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Transcript

00:00:00Hello, here is Michael from the New Left and today we'll be talking with Niki Kowal about

00:00:21the situation in Austria and the Austrian left and the perception of well Austrians and how they

00:00:29see Slovakia and vice versa so hello Niki hi hello and here is Tim with us as well from the new left

00:00:40hi hi so let's start so the first question is please introduce yourself Niki tell us something

00:00:49about you how you end up in the left kind of sphere why was it family was it learning and

00:00:57and reading how did you end up with SPO because you are a SPO politician in Austria yeah I'm not

00:01:06really a politician I'm I'm a teacher at a business school for economics and I always did

00:01:18political activism in the European in the in the Austrian social democratic party in my spare time

00:01:26so it's it's not really you know it's not really a professional political work um yeah and um

00:01:37basically I grew up in a very conservative environment in the countryside especially

00:01:47my high school was uh yeah pretty old-fashioned um also mentally and um in the same time my parents were

00:01:59quite liberal and um out of this contrast um I identified with uh left ideas due to

00:02:09horrible conservative teachers in the 90s in the Austrian countryside yeah that's more or less the

00:02:18story so think of a region where if if you have long hair is still a revolutionary okay that's

00:02:26that's that's the baseline there yeah I was a puberty very fighting back and have have you been a bad

00:02:34student and you know and drinking and partying and just pissing everyone off or yes and I yeah first of

00:02:42all I was pissing everyone off but then um I went the more constructive way and I was the school representative

00:02:48of my school and then I was the school representative of lower Austria which is unusual because

00:02:55it's not it's it's it's difficult for a left wing to you know get all the other school representatives

00:03:00vote for you and um yeah and and this was my way in the social democratic sphere um with the school

00:03:09student representative system in Austria okay and how did it follow from there to university uh as far

00:03:18as I know you are economy a major but what exactly did you study and you know what was your path how did

00:03:24you end up here where you are um yeah so um I I first um wanted to study politics and history and then I

00:03:37recognized um I cannot understand the world when I ignore economics um especially the world 25 years ago

00:03:50where globalization was the most important phenomena of our of our time and um you know when um

00:04:02um let's let's let's say a a period without history no end of history period so um ideology history um all

00:04:14these seemed old-fashioned and um I I thought I need to understand the economy to be able to make

00:04:24substantial political statements and so I went this way um to to improve my

00:04:32my political brain and thinking and that was the reason why I stopped um studying um politics and

00:04:40and I started with uh with economics um which uh was a good decision but it's also funny that now 25 years

00:04:49later um history is back and um it's uh it's interesting that the economic sphere is again losing

00:04:59importance compared to when I was a student and the political sphere is gaining importance in history

00:05:07when we think about Vladimir Putin for example and historical concepts are um are kind of um coming

00:05:14back in the world even in a in a grotesque way but they are so yeah this was the reason why I I choose economics

00:05:24um I was supported by the IMK this is the macroeconomic policy institute it is the macroeconomic um institute

00:05:35within the foundation of the German um trade union federation so they basically uh financed my um my

00:05:47PhD studies in economics and um yeah between um between my diploma and my PhD I uh went for my civil service to

00:05:59uh South America and was working for one year in a street children um institution in Buenos Aires

00:06:08now that's something I wanted to discuss with you so how was it in Buenos Aires I was pretty impressed

00:06:13when I've seen it that you know you can be somewhere on the beach and enjoying life and instead of that you

00:06:18go into the dirt and you know how was it it was uh it was uh it was in 2009 so it was still the Kirchner

00:06:31period um but Christina um Christina Kirchner's period and um yeah the the situation was um

00:06:43um comparatively stable uh and um I I learned a lot obviously about um the whole South American left and

00:06:56the perception of the world but working in the institution was a little bit um was a little bit frustrating

00:07:04because um you know the children they live in the street and um they they only

00:07:13our institution was only for clothes um for lunch for breakfast and for washing

00:07:24uh and so after afterwards it's three o'clock they they go back uh to the streets where they live and um

00:07:33you finally you you can change a lot yeah you you may improve there's four hours

00:07:41it is that they spend in in your in your facility but um you you cannot you cannot make a substantial

00:07:49difference and there was a little bit i have no clue how big is bueno iris how many children are

00:07:55aware 2009 isn't hopefully the situation improved how many children are we talking about how big is it what is

00:08:04hundreds of kids thousands of kids tens of thousands i have no idea look um buenos aires is so it is it's

00:08:15similar to paris so the this la capital buenos aires the administrative borders of the city that's three million people

00:08:23but the region so the acclimation is 10 more million yes it's about it's a it's 13 13 million people and um

00:08:36um the the majority almost austria and slovakia put together man okay yeah yeah yeah it's it's

00:08:46unbelievable and um the majority of of of the people are not extremely poor so that's a difference to

00:08:55i don't know if you've been to lima maybe or other uh thousand um never been to south america that's

00:09:05we are greenhorns you all enlighten us nico tell us something about it all right so um

00:09:13you know in in brazil and in in or in in peru and in other parts of of of latin america you have

00:09:20really big favelas that's a brazilian expression in in argentina it would be vicious so uh very poor

00:09:28areas and they are located houses temporary houses put together by local people you know like they

00:09:35build themselves like lean lean tubes you know exactly exactly something like this which which uh

00:09:42there's a video online now where there's a huge one in california no less the huge homelessness now

00:09:50in california there's a massive there's a video of it with a soundtrack over to california you know

00:09:57and it's shocking it's shocking to see in a first world country those types of places you know yeah

00:10:04yeah yeah i i think many people are shocked when they um when they take a greyhound from one city to

00:10:13the other in the us and see what is what they would find between this the beautiful massive homeless

00:10:22town yeah so i think atlanta people told me they went from the atlanta airport to atlanta city and

00:10:28they thought they that's a third world uh country or something so yeah yeah um anyway in in buenos aires

00:10:37it's not a mass phenomenon so it's maybe i mean it's it's getting worse maybe now um but um in this time

00:10:48it was less than less than five percent of the city population living in vicious okay so vicious um

00:10:58let's take i think of five percent of those 13 millions or five percent of those three millions

00:11:06i think of um i think of the three millions ah okay because it's a different volume of people then

00:11:12oh okay yes yeah um so behind the train station for example there's one we share with maybe 10 000

00:11:19inhabitants so this is this is uh so there are there are areas like this um but

00:11:28um it's um it's not the mature it's not the majority of the cities it's not you know the the typical

00:11:34um picture of buenos aires is is is is not total poverty this is important to to understand and um

00:11:43um so the children were children from usually coming from uh from these vicious or from very poor areas

00:11:53like um la poca the famous famous uh la poca area where um um um where um the you know the club

00:12:04the the very the football club okay so that's the that's the the the most known um argentinian football

00:12:11club is in is in la poca and maradona is coming from la poca and so on so

00:12:18the funny thing about this uh is these three children is many of them are blonde and have blue

00:12:25eyes so this this is this is uh yeah especially for argentina um but so they are not ethnic they are

00:12:38they are white that's what you are saying i i thought that those children are kind of like indian

00:12:43you know children no no no no no no okay that's also important argentina is like the us they killed

00:12:53everybody okay um the the in south america i mean i don't know how much we want to talk about south

00:13:03america but but in the south in the south american colonial history the the andes so the the mountains

00:13:11they were heavy populated high civilized and they are many um ethnic indians survived so that they

00:13:21still have a majority in bolivia and um a big part of the population in peru and so on also the north

00:13:30of argentina where the mountains start you have still um large numbers of um of ethnic indians but the

00:13:40argentinian mainland which is very similar to the north american mainland you know like um plains

00:13:50with not dense where you had a very low density of population before the colonization there they

00:14:01finally um they killed everybody else and it was totally european populated so

00:14:09when i was in 2009 i i i i don't know what's what's going on in 2025 but when i was there in 2009 it was

00:14:17more white than every western european city

00:14:22okay interesting okay well then i stand corrected i thought that those were indian children and not

00:14:31but then it's even more sad you know and then you can't blame racism then it's really just capitalism baby

00:14:40there is a there is racism and um they have

00:14:45they have india they have immigration from peru and from bolivia and they call them negros

00:14:50you know so um there is racism um and i guess there are more um rich uh people with blonde hair than

00:15:02than street children but nevertheless there are street children um with with uh with blue eyes you know

00:15:11how influential was this experience for you was it like that was the paradigm change where you

00:15:17kind of got radicalized or or you already knew what what's going on in the world or no no no no

00:15:23what happened with with your mind when you've seen no i was no i i i was uh i turned into a social

00:15:34democrat when i was 22 i think or maybe 23 and um it uh never changed again so yeah and it it it it it

00:15:51didn't change a lot in my um my world views it was it was more or less what i anticipated so just

00:15:59confirmed the opinions you had because you have seen first and what's going on when when you are

00:16:05unlucky no something like that yes you can say it like that put it like that okay well then let's

00:16:12switch to europe and to unless tim has any question about no no carry on yeah i want to

00:16:22at some point i want to discuss some of your your uh articles that you've put on your page

00:16:27in particular protectionism well no well we can we can we can go back to europe and uh talk about

00:16:35well so you you use you you made your studies you made your phd and you are in and out from spo as a

00:16:44kind of how you would describe yourself i thought that you are a spo politician so well you know tell us

00:16:52in your words what you are really for spo because i remember you from that big uh big spo kind of like

00:17:01congress or whatever it was last summer i i don't remember exactly that's first time i've seen you and

00:17:07i like what you were saying back then and i'll i took you for a spo politician young and you know

00:17:15climbing so no i'm um i'm an i'm an activist within the spo which is rare especially my age so usually

00:17:28you have young activists so you are not even an spo member oh i am yes okay of course no i i also have

00:17:35a function i know i'm i'm like you know in my district uh here in the in vienna in my in the ninth district

00:17:46i'm like the vice president of the district party so i have a i have a small function and i'm an activist

00:17:56but i'm i'm not my professional life is not happening in politics so um and i'm proud because i i could

00:18:08change some things in austria without even being professionally in politics so from this activist um

00:18:18um um attitude and um it two or three times it really made a difference so um i yeah i i like this

00:18:30way of um intervening but um not being not being part of the power system no

00:18:41it's kind of independent yeah in and out when when when you feel like it something like that

00:18:49except more or less yeah when when there's something that that seems really important to me um

00:18:54i i intervene so for example two years ago there were two candidates for

00:19:01the um for the party present presidency um one of one of them was very apolitical

00:19:10yeah um post-neoliberal um candidate she was she was ideological weak and uh who was it i thought it was

00:19:25doska chillow it was pamela randy wagner ah okay okay she was one candidate and the other candidate was um

00:19:32uh like very right-wing version of social democracy like a little bit like denmark

00:19:39uh like like methe frederickson i think even more um even more radical and um from my point of view

00:19:52um yeah much too conservative for being a social democratic party leader

00:19:57um and um i didn't like both of the candidates so i announced myself as candidate even though there

00:20:07were only the party had planned only you know a election between two two candidates and after um

00:20:17after i announced um my my um

00:20:23my race they had to expand the number of candidates and said okay whoever wants to be a candidate

00:20:31can be a candidate and so three days three days later um andreas babla from the party left

00:20:38um announced his candidacy for for the presidency of of uh of the austrian social democracy and so i

00:20:48um i uh resigned

00:20:53and he won and was it just happenstance that babla got involved or you cannot you were

00:21:01you know aligned and you knew that he will step in or how did it happen i didn't know it no okay but

00:21:08uh so happy coincidence then yeah

00:21:13you know i um let's say i opened the door um so that the party you know that the party um

00:21:22um enlarged the number of of of candidates and um he he um he used this opportunity and um

00:21:33so we we we kind of cooperated without without as far as i know babla is kind of bottom-up candidate

00:21:41that he he he he wasn't very liked by the establishment of spiel and the membership base kind of brought him up

00:21:51and the question yeah something like that the question is how rare is it in sp o that uh head

00:21:59of the party cannot is liked by membership base but not establishment another way around i i that's

00:22:08that was the discussion we wanted to have you know how politic is done in austria and what are the

00:22:13differences because here in slovakia i can tell you that there is no membership base whatsoever in most of

00:22:20the parties most of the political parties in slovakia they have like 100 members so

00:22:24you know let's let's let's as bottom up goes you know that's just not the way so how is it in in austria

00:22:36because it's long established 100 plus years sp o 140 000 members as far as i know how strong is the internal

00:22:44democracy there is it rare that the candidate it was it was the first referendum in history okay well

00:22:51there we go so we are very why so late why why it took it 100 years to kind of bring up someone from

00:23:00from the bottom compared to other western european countries we are very late with democratization of the

00:23:06party and um this is because um our uh political establishment is very very strong um uh we you know they they have

00:23:21um we have um yeah 140 000 members and um in in many um political levels district level um community

00:23:36level um um the the province level the social democracy plays an important role so uh there is

00:23:45there is a lot of establishment all in all and trade unions um so therefore um the they always feared to

00:23:55open the party there was always a fear of the when you did well i i don't know the story behind it but when the

00:24:02the party was democratized and and you did encourage participation and voting for a left week did we did

00:24:11you see a corresponding rise in membership yes um more than 10 000 exactly so the similar thing happened

00:24:20when corbyn got elected he was he was put on the ballot paper with no expectation of winning whatsoever he

00:24:28had no support from the official bureaucrats of the trade unions or the big groups or the mps barely

00:24:35any in parliament and yet they saw a surge in membership that took them to the largest group in

00:24:42in europe of 600 000 members and of course once he got kicked out with this scurrilous nonsense of

00:24:50him being anti-semitic or whatever and they persecuted him for this in all the papers and everything

00:24:55once they kicked him out there's then a purge of the exact same members that join so now it's declined

00:25:03dramatically and they've got next to no money left but they don't care because they got full control

00:25:08of the labour party again so this democratization had exactly the same effect of increasing young

00:25:14people's participation in politics and the opposite is true is that once they did democratize then kicked

00:25:20them out everybody left again or they got kicked out forcefully for not being left-wing enough so

00:25:27it's it's quite a similar story i think to what you're saying occurred yes so but andreas babble is

00:25:35vice chairman as a vice vice chancellor that's that's how it's called it now so there is still hope that

00:25:42he will not be kicked out we will see you know what is the mood there nikki uh you know how how how is

00:25:48andreas holding up against the established political spheres and you know what's going on he could just

00:25:58be co-opted that's the other way yeah well he um he managed to install um uh quite left-wing um um treasury

00:26:13how do you call it how do you call it in in the uk uh the the finance minister finance minister not

00:26:18treasury oh oh people understand minister finance minister secretary of treasury or something yeah

00:26:24yeah so so um we have a we have a very we have a pretty left-wing finance minister now which is a very

00:26:30powerful position obviously and this is thanks to andreas babble so um he's making a difference um

00:26:38um he he he he couldn't change a lot in the elections um so um that's that's a little bit sad the

00:26:48the the the the total the the total left in austria um saw their worst election result since the war

00:26:57wow so uh we we we couldn't um we we couldn't um yeah really let's say that they have lost a lot of um

00:27:16trust in the past um you can imagine um like in most social democratic parties uh they

00:27:25they uh they they've had a very technocratic way of um seeing the world and

00:27:34bureaucrats without a lot of charisma um

00:27:39were yeah dominating the the party establishment in the last 30 years but um but nevertheless we were hope

00:27:50we were hoping to to to make a bigger difference and um we didn't really you know we we did well in

00:27:58the cities we did well in the suburbs we did well in the areas where more educated and more wealthy

00:28:05people live that's crazy but it's how it's going like in like in most countries um

00:28:12which area start to vote left and poor area start to vote right and this is and we and we couldn't stop

00:28:21this this crazy trend you know that's the question whether it's really crazy because i would say it

00:28:31goes hand in hand with the disruption of unionization in most western of most countries let's say and when

00:28:39the unions are weak then the populace get radicalized into the that maybe i'm simplifying and maybe it's

00:28:46bullshit but that's that's how i see that it goes hand in hand with unionization unionization in austria

00:28:52isn't exactly breathtaking with 30 percent so 70 percent of workers as far as i know yeah are not unionized

00:29:00ergo there is no oh no the the the education is lacking in these political spheres not to mention that

00:29:08the disruption that is coming on from uh social media and the well right-wingers are pretty strong

00:29:17that's how corbyn got kicked out with media so they just poison people's minds with

00:29:23bullshit and then it happens that's that's my read so tell me otherwise nikki

00:29:28i don't know what um it's it may be an explanation for countries like austria but trade unions played an

00:29:39important role 50 years ago and um and now they are still compare comparatively strong

00:29:47um but um yeah but they are much weaker than they used to be i guess no that's how of course

00:29:54um so it may be one explanation but um i mean the world is complex so maybe no i'm not saying it's

00:30:03the only one it's just that's that's how maybe i'm just you know i'm a trade unionist nick uh tim is as

00:30:09well so we can that's why we are doing it because we are believing that it brings in some change but

00:30:17but then the next question would be what is the reason why unions are losing importance

00:30:21and then we are talking about um society uh society phenomenas which are

00:30:30bigger yeah than um or economic developments that are um that are more global more general

00:30:39and we can talk about individualization we can talk about globalization we may talk about um

00:30:46yeah all of the above that's that's what is happening people are just not willing to come

00:30:50together and fight collectively for totally whatever yeah the collective is being washed by media

00:30:58the only collectivism that is um the only collective in that works this time is or in our times is nativism

00:31:10or nationalism and that's um yeah that's bad but um but that's that's the situation we we face and

00:31:20i think the biggest question for the left in in the last 30 years is how to how to get back solidarity and

00:31:29this is what we are not really able to manage to achieve and i believe that it's the workplace in the end in the

00:31:38workplace the money distribution and wealth distribution and everything gets decided now if if you are paid

00:31:46shitty you will be pissed off that's just totally understandable and then you will be looking for

00:31:51someone to blame and when you can't blame your boss because the trade union is weak then you you will find

00:31:58whoever the refugees a weak woman whoever gaze because you know you feel the anger and you you you have to

00:32:06kind of let it out somehow yes but um or you can drink yes that's that's a common approach as well but you know the

00:32:14the you know the how do you call them

00:32:23in in in german we will call them so workers who do not do easy tasks but more sophisticated tasks

00:32:32which are very important in austria because austria is still a very industrialized country more than 20

00:32:39percent of the gdb comes from uh from industry and um we have many workers

00:32:47in you know machinery car production um chemical industry um skilled workers no and um the skilled workers

00:33:00they are they are gaining a lot of money that's unbelievable so the they they they have they have

00:33:07seen a substantial rise in their incomes and nevertheless this is the yeah the the group with

00:33:17um the strongest sympathy for right-wing populism of all of all societal groups well they feel

00:33:28i think that's the explanation that they they are threatened to lose the status that they achieved in

00:33:34the last couple of years that's usually how sociologists explain this irony and then and then

00:33:41and then you have the problem when uh when when when the climate movement um says okay maybe your car is

00:33:49too big or maybe we should we could also use a train um or um maybe we should stop um flying to i don't know

00:34:00um to to to to uh vietnam for holiday um then you have exactly this you know this uh post

00:34:11post-material discussions within society um that uh that are totally destroying the old um

00:34:21patterns of solidarity so it doesn't i think i think your explanation is valid but you have

00:34:31um many other explanations and and all in all it's a very very complex uh um phenomenon

00:34:39so just my comment on on the difficulty for some many of the social democratic parties is that

00:34:45uh they've got a strong uh opposition to the right-wing conservatives when they're not in power but when

00:34:53they're in power frequently their vision is to manage capitalism better and unfortunately you with the

00:35:00you know the growth of billionaire press ownership and uh international cooperation uh corporations

00:35:08they find themselves trying to manage a decline in uh public spending and a decline you know constraints

00:35:16on on their ability and consequently in britain right now you've got a left-wing government

00:35:21got an overwhelming majority they are hugely unpopular and because what they say is there is no

00:35:30alternative to austerity and more cuts so having opposed it for 10 years of conservatives they're now

00:35:37imposing even more cuts under a labor government and as a result every projection is showing a swing not

00:35:46just to the conservatives but to a new group called reform which is read led by a trump fan and ultra

00:35:56anti-immigrant right-winger core reformer looking like they're going to win and i think this is a

00:36:02consistent pattern for for social democratic parties that either they've got a clear idea of how they manage the

00:36:11economy that doesn't include managing capitalism managing the decline and running it for the corporations

00:36:18or they're inevitably going to face the backlash when they actually get into power and try to manage those cuts

00:36:27and therefore grabbing hold of the you know getting elected but then imposing conservative cuts

00:36:34that's there is it's unsurprising then that there's a a huge shift to nationalism which where people get to

00:36:47blame as you point out escape find look for scapegoats and in the absence of anything else that and with the

00:36:54billionaire press also agreeing that it's all with the immigrants and the gays and you know this is a massive

00:37:02problem for the left across you you know i i i understand this analysis especially when we

00:37:14look at countries like the united kingdom but you cannot compare austria with the united kingdom

00:37:19okay i'm ignorant really of austrian politics i mean you know the countries are so different but

00:37:26but we have for example we have a totally different um income distribution we have still a industrial base

00:37:34we have in vienna for example um

00:37:40public housing is responsible for um

00:37:46let's say that the private sector in the in the in the renting uh in the renting um in the renting

00:37:51market is only 40 percent in vienna 40 30 percent it's very low yeah it's very low and and and and

00:37:59another another 30 percent is um is um um um genossenschaften so um help me michael um corporations

00:38:10um so um um cooperatives yeah cooperatives cooperatives uh so we have um still uh pretty

00:38:23well working public health system it's it's getting worse but it's it's it's still strong we're um

00:38:29we have a we have a totally public um pension system um which is not

00:38:36uh only marginally connected to financial markets um so and the pensions are double as high as in

00:38:44germany um we uh our collective bargaining covers um 95 of all working contracts wow okay so austria

00:38:58you know austria is one of the strongest so after the scandinavians or maybe together with the scandinavians

00:39:04we're one of the most elaborate welfare states in the world um and a high standard of living that is

00:39:12being maintained you know so i i understand vienna is considered one of the nicest cities to work in

00:39:20totally yeah so it always wins the rankings but even in the countries we don't have a poor city

00:39:26so so the german discussion or the british discussion where you can hear from the sound of a city if it's

00:39:32poor or rich we don't have it because you may you may know uh salzburg or innsbruck which has a which

00:39:39has a nice you know sound but also um uh former industrial cities like um linz or wales have totally um

00:39:51incomes totally um um um over average so uh we don't even have this strong regional um like

00:40:02because there is there is a something i wanted to discuss with you because what you are describing

00:40:07is nice and and and peachy but the truth is that for whatever reason that's the question austria in

00:40:15wealth not in incomes but in wealth is much more unequal than uk is or slovakia so really yeah that's

00:40:24that's the irony that's something i don't understand how is it possible that's that's you know even

00:40:30though you have this all this nice things because on data looks different no that's that's a question

00:40:37please yeah that's the welfare state first of all public housing

00:40:45makes a big difference because you have much more private housing in the uk or in

00:40:50or in sweden or in other countries with public housing so public housing is one of the difference

00:40:55the second difference is the public pension system because in the uk all your savings are part of your

00:41:03wealth even your um so even your financial market-based um pension saving pension saving

00:41:13and in austria this public saving is not considered as private wealth so um the data is cute that's what you

00:41:22are saying on paper it looks unequal but in reality austria is more equal wealth wise than slovakia or i don't

00:41:30want okay i don't know because um uh i i haven't seen somebody trying to disaggregate this data in this way but i

00:41:41i tell you with two major assets of of of of average people are their private apartment first and second

00:41:51the private pension um the private um pension savings and both play uh uh

00:42:03and a much more less important role in austria so this is also something that um

00:42:09um has to has to has to be put into consideration no totally no that's that's that's that's good

00:42:15point and when when we take all of austria together because you were talking about vienna and 60 percent of

00:42:21of the public housing how is the all austrian situation because you know vienna is big but it's only like 30

00:42:28percent of all of the populace so it spreads uh i guess it's not as public in other countries or other

00:42:36countries other cities as in as in vienna but it's it's it's like 50 percent of the housing or 40

00:42:42percent of the housing is in public hands in in austria what is the number no you know no no because

00:42:48you know in the countryside you in the countryside you have a lot of uh um obviously obviously but the

00:42:53cities that makes a big difference um but um in in in in western austria in salzburg in spook um you have

00:43:07much bigger problems with uh with private uh renting and and and and and and prices so that that's one of

00:43:15the reasons why the communists were strong in both cities so you know in this very um traditionally

00:43:23conservative areas um the communists had very good results in the city into and uh uh especially

00:43:30in salzburg um but it got 20 percent so one of the main reason is because in the western in the western

00:43:37part of in the western austrian cities it's really expensive to afford a living due to due to housing also

00:43:45also in vienna but vienna is still not munich yeah so compared to munich we are we're good compared to

00:43:51to 2003 uh um it's worse now let's put it like so so what is the percentage of public housing in

00:44:00salzburg when it's 60 percent in vienna then it's like much smaller i don't know i mean roughly like

00:44:0710 percent so that we have perspective when you compare again i can ask i can i can ask gdp if you

00:44:12like okay now i just know i don't know when you're saying that communists won because of this because

00:44:18many lefties in slovakia when i was having discussion with them they were kind of astounded that

00:44:24communists are winning in austria

00:44:29what the heck and that that leads to a question when when you when the communist party in austria

00:44:36isn't the communist party we used to have in slovakia i assume so it's not like stalinist communists

00:44:42i guess that's the question it's the proper communists so what is it because you know when

00:44:48when you say communist party in slovakia then everyone is like ah you know beware

00:44:56it's complicated that's why i'm asking this question because we want to understand it

00:45:00people will be curious what's going on with communists in austria how the heck are they winning there

00:45:06you have so the austrian communist party has lost importance in the 60s okay and there's always

00:45:15been a very very small party with maybe less than one percent in total share of share of total votes

00:45:24until the 2000s or something like this and um and there were two wings a traditional stalinist wing

00:45:33and uh euro communist modern wing within the small party so and the comeback of the communists was

00:45:46through the traditional stalinist wing

00:45:51because these people started in the 90s in the city of graz a very um down-to-earth

00:46:00um service policy regarding housing for for the um poor people in the city

00:46:11and um they were very successful but it took a time they i think in 1998 the first time entered the um

00:46:22um the council

00:46:27it's called um council or something like this so council of graz

00:46:33and then in the in the 2000s they managed to get 20 percent in graz always with one single issue and

00:46:45this was housing and this was housing and they always gave some of their money into a housing fund

00:46:53to of the private of the of the of the private earnings from politicians what they got as politicians

00:47:02to finance um for example a washing machine for somebody poor and um yeah they were um

00:47:12um they were very successful with this kind of policy and then younger people without any stalinist

00:47:21parsed stepped into the party and expanded this concept from grads to seitzburg

00:47:29so for example the guy in seitzburg he's in my age more or less a little bit younger

00:47:34um he's too he's too young to be called a stalinist

00:47:37uh but uh he has got a past in the in the green youth in the youth of the green part

00:47:43okay and then went to the communists so the communists are lucky that they only care about um

00:47:52communists the communists and their allies that they only care about um housing more or less

00:47:59because in a moment where they would have to discuss about ukraine

00:48:02um they would maybe have a terrible fight but there is no need to talk about ukraine so

00:48:09they avoid to do it but in the end you have

00:48:14you know um old left 70 socialized in 70s and 80s um um together with with new left um socialized in

00:48:26the 2000s and 2010s in this um in in these communist parties and their um and their allies

00:48:34and they are gaining momentum now they were successful now in vienna i i think they had like

00:48:40three or four points they they gained a couple of percentage points yes now they have four

00:48:47so they that's still not enough to um no they are small but you know it's not the insignificance of

00:48:54one percent that you were describing from the past so no no that's uh i mean in on a national level

00:49:01it's still very insignificant but um in in in some regional elections especially in styria and in some

00:49:09cities they are there's progress but i wouldn't call it momentum it's steady steady growth let's call it

00:49:19like this i had another big question i wanted to ask you and then tim can discuss these articles that

00:49:26he's interested in is the because from the data i've seen uh around europe for reasons i don't

00:49:33understand and that's the question austria is kind of like the only country that is was able to uh

00:49:40kind of maintain even though it declined maintain the membership base of the political parties when

00:49:49you look at the percentage of people who are politically active who are member of a political

00:49:53party austria is total outlier you from the data i know you are dancing around 16 16 16 so 16 of the

00:50:04electorate is member of a political party all the other countries in europe are way way way below

00:50:10you slovakia is at two percent yeah so you are 800 percent better than we are and the question

00:50:19is how the heck did you manage something that everyone else kind of lost because when you look at

00:50:25great britain as an example up till knows the data it declined when you look at france when you

00:50:31look at germany everywhere in the big countries you can see decline decline decline and okay it

00:50:36declined in austria but not as dramatically and if you know no i i this that's the question because i

00:50:44i have other data on my mind so it was it was always very high or much higher than other countries but

00:50:52there is also a massive decline you know the social democratic so when i was born sorry to interrupt

00:51:00the other question and then i let you speak is for reasons i don't understand spo lost membership but

00:51:07overpad the right-wing party didn't so from the data i know and that's the question that overpay used to

00:51:14have half a million members and they still are dancing around that number and spo as well and then it

00:51:20declined to this 140 000 if it's true i don't know that's that's the question i don't know okay i i i i you know

00:51:30the the conservative party that's difficult because they have that's very different very special they

00:51:37have three um um subdivisions one for the farmers one for economy and one for workers and if you're

00:51:47part of the subdivision they consider you as party member but i think in a serious official um statistic

00:51:55you wouldn't be considered as party member then and um so maybe they got confused so they don't pay

00:52:01membership fees and they are appearing as a party member something like that they pay membership fee to

00:52:07uh it's called economic um okay so so it's not really political membership it's something else exactly

00:52:15okay got it it's it's it's for the conservative it's it's difficult but for the social democrats it's easy

00:52:22um you're a member or not and when i was born in 1982 there were seven million people in austria

00:52:28and 700 000 party members of the social democratic party

00:52:31wow so pretty great but austria was i think austria was was regarding regarding this system it was

00:52:43between east and west it was really really crazy now we have nico what are the reasons why the heck

00:52:53i were the austrian so engaged in politics and in everything as compared with other western european

00:53:00countries i don't understand it that's the question and you are our neighbors so you know you can inspire

00:53:06us to kind of do better job because obviously it's possible you are our neighbors yeah but we shouldn't

00:53:13we shouldn't romanticize it there's a lot of patronage you know nico i'm not throwing roses at you

00:53:20i think that's what numbers are saying it's impressive it the the question sounds like it's a cultural

00:53:29thing or an education that i'm not quite so sure it is i think that success something successful pulls in

00:53:38people being attracted by it if it wasn't successful it wouldn't be so big

00:53:42um i mean the the the main the main success is the red vienna of the 20s

00:53:50um i don't know if you've heard about it but um when you go through vienna you will see that the

00:53:56most beautiful and largest um buildings of of um public housing um are um from the 1920s and early 1930s

00:54:07and all this and and these and these were at the time largely

00:54:17i mean socialist endeavors i mean there were initiatives i made from the from the socialists

00:54:23at the time and they were they're happy to call themselves socialists and hence you know the totally

00:54:28carl marx you know carl marx's name rosa luxembourg and all the rest of it and the influence of those ideas

00:54:34um on the ideas of the time now they backtracked on that ideology uh significantly since then and

00:54:43of course we're right to reject the communist old communist parties and the growth of stalinism

00:54:49but at the time that those uh unashamed socialist ideas gave rise to something that got a lot of public support

00:54:57it did and on the other hand you had um historically a very strong catholic um base in the countryside and

00:55:08a very strong church so we are you you must always think we are not northern europeans regarding religion

00:55:15regarding religion we're thousands you know we are we are and protestants don't play a role in austria so

00:55:21like you know all the southern european countries had strong communist parties and we had the most we

00:55:30had the most left-wing social democratic so this is um and and we had the same cultural fight between

00:55:40socialists and catholics like in um don camillo and pepone uh if if you know the movie um from from the

00:55:4950s in italy between uh communists and um and catholics so all this cultural all this cultural fight was

00:55:57always very very strong and therefore um but it's ironic that i grew up a catholic myself and yet most of

00:56:07the trade unions were all ex-catholics most of the trade union reps were all ex-catholics

00:56:13yeah or still catholics or still calling themselves catholics you know like but but nevertheless the

00:56:20catholics dominated pretty much lots of the left wing in the union movement we have a very strong

00:56:28we have a very strong catholic labor movement in austria it's it's not as strong as it was

00:56:33uh 40 years ago but we still have one so um yeah and uh and that it's there are more historical reasons

00:56:45but always michael you know that once more than 100 years ago we were one country the habsburg monarchy

00:56:54and vienna was the capital of the monarchy with in 1900 vienna was the fourth largest city in the world

00:57:01world so then the empire collapsed and then you have this two million city in a six million country

00:57:09a total cosmopolitan um cosmopolitan uh

00:57:15city with 200 000 jews avant-garde artists everything in a small alpine

00:57:24country with very conservative um rural population and catholic and and so from this

00:57:31cultural fight and tension comes all the um all the austrian political tradition of the 20th century

00:57:44and a huge so you were lucky unlucky sort of yeah that it disintegrated that's how you kept your

00:57:50momentum the leftists in austria because it kind of that's what i'm reading from what you're saying yeah

00:57:56you you kind of kept the capital and because of the disintegration of the habsburg monarchy it was as big

00:58:03as it was so it was like a hub of progressivism in the sea of well i wouldn't call it you know whatever

00:58:12catholicism or what and that's how you manage that's that's the explanation that you know that's how it

00:58:20it kept alive it has a history to its growth that's what you're saying you know it's the history of the

00:58:28of the movement starts back in the 20s and its success has a resonance through the years through the

00:58:35decades so it didn't come from nowhere it doesn't just spring from the the culture of austrians it has a

00:58:43history that it has a history that results you know and and you asked me why we have so many party members

00:58:52and the reason is the polarization of these two um movements the catholic and the socialist one

00:59:01mm-hmm with a civil war in 1934 with a civil war like in spain

00:59:07just it was spanish civil war three years i was i was three days but uh but there was a civil war and

00:59:16there was a catholic fascist regime four years before hitler came wow okay i knew about hitler coming

00:59:24in i didn't i didn't know that there was a civil war but i did know that there was a phrase on the left

00:59:29you know rather rather vienna than the new than berlin or something that and it was the capitulation

00:59:36of berlin and the left-wing groups there compared to the fight and that the literal civil war battle

00:59:46in vienna when they tried to impose you know when they tried to exterminate and dismantle much of the

00:59:53left-wing groups they they fought bitterly to retain it yeah but but but that was in 34 and so

01:00:03berlin fell to the nazis and vienna fell to the you know a conservative austrian um

01:00:12fascism closer to mussolini and franco but but they fought bitterly didn't they it didn't just last

01:00:18it wasn't overnight it was a there was there were there were fights yeah but um but um the

01:00:28in the end the army came in the the army came in and the party um and the party leaders decided not to

01:00:35fight uh-huh okay i'd like to ask you about your article about this left right and free trade and

01:00:44stuff like that because there's a lot of excitement right now as or rejection of american uh as they

01:00:52try to turn free trade on its head and introduced uh protectionism there in the states and i just

01:00:59wondered what what your thoughts are as whether there's lessons from history here as the you know

01:01:04the british empire was all in favor of free trade when its empire's dominant in the 1830s and then

01:01:10introduced protectionism pretty much at the decline of the british empire in the 1930s and many of the

01:01:17european states in fact then switched to protectionism more or used their markets or their old their colonial

01:01:26states and introduced protectionism as a result and and of course that then you know worryingly for today

01:01:36results in the antagonism between different states so on the one hand i i agree with you in your

01:01:46assessment that the left is traditionally opposed to some of the world the world trade organization

01:01:52attempts to introduce more free market conditions for good reason you know they were going to introduce worse

01:02:00food regulations for instance or if if they'd introduce um monsanto the the uh what was it there

01:02:10the global international monsanto you mean no yeah monsanto yeah yeah what they were doing they

01:02:18genetically modified food would become the norm in europe and many of the european uh states were

01:02:24were rightly resistant of of this idea that they had to open up their markets to this pollute you know

01:02:30this modified food but i think in your article you pointed out well this opened the door to them being sued

01:02:37by those corporations themselves and not allowing these these uh corporations in or many other regulators like

01:02:46pharmaceutical industry or others would have then had lawsuits in the european union courts because they

01:02:55were not in uh following free trade agreements in the end the whole thing collapsed and there wasn't a

01:03:01trade agreement between the us and and the eu and and i i would have been one and that was firmly against those

01:03:10free trade agreements today it's it's trump that's now turning them on their head and saying he he

01:03:16doesn't want free trade he wants tariffs he wants protectionism he wants america first um and there's

01:03:23shock horror about it but i think it's a mistake for the for the left to think we're all in favor of free

01:03:29trade actually free trade comes with um largely with support for big corporations are the ones that were

01:03:38posed to benefit the most but i think it's um indicative of american

01:03:47a decline of their empire if you like but they are losing the international trade battle if you like

01:03:55the competition between one country and another china's increasing not um america so they then with

01:04:03their military right can introduce protectionism but and initially it may even benefit america in the

01:04:11short term but long term it it gives rise to this antagonism between one state and another and i think

01:04:18it's quite well worried development that what america is about to do may benefit american workers

01:04:26temporarily but long term it increases antagonism internationally so you think it's do you think

01:04:35there's any parallels between the decline of the british empire and their and their switch to

01:04:41protections in the eight and nineteen thirties and america's introduction of protections and now

01:04:47good question um

01:05:00i think um

01:05:05i think the difference is that british empire

01:05:10i mean they lost their industrial

01:05:12um advantage already in the late 19th century regarding germany for example um so um

01:05:23the the period when the uk was uh the industrial powerhouse of the world and the largest exporter

01:05:31that was uh before world war one or even even earlier

01:05:37uh and in this period i think that um

01:05:45exporting the most productive goods was assigned for a very uh productive high-skilled industry and um

01:05:58for a lot of um

01:06:01for uh for wealth

01:06:03uh for economic wealth it was a proxy for economic wealth um trading industrial goods

01:06:12was a proxy for economic wealth

01:06:14now is the question is trading industrial goods in our world a proxy for economic wealth

01:06:20and liberals would say no it isn't because the americans they don't need to do this

01:06:26this simple fabrication stuff that can be made in china and vietnam what they need is silicon valley what they

01:06:35need is wall street um what they need is um high-skilled service sector um they need the tech labs

01:06:45and not the fabrication this is the liberal view on the division of labor so they say

01:06:53the americans the americans are crazy to um try to get back um their traditional um manufacturing

01:07:02because obviously the american gdp per capita is higher than

01:07:08all european country i think except norway um and therefore um

01:07:14um that would be crazy to um to stop the division of labor um it's it's better to have a high

01:07:23productive service sector and let the others make i don't know cars or whatever or car components

01:07:31and um yeah i think just one comment on that you know there's this nonsense that somehow the chinese

01:07:39or the asian economy stole american jobs whereas it's actually those corporations themselves that shifted

01:07:45production to asia to china to to wherever they could get the labor cheapest it wasn't it wasn't the

01:07:53asian companies somehow stepping in and you know stealing american jobs it's the corporations themselves

01:07:59that move the jobs abroad for those very reasons that you're pointing out of course

01:08:04it's so much cheaper historically historically of course it's true but

01:08:12the this is the traditional liberal view from the obama period from the clinton period

01:08:19and today many defenders of a global of a global liberal order would argue like this and now we have

01:08:29on the other hand um i mean trump is too stupid uh and and and to you know he's his power obsessive and

01:08:39whatever he does so he he's more type we don't know why he does something but when we look uh

01:08:47for jd vance or or in or in cars i i don't know if you've heard about him or other thinkers of the new

01:08:55right they would they would argue no the industrial base is um absolutely important for uh economic

01:09:05wealth um it's important for having a broad middle class because this is a medium medium skilled and medium

01:09:13paid jobs um and um so to make the american family to make the average american family again um

01:09:22um wealthy uh we need these jobs in the us to be globally more independent we need these jobs in the us

01:09:31and um our trade deficit is a symbol for um having lost all this industrial base so these are two

01:09:40totally different point of views um regarding this industry-based um economic model

01:09:52and um i think both are um both are um

01:10:02purely both are wrong um but i tend a little bit more to to um to the jd wenz camp

01:10:14than to the liberal camp um because i think that i think that the industrial base um

01:10:22is connected to the tech labs i think you have learning by doing in you know in the publication

01:10:28process in the manufacturing progress so you cannot have only research and development and um

01:10:39and and uh artificial intelligence without um getting the you know um the feedback from the

01:10:48from the production process so if you want if you want to have a high productive industrial base or

01:10:57high productive economy i think you should have both and therefore um i think that the european way not

01:11:07the british but the german austrian swiss swedish scandinavian north italian way of industrial policy and

01:11:18industrial tradition is um is smart so gaining abroad uh remaining

01:11:28uh a broad um industrial base but also um put a lot of effort on um research development and um and

01:11:38um yeah high productive services but this is a very um very um so now you ask me the economist

01:11:50so it's it goes very deep into into economics

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ROZHOVORY - 18 - O Rakúskej ľavici

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