

00:02:59for instance. So two trade unions in charge of all of the public servants. And then we have

00:03:05got the blue collar workers that we've got one organization, ProGAPE, representing the

00:03:11manufacturing industry. So very traditionally, the workers in automotive industries, and the

00:03:21well, also in technologies, when that's what electronics to produce them. So this is one,

00:03:27then the second trade union in charge of blue collar workers is the Bauholz. So they're the

00:03:33construction workers, quite clear, I think, who they represent. Then we've got postal workers as

00:03:40well. It's a bit of a mixture of public and blue collar workers. And then we've got the WIDA. WIDA

00:03:49is a mixture or actually a merger from different trade unions, representing mainly the railway

00:03:56workers, and also in hospitality, so in hotels, restaurants, so these workers are covered by WIDA

00:04:05as well.

00:04:06So all together, how many trade union associations are there in Austria?

00:04:10Seven.

00:04:10Seven, only seven.

00:04:12Okay, only seven compared to Slovakia. There used to be much more trade unions in Austria in the

00:04:19past. So for very, on a sectoral level, during the decades, they merged, exactly. So, for instance,

00:04:28GPA, well, we represent white collar workers, meaning in banks and sales, for instance, in the

00:04:35retail. So when you go to a supermarket, those workers are represented by GPA as well. Then white

00:04:42collar workers, as I mentioned, for instance, in pharmaceutical companies, so scientists, so to

00:04:48speak, but also other types of white collar workers. So just to give a few examples whom we

00:04:55represent. But we also have finally a few blue collar workers in our trade union, because about 20

00:05:01years ago, GPA merged with the former printers and journalists trade union, because printers, they

00:05:10used to be a really strong and proud trade union, but the industry is in decline for decades. So they

00:05:16lost a lot of memberships because they simply weren't any workers anymore in the printing sector.

00:05:21And that's why they decided to rather merge with another trade union, because it's better to be

00:05:25together to be a bigger organization, a strong organization to represent the interests, also

00:05:31because of course, the funding is getting less when you've got less members. So in Austria, we

00:05:36usually fund ourselves as trade unions solely on membership basis. So every trade union member pays

00:05:431% of the salary as a monthly fee to the trade unions. And this is the basis on which we work. So

00:05:50my salary is actually financed by all of the trade union members in GPA.

00:05:56This is the discussion I want to have with you. We know the differences between Austria and

00:06:00Slovakia here, obviously, is one difference that we are running 26 union associations, maybe 25,

00:06:08maybe 27, but something in the ballpark. And you are at seven, which is obviously quite less. And as

00:06:16far as I know, the penetration in Austria density somewhere around 30%. So three zero, correct me if

00:06:23I'm wrong. But that's what I heard all together, all of Austrian workers. So roughly one third is

00:06:30unionized. And now the question is about the collective bargaining agreements and the art of

00:06:36the way how collective bargaining agreements are negotiated in Austria, because that's a big

00:06:43difference. Compared to Slovakia, you don't have any minimal minimum wage set up by government, we

00:06:49do. And when people are talking about Austria, our direct neighbor, and we used to be for hundreds of

00:06:56years in the same kind of Reich or whatever. So you know, there is certain affinity towards Austria,

00:07:02people get confused about this collective bargaining agreements and this minimal wages

00:07:06because it's a different model. So if you could please explain it a bit how GPA, for example,

00:07:12negotiates this minimal wage, is it then set up for all of GPA members? Is it set up for all of

00:07:19the industries? You know, nitty gritty details, how it's got done, because it's something totally

00:07:25different to Slovakia. I agree, not only totally different to Slovakia, but I think most countries

00:07:32are unique within Europe. As far as I know, only you and the Danish don't have minimal wage,

00:07:40but the Denmark, or how to put it, but unions negotiate the minimum wage in this collective

00:07:46bargaining ground. So if I'm wrong, then I apologize. But you are pretty unique, as you said

00:07:53yourself. So when it comes to to legal statutory minimum wages, when a government sets minimum

00:07:59wages, there is just a handful of countries in Europe where there's no such system. This is,

00:08:04as you said, Austria and also Denmark, so there's Scandinavian countries, also Sweden, for instance,

00:08:10they don't have a statutory minimum wage. And Italy doesn't have one either. And in all of the

00:08:17other countries in Europe, it is normal to have this statutory minimum wage where the government

00:08:21sets the minimum level. In Austria, we, to put it bluntly, never needed it. This is a very...

00:08:30You needed it, but you achieved it differently, I guess.

00:08:33We didn't need a statutory minimum wage, because we have a different framework. And this was set

00:08:38up over 100 years ago, actually. So after World War One, you know, back then, it was two main

00:08:46political powers, the conservatives and the social democrats. And they represent

00:08:52fundamentally similar interests as the employers and the trade unions. And back then, we set up a

00:08:59system of based on social partnerships. So we call it the social partners, employers and trade unions,

00:09:06they are social partners, they negotiate. So on the one hand, on wages, for instance,

00:09:13on working conditions, but they also represent the interest towards the government. But let's

00:09:18leave the government part out for now. Let's focus on a collective bargaining. The very

00:09:25great thing we have is a legal framework that allows us to negotiate on sectoral level,

00:09:33together with the employers on the other side. And basically, the legal framework says that

00:09:39every employer in Austria is obliged to be a member of the so called Wirtschaftskammer,

00:09:45the Chamber of Commerce. So we have a legal representation of employers on the one side.

00:09:52And on the other side...

00:09:53Sorry to jump in, obliged means everyone has to be there. Everyone has to be there.

00:09:57Everyone.

00:09:58And they also have to pay a certain membership fee. And the duty, of course, of the Chamber

00:10:03of Commerce is to represent their interests.

00:10:05So sorry again to jump in. So that means if you want to run a business in Austria,

00:10:09you have to be a member of this...

00:10:11Exactly.

00:10:11Okay, got it.

00:10:12Even if it's just one person being active in this company. So if you set up a company

00:10:19to sell something or to do some services in the IT sector, for instance, then you set up a business.

00:10:26And with this business, you are obliged to be a member of this Chamber of Commerce.

00:10:29And pay membership fee and be part of it.

00:10:33And in case your company grows and you have an employee or two or seven,

00:10:40then you have to pay them according to the respective collective agreement.

00:10:45Because the Chamber of Commerce together with the trade unions negotiate collective agreements

00:10:51on the industry level, more or less. And they apply to all of the workers in this industry,

00:10:57whether they are a trade union member or not.

00:11:00They have a right to have this kind of minimum wage set by the collective agreement.

00:11:06So this is one part...

00:11:08When you're talking about this, as you said yourself,

00:11:11GPA is amalgam from multiple trade unions.

00:11:15So you actually negotiate multiple minimal wages for multiple industries?

00:11:21Or how is it done in GPA?

00:11:24Exactly. So collective agreements in Austria usually are negotiated on an annual basis.

00:11:30So we don't set up one collective agreement and it's just the same minimum wage forever.

00:11:39So different industries have different minimal wages depending on the negotiation.

00:11:45In some industries, the union is stronger, so they get more.

00:11:48In some it's weaker, they get less, something like that.

00:11:51Yes. So we have within GPA, we have about 170 different collective agreements.

00:11:57And of course, other trade unions have a number of collective agreements as well.

00:12:02So it's a jungle of...

00:12:04OK, OK. So it is a jungle.

00:12:05200 or 300 collective agreements all together.

00:12:09And then probably there is only one minimal minimum wage.

00:12:12So, you know, all the other wages, in my own logic,

00:12:15has to be bigger than the minimal wage of whatever the industries

00:12:19where the minimal wage is the lowest, yeah?

00:12:23Well, that's quite simplifying it.

00:12:26Yeah, well, I'm trying to understand it so the audience understands it.

00:12:30Yeah. Indeed, there are different levels of minimum wage varying from the sector.

00:12:34So when you start working for an automotive metal industry company, for instance, as a worker,

00:12:41probably your wage will be higher than when you start working in retail, in a supermarket.

00:12:48Because they are... Well, the union density varies in these sectors.

00:12:53And we have stronger representation of trade unionists in the metal industries,

00:12:59meaning we have more power as a trade union to show the employers that

00:13:04if they don't raise the wages, then we can go on strike.

00:13:08There are a lot of trade union members willing to go on strike to get a higher level of payment.

00:13:13In the retail, in the supermarkets and other retailers,

00:13:19it is more difficult to have trade union members.

00:13:22They often change jobs much more often during their lifetime than in metal industries, for instance.

00:13:28So it's more difficult to build this kind of trade union power.

00:13:32So when we negotiate the wages for commerce, for the retailers,

00:13:39then we can't really threaten the employer with having a strike,

00:13:43because probably we won't have enough people involved to actually go on strike

00:13:47or only in a few companies or for a short time.

00:13:51So we have different levels of minimum wages across the sectors in the different industries.

00:13:56That's something that you said, and I agree with that.

00:14:00But we coordinate as trade unions.

00:14:03We've got one umbrella organization, as mentioned earlier,

00:14:06and we set our goals and part of our strategy together.

00:14:11So, for instance, we have set a goal years ago

00:14:15that there shouldn't be any minimum wage below 1,700 euros per month.

00:14:23So we usually count as a monthly wage.

00:14:27And this was the goal set.

00:14:29And all of the negotiations tried to achieve this goal.

00:14:34This did not work out in all of the sectors within one year.

00:14:37Sometimes it took two years or three,

00:14:39but we really managed to step up the whole minimum wage issue through negotiations

00:14:45through a period of a few years.

00:14:48And now the last goal was to exceed 2,000 euros per month.

00:14:53So in theory, when you are full-time employed, so 30 hours or 40 hours per week,

00:15:01and you work, whether it be in retail or in metal industries,

00:15:04you should gain at least 2,000 euros per month.

00:15:09But of course, in some of the industries that are better organized,

00:15:12the minimum wage level still is much higher,

00:15:15but we're pretty much trying to push from the bottom.

00:15:19Question, when it's such a jungle of 170 only in GPA,

00:15:23so I imagine around 300 negotiations,

00:15:28are the minimum wages somehow transparently somewhere on the internet

00:15:32so that you know that this industry set up a minimum wage,

00:15:36I don't know, whatever, and I want to go somewhere, obviously,

00:15:40where I can make the choice where the wages are higher.

00:15:43So is it like disclosed or are all these negotiations somehow,

00:15:48you know, kind of secret or how it's done?

00:15:51Well, the negotiations themselves, they take place.

00:15:54The results of the...

00:15:56And the results, sometimes you can find a collective agreement on the internet,

00:16:01sometimes you don't.

00:16:03Because this is something where we trade units, for instance,

00:16:06decided that we don't want to make all of the collective agreements public

00:16:11so that our trade union members have kind of an extra service

00:16:17that they receive the collective agreements.

00:16:19But if you're not a trade union member,

00:16:21then it's not as easy to find or maybe even impossible to find an internet.

00:16:26Because collective agreements, it's not only wages.

00:16:30It's a lot of other stuff as well.

00:16:32I mentioned earlier, full-time employment, 38 or 40 hours per week.

00:16:38So legally, the full-time work week is 40 hours.

00:16:43But in a lot of collective agreements,

00:16:44we managed to have a 38-hour work week, for instance,

00:16:48or in some others, even lower, 37, 37 and a half.

00:16:52So collective bargaining means negotiating wages,

00:16:56but also negotiating working time and negotiating a lot of other issues as well.

00:17:01So, for instance, the period of termination could vary

00:17:07from collective agreement to collective agreement,

00:17:10or that you get some extra benefits, some extra vacation days

00:17:16when you, so we've got some collective agreements, for instance,

00:17:19when your kid starts school, that you have an extra vacation day or two

00:17:23that you can transition, that you can manage to transition better.

00:17:27So in some collective agreements, there are some extras

00:17:30or some details that are not covered in other collective agreements,

00:17:34which makes it quite a complicated legal text as well.

00:17:37So it's good to have trade unionists to interpret it for your individual case.

00:17:41But these are sometimes really thick kind of folders or booklets

00:17:46with a lot of regulations that are valid for your workplace.

00:17:49Another question about these negotiations,

00:17:52when I was talking to this lady from Verdi,

00:17:56she told me that Verdi is trying to negotiate

00:17:59something extra for the union members,

00:18:01like extra vacation days, stuff like that.

00:18:04Does GPA do something similar?

00:18:06Because I was surprised in Slovakia,

00:18:09we play this game, at least when I am working as a trade unionist,

00:18:13that everyone gets the same, yeah?

00:18:15Doesn't matter whether you are in the trade union or not.

00:18:18This negotiation applies to everyone in the company.

00:18:21So, well, I was actually inspired.

00:18:25This is a good strategy to kind of motivate people

00:18:28to become a member of the trade union.

00:18:30So how is it done in GPA?

00:18:32Do you have this kind of game to get something extra for the members?

00:18:36No, this really is valid for all of the workers in the industry.

00:18:42It doesn't matter if you're a trade union member or not.

00:18:44You get the wage raise, you get the other definitions.

00:18:48Obviously, there is a certain bottom that is valid for everyone,

00:18:51but when they negotiate something extra only for the members,

00:18:55like as Silke said, extra vacation days, stuff like that,

00:18:59because, well, it looked like, yeah,

00:19:03that's something we should be striving for,

00:19:05so that we increase the membership base.

00:19:07It definitely is a strategy that many trade unions use,

00:19:10or the systems in the different countries vary here as well.

00:19:12In Austria, we don't do it.

00:19:14We really negotiate for all of the workers,

00:19:16and there are no extra benefits for trade union members

00:19:19via collective bargaining.

00:19:20Of course, there are some extra benefits as a trade union member.

00:19:25For instance, you have got a question,

00:19:27a legal question about your situation,

00:19:29or if the termination was correct,

00:19:32or if you should receive more money.

00:19:34As a trade union member, you can come here to the trade union,

00:19:37or just phone them and ask the question.

00:19:39You will receive an answer and some legal counsel for free.

00:19:44If you're not a trade union member,

00:19:45you, of course, don't have this possibility.

00:19:47So, this is kind of the difference in the services, of course,

00:19:50and the interpretation of the collective agreement.

00:19:52But when it comes to rights through the collective agreement,

00:19:55we don't do this, but it's true.

00:19:57Other trade units in other countries, they do this.

00:20:00Yeah.

00:20:02Another thing I wanted to discuss with you is

00:20:04how GPA is running things,

00:20:06because when I'm talking to trade unionists in Slovakia,

00:20:10we have a different model than GPA has,

00:20:12or Verdi, or the other trade unions I spoke with recently.

00:20:18And that is the strategy in Slovakia,

00:20:21is that the money stays at the company level,

00:20:24at the union company level,

00:20:27roughly 70-30 split is done there.

00:20:30And only 30%, 3-0, go to the trade association

00:20:36or the union association,

00:20:37and 70% stays on the company level,

00:20:40whereas in Austria or Germany,

00:20:43and that's the discussion I wanted to have with you,

00:20:45how is Europe set up,

00:20:47and where are the differences between these different approaches,

00:20:50how to run a trade union, a big one in country.

00:20:53Because, well, there is something that,

00:20:56or this is something that you are doing differently in Austria.

00:21:00If you could please explain this in more detail,

00:21:03how it's done.

00:21:03And one question where it leads to,

00:21:07as far as I know,

00:21:08GPA has around 200 or 300 employees,

00:21:11something in that ballpark.

00:21:12So if you could comment on that,

00:21:14because when you put it into perspective

00:21:15with our biggest trade union,

00:21:17which is running less than 30, 3-0 employees,

00:21:22so it's the magnitude of 1000%.

00:21:25So that's a lot,

00:21:26if it's really 300 employees for GPA.

00:21:30A bit less, but about that, indeed.

00:21:34In Austria, as I mentioned earlier,

00:21:37every trade union member pays 1% of the salary.

00:21:41So this is, we don't really have a flat rate, so to speak,

00:21:45because as I mentioned, in retail, for instance,

00:21:47you earn less, and in other industries, you earn more.

00:21:50So to have some relativity here.

00:21:52And these membership fees, they go directly to...

00:21:55Sorry to jump in.

00:21:56This 1%, is it paid by the member,

00:21:59or is it paid by the employee?

00:22:01Not obviously, but whether it's disclosed

00:22:04and the company is paying it,

00:22:06and they know that this person is a member of the union,

00:22:09because in Slovakia, in some unions,

00:22:11it's not secret and the company pays it.

00:22:14And in some companies, it's secret

00:22:17and proactively the member has to pay.

00:22:19And then there is the question,

00:22:23because when you don't disclose your salary,

00:22:26you can pay less because no one can control you.

00:22:29So how it's done in Austria.

00:22:31Of course.

00:22:32Okay, then let's start here, maybe,

00:22:34before we go into the financing debate.

00:22:36No, this is interesting for folks to know,

00:22:38and for me as well, how you're doing things, no?

00:22:40What are the differences?

00:22:42So you're not obliged to tell your employer

00:22:45that you're a trade union member, of course.

00:22:47And in many cases, people want to feel protected

00:22:49and don't want the employer to know

00:22:51that they're a trade union member.

00:22:53But in many companies,

00:22:54we have a kind of an agreement with the company.

00:22:57That they subtract the trade union fee

00:23:04from the salary and bring it to the other company.

00:23:07So automatically, the company.

00:23:08Exactly.

00:23:09Okay, okay.

00:23:10But this is only in a few companies

00:23:11where we have an agreement

00:23:12and a good understanding with the management.

00:23:16In other companies, it's really an individual payment

00:23:19by the member from their bank account,

00:23:21so to speak, to the trade union bank account.

00:23:24And there, to a certain degree, of course,

00:23:26we have to trust what they're telling us their salary is.

00:23:30Okay, then it's totally the same approach as in Slovakia.

00:23:34Okay, got it.

00:23:35I just thought that maybe it's disclosed

00:23:37and maybe everywhere it's automated,

00:23:39because, well, whatever.

00:23:40That's what I was asking.

00:23:42Okay, and now about the other things that I was asking.

00:23:46And, well, the whole fee gets to the GPA bank account.

00:23:50And a little, we have to pay a little bit

00:23:53to our umbrella organization, to the OGB,

00:23:57because they don't have members themselves.

00:23:59We, as trade unions, have the members.

00:24:02So we pay a little bit to the OGB

00:24:03to co-finance the umbrella organization.

00:24:06Percentage-wise, if you can disclose it.

00:24:08I don't know.

00:24:09Okay, okay.

00:24:11But the majority really remains within GPA

00:24:17and not on a company level or someplace else,

00:24:20but it's the trade union.

00:24:23There is, well, a little budget there.

00:24:28When I was speaking with Verdi a few days back,

00:24:31they had roughly 450 million euros

00:24:34from membership role payments.

00:24:38And as far as I know, IGEM Metal

00:24:40has around 600 millions from membership.

00:24:44I don't know what GPA is getting,

00:24:45but probably not in this ballpark.

00:24:48But it's not like 1,700 euros, yeah?

00:24:51So when you can pay almost 300 employees,

00:24:55then it's a nice lump sum of money.

00:24:58I can't tell you about the budget details,

00:25:00but indeed, a lot of our resources

00:25:05go into staff, into employees of the trade union,

00:25:10which is important because I mentioned earlier,

00:25:12what we are selling are our services as well.

00:25:16So it's collective bargaining,

00:25:17but trade union members get a certain service.

00:25:19So we have a structure that we have,

00:25:24of course, the headquarters here in Vienna.

00:25:26That's where I'm employed.

00:25:27But in every so-called Bundesland,

00:25:30so in all of the regions in Austria,

00:25:31we have smaller offices as well,

00:25:34which is important because members or works councils,

00:25:37and we can speak about the role of works councils

00:25:39later on as well, they have questions.

00:25:42They need assistance, legal support, strategy support.

00:25:47Whatever.

00:25:48And here, the local offices step in.

00:25:51So it's much easier to have a local office in every region

00:25:54and to speak to the company representatives locally

00:25:58than doing everything just from Vienna.

00:26:00Austria is a very small country.

00:26:03Nevertheless, when you drive from one end to the country,

00:26:06to the other one, it will take you hours.

00:26:08So you have to have this local representation.

00:26:10So how widely are you spread?

00:26:12As far as I know, you have eight Bundesländer?

00:26:15Nine.

00:26:16Vienna as well.

00:26:17Okay, so only nine offices are all in all in Austria.

00:26:21It's not like it goes to some bigger cities

00:26:24and there is another office.

00:26:25Nine offices, that's how it's set up.

00:26:27It depends on the region.

00:26:29So we have got some regions that are larger

00:26:31where we have even smaller offices

00:26:33somewhere in the periphery as well.

00:26:35But basically, in every region, we have one office.

00:26:40At least one office is there.

00:26:42Okay, got it.

00:26:43Yes.

00:26:44And then we've got the headquarters

00:26:46where, of course, the usual things

00:26:48but what our private company is doing.

00:26:50So when you've got your IT infrastructure,

00:26:53your accounting, these are the typical services

00:26:56that usually take place in the headquarters.

00:27:00But something that we have in the headquarters

00:27:03as well as on a regional level

00:27:04is to have lawyers, legal experts.

00:27:08When we assist members to go to court

00:27:10because the termination was not correct

00:27:12or they have been discriminated against,

00:27:14then they get assistance from trade union legal councils,

00:27:17from lawyers, and they, of course, cost some money.

00:27:23Which is why it's important that we have the money

00:27:25as a trade union organization

00:27:28that we can finance this stuff.

00:27:30And it's easier to have it in-house,

00:27:32to have legal experts in-house employed by GPA

00:27:35than paying an external lawyer to do all of this work

00:27:38because it's far more expensive

00:27:40and they're not that specialized in labor law

00:27:43and in worker representation interests as we are.

00:27:48So I think this is really a strong call

00:27:52to have solid finances as a trade union.

00:27:54Question about the amount of lawyers

00:27:56you're actually employing.

00:27:57What is it?

00:27:58Couple of dozens or only just a few heads?

00:28:00A couple of dozens.

00:28:02I don't really have the answer.

00:28:04I guess, I don't know exactly,

00:28:06but it's like, it's not like it's one dude

00:28:10somewhere in the corner crying

00:28:12because he's overworked all the time.

00:28:15Because in Slovakia, it's the case.

00:28:19Poor boy or girl.

00:28:21Well, it is what it is.

00:28:22This is how it's set up in Slovakia.

00:28:24That's why we are having this discussion

00:28:26to see the differences

00:28:27and what are the benefits of this different setup

00:28:30that Austria is running.

00:28:31Sure.

00:28:33And also we've got so-called trade union officers

00:28:37or secretaries.

00:28:38They are in charge of different companies.

00:28:40So they're the ones liaising

00:28:42with the Works Council members.

00:28:44They're trying to help negotiate

00:28:46on a company level and so on.

00:28:48So these are not necessarily lawyers,

00:28:50but they, through experience,

00:28:52learned a lot about labor law as well.

00:28:55And then we have, as a type of employment,

00:28:59we also have youth officers, for instance.

00:29:02So as SKPR, we really try to organize

00:29:05young people as well.

00:29:06So we approach people in schools,

00:29:09but especially on universities

00:29:11and young workers in the workplace

00:29:13to attract them to the trade union

00:29:15to explain why it's important to be organized.

00:29:18And these are youth officers.

00:29:20So in every region,

00:29:21we have got at least one youth officer as well,

00:29:23really targeting young workers,

00:29:26which can pay off.

00:29:27For instance, I was organized

00:29:29when I joined the trade union when I was 15.

00:29:32It was a very long time ago.

00:29:34And I stayed.

00:29:35So I stayed as an activist for over a decade.

00:29:38And at some point, I got a job offer

00:29:40to work for the trade union.

00:29:42And so I'm still here 20 years later.

00:29:46So this really is a strategy

00:29:48that can pay off as well.

00:29:49But of course, it costs some money

00:29:51to have these youth officers as well

00:29:55in our structures.

00:29:56And I think because we were speaking

00:29:58about collective bargaining earlier,

00:30:00something that is important to mention

00:30:01is that we also have a collective bargaining department.

00:30:04So there is a handful of colleagues

00:30:06in charge solely of collective bargaining

00:30:08on the sectoral level.

00:30:09They, of course, have to cover different sectors

00:30:12and collective agreements.

00:30:14But we have our experts

00:30:16that have been working in the same sectors for years.

00:30:18So not a collective agreement very well,

00:30:21negotiating these collective agreements

00:30:23on an annual basis.

00:30:25Okay. And the question I have about these lawyers,

00:30:29because this is interesting,

00:30:30because I know the situation in Slovakia

00:30:33that the lawyers that are usually

00:30:37often used by Slovak unionists

00:30:41are working also for the employers.

00:30:44So how is the situation in Austria?

00:30:46I assume, but that's why I'm asking the question.

00:30:49My assumption is that the lawyers

00:30:52that you are using at GPA

00:30:54are solely lawyers for the union.

00:30:56And if such a lawyer would go to an employer,

00:31:00then I guess he or she will be terminated.

00:31:04Tell me otherwise.

00:31:05That's why I'm asking.

00:31:06But certain conflict of interest is seen in Slovakia.

00:31:10And I imagine you are more strict

00:31:13than we are in Slovakia.

00:31:14Or maybe not.

00:31:16Look, it depends.

00:31:17So of course, if it's our in-house lawyers,

00:31:20they are here only for the trade union.

00:31:22Sure, they're not going to represent the company.

00:31:24So they are employed by GPA or by another trade union.

00:31:28They are our workers.

00:31:29So that's their job.

00:31:30That's a job description.

00:31:32But I don't want to exaggerate.

00:31:35Of course, we can't handle everything in-house.

00:31:37So sometimes we have to give a case

00:31:41to a law firm, to a law office as well,

00:31:43because it's very complicated.

00:31:46We need someone to really push it.

00:31:49Sometimes law firms also have better connections

00:31:52to follow up.

00:31:54So there are some cases

00:31:55where we also cooperate with law firms.

00:31:58And sure, there are some law firms

00:32:01that are more trade union friendly

00:32:03and others that are more employer friendly.

00:32:05But in general, law firms are law firms.

00:32:07So they take a client, whomever they take.

00:32:10So of course, with them, sometimes it can happen

00:32:12that they have different cases

00:32:15or that we work at some point with a lawyer

00:32:17that ends up in company law later on in his career.

00:32:22But this is not really the norm.

00:32:25So we have some trusted law offices, of course,

00:32:28with which we've been cooperating for a long time.

00:32:32Still, it's a private industry.

00:32:34They can do what they want.

00:32:35They have their clients.

00:32:35There are grey zones, but you prefer not to have

00:32:37these grey zones, something like that.

00:32:39Yeah, OK, gotcha.

00:32:41And the discussion I wanted to have with you

00:32:43is about the European level of trade unions,

00:32:46because, well, you are responsible

00:32:47for the European contacts

00:32:49and actually pan-European contacts,

00:32:52as far as I know in GPA.

00:32:54So if you can disclose what you learned

00:32:59about the European Union,

00:33:00about the post-communistic countries

00:33:02and Western countries, where are the models?

00:33:05Because as far as I know, but that's the question,

00:33:08the Slovak model isn't unique only in Slovakia,

00:33:12this 70-30 setup that said majority of the money

00:33:15stays on the level in the company.

00:33:20How is it in other countries?

00:33:21And I'm specifically interested in Slovenia,

00:33:25because Slovenia has the best unionization

00:33:29from post-communistic countries.

00:33:30So my guess and suspicion is that

00:33:33they have a different model, but maybe not.

00:33:36Please tell us what you know.

00:33:42The history of trade union movement

00:33:44is very different in all of the countries.

00:33:46And the systems nowadays are the result of decades

00:33:50and hundreds of years sometimes,

00:33:52and also of cultures.

00:33:54I mentioned at the very beginning of this interview

00:33:56that in Austria, we have got a social partnership.

00:33:58So the aim is that trade unions and employers

00:34:01negotiate and find a compromise.

00:34:04Compromises are not always easy and nice,

00:34:07but this is the way we do it in Austria.

00:34:10In other countries, it's much more about conflict.

00:34:14So for instance, in France or in UK,

00:34:21no, sorry.

00:34:27So for instance, in France or in Italy,

00:34:30and also in the United Kingdom,

00:34:32the history of trade union movement

00:34:34came from much more conflict.

00:34:35And in order to negotiate,

00:34:38they need to start a conflict,

00:34:44a strike or some kind of action

00:34:46to actually get to the negotiation table.

00:34:49So this is a completely different way

00:34:51to approach things than we do it in Austria, for instance.

00:34:54So starting at the negotiating table

00:34:56or starting with conflict.

00:34:59And another thing that is quite different

00:35:01in these countries is that,

00:35:03or in some countries is that

00:35:05we've got different trade unions

00:35:07that are also in conflict between each other.

00:35:09So in Italy, in France, for instance,

00:35:11you have got political trade unions.

00:35:13They originated from anarchist groups,

00:35:16from communist groups, socialist groups, Christian groups.

00:35:18So they originated from a very political background.

00:35:24And of course, they're not as strongly anarchist

00:35:27or communist nowadays

00:35:29as they were probably 120 years ago.

00:35:32But still there are different trade union confederations

00:35:36with different points of view,

00:35:38how to approach things,

00:35:39how to negotiate or even to negotiate with the government.

00:35:44And they are also in a workplace.

00:35:48There are different trade unions present.

00:35:49So it can be that there are two, three,

00:35:52or even seven different trade unions

00:35:54represented in one workplace, in one company

00:35:58with a number of members,

00:36:00which is not going to happen in Austria.

00:36:02Actually, this is not going to happen in Austria

00:36:05because you're also centralized.

00:36:06Now, when you have only seven union associations,

00:36:09that this conflict of interests are non-existent,

00:36:12I would imagine.

00:36:13Exactly, yeah.

00:36:14And about decentralization in other countries,

00:36:17Austria is like the best practice, the decentralization.

00:36:21But seven is, well, compared to Slovakia and 26,

00:36:26it's quite centralized.

00:36:27So how is it when you compare yourself with other countries?

00:36:31Are you kind of on the top of centralization

00:36:34and the conflict of interests is minimized

00:36:37or how does it look?

00:36:41Yes, of course, there's, yeah.

00:36:43There are different systems, for instance,

00:36:45in the Nordics, Scandinavian countries,

00:36:48they have three,

00:36:51it's usually about three umbrella organizations.

00:36:54So different trade unions,

00:36:56but they are not in conflict at all

00:36:57because they represent different types of workers.

00:37:00So public workers are in one confederation,

00:37:05private industries are another confederation.

00:37:07And then there's a third one for academics, so to speak.

00:37:11So they have three different umbrella organizations,

00:37:14three different confederations,

00:37:16but they're not really competing against each others,

00:37:18but they're cooperating.

00:37:19So it's simply a different approach

00:37:21with a similar result as in Austria,

00:37:24but still there are different trade units

00:37:26existing in a parallel.

00:37:29Also on workplace level,

00:37:30which can happen in Austria as well,

00:37:32but it's quite clear which union is in charge

00:37:34of what kind of work contracts.

00:37:36Okay.

00:37:37So again, the question,

00:37:38so Austria is as centralized as it gets,

00:37:41or is there some country that is even more centralized

00:37:44than Austria is?

00:37:45I can't answer that.

00:37:46You don't know?

00:37:47Okay.

00:37:48I think it's difficult to say

00:37:50because centralized is also a question

00:37:53how to interpret, how to define it.

00:37:56So when it comes to competition or how clear it is,

00:38:00which trade union is in charge of what kind of workers,

00:38:06it is rather clear.

00:38:07There are still gray zones,

00:38:08but this is valid, I think, for all of the countries.

00:38:11Even if it's quite clear,

00:38:12there are still some gray zones.

00:38:14And this 70-30 kind of setup that we have in Slovakia,

00:38:18what do you know about other post-communist countries?

00:38:21Is it the case everywhere or are there any exceptions?

00:38:25As I said, my suspicion is that Slovenia is different,

00:38:28but correct me if I'm wrong.

00:38:31I think in Hungary,

00:38:32they have seven confederations or so, for instance,

00:38:36but this is changing not really on a daily basis,

00:38:38but more often.

00:38:40So we have the situation in a lot of post-communist countries

00:38:43that there are more than one trade union confederation

00:38:48and some have just been established in the past few years.

00:38:52So there's not really a history of organizing there.

00:38:58And then in my experience,

00:39:00but it's not valid for all of the countries, of course,

00:39:03is that there used to be quite a clear definition

00:39:07what trade union is in charge of what sector.

00:39:10And this has been softening a bit

00:39:12also because the economy developed

00:39:14and the traditional sectors don't exist this way anymore.

00:39:18And Slovenia really managed rather well in these transitions

00:39:22and they have had quite a high coverage

00:39:25of collective bargaining for a very long time,

00:39:28a rather good trade union density as well.

00:39:31But I think what is really helping in Slovenia as well

00:39:35is that there is an acceptance of trade union

00:39:39and of these negotiations also on the national level.

00:39:42So there is a kind of a council with employers and trade unions

00:39:50which is involved in all of the political discussions.

00:39:55So when the government wants to change the law

00:39:58for pensions, for instance, or for care,

00:40:02then they have to negotiate with employers

00:40:05and with the trade unions

00:40:07how this legal document is going to look like.

00:40:10So they have a really crucial role

00:40:13in the whole policymaking process as well.

00:40:15A really well-established on this level.

00:40:19And well, they therefore also have an influence.

00:40:22So this model of kind of social partnership

00:40:25but in a different way is well-established there.

00:40:28And Slovenia is doing marvelous.

00:40:30Also, when you look at economic data, it's doing good.

00:40:33They've got a good collective bargaining coverage.

00:40:37It is a small country with 2 million people.

00:40:39They are not outlier.

00:40:41They are the best from post-communistic countries by far.

00:40:44And when I remember the data correctly,

00:40:47they are about 80% coverage of collective bargaining agreements.

00:40:51So this kind of push that is coming from European Union

00:40:56to increase the collective bargaining agreement coverage,

00:40:59they don't even need it because they're already there.

00:41:01So there are only a couple of countries in European Union

00:41:05that are above this threshold of 80%.

00:41:08And they are one of them.

00:41:09Just for the viewers that don't know,

00:41:11Slovakia is at 25%.

00:41:14So there is a lot of potential to go up to 80.

00:41:19And something that I always...

00:41:20Sorry for jumping in here.

00:41:22But traditionally, it's rather the public sectors

00:41:25that have a collective agreement.

00:41:26So especially in the ex-communist countries,

00:41:31usually it's still the public sectors,

00:41:33public servants having a collective agreement.

00:41:36But when you look in the private sectors,

00:41:39there is nothing there at all,

00:41:40or whatever there used to be.

00:41:42Nothing is too strong.

00:41:45It's too strong.

00:41:46But when we speak about 25%,

00:41:48when you subtract the public servants,

00:41:51there is just a very small margin

00:41:53being left over for the private industry.

00:41:55So that's what I'm trying to push here.

00:41:57So it's not meaning that really,

00:41:59it's fairly distributed this way.

00:42:02That's the irony of post-communistic countries

00:42:05that we embrace the anarcho-capitalist mindset

00:42:13mega strongly.

00:42:15And the old capitalist countries are nowadays

00:42:19more socialists than we are nowadays.

00:42:22So it's kind of ironic.

00:42:24When you look at the data,

00:42:25when you look at the penetration in unionization,

00:42:28when you look at the, I don't know,

00:42:30the taxation and stuff like that,

00:42:32and then progressive taxes,

00:42:35that's not even discussed in Austria,

00:42:38all the other post-capitalist or capitalist countries

00:42:42or Western countries in Slovakia or wherever.

00:42:46Flat tax was a big thing for a couple of decades, actually.

00:42:51And so on.

00:42:53It's mega interesting dynamic

00:42:55and cultural shifts that happened.

00:42:59But socialism also stops quite soon

00:43:01when it really comes about taxing the rich, for instance.

00:43:04So we have progressive tax systems in Austria,

00:43:08but it's mainly the workers paying

00:43:10really the majority of taxes

00:43:12by different means, of course.

00:43:14But still, when you look at companies,

00:43:17when you look at the super rich,

00:43:18so when you have got more than 1 million of euros,

00:43:21for instance,

00:43:22then you don't really pay a lot.

00:43:25Inheritance taxes.

00:43:26So when it comes about distribution and justice,

00:43:30there is a lot of room for improvement.

00:43:34I wanted to talk about another topic,

00:43:36and that is the penetration of the unions

00:43:39in Austria and in other countries

00:43:41and the differences that you have seen

00:43:43in your earlier travels and discussions with unionists

00:43:46and the, I don't know how to put it,

00:43:49the willingness or unwillingness

00:43:51of the workers in different countries

00:43:53to be in a trade union.

00:43:54Because when you take as a best example,

00:43:57as far as I know,

00:43:57it's Iceland with 92%, nine, two.

00:44:01So almost everyone is in a trade union.

00:44:04And you go to Slovakia,

00:44:06the last data, official data is 8.7.

00:44:148.7 compared to 92,

00:44:16there is, it can go only up.

00:44:18And the question is, what do you think?

00:44:21Why are there these differences?

00:44:23What do you, I imagine in Austria,

00:44:25it declined as well.

00:44:27What was the highest peak of unionization

00:44:29in Austria when you know,

00:44:30because we were at 65% when I know the data

00:44:34correctly in Slovakia.

00:44:37I'm sorry, I can't really tell you

00:44:38the highest peak we've had in Austria,

00:44:40to be honest.

00:44:41But roughly, was it about 50% or 60% or 70%?

00:44:43Similar to the UK, it would be the 1980s.

00:44:47But what was it in UK?

00:44:50I think in the UK,

00:44:52it would have been the 1960s.

00:44:53But apparently, according to Google,

00:44:55it was when it reached a peak

00:44:57in the 1980s in Austria.

00:44:58And what was the percentage?

00:45:00Do you know?

00:45:01I don't, sorry, I don't know.

00:45:02Okay, okay.

00:45:05Now, please.

00:45:06But I think the question is a difficult one

00:45:08to answer because it does.

00:45:12If it were easy, I wouldn't have to ask.

00:45:14My opinion on this is that you can't,

00:45:20as Sophia hinted, said before,

00:45:23each country has got a different history

00:45:26as to how it comes to trade unions.

00:45:28And therefore, the history

00:45:31and the historical success of trade unions

00:45:34in the past plays a big part

00:45:36in the culture of individuals.

00:45:38So if there've been big successes

00:45:40with trade unions in Iceland,

00:45:42hence the willingness of people

00:45:44to join them and the recognition.

00:45:46And similarly, in the UK,

00:45:49and as they are attacked

00:45:51and lose their influence,

00:45:53similarly, hence the decline.

00:45:56So often the willingness

00:45:57of the political parties

00:45:58to support trade unions

00:46:01or the trade unions give their votes

00:46:06to the political parties that support them,

00:46:09then similarly, it will have a knock-on effect

00:46:11on the people's acceptance

00:46:14of those movements.

00:46:16Now, as far as I know,

00:46:17about Scandinavia...

00:46:18There isn't such a political party

00:46:22or legal movement

00:46:23recognizing the value

00:46:25of collective agreements in Slovakia.

00:46:26And hence, who is joining?

00:46:30By, you know, what are they for?

00:46:32What are they going to achieve?

00:46:33What have they achieved?

00:46:34If they achieve successes,

00:46:36then there would be a consequent

00:46:38growth in membership.

00:46:39Now, that's the discussion

00:46:40we were having

00:46:41in the first part with Sophie,

00:46:43that the setup of Slovak unions

00:46:46and setup of the unions

00:46:47in most, or maybe even

00:46:49all post-communist countries

00:46:50is kind of different

00:46:52than in Western countries.

00:46:53And the setup kind of plays

00:46:56a big part on the successes

00:46:58or the lack of that.

00:47:01The thing I wanted to jump in

00:47:03and kind of introduce

00:47:04is that, as far as I know,

00:47:06Sophie, this is the question,

00:47:07that the Scandinavian model

00:47:08is unique in that sense

00:47:10that the unemployment insurance

00:47:14is kind of tied

00:47:15to union membership.

00:47:16That's, at least, correct me

00:47:18if I'm wrong,

00:47:18at least that's what I understand

00:47:20is the reason why

00:47:21the penetration is so high.

00:47:23Because if you want to be insured

00:47:25for the unlucky instance

00:47:28of unemployment,

00:47:29then you have to be in the union,

00:47:31as far as I know.

00:47:32So it looks like a model

00:47:34that kind of works

00:47:35if you want to have

00:47:36high penetration in unions.

00:47:38Right.

00:47:40And, well, again, different systems,

00:47:44different histories,

00:47:45different futures.

00:47:46Yeah, but we should talk

00:47:47about the ideal

00:47:48where we should strive to,

00:47:50and not about the complicated life.

00:47:52No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:47:54Now I have to interrupt you here

00:47:55quite strictly.

00:47:58There is no ideal.

00:48:00I'm always highlighting this.

00:48:01I'm an idealist, Sophie.

00:48:03No, there is no ideal.

00:48:04There is not the one perfect solution

00:48:07and trade union set up

00:48:08because there are these differences

00:48:11in the different countries,

00:48:12in the history.

00:48:13And I would not like to have

00:48:16political trade unions in Austria.

00:48:20One reason is that this is

00:48:22one of the lessons learned

00:48:23from World War II

00:48:24as a trade union movement

00:48:26that we decided to have

00:48:27one umbrella organization,

00:48:28not political trade unions,

00:48:29because in the 30s,

00:48:30they were divided.

00:48:31So they got the communist

00:48:33trade unions first,

00:48:34and then it was the Social Democrats

00:48:36and so on.

00:48:37This was the idea.

00:48:38We will never be divided

00:48:39as a trade union movement,

00:48:41but it works very well

00:48:42for Italian trade unions.

00:48:44And I would not want to force a model

00:48:46of having one umbrella organization

00:48:48on the Italian system

00:48:49because it simply works differently.

00:48:50And it has advantages

00:48:52and disadvantages here.

00:48:54And about the Scandinavians,

00:48:56they have grown themselves in a way.

00:48:59And you're completely right.

00:49:02Historically, the unemployment insurance

00:49:05by state was very low,

00:49:08so you couldn't really make ends meet.

00:49:12And when you were a trade union member

00:49:14and you paid your fee,

00:49:15then you could receive

00:49:16more unemployment benefits.

00:49:18So this is really a motivation

00:49:20to join the trade union,

00:49:21because in case you're

00:49:22in a bad situation,

00:49:24you will receive money.

00:49:25So there's kind of a

00:49:26solidarity fund as well,

00:49:29which will interest to be there,

00:49:33which worked out more or less fine,

00:49:35but which is also based

00:49:36on the Scandinavian model

00:49:38that they have

00:49:41barely any legal minimum standards,

00:49:44and they do pretty much everything

00:49:46via collective bargaining.

00:49:48So working time,

00:49:50you have a very rough definition

00:49:52in the labor law,

00:49:53but the labor law is really thin there.

00:49:55When it comes to protection of workers,

00:49:57they're doing everything for decades

00:49:58via collective bargaining,

00:50:00which has been working out fine for them,

00:50:03which has been working out rather fine

00:50:04in Austria as well,

00:50:05that we have a strong collective bargaining.

00:50:07But as soon as political dynamic shift

00:50:10and employers, for instance,

00:50:11are not willing to negotiate anymore,

00:50:14then you lose everything quickly.

00:50:17And this is the situation

00:50:18in some of the Scandinavian countries

00:50:19nowadays, for instance, in Finland,

00:50:21where collective bargaining

00:50:22really was important,

00:50:23but it has been dismantled

00:50:24in the past few years.

00:50:26And trade unions really are struggling

00:50:27right now to keep up

00:50:29because the employers simply

00:50:30don't want to negotiate anymore.

00:50:32So these are trends

00:50:33that we have to acknowledge as well.

00:50:35But maybe one final word

00:50:37also about the Eastern European,

00:50:39Central and Eastern European countries.

00:50:42I experienced much more skepticism

00:50:46towards trade unions in those countries

00:50:48than in other countries.

00:50:49So I think there is still this link

00:50:51to the old communist system

00:50:54that many people make

00:50:55and associate with trade unions.

00:50:57So I think it's much more difficult

00:50:58for trade unions to sell themselves

00:51:01and their products or the services

00:51:03their achievements as well.

00:51:05Echoing what Tim said, of course,

00:51:06you won't have to show

00:51:07that you're doing something

00:51:09in the interests of workers

00:51:11to be seen and acknowledged.

00:51:14It's definitely is a huge struggle

00:51:17for these countries.

00:51:19And it's to get a trade union member

00:51:23in Austria, probably than it is in Slovakia.

00:51:25But still, to be honest,

00:51:27it is a hell of a job

00:51:29in, I suppose, all of the countries

00:51:31to really change people's minds.

00:51:38So that when we were pushing

00:51:41through the first collective agreement

00:51:43there at my old company

00:51:44in the financial sector,

00:51:47the reaction of many of the managers

00:51:50and the big town hall discussion

00:51:53they organized to suggest

00:51:55that I was going to be responsible

00:51:56for the loss of all the jobs

00:51:58and the closure of the company

00:52:00there in Slovakia.

00:52:02Simply by asking for more.

00:52:08But the fact that I didn't know

00:52:11the politics, I didn't know

00:52:12the history of Slovakia

00:52:14and I didn't understand

00:52:15the history of communist rule

00:52:17was the things that was being thrown

00:52:20at me, you know, like that.

00:52:21And so they were rejecting it

00:52:23as though I was bringing back

00:52:24Stalinist politics again.

00:52:28And it was a whole heap of abuse,

00:52:31you know, like that.

00:52:33And my response is,

00:52:34well, look what you have gained

00:52:35and what has been conceded

00:52:38by capitalist companies

00:52:39across the globe

00:52:40because of trade unions.

00:52:42The fact that you've got weekends,

00:52:43workings and maternity pay

00:52:45or holiday pay and everything,

00:52:47overtime rates,

00:52:48all have come through

00:52:49trade union struggles.

00:52:51But it was an uphill battle.

00:52:52We only convince a minority,

00:52:54but we, you know,

00:52:55we have to work on small gains

00:52:59and the next few members.

00:53:01But it will not.

00:53:02We cannot just say,

00:53:04well, it's 92% in Iceland.

00:53:06All we need to do

00:53:07is import their model.

00:53:09It won't work like that.

00:53:10It has to be historical

00:53:12and the circumstances

00:53:13and facing that particular

00:53:16country's dynamics.

00:53:17Now my approach is one by one.

00:53:20I'm not saying we should be importing

00:53:22100% of the Iceland model.

00:53:24That's obviously bullshit,

00:53:25but I don't believe

00:53:26it can be done at all.

00:53:28I think it has to be.

00:53:29Some things that are working,

00:53:30as for example,

00:53:32what we were discussing with Sophie,

00:53:33the different model,

00:53:34not the 70-30 model,

00:53:36because that's kind of undermines

00:53:39the dynamic in the union

00:53:41when you can't really pay your employees

00:53:43because you have only 30% of the money.

00:53:45Then it's a self-fulfilled prophecy

00:53:47that you will be weak.

00:53:48You know, when you don't have employees,

00:53:50how can you grow?

00:53:52But by itself,

00:53:53that's when you can't

00:53:55really pay the attorneys

00:53:58that will be fighting

00:53:59for you in the courts.

00:54:00Then that's the same dynamic,

00:54:02you know, and if you can pay someone,

00:54:04then you don't have the money

00:54:05to pay the best of the best.

00:54:06You have to settle down.

00:54:08And when you settle down,

00:54:10then, you know,

00:54:10don't expect greatness.

00:54:13Then, you know,

00:54:14this is all self-fulfilled.

00:54:16And it's the setup,

00:54:18in my opinion,

00:54:19as such that is causing us

00:54:21all these troubles.

00:54:22I can't hear you very well.

00:54:23I think I don't know why.

00:54:26Yeah, I think your microphone got a bit.

00:54:29Oh, it's not just me.

00:54:32It's quieter.

00:54:33It's not as loud as it was before.

00:54:35But maybe I can agree

00:54:39to a certain point with both of you.

00:54:41I think it's always good

00:54:42to look for other ideas

00:54:45and to reflect what is,

00:54:46how it is working in other countries

00:54:48and try to learn something.

00:54:50And I agree that there are

00:54:52certain structural issues

00:54:53that definitely could be

00:54:55reflected and maybe even

00:54:56transferred to Slovakia.

00:54:58That's for sure.

00:54:59But I think a lot of things won't work

00:55:02because they work in a specific country

00:55:05under specific circumstances.

00:55:07And you can't really translate that

00:55:10directly to another country.

00:55:12And I think this is also

00:55:14a kind of a culture to fail as well.

00:55:18Sometimes you have to try something

00:55:20in the way of organizing

00:55:22and find out, OK,

00:55:23it's it might have worked in Sweden,

00:55:25but it's not working in Austria

00:55:26or in Slovakia.

00:55:28We have to adapt it

00:55:28or we simply leave it,

00:55:30but at least we tried.

00:55:31So I think sometimes you can try,

00:55:33but you really have to understand

00:55:35that a context,

00:55:37the respective context

00:55:38where it's coming from.

00:55:38And here with Tim,

00:55:39that some models are very specific

00:55:43and it's impossible to translate them

00:55:46to, for instance, the Slovakian model.

00:55:49And also to get it accepted.

00:55:51I mean, I am importing

00:55:53my knowledge of trade unions

00:55:55from the UK into Slovakia.

00:55:57So I'm already importing

00:55:59my experiences from one country

00:56:00and trying to make sense of it in another.

00:56:02I know that I'm,

00:56:06despite the fact that the same company

00:56:08is in Ireland, Germany,

00:56:12Britain, Slovakia, Poland,

00:56:15each country is getting different

00:56:18compensation to the workers

00:56:19and it's got no bearing

00:56:21on the jobs they're doing.

00:56:22The same job being done

00:56:23in different countries,

00:56:24paying hugely varying rates

00:56:27with the employer being compelled

00:56:29to pay different rates

00:56:31in different countries.

00:56:32Of course, you know,

00:56:34often because of historical labor battles

00:56:37that have been won in those countries.

00:56:40So when I see next to no compensation

00:56:45in Slovakia,

00:56:46of course I'm raising my voice

00:56:47and of course I'm looking to trade unions

00:56:49to bridge that gap.

00:56:51So I'm already importing

00:56:53my experience from abroad.

00:56:56The arguments as to what can be achieved

00:57:00are completely different

00:57:02because there is no precedent

00:57:05for them to look to in that sense.

00:57:07So, you know, I have to be wary

00:57:10of just saying, well, it worked in the UK,

00:57:11therefore it will work here.

00:57:15So I have to be mindful of the fact

00:57:17that their experiences

00:57:18are different with trade unions.

00:57:21That's all I'm saying.

00:57:21So yeah, political parties supporting them.

00:57:26You know, there is a direct link

00:57:28between the Labour Party

00:57:29and the trade unions.

00:57:30The Labour Party was born

00:57:32from the trade unions,

00:57:34you know, intent in the UK.

00:57:36Over in Slovakia,

00:57:38there is no such argument.

00:57:40And many politicians,

00:57:41just like in all the countries

00:57:44globally now in capitalist economies,

00:57:46are getting their money

00:57:47directly from businesses

00:57:49to fund their election campaigns.

00:57:51So their interest

00:57:52in supporting trade unions

00:57:53is very minimal.

00:57:56Agreed.

00:57:59Sophie, last question

00:58:01is about the strikes.

00:58:03The strikes and the willingness

00:58:07to strike in Austria

00:58:08and unwillingness to strike in Slovakia.

00:58:13And about your experience

00:58:16from other countries

00:58:17and what were the kind of motivations

00:58:21or how do unions motivate people to strike?

00:58:24Because the ultimate weapon

00:58:25of unions is strike.

00:58:28And while the ultimate weapon

00:58:31in Slovakia is mega blunt.

00:58:35We are, I guess,

00:58:36I don't know whether

00:58:37we are the worst in European Union,

00:58:39but we are definitely

00:58:40somewhere on the bottom

00:58:42in the amount of strikes

00:58:43that we are running

00:58:45in a concrete year.

00:58:47When I was looking at the data,

00:58:49then I wanted to cry.

00:58:52So tell us, please,

00:58:53what is your experience?

00:58:55How did you manage

00:58:56to convince people to strike?

00:58:58And what's going on there?

00:59:02Well, actually,

00:59:03we're not very big on strikes

00:59:05either in Austria.

00:59:06So this is the social partnership model

00:59:09that we start with negotiations

00:59:11and only when the negotiations fail

00:59:13and we really don't make any progress

00:59:14in collective bargaining,

00:59:16then we go for strikes.

00:59:18And before we really go in a strike mode,

00:59:20it's so-called warning strikes.

00:59:21And that's what usually

00:59:22took place in the past few years.

00:59:24But we've had a handful of strikes

00:59:27and warning strikes

00:59:30in the past few years,

00:59:31rather because of the inflation,

00:59:34sort of cost of living crisis,

00:59:36which is true across Europe.

00:59:38But some countries have been

00:59:39hit harder than others.

00:59:41And in Austria's trade unions,

00:59:44we really tried to bolster this

00:59:48a bit via collective bargaining.

00:59:50So our goal really was to meet inflation

00:59:52and that every pay rise must be higher

00:59:54than the respective inflation rate.

00:59:59And this is something

01:00:00where we actually managed

01:00:02to reach out to workers

01:00:05and to mobilize for strikes.

01:00:09It was a very specific situation

01:00:12where everything costs much, much more,

01:00:14be it the butter you bought

01:00:15in the supermarket,

01:00:17the rent or the energy prices

01:00:19that were all under the roof.

01:00:22So it was really an individual motivation

01:00:27for workers to organize,

01:00:29to mobilize, to go on strike.

01:00:32And I'm not sure if this is working

01:00:34in every situation.

01:00:35So in Austria,

01:00:36we don't have a strike culture.

01:00:37We don't have a conflict culture.

01:00:39As I mentioned earlier,

01:00:40in France, for instance,

01:00:42there is more history,

01:00:44more affinity to conflict.

01:00:46And in Austria,

01:00:47there is rather the affinity

01:00:48to bargaining, to speak,

01:00:50to find a solution

01:00:52and not to go into conflict.

01:00:54So it's not natural for us

01:00:56to go into this strike situation.

01:00:57Do you know how many strikes

01:00:59you have in a year, roughly?

01:01:01Usually we haven't had any strikes

01:01:03for years and years and years.

01:01:06So it really was in the past two,

01:01:07three years that something changed

01:01:10at some point earlier.

01:01:11So when I was speaking with Silke and Verdi,

01:01:14she told me they have a strike every week,

01:01:17every week,

01:01:18sometimes even more than one strike.

01:01:20So 50, 60, 70 strikes in a year.

01:01:24But they also have a different system

01:01:26because sometimes they have

01:01:27to force the employer

01:01:28to actually even negotiate.

01:01:30An Austrian employer is obliged

01:01:32to negotiate with us

01:01:33via the system I explained earlier.

01:01:35So there is a different setup.

01:01:38Germany functions in a different way

01:01:40than Austria does.

01:01:42But I really want to stress

01:01:44the culture part again,

01:01:45because in France, for instance,

01:01:47I think the trade union density

01:01:49is about 8% as well.

01:01:50So similar to Slovakia.

01:01:52And you wouldn't believe it

01:01:53because we know France

01:01:54from demonstrations, strikes,

01:01:57a lot of conflict going on in the streets.

01:02:00And this is simply in their blood,

01:02:04in their culture.

01:02:05And you don't have to be a trade union member

01:02:08to go on the streets and to protest.

01:02:10So it's easy to mobilize people

01:02:12to go on strikes.

01:02:14In Austria, you really have to convince them.

01:02:16And one of the arguments

01:02:18in Austria, for instance,

01:02:19is that when you go on strike,

01:02:20of course, you won't receive

01:02:21any pay from the company

01:02:22because you're not doing your job.

01:02:25And then we've got a strike fund

01:02:27from the trade unions

01:02:28and we compensate their missed salary

01:02:32through this strike fund.

01:02:35So this is something

01:02:36that we refund only for trade.

01:02:39Sorry to jump in,

01:02:40this Warchest approach,

01:02:42is it pan-European?

01:02:43Then nowhere in Europe,

01:02:45when you are striking,

01:02:46you will get a salary from your company?

01:02:49Or is it just Austrian and German

01:02:51and Slovak situation?

01:02:54I assume it's the case everywhere,

01:02:57but I wouldn't guarantee it.

01:02:59I don't think you're going to get

01:03:01your employer paying

01:03:03while people are on strike

01:03:04because technically,

01:03:06as far as the employer is concerned,

01:03:07they're in breach of contract.

01:03:08Because it's a law.

01:03:11I don't know.

01:03:12That's why I'm asking,

01:03:13someone who's kind of...

01:03:15I don't know.

01:03:16I don't know the legal situation

01:03:17in all of the countries either,

01:03:18I must admit.

01:03:21Because as a motivation to strike,

01:03:24this would be nice

01:03:25to kind of open the doors to strikes

01:03:28because when you don't lose your money,

01:03:32then you know...

01:03:34Which employer is going to concede that?

01:03:36Yeah, but that's the discussion to be had

01:03:39because when you are sick in Slovakia,

01:03:41the first 10 days or 14 days,

01:03:43I don't remember now what is the number,

01:03:46are paid and you can be sick

01:03:50as many times as it happens

01:03:51in that particular year

01:03:53and they have to pay you.

01:03:55It's just by law,

01:03:56they have to pay you.

01:03:57So if this law would be extended

01:03:59to strike situation,

01:04:00then suddenly...

01:04:03I think it's somewhat crazy.

01:04:05Yeah, but crazy.

01:04:06Crazy was the compensation

01:04:09to get compensation when you are sick

01:04:11and now we have it, you know.

01:04:13You would never get,

01:04:15you cannot surely have a situation

01:04:17where an employer concedes

01:04:21that the workers will receive pay

01:04:23when they go on strike.

01:04:27It's called pressure team, you know.

01:04:29We have to pressure them

01:04:30to everything else before.

01:04:33This is not an important discussion.

01:04:35We have to wrap it up anyway.

01:04:37Sophie has to go, but I just want to...

01:04:38No, I don't have to go yet.

01:04:40I think we can continue maybe

01:04:43for 10 more minutes or so,

01:04:44or 15 more minutes

01:04:45because I would like to bring in the European,

01:04:47so the EU level as well.

01:04:48I think this would be quite interesting

01:04:50to cover, wouldn't it?

01:04:51Or if it's fine with you?

01:04:52Please, go.

01:04:55So, shall we start now

01:04:57or in the next round?

01:04:59No, I just wanted to discuss

01:05:01the strike situation.

01:05:02I was surprised by what you said,

01:05:04that you Austrians almost never strike.

01:05:08I thought that it was hard battle every year,

01:05:10but okay, because I was kind of

01:05:12extrapolating the German situation.

01:05:14Isn't there a strike right now though

01:05:16at Austrian Airlines?

01:05:18We're actually preparing a couple of strikes

01:05:21because collective bargaining

01:05:22is going very, very bad these days.

01:05:24For instance, in the paper industries

01:05:25and the electronics industries

01:05:27we have something in the pipeline,

01:05:30but not there.

01:05:32So sometimes in Austria,

01:05:34when we have got the decision

01:05:35by the trade units

01:05:36that we will start a strike,

01:05:38this can also lead to a momentum

01:05:40in the negotiations

01:05:41and the employers start making better offers

01:05:45before we actually go to strike.

01:05:47So sometimes the threat

01:05:48that we will start with a strike

01:05:50is enough to achieve a compromise.

01:05:54Sometimes it's not.

01:05:55We'll see.

01:05:56I don't know what's going to happen

01:05:57in the next few weeks.

01:05:58I can't promise anything.

01:05:59You don't even have to fight

01:06:00and you will get it.

01:06:02At least we have to negotiate,

01:06:03but we'll see.

01:06:06So the European Union level,

01:06:07so you were in Brussels,

01:06:08so lay it on us.

01:06:10What did you learn?

01:06:12Well, this is one part of my job

01:06:15to represent workers' interests

01:06:18on the EU level as well.

01:06:20So as trade unions,

01:06:21we are organized on a European level.

01:06:23I think that's something to be

01:06:24highlighted as well.

01:06:26So it's not only individual trade units

01:06:28in all of the countries

01:06:29doing their own thing,

01:06:31but we have kind of umbrella organizations,

01:06:33the so-called federations,

01:06:35on the European level as well.

01:06:36So GPA is, for instance,

01:06:39a member of UNI Global Union or UNI Europa.

01:06:43So this is a trade union federation

01:06:45organizing all of the services sectors,

01:06:48IT, telecommunications, finance, commerce.

01:06:52So trade unions organizing members

01:06:54in European countries in these sectors

01:06:57are also a member of UNI Europa.

01:07:00So we have a trade union family

01:07:03on the European level as well

01:07:04trying to, well, streamline our interests

01:07:08towards the European Commission,

01:07:09European Parliament,

01:07:10and European politics as a whole.

01:07:13Because the EU level is getting

01:07:15more and more relevant

01:07:16for the national level as well.

01:07:18And I think it would be

01:07:22quite risky as trade unions

01:07:24to ignore the European level.

01:07:25We do know the European Union

01:07:28as a rather neoliberal or economic project.

01:07:32It was founded, of course, because of peace,

01:07:35but also to have more cooperation

01:07:37in economics between the member states.

01:07:41And I dare say that a lot of the politics

01:07:44that has been done over the decades

01:07:46in the European Union

01:07:47was maybe not that much in favor of workers.

01:07:50But we have had some momentums

01:07:53and the European regulations

01:07:56and common minimum standards

01:07:58are getting more and more important

01:08:00also for the trade unions and for workers.

01:08:03And actually, in the past few years,

01:08:04we managed quite a few achievements for workers.

01:08:09So, for instance,

01:08:11we had a so-called

01:08:13work-life balance directive a few years ago,

01:08:16meaning having a EU directive.

01:08:18Every EU member state

01:08:20has to implement the directive

01:08:22into their own legislation.

01:08:25And with this work-life balance directive,

01:08:27it was really trying to address

01:08:31the difficult situation for families

01:08:34and especially women with children,

01:08:37how to balance their job life,

01:08:39their career and children,

01:08:41because care, taking care of children

01:08:44is taking up a lot of time.

01:08:46And sometimes it's simply impossible

01:08:48to have a career at the same time.

01:08:49And through this work-life balance directive,

01:08:52I think there were also some improvements

01:08:54in Slovakia, for instance,

01:08:55to have more flexibility in working time.

01:08:59When you have children,

01:09:00that you can bring them to kindergarten

01:09:02or get them there,

01:09:03or if they're sick,

01:09:04that you have more rights.

01:09:05So sometimes we see that EU directive,

01:09:09EU standards really can have an impact

01:09:12and can be an improvement

01:09:13for workers in a specific country.

01:09:18Another achievement I want to mention here

01:09:21is the so-called minimum wage directive,

01:09:23because we started this interview

01:09:25with the question about minimum wages

01:09:27and collective bargaining.

01:09:30And this is, of course,

01:09:32the core competence of trade unions.

01:09:34And we spoke about collective bargaining

01:09:37again and again throughout the last hour.

01:09:40It is crucial that trade unions

01:09:43collectively bargain for workers

01:09:45on the workplace, on sectoral level,

01:09:48for minimum wages,

01:09:49for better working conditions.

01:09:51But in many countries, as you said,

01:09:55there's not a very high coverage rate

01:09:58of collective agreements.

01:10:00So you mentioned the 25% or so for Slovakia.

01:10:03In Austria, 98% of the workers

01:10:06are covered by collective agreements.

01:10:07So that's a huge difference.

01:10:09And one goal we set on the European level

01:10:13as a trade union movement

01:10:15is that we said,

01:10:16we need more collective bargaining.

01:10:17Workers will be better paid,

01:10:20will have better working conditions

01:10:22if we manage to improve

01:10:23collective bargaining coverage,

01:10:24for instance, for Slovakia

01:10:26and for other countries.

01:10:28And we really managed to get

01:10:30the so-called minimum wage directive,

01:10:32which sets a target of 80%

01:10:35collective bargaining coverage

01:10:36for all of the EU member states.

01:10:39That's not going to happen

01:10:40from today to tomorrow.

01:10:42That's going to take time.

01:10:44But in theory, also Slovakia has the goal

01:10:47to achieve an 80% collective

01:10:49bargaining coverage rate

01:10:50so that 80% of the workers in Slovakia

01:10:53have a collective agreement.

01:10:55The question is, of course, how?

01:10:57So all of the member states

01:10:59need to work on so-called action plans

01:11:01together with the social partners

01:11:03or with employers, with trade unions,

01:11:05how to improve the situation.

01:11:06And this can mean legal changes.

01:11:08This can mean funding for trade unions

01:11:12or training, negotiation training,

01:11:15for instance.

01:11:16So there are different ways

01:11:18how to achieve this or different factors

01:11:20that you can put in there.

01:11:23But basically, the EU gave this target

01:11:27to all of the member states

01:11:28to achieve at least 80% coverage.

01:11:30And I think this is something

01:11:32that helps us as a trade union movement

01:11:34as well to improve our situation.

01:11:39You were part of the negotiation

01:11:40to get it introduced

01:11:42on the European Parliament level,

01:11:44because as far as I know,

01:11:45the European Parliament

01:11:46was the initiator

01:11:47and they pushed it through.

01:11:52In the history, it was that

01:11:53Ursula von der Leyen back then

01:11:55when she wanted to become

01:11:56president of the Commission

01:11:57for the first time,

01:11:59she had to be elected

01:12:00by the European Parliament.

01:12:02And back then, it was mainly the Democrats.

01:12:03She had to give them some sweets.

01:12:05The socialists wanted something

01:12:07so they got this.

01:12:09And another question I had

01:12:11about these pan-European things

01:12:14that are happening there.

01:12:15As far as I know,

01:12:17maybe it was already implemented

01:12:19or it's negotiated the disclosure

01:12:22of the salaries

01:12:23because of the gender gap.

01:12:26So it's already implemented

01:12:27or it's going to be implemented.

01:12:30Do you know something about it?

01:12:31Because in my eyes,

01:12:32this will be a huge help

01:12:34for not only unions,

01:12:35but all the workers

01:12:36when suddenly everyone

01:12:38will be able to see

01:12:40what the other colleagues are earning.

01:12:42This, I don't know about your country,

01:12:45but in Slovakia,

01:12:46we should keep it secret

01:12:47what is our salary.

01:12:49So that's how the same.

01:12:50OK, well, then you will be benefiting

01:12:53from the same kind of changes

01:12:55if it's implemented,

01:12:56because that's the easiest way

01:12:59how to kind of undercut the workers

01:13:01when you don't even have to

01:13:03or can't be speaking about your salary

01:13:06on the workplace.

01:13:07This is the so-called

01:13:08paid transparency directive

01:13:10that has been adopted

01:13:11on the European level.

01:13:12And now it's up to the member states

01:13:13to make it national law.

01:13:16And I think it's still

01:13:17about one and a half years time.

01:13:19I think in autumn 2026

01:13:22out of the member states

01:13:24should have implemented it

01:13:25on a national level.

01:13:27And this is really, as I say,

01:13:29stop the secrecy.

01:13:30So you can't be obliged

01:13:32to keep your salary secret.

01:13:34And I think this is

01:13:34a very important first step.

01:13:37But also when it comes

01:13:38to the gender pay gap,

01:13:41it will be an instrument

01:13:43because in most of European countries,

01:13:45women earn significantly

01:13:47less than men.

01:13:48Actually, in all, there is no country

01:13:50where there is no difference.

01:13:52Yeah, there's a small difference.

01:13:55But it's work to be done

01:13:58everywhere still.

01:14:00And in the future,

01:14:01every company with more

01:14:02than 100 workers

01:14:04will have to make a report

01:14:07comparing the same groups,

01:14:09so to speak.

01:14:10So when you do the same

01:14:14work that can be compared

01:14:16and then you have to compare

01:14:18the pay level of men and women.

01:14:19And if there is a pay difference

01:14:21of 5% or more,

01:14:24then the company has to get active.

01:14:26And together with the Berks Council,

01:14:28with a trade union on company level,

01:14:31they have to, well, equal this out.

01:14:35So this is, I think,

01:14:36something that is not implemented yet,

01:14:38but that might have a huge impact.

01:14:40And in case someone is online...

01:14:44Sorry, I just want to clarify.

01:14:46These are proposals being made

01:14:48at the European level,

01:14:51but they would need to be adopted

01:14:54at each member state and agreed.

01:14:57And historically,

01:14:59many of the member states,

01:15:00especially Hungary and Poland,

01:15:02have been very slow

01:15:04to implement existing

01:15:06proposals or reforms.

01:15:08And I think they...

01:15:10A trivial point,

01:15:11but they proposed and accepted

01:15:15changing the time differences.

01:15:19You know, so every...

01:15:222015, they first said it was a good idea

01:15:25and accepted all the advice of experts

01:15:27that changing the clocks twice a year

01:15:30was ineffective and actually detrimental

01:15:32to the health of all of the Europeans.

01:15:34Here we are 10 years later,

01:15:35and they're still struggling to agree

01:15:37a date that they're going to do it.

01:15:39I'm wondering, even if,

01:15:42in principle, these proposals

01:15:44that would benefit workers sound very good,

01:15:46but what's the actual date

01:15:51that they would likely to be implemented

01:15:53in all the member states?

01:15:54And they still would need to be ratified

01:15:58by the member states to become European law.

01:16:00And at the moment,

01:16:01we're a long way from that.

01:16:02We're a long way from that.

01:16:04Well, in this case,

01:16:05with the Pay Transparency Directive,

01:16:07it's not a proposal.

01:16:08It is a legal text.

01:16:10So all of the member states

01:16:12are obliged to implement it.

01:16:15So it is a European directive.

01:16:17It has been confirmed

01:16:19by the Commission, the Parliament,

01:16:21the Council.

01:16:22So they're all on board.

01:16:24And then usually there is

01:16:26two, three years time

01:16:27for member states

01:16:30to ratify these changes.

01:16:32To implement it in a national law.

01:16:35And for the Pay Transparency Directive,

01:16:36this deadline is, I think,

01:16:38in autumn 2026.

01:16:40So in a bit over a year.

01:16:42Of course, you can do it earlier.

01:16:44Some countries have done it.

01:16:45Others will wait for a longer time.

01:16:47Austria as well,

01:16:49usually is not a front runner

01:16:50when it comes to this,

01:16:51but takes longer

01:16:53than it actually should take.

01:16:54So I agree that

01:16:56even though legally the deadline

01:16:58is in 2026,

01:16:59it might be that some countries

01:17:01will adopt legislation in 2027

01:17:03or 2028 even.

01:17:05But then it still is a legal document

01:17:07by the Commission

01:17:08or by the European Union.

01:17:09So the Commission can put pressure

01:17:11on the member states to implement it.

01:17:14So.

01:17:16I mean, it sounds good.

01:17:17I'm just cautious of, you know,

01:17:19sure,

01:17:26in case you want to have a look,

01:17:27just want a recommendation.

01:17:28There is a project by the ETUC,

01:17:30the European Trade Union Confederation,

01:17:32called Wage Up.

01:17:34And there is a website.

01:17:35So if you just Google Wage Up

01:17:38and ETUC, you will get to the website.

01:17:40And there I've got an overview

01:17:41of European countries

01:17:43and about, well, minimum wage,

01:17:47so the monthly minimum wage,

01:17:48the hourly minimum wage,

01:17:50but also the gender pay gap, for instance.

01:17:52So how much less do women earn

01:17:54in an average compared to men?

01:17:56And also the collective bargaining coverage.

01:17:58And you can also check

01:18:00if these directives have already

01:18:01been transposed or implemented

01:18:03in national law.

01:18:04And you can check it out

01:18:06for other countries as well.

01:18:08So Wage Up.

01:18:09Wage Up.

01:18:11ETUC.

01:18:13ETUC.

01:18:14OK.

01:18:15And the last question I wanted to ask

01:18:17is about the future,

01:18:18because we are talking about the past,

01:18:19what the European Union already implementing

01:18:22or is planning to implement

01:18:23in a couple of months or years.

01:18:26You know, the hearsays from Brussels,

01:18:29you were there a few days back.

01:18:31So what is on the horizon?

01:18:32What might be the new kind of,

01:18:35you know, directives on the union

01:18:38and workers front that might be visiting us

01:18:41in, oh, I don't know,

01:18:43a couple of years, I guess.

01:18:46Well, to be honest,

01:18:47the future is not very bright right now.

01:18:52You know, the geopolitical situation

01:18:53with the war in Ukraine,

01:18:55with possible tariffs

01:18:58or other tensions from the United States.

01:19:01So everyone was crying in Brussels

01:19:03when you were there last time.

01:19:04Pretty much.

01:19:04And from the trade union perspective,

01:19:07you know, what we hear all of the time

01:19:08is that companies are complaining

01:19:12that there is far too much bureaucracy in Europe,

01:19:15so that there are so many different rules

01:19:17they have to comply with,

01:19:18for instance, to make some reports

01:19:20about the gender pay gap

01:19:22and that they simply can't afford

01:19:24to do this anymore

01:19:25because they're not competitive anymore.

01:19:27So competitiveness is the new slogan

01:19:31and goal these days

01:19:32when it comes to EU politics.

01:19:35And this is my job,

01:19:36the job of many other trade unionists in Brussels

01:19:40are also active on a national level

01:19:42that we try to push against this agenda.

01:19:44Of course, having competitive economies

01:19:47also can be an advantage for workers,

01:19:49but we must not forget about workers' rights

01:19:52and we must not, well, abolish workers' rights

01:19:56just to make companies more competitive.

01:19:58And this is pretty much the fight

01:19:59we're in right now.

01:20:02So on the one hand,

01:20:02we're trying to defend what we have,

01:20:05which is always a very difficult situation

01:20:07for trade unions.

01:20:09But on the other hand, of course,

01:20:10we try to push for new legislation,

01:20:13which is extremely difficult

01:20:14under these circumstances.

01:20:15But to give you one example

01:20:18that I've been discussing

01:20:19in the past few weeks

01:20:21is psychosocial risks at the workplace.

01:20:25I think we can see it

01:20:26in a lot of countries and companies

01:20:28that people are stressed out.

01:20:31There is a lot of burden.

01:20:33Many people burn out.

01:20:34And this is a situation

01:20:35that's not favorable either for employers

01:20:38nor for individuals, for workers

01:20:40that they are in burnout,

01:20:42that they go on a sick leave

01:20:44for a month, three months, a year, two years

01:20:46because they simply cannot handle anymore.

01:20:49They can't do their work anymore

01:20:51or even do their daily business.

01:20:54So this is something we were thinking

01:20:55about as trade unions.

01:20:57We could address on the European level

01:20:59that we speak about psychosocial risks

01:21:02at the workplace

01:21:03and try to set some standards

01:21:06how to avoid burnouts

01:21:08or stress-related symptoms at work.

01:21:11So this is one idea.

01:21:14And are they listening?

01:21:15Are they open to this kind of proposals?

01:21:18Well, implementation mainly.

01:21:22When you sell it to them

01:21:23as a benefit for them as well,

01:21:25because who needs, I don't know,

01:21:2710% of your workforce to be burned out?

01:21:30It's like wasted money.

01:21:32So maybe do something about it.

01:21:36It actually saves money

01:21:38instead of costs money.

01:21:39And what was the exact idea to implement?

01:21:43Well, vacation days?

01:21:44Or you don't even know yet?

01:21:46What is the situation?

01:21:49Yes.

01:21:49OK, OK.

01:21:51And also to give, for instance,

01:21:53trade unions and works councils

01:21:56a better voice on company level

01:21:58when it comes to these matters.

01:22:01So you know that there is a lot of

01:22:03occupational health and safety.

01:22:05So how high the desk should be.

01:22:10And I think there are other elements as well

01:22:13that can feed into it.

01:22:14For instance, one thing

01:22:16we've been discussing on the European level

01:22:17is also the so-called right to disconnect

01:22:19that with digitalization,

01:22:22with having these devices

01:22:25with us all of the time,

01:22:26we can be reached by our employer

01:22:28all of the time.

01:22:29So when you get a message at midnight,

01:22:32you're tend to answer,

01:22:33but then you don't really have the breaks anymore.

01:22:35You need to shut down, to rest,

01:22:38to recover again.

01:22:40So this right to disconnect

01:22:42could be a part of this

01:22:43so that it's really clear

01:22:45that there is no obligation whatsoever

01:22:47for a worker to pick up the phone,

01:22:49to answer a message after working hours.

01:22:53Because we're speaking about Slovenia,

01:22:55Slovenia is, I think,

01:22:56the only European country

01:22:57that has already introduced

01:22:59such a right to disconnect in national law.

01:23:02I think that the French did it as well,

01:23:05that after there is the email disconnect

01:23:08after whatever, 6 p.m.

01:23:10or whatever the number is,

01:23:12and then you can't really be receiving

01:23:14any messages from your company,

01:23:16it's automatically disconnected.

01:23:18So it's not even technically possible

01:23:20as far as I know.

01:23:22Some companies do this,

01:23:23some companies do this, I think, mainly.

01:23:27Okay, so thank you very much for your time.

01:23:29So it was very informative.

01:23:31So I hope that our viewers and listeners

01:23:35will like this discussion

01:23:36and well for the future

01:23:40and bright future in Brussels

01:23:42and bring handkerchief next time

01:23:45when you are there,

01:23:45when everyone is crying in Brussels.

01:23:47So a little bit of optimism.

01:23:51Always.

01:23:53Thank you very much.

01:23:56Thank you, bye.

ROZHOVORY - 20 - O rakúskych a EÚ odboroch

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