How will Modi doctrine rein in Pakistan-based terror? Experts debate

India Today

Prime Minister Narendra Modi addressed the nation following Operation Sindoor, outlining a new doctrine on dealing with Pakistan-based terrorism.

Transcript

00:00:00Good evening, hello and welcome. You're with the news today. This is your prime time destination. News,

00:00:05newsmakers, talking points, another big news day. Prime Minister Narendra Modi's big message to

00:00:10Pakistan is addressed to the nation. The Modi doctrine, terror and talks cannot coexist,

00:00:17nor can blood and water. India will be undeterred by nuclear blackmail. You hit us,

00:00:24we'll hit you back and treat it as an act of war. How will this actually operate on the ground?

00:00:30What is really the big message of the Modi doctrine? All that and more on this news today special.

00:00:42Prime Minister Narendra Modi has addressed the nation for the first time since the

00:00:47Pahelgaam terror strike and Operation Sindhu. The Prime Minister has made it clear India won't take

00:00:54nuclear blackmail from Pakistan lying down. The Prime Minister made it clear this was only a pause

00:01:00in the fight against terrorists in Pakistan. The Prime Minister claimed Pakistan was the one which

00:01:06went begging for an exit route and had assured action for terror and pleaded for a ceasefire.

00:01:13The Prime Minister claims that India has achieved an objective of demolishing terror infrastructure.

00:01:18Prime Minister claimed Operation Sindhu is a pledge for justice and India was united and would not

00:01:25allow those trying to use terror to divide people. Strong messages from the Prime Minister also saying

00:01:33that this fight is not just against terror but also against the sponsors of terror. A direct message

00:01:39in a way to the Pakistani army state that any terror strike will effectively now be seen as an act of war

00:01:48against India. Take a look at what the Prime Minister said.

00:01:52this time,

00:02:20सरकार और आतंग के आकाओं को अलग अलग नहीं देखेंगे मैं आज विश्व समुदाय को भी कहूंगा

00:02:37हमारी गोशित नीती रही है

00:02:43अगर पाकिस्तान से बात होगी तो टेररिजम पर ही होगी

00:02:53अगर पाकिस्तान से बात होगी तो पाक अक्यूपाइड कश्वीर पी ओ के उस पर ही होगी

00:03:05पाकिस्तानी फोज पाकिस्तान की सरकार जिस तरह आत्माइड को खात पानी दे रहे हैं

00:03:18वो एक दिन पाकिस्तान को ही समाप्त कर देगा

00:03:25पाकिस्तान को अगर बचना है तो उसे अपने टेरर इंफ्रास्ट्रक्चर का सफाया करना ही होगा

00:03:38इसके अलावा शांती का कोई रास्ता नहीं है भारत की आक्रमक कारवाई के बाद

00:03:49पाकिस्तान बचने के रास्ते खोजने लगा पाकिस्तान दुनिया भर में तनाव कम करने के लिए गुहार लगा रहा था

00:04:05और बुरी तरह पिटने के बात इसी मजबूरी में दस मै की दोपर को

00:04:16पाकिस्तानी सेना ने हमारे डी जी एमो को संपर्क किया

00:04:25तब तक हम आतंगवाद के इंफ्रास्रक्चर को बड़े पैमाने पर तबाह कर चुके थे

00:04:37आतंकियों को मौत के घाट उतार दिया गया था

00:04:43पाकिस्तान के सीने में बसाए गये आतंके अड़ों को हमने खंडहर बना दिया था

00:04:55इसलिए जब पाकिस्तान की तरफ से गुहार लगाई गई पाकिस्तान की तरफ से

00:05:07जब यह कहा गया कि उसकी और से आगे कोई आतंकी गतिविधी और सैन्य दुस्साहस नहीं दिखाया जाएगा

00:05:22तो भारत ने भी उस पर विचार किया भारत का मत एक दम्स पश्ट है

00:05:34टेरर और टॉप एक साथ नहीं हो सकते

00:05:42टेरर और ट्रेड एक साथ नहीं चल सकते

00:05:50और पानी और खुन भी एक साथ नहीं बैसकता

00:05:59जब पाकिस्तान में आतंक के अड्डों पर भारत की मिसाइलों ने हमला बोला

00:06:12भारत के ड्रोंस ने हमला बोला तो आतंक की संग्ठोनों की इमारते नहीं बलकि उनका होसला भी थर्रा गया

00:06:28बहावलपूर और मुरित के जैसे आतंक की ठिकाने एक प्रकार से ग्लोबल टेररिजम की युनिवर्सिटीज रही है

00:06:47दुनिया में कहीं पर भी जो बड़े आतंक की हमले हुए हैं चाहे 9-11 हो चाहे लंदन ट्यूब बॉंबिंग हो

00:07:04या भारत में दसकों से जो बड़े बड़े आतंक की हमले हुए हैं

00:07:12उन सब के तार कहीं न कहीं आतंक के इहनी ठिकानों से जुड़ते रहें

00:07:21आतंक क्यों ने हमारी बहनों का सिंदूर उजाड़ा था

00:07:29इसलिए भारत ने आतंक के ये हेड़क्वार्टर्स उजाड़ दिये

00:07:39भारत के इन हमलों में सो से अधीक खुंकार आतंक बादियों को

00:07:50मौत के घाट उतारा गया है आतंक के बहुत सारे आंका बीते

00:08:01धाई तीन दसकों से खुले आम पाकिस्तान में घूम रहे थे जो भारत के खिलाप साजी

00:08:12से करते थे उन्हें भारत ने एक जट्रके में खत्म कर दिया दुनिया ने पाकिस्तान का वो घिनोना सच्पिर देखा है

00:08:29जब मारे गए आतंकियों को बिदाई दे ने पाकिस्तानी सेना के बड़े बड़े अपसर उमड़ पड़े

00:08:42स्टेट स्पोंसर तर्जम का ये बहुत बड़ा सबूत है

00:08:48हम भारत और अपने नागरिकों को किसी भी खत्रे से बचाने के लिए

00:08:59लगातार निर्णा एक कदम उठाते रहेंगे

00:09:05Strong words from Prime Minister Modi, but the big question, how will this Modi doctrine now reign in Pakistan-based terror?

00:09:17Have we now drawn a new red line with our neighbor, our hostile neighbor?

00:09:24That's the question that Narendra Modi's tough words will raise.

00:09:28Joining me now is Raj Chengappa, Editorial Director at India Today.

00:09:33He joins me, veteran of covering many India-Pakistan stories.

00:09:38I'm also joined by another veteran, Dr. Sanjay Baru, veteran journalist

00:09:42and someone who was part of Manmohan Singh's Prime Minister's office

00:09:47and Geetha Mohan, our Diplomatic Affairs Editor, who I'm going to first.

00:09:50Geetha, how is this speech being now seen?

00:09:54The strong words by the Prime Minister, what kind of reactions are we getting at the moment,

00:10:00particularly from all the diplomats and others you've been speaking to?

00:10:05Well, too early for reactions to come in, Rajdeep.

00:10:08We'll start rolling out reactions in just a while from now.

00:10:11But yes, it just comes after the big announcement by US President Donald Trump.

00:10:17Having said that, Prime Minister Narendra Modi, for the first time, made the entire policy official.

00:10:24For the past two days, we've been saying on the basis of sources that the government has shifted its stance

00:10:30and its policy, saying that an act of terror will now be considered as an act of war.

00:10:35Prime Minister Narendra Modi has spelled that out in no uncertain words.

00:10:40So that's very important.

00:10:41It's not just a shift, Rajdeep.

00:10:43It's also a message to the world and to those who are saying and thinking

00:10:47that there was a lot of pressure that was being mounted on India,

00:10:50that if there's an act of terror, there is going to be a military response.

00:10:55The world can think what they want to, the world can say what they want to,

00:10:58but please do not call New Delhi to say de-escalate.

00:11:01If they want de-escalation, it should happen from the perpetrators.

00:11:05And here he said the AKAs, the ones behind the terror attacks,

00:11:11which he meant was the Pakistani state and the establishment.

00:11:14So that's a clear message coming in.

00:11:16The University of Terror.

00:11:17The University of Terror, as he's called it, they are the ones who are,

00:11:21and he widened its scope, Raj Chengappa, not just to include what happened to India,

00:11:26but across the world, that this is a country which for decades now has been sponsoring terror.

00:11:31How do you interpret that message?

00:11:33Do we now have a new strategic doctrine in place which says enough of diplomatic restraint?

00:11:38We will now treat every terror attack as an act of war operation.

00:11:43Sindur is the new normal.

00:11:46I think let's call it more on the red lines, right?

00:11:48Strategic doctrines, you could term it in various other ways.

00:11:52And if you look at that, first is that the quantum of punishment is a dramatic improvement,

00:11:58I mean, escalation over what happened in Balakot.

00:12:01You are hitting one camp and mainly foot soldiers.

00:12:04Here you are now virtually cutting the head of the snake off, right?

00:12:07You are hitting the headquarters of Lashkar-e-Taiba as well as Jayshi Mohamed.

00:12:12And the second big message is, so you are going out to the leaders.

00:12:15You are not, you know, just trying to make a hit at the ground level.

00:12:20The second, I think, big thing is geography is not a constraint.

00:12:24There is no place to hide.

00:12:25We will hit you wherever you are.

00:12:27And that's the big message that's there.

00:12:28And the third is a big message for Pakistan, that we are willing to get into Punjab,

00:12:33which is your heartland, close to the capital.

00:12:35We will strike you where it hurts you the most.

00:12:37We are unafraid of your nuclear blackmail that you sort of thought you would always get away with.

00:12:44And the other aspect is that, you know, when it came to toughness in terms of what ahead,

00:12:51he was very clear that there will be no, you know, terror.

00:12:55I mean, no talks of this terror still.

00:12:58In terms of trade also, we are going to cut off.

00:13:01And he also mentioned blood and water will not mix, which means that the Indus water is going to be an issue as we look ahead.

00:13:08And very, very interestingly, also mentioned POK.

00:13:11There was one aspect of it, which I think Pakistan should take note of, that he talked of the fact that Pakistan themselves will have to come to terms and cleanse themselves.

00:13:23So there is an opening in terms of the development side that Pakistan must now move in a different direction.

00:13:30And that's very valid because I feel if you have to really get away from the trap that they're in, Pakistan must start focusing on developing their virtual basket case that is...

00:13:40So there's a very, very tough message to Pakistan in the prime minister's message.

00:13:45Not just limited to non-state actors, as the terrorists were called, but to the Pakistani army state as well.

00:13:53That's the distinction.

00:13:54Until now, Pakistan has tried to make a distinction between non-state actors, i.e. the terrorist groups, and the state of Pakistan.

00:14:01The prime minister is not making that distinction anymore.

00:14:05I want to come to you, Dr. Sanjay Baru.

00:14:08Are we seeing, therefore, a radical departure from how previous governments dealt with terror?

00:14:14Now the prime minister is claiming Operation Sindhuur is the new normal.

00:14:18You hit us, we will come right into your heartland and strike you undeterred by nuclear blackmail.

00:14:26Well, I mean, Rajdeep, first of all, we have still not found out who these terrorists were in Palgam who came and killed 26 Indians.

00:14:35They are still at large.

00:14:36We don't know who exactly they are, where did they come?

00:14:39I think I understand entirely the prime minister's approach, the government's approach under the circumstances.

00:14:48I think going forward, it's very important for us to be careful that we do not destabilize the region by reacting in this manner to every terror attack.

00:14:58I mean, we are then giving the initiative to random terrorists.

00:15:03After all, how many people are involved in Palgam?

00:15:05Five, six?

00:15:07When you can get a group of terrorists staging a terror attack and then put two nations at war.

00:15:13So I'm not convinced that this is a doctrine that can be sustained.

00:15:18You can have another terror attack day after tomorrow and then again we are back at war.

00:15:23So I think we need a long-term strategy to deal with Pakistan.

00:15:27This has been the argument, I mean, this has been the view of Prime Minister Vajpayee, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in the past that while terrorism is there under so many governments from Narasimha Rao's time, we have seen terrorism.

00:15:40But what is a long-term solution?

00:15:43Threatening Pakistan, I understand, under the circumstances.

00:15:47Warning Pakistan that will go after you if you do it again is entirely understandable.

00:15:51But if we are subject to random attacks by elements that we cannot identify, after all, we have not yet identified the elements in Palgam, then are we exposing our country to continuous destabilization?

00:16:06Is this a wise long-term strategy for India and Pakistan?

00:16:10That's one question I would like to pose to the government.

00:16:14Second, I think the fact is that the response of the international community for the very first time was fundamentally different from the past.

00:16:25You look at the way in which the world reacted in November 2008 when we had the Mumbai attack or even in the Balakor.

00:16:33And this time, I mean, could the International Monetary Fund not have postponed its meeting at least by a week and said that, look, there are hostilities between these two countries.

00:16:43Let's meet a week later.

00:16:45They met in the middle of hostilities.

00:16:47That was a message to India.

00:16:49So, and today, Trump's remarks just before the Prime Minister's address that he got in and separated the two.

00:16:57I think, you know, these are all questions that the current situation poses to which we do not have clear answers.

00:17:04Let me bring in a guest who is joining us from Washington at the moment.

00:17:10I'm joined by Michael Rubin, former Pentagon official, senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.

00:17:18Appreciate your joining us, Mr. Rubin.

00:17:20But before that, just to let you know that U.S. President Donald Trump a short while ago spoke, and he too, on India and Pakistan, gave us some breaking news.

00:17:32Trump said he was the one who stopped a nuclear conflict.

00:17:35That was the breaking news that came in a little while ago.

00:17:38Trump said, I told both sides to stop fighting.

00:17:41Trump claims he pressured India and Pakistan for a ceasefire and will do a lot of trade now with both.

00:17:48Just listen in to what Donald Trump said, and then I'll get a reaction from my guest in Washington.

00:17:53On Saturday, my administration helped broker a full and immediate ceasefire, I think a permanent one, between India and Pakistan, ending a dangerous conflict of two nations with lots of nuclear weapons.

00:18:10And they were going at it hot and heavy, and it was seemingly not going to stop.

00:18:17And I'm very proud to let you know that the leadership of India and Pakistan was unwavering, powerful, but unwavering in both cases.

00:18:29And having these, they really were, from the standpoint of having the strength and the wisdom and fortitude to fully know and to understand the gravity of the situation.

00:18:40And we helped a lot.

00:18:44And we helped also with trade.

00:18:46I said, come on, we're going to do a lot of trade with you guys.

00:18:49Let's stop it.

00:18:50Let's stop it.

00:18:52If you stop it, we're doing trade.

00:18:53If you don't stop it, we're not going to do any trade.

00:18:56People have never really used trade the way I used it, that I can tell you.

00:19:00And all of a sudden, they said, I think we're going to stop.

00:19:04And they have.

00:19:06Michael Rubin, how are we to see what Donald Trump said a while ago?

00:19:10Is America truly playing the role here of an honest dealmaker?

00:19:14Or is this Donald Trump simply not following any process when he claims credit for bringing this conflict to at least a pause at the moment?

00:19:23Well, the thing to understand about Donald Trump is that he also single-handedly won the Cricket World Cup, he landed on the moon, and he invented the Internet.

00:19:34The fact of the matter is Donald Trump is prone to exaggeration, and he's also speaking to the American audience.

00:19:40He shouldn't be taken literally.

00:19:42I am absolutely sure, however, that the United States was scrambling behind the scenes to try to pass messages along and to try to derail any escalation that could lead to unrestricted warfare.

00:19:56So I think it's a little bit untoward.

00:20:01It's impolite.

00:20:01It's navel-gazing for Donald Trump to try to claim credit for everything.

00:20:06It does India a disservice and Pakistan a disservice.

00:20:09The last thing is what I would read into Donald Trump's comments is still a troubling deference to moral equivalency between India and Pakistan in terms of who was the aggressor and who was the victim.

00:20:24That's a great point you made there, Michael.

00:20:27Is that a worry, though, that Donald Trump, and that's a worry here in New Delhi, that here is an American president not making a distinction between the perpetrators of terror,

00:20:36and not just terror against India, but as Prime Minister Modi enunciated against the world.

00:20:41This is the same country that housed Osama bin Laden.

00:20:44So does Donald Trump need a lesson, in a sense, in South Asian geopolitics when he tries to equate India and Pakistan, the perpetrator of terror, with the victim of terror here?

00:20:55And why is he doing it?

00:20:55Well, I think, first of all, we saw that Donald Trump needs a lesson in South Asia when he said that this conflict had been going on for more than a thousand years across the border.

00:21:04The fact of the matter is Donald Trump doesn't know the details.

00:21:07He's often speaking from the cuff.

00:21:09The good news is, however, he has a strong relation with Prime Minister Modi, and he also has a team which understands the reality of South Asia much more than the president does.

00:21:22And so then the question is, how do you allow the president of the United States to save face while getting spun up to speed on the situation?

00:21:31We have seen, for example, in American reporting, that in the more than 100 days which Donald Trump has been in office, he has skipped all but 12 of his presidential daily briefs, the daily CIA briefings about world affairs.

00:21:46Perhaps he really does need an education right now.

00:21:49And the point that you make also in a tweet I saw, that here is a president who failed to stop Pakistan, you know, the nuclear threat which has been held out from time to time whenever there's been a conflict between India and Pakistan.

00:22:08Today, Prime Minister Modi making it very clear, we will not be deterred by nuclear blackmail.

00:22:12Does Donald Trump recognize the dangers that, dare I call it, a rogue army state in Pakistan holds while it has the nuclear button and therefore needs to send them a tough message?

00:22:26Put it this way, he will ultimately understand this.

00:22:30I worry about the damage that could be done before he doesn't.

00:22:33And you know what, his legacy, if he's not careful, is not only going to be the exasperation of the situation in Pakistan, but it's also going to be Pakistan transforming Bangladesh into a twin of state sponsorship of terror.

00:22:53And so, look, every president since George H.W. Bush had his foreign policy legacy defined by the crisis which no one saw coming during his campaign.

00:23:05And Donald Trump is no different.

00:23:07He wasn't thinking about India or Pakistan when he was campaigning against Kamala Harris.

00:23:13However, the way he reacts now is really going to be how history judges him.

00:23:19He's dug himself into a bit of a hole, but it's not too late to dig out and recognize the reality.

00:23:26But I would also put some of the onus for educating Donald Trump on Prime Minister Modi.

00:23:34He has a personal relationship.

00:23:36He needs to use it.

00:23:38The historical analogy I would make is when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in 1990, President George H.W. Bush wasn't sure how to respond.

00:23:49And Margaret Thatcher, with whom he had a personal relationship, said, don't go wobbly on me now, George.

00:23:55We need a similar moment between Prime Minister Modi and Donald Trump.

00:24:01I'll come back to you in a moment, Michael, because you're making very, very strong and very important points.

00:24:06But Raj Chengappa, this is precisely the problem.

00:24:09Prime Minister Modi has enunciated the Modi doctrine very clearly, that there's a red line that we've drawn in a way with Pakistan-based terror.

00:24:17The world needs to wake up to it.

00:24:19We've just heard the U.S. president once again hyphenating India and Pakistan, saying he wants to do trade with both great nations.

00:24:28Is that, in a sense, part of where India is going to have to navigate this very closely?

00:24:34Yes, every act of terror is a provocation.

00:24:37But how far can you go when dealing with an unstable Pakistani army state?

00:24:43Is that the concern that we still have to have going forward?

00:24:47Well, you know, the evaluation of the entire Operation Sindur, as well as the Pakistan response, there is a lot of, you know, lack of clarity.

00:24:58Let's still say the fog of war exists as to what really happened.

00:25:01And if you look at the comments that both President Trump and his deputy secretary of state, Marco Rubio, talked about, you will see that he talks of a meeting that we are supposed to have, India is supposed to have with Pakistan on neutral grounds and with key issues.

00:25:21Where is the dissonance coming from?

00:25:23Because the Indians denied fully and the Pakistan, of course, Pakistanis, of course, are quite happy that America is getting involved.

00:25:31So I'm not very clear where this, I did try to find out how did this all emanate.

00:25:36Certainly, Marco, his secretary of state and Donald Trump would have played a role in calming things down.

00:25:42We do know that the secretary of state did go and speak to, did call General Asim Munir.

00:25:49And what were the circumstances that led it?

00:25:51What we can see is evidence that, one, India had made some decisive strikes.

00:25:57Two, that India had achieved its objectives in the first 30 minutes of the war itself, if you would like to call it, when it struck the camps in Muridke and...

00:26:07Bawalpur.

00:26:08Bawalpur.

00:26:08And therefore, you know, inflicted pain and kept to it.

00:26:13So after that was all escalatory steps that Pakistan was taking.

00:26:16And if you see the final step where India hits the air bases hard, was that a moment of panic for Asim Munir?

00:26:23And therefore, he ran to the, as they say, cry for the uncle and go.

00:26:26No, that's what Mr. Modi says.

00:26:28Mr. Modi says Pakistan begged the world to end this conflict.

00:26:32But let us also be, you know, if you look at it, India had actually right through said, we do not want to escalate it beyond the first strike that we did.

00:26:43And Pakistan, after doing what it had to do, was also looking for an exit ramp.

00:26:48But the problem was, I think it had escalated so rapidly to a point that when two nuclear powers clash like this, mistakes of any kind would be disastrous.

00:26:59Not just for India and the world.

00:27:01So I don't know where the context is coming from.

00:27:03But certainly, you know, America getting into this picture and Trump, I mean, you always have to take Donald Trump with a pinch of salt.

00:27:11I think you made a very important point which Sanjay Baru also made.

00:27:14And I want to press on that because today we are discussing this Modi doctrine.

00:27:18If I may be, he's not used that word.

00:27:20I'm calling it that when he says Operation Sindhuur is the new normal.

00:27:23The worry, of course, is that, yes, while we need to send a tough message to Pakistan, it can also result in misadventure.

00:27:32You, Dr. Baru, were part of regimes that spoke of strategic restraint.

00:27:37Now, that did not deter Pakistan.

00:27:39We are 26-11.

00:27:41We've had attacks on our parliament.

00:27:44So Mr. Modi is taking us in a new direction.

00:27:47Now, surely, if what happened in the past didn't work, maybe we've got to try the Modi way of teaching Pakistan a lesson.

00:27:57Yes, I mean, I don't think anybody would disagree with that.

00:27:59That is why there was national unity on this issue.

00:28:02The opposition political parties also supported the government on the action they were taking.

00:28:08So I don't think that the debate is about whether the government was right or wrong in doing what it did.

00:28:13I think the real issues are going forward.

00:28:16If this is the approach that after every terror attack, we will go and hit, you are giving the initiative to the terrorists.

00:28:23And we don't know who these terrorists are.

00:28:25We have alleged that they are coming from Pakistan.

00:28:27But we still don't know who these chaps who came into Pahlgham are.

00:28:31And tomorrow you could have another attack in other parts of the country.

00:28:34After all, they came from across the sea to Mumbai in 2008.

00:28:37If we lock ourselves into this, you know, strategy that you hit me, I will hit you back, then we are getting into a spiral of destabilization of the subcontinent.

00:28:50And I don't think that's in the long term the right strategy.

00:28:54In the long term, we need a strategy that stabilizes the subcontinent.

00:28:58Now, what is that strategy?

00:28:59It's for people in government to think about.

00:29:01But the fact, if I may, if I'm, you know, the fact is over the last three decades, we've not been able to find that strategy with Pakistan in particular.

00:29:09That's not the point, Rajdeep.

00:29:10Let me finish.

00:29:11I mean, yes, we have tried one strategy in the past that didn't work.

00:29:15We are trying another strategy now.

00:29:17It may or may not work.

00:29:18But I do think there are serious issues.

00:29:21There are serious issues about what exactly is the final solution.

00:29:27Now, you know, what is the final solution?

00:29:29Is the occupation of POK the final solution?

00:29:34After all, the Indian parliament has said that.

00:29:36Amit Shah has said that.

00:29:38We will go and take back POK.

00:29:40Is that the final solution?

00:29:41Is that what the international community will support us on?

00:29:44Of course not.

00:29:46And we have had an issue this time that world opinion is not fully convinced about the strategy we have adopted.

00:29:53So there are issues.

00:29:55I'm not criticizing the government for doing what they did.

00:29:58After all, they have more information than all of us.

00:30:01But going forward, will this strategy be a stable strategy?

00:30:06Or will it destabilize the subcontinent?

00:30:08That's the concern I have.

00:30:09I take your point.

00:30:10And I think you raise a valid concern that I want you, Kaval Sibbal, to address.

00:30:13Michael, I'll come to you in a moment.

00:30:15Kaval Sibbal, former foreign secretary, joining us.

00:30:17Sanjay Baru is raising a concern.

00:30:19Yes, Modi doctrine, tough kinetic action.

00:30:21But is there an end game?

00:30:23As we saw even with Operation Sindhu.

00:30:25Suddenly, just as we had bombed Pakistan air bases, few hours later, we had pulled out and agreed to an understanding with Pakistan.

00:30:33Is there a fear that this doctrine sounds very good?

00:30:36But how do you get off an escalatory spiral when you are dealing with Pakistan?

00:30:41How do you see the Prime Minister's speech, Mr. Sibbal?

00:30:44Well, I have not heard the speech, but as I see on the takeaways that you are publishing just now, and I think it's a very tough message.

00:30:55And I see it as a message to Trump, because Trump has, to my mind, unnecessarily gone out of his way to put pressure on India, of equating India and Pakistan politically, militarily, morally,

00:31:10trying to internationalize the Kashmir issue, offering mediation.

00:31:15And his line, obviously, will give incentive to Pakistan not to draw the right lessons from what has happened, as well as other partners of the United States.

00:31:26It's unfortunate.

00:31:27But do you support the essence of the Modi doctrine that every act of terror will now effectively be seen as an act of war?

00:31:37That we will not just spare the terrorists, we will also strike against their sponsors.

00:31:43So, we will go into air bases in Pakistan, we will go into Babalpur, Mureetke.

00:31:48Do you support that, or do you believe this can lead to miscalculations?

00:31:52No, I don't think that this is the meaning of what Prime Minister is saying.

00:31:56I mean, if it is a minor attack, let's say a chap from other parts of India is killed in Jammu and Kashmir, as it has happened, some local Kashmiris are killed.

00:32:07It depends on the nature, the size of the attack.

00:32:11And then we have to decide whether it is an attack that merits a strong response from us.

00:32:17True, it is a difficult proposition, even if there is a small attack, you can't go and start bombing their bases, because then there is a big cost that everyone pays.

00:32:28But there will now be a great inhibition on the part of Pakistan.

00:32:32Unless, of course, we think that Pakistan is totally mad.

00:32:33You think this will deter Pakistan?

00:32:35You think this will deter Pakistan?

00:32:37You think this will deter Pakistan?

00:32:39Oh, absolutely.

00:32:40Absolutely.

00:32:40They must have also drawn the right lessons from what has happened.

00:32:44Just as we have drawn some lessons that we should be very careful in not treating every act of terrorism as an act of war, and we have to take the longer-term implications of this in view.

00:32:56Pakistan has to think twice, even more, in terms of provoking India.

00:33:00Okay.

00:33:01Do you agree with that?

00:33:03Do you agree with that, Mr. Rubio, that this approach of a kinetic doctrine, some are likening it already,

00:33:09in their reactions to what Israel does, you know, hits at Gaza whenever there is any terror attack?

00:33:17Of course, what happened in October 2023 was of another level.

00:33:21Do you believe, Mr. Rubin, we can do that effectively, that we can actually have this kind of muscular doctrine

00:33:28that the Prime Minister has enunciated?

00:33:30Is that the way the world should deal with terror, Mr. Rubin?

00:33:33I absolutely believe that's the way the world should be with terror.

00:33:36And then, at the very least, you claim the right to do this, and if you choose not to, that's something for down the road.

00:33:44But, look, terrorism is a cost-benefit analysis.

00:33:48That's why its sponsors embrace it as a tactic.

00:33:51You raise the cost, and it's going to cause some serious doubt.

00:33:55But, in reality, is it going to be enough to end the problem?

00:33:59Here's where I dispense with any moral equivalency.

00:34:03Look, the problem India faces, and for that matter, the world faces, is only going to end when Pakistan fundamentally reforms its—it's the mess that its state has become.

00:34:19It's only going to fundamentally abandon terrorism when civilians gain true control and the military is put back in its place.

00:34:28You know, there's been two recent conflicts, one between Russia and Ukraine, and the Russian army hasn't been held accountable internally in terms of reforms and so forth for its corruption and its miscalculation.

00:34:41Then there was the Azerbaijan-Armenia war of 2020, where the Armenian military lost badly, and the defense minister, for all of his miscalculations and alleged corruption, today is in prison in Armenia.

00:34:57The question now in Islamabad is whether Asim Munir is going to be held accountable.

00:35:01But, ultimately, peace and stability will only come when the Pakistanis hold themselves accountable, rather than try to distract the world and their own public by continually sponsoring terrorism and attacking India.

00:35:16Let me just take that to you, that if tomorrow, God forbid, there is something similar to what happens in Pahalgam, and India decides, as the Modi doctrine says, that we're going to hit you back, will the U.S. fully support us?

00:35:29Because in this particular three-day conflict, as we keep saying, they showed this equivalence, will that change?

00:35:35And what you're saying, Prime Minister Modi now needs to speak to Donald Trump and wake him up to the reality. Am I right?

00:35:42Ultimately, I think the United States will support India, but you're absolutely right.

00:35:46Prime Minister Modi and various diplomats, as well as members of President Trump's inner circle, need to give President Trump an education quickly

00:35:56and make him understand that he's actually making the situation worse by extending a lifeline to Pakistan.

00:36:03Let me give a final word to you, then, Kaval Sibbal.

00:36:06Do you believe that that is one of the challenges for India's diplomats, to go across the world and say that, particularly to Washington,

00:36:14that this equivalence, you've been a former ambassador there, that this equivalence will no longer do?

00:36:18Because if that equivalence is retained, then this entire Modi doctrine simply doesn't, you know,

00:36:25simply won't be able to have that kind of impact it needs to have to get Pakistan to end sponsoring terror.

00:36:30Well, frankly, I'm a bit puzzled and disappointed by the position that President Trump has taken.

00:36:40But then President Trump blows hot and cold.

00:36:43He doesn't focus on the complexities of the issues.

00:36:46He's whimsical. He's unpredictable.

00:36:49And what he's done can potentially do great damage to the trust building between India and the United States,

00:36:56because he's touching the raw nerves of India.

00:36:59And he's actually contradicting the basis, the core of Indian foreign policy when it comes to dealing with the Kashmir issue and with Pakistan.

00:37:08Huge error.

00:37:09We have people around him who understand the issues, and I hope they can influence him and educate him, as was rightly said,

00:37:15so that he doesn't put more and more his foot into his mouth.

00:37:18He's very unfortunate what he's doing, and he's putting us before a very, very difficult challenge at a time

00:37:25when we are committed to enlarging and deepening our relations with the United States.

00:37:30And things look pretty good after the visit of our Prime Minister there.

00:37:33So one is very perplexed as to why he has taken the position he has taken,

00:37:39even to the point where absurdly suggesting that I'll end trade with both countries

00:37:42if they don't agree on a permanent ceasefire.

00:37:46U.S. trade with Pakistan is only $7 billion.

00:37:50With us, it's $200 billion.

00:37:52Is this a responsible politician speaking?

00:37:54Is it a responsible attitude of the President of the United States?

00:37:59I mean, it's very...

00:38:00I'm going to end it here.

00:38:05I think all of you have made very strong points,

00:38:08which I hope someone, both in the White House and here, is listening to.

00:38:12Mr. Rubin, thank you very much.

00:38:14You were excellent, and you've given some very strong comments.

00:38:17We look forward to having you in the future.

00:38:18Sanjay Baru, Raj Chengappa, Khabal Sibbal,

00:38:21for giving us your initial comments.

00:38:23Of course, it'll take time to digest this whole Modi doctrine.

00:38:27My word, not necessarily the Prime Minister's,

00:38:28the tough talk that he gave today.

00:38:31But terror and talks don't go together,

00:38:33neither do blood and water.

00:38:35I think those words will resonate.

00:38:36I appreciate my guests joining me.

00:38:40Let's take a look now at the military aspect of this,

00:38:42because the Indian Armed Forces today once again reiterated

00:38:45that only terrorists and terror infrastructure

00:38:47were targeted in Operation Sindhur,

00:38:49and that India's fight was not against Pakistan's military,

00:38:52but against its terror infrastructure.

00:38:55Remember, because Pakistan supported the terrorists,

00:38:58that's why the military infrastructure was struck.

00:39:00Air Marshal A.K. Bharti confirming that

00:39:02all Indian military bases remained intact, fully operational,

00:39:06and that Indian side incurred only minor losses.

00:39:10The Indian Armed Forces also reiterating

00:39:12that Pakistan drone and rocket attacks

00:39:14failed to pierce India's multi-tired air defense system,

00:39:17also making it clear that Pakistan's nuclear installations

00:39:20were not targeted.

00:39:22And during Operation Sindhur,

00:39:23Chinese PL-15 missiles,

00:39:25Turkish drones were destroyed.

00:39:28The forces categorically denying reports

00:39:31that Indian Air Force struck the Kirana hills

00:39:33in Pakistan, in Punjab.

00:39:34Remember, this is a long area,

00:39:36long speculated to have Islamabad's,

00:39:38or Pakistan's, nuclear arsenal.

00:39:41How is this now, this Modi doctrine,

00:39:43being seen by our armed forces?

00:39:45We heard from diplomats and analysts.

00:39:47Let's turn to armed forces.

00:39:48Lieutenant General Vinod Bhatia,

00:39:50former Director General,

00:39:51Military Operations with us.

00:39:53Air Marshal Sanjeev Kapoor,

00:39:55former Director General,

00:39:56Air Safety at the IAF with us.

00:39:58Sandeep Unithan is still with us.

00:40:00I appreciate all of you joining us.

00:40:02General Bhatia,

00:40:03your sense,

00:40:04is this now,

00:40:06Prime Minister Modi saying,

00:40:07I'm giving the armed forces now

00:40:09far greater liberty to strike inside Pakistan,

00:40:13including into Punjab,

00:40:14if Pakistan resorts to a major terror strike against India?

00:40:19Yes, I think this is very clear now.

00:40:22The political military will,

00:40:24political military capability

00:40:26has been demonstrated,

00:40:28and we have achieved all our aims,

00:40:30which were laid down for Operation Sindhu.

00:40:32And it's been done at a minor cost to us,

00:40:37and Pakistan relies on the cost of consequences

00:40:39of terror as a weapon

00:40:41under the nuclear umbrella,

00:40:44nuclear rhetoric,

00:40:45nuclear blackmail,

00:40:46will no longer be tolerated,

00:40:47and the nuclear factor has now been

00:40:49disconnected with terror

00:40:51and the reply to the terror...

00:40:53General Bhatia,

00:40:55allow me to push that.

00:40:56Has it been disconnected?

00:40:57Because if it was disconnected,

00:40:59then why didn't we take the...

00:41:01If we had got,

00:41:02as is being claimed,

00:41:03Pakistan on its knees

00:41:05by striking their air bases,

00:41:07then why were we also so ready

00:41:08to agree to an agreement

00:41:09on the very same day?

00:41:11If, as you are saying,

00:41:12we are not worried about

00:41:13the nuclear deterrent.

00:41:16Militarily, if you look at it,

00:41:17what have we done?

00:41:18Firstly, we had nine terror camps.

00:41:20Okay, it's a terrorist system.

00:41:22The 3P strategy,

00:41:23as I call it,

00:41:24proactive, punitive, and preemptive.

00:41:26Right?

00:41:27So, it was punitive and preemptive ops

00:41:28which went in on the 6-7 night.

00:41:31And thereafter,

00:41:32when our military installation

00:41:33was targeted,

00:41:34what we did was

00:41:35took out the air defense umbrella.

00:41:38The 11 bases which were struck,

00:41:39Pakistan was devoid of the air defense

00:41:43and they had no choice

00:41:44but to then call up India

00:41:45and say,

00:41:46okay,

00:41:46let us have a cessation of hostility.

00:41:47Let us not cessation of hostility.

00:41:49Let us not ceasefire agreement anymore.

00:41:52Right?

00:41:52There was never a ceasefire agreement

00:41:53in any case.

00:41:54Let us agree to call ceasefire

00:41:55between the two DJOs.

00:41:57So, what I'm trying to say is,

00:41:58we have demonstrated

00:41:59not a political military will,

00:42:01a synchronization

00:42:02which has not been done earlier

00:42:03in as many...

00:42:04This thing in surgical strikes

00:42:05is done.

00:42:06While I quote,

00:42:07it was achieved

00:42:07to an operational level.

00:42:08But this is totally different.

00:42:10This is the...

00:42:11Getting to the next level actually.

00:42:13So, Pakistan paid for it.

00:42:15And I think nuclear...

00:42:16The nuclear factor

00:42:17under which Pakistan

00:42:19for the last three and a half decade

00:42:20or three decades now

00:42:21has carried on with the terror,

00:42:23that is removed now.

00:42:25The problems are very clear.

00:42:26Nuclear rhetoric,

00:42:27nuclear blackmail

00:42:28will not be tolerated.

00:42:29So, that is where

00:42:30we were restrained

00:42:30and now that strategy

00:42:31restraint is not there anymore.

00:42:32Let me take that

00:42:34to A. Marshall Kapoor.

00:42:36A. Marshall Kapoor,

00:42:37do you agree

00:42:37with what you just heard

00:42:38from the former DGMO

00:42:39that India now

00:42:41no longer

00:42:42will be deterred

00:42:43by nuclear blackmail?

00:42:44That's one big message

00:42:45that the Prime Minister

00:42:47has given today

00:42:47and that he believes...

00:42:50General Bhatia believes

00:42:51Operation Sindur

00:42:52has achieved...

00:42:52We can go right

00:42:53into the heart of Punjab,

00:42:55Pakistan-Panjab,

00:42:56into a Bawalpur,

00:42:57into a Muruit K,

00:42:58into a Rawalpindi

00:42:59and strike at will.

00:43:01Yes, we can.

00:43:04And the picture

00:43:05which you are just

00:43:06flashing right away

00:43:07is just indicating

00:43:09that a dome

00:43:10of a particular

00:43:10specified target

00:43:12has been taken out.

00:43:13In my opinion,

00:43:14Rajdeep,

00:43:15what has rattled the world

00:43:16is the way

00:43:18our indigenous things

00:43:19were put into use

00:43:21in this operation.

00:43:22The developed products

00:43:25in-house

00:43:26with our own coding,

00:43:27with our own chips,

00:43:28with our own software,

00:43:30without taking help,

00:43:31of any outside agency

00:43:33and this is what

00:43:34has rattled the world

00:43:35the most.

00:43:36Now, if you see,

00:43:37the West

00:43:37has never criticized

00:43:39Pahlga or the losses

00:43:42in other ways

00:43:43because somewhere

00:43:44it indicates

00:43:45that their own products

00:43:47are not as good.

00:43:48So, the Chinese,

00:43:49the Americans,

00:43:50the French

00:43:50and the other

00:43:51NATO allies,

00:43:52their products,

00:43:53their media...

00:43:54Foreign media,

00:43:56Marshal Kapoor,

00:43:57with due regard,

00:43:57foreign media is claiming

00:43:58that some of these

00:43:59Chinese jets

00:44:00have caused huge damage

00:44:01to us.

00:44:02These are being done

00:44:02by very responsible

00:44:03foreign media.

00:44:04So, I mean,

00:44:05are we telling

00:44:05the full story there?

00:44:07Is there equivalence

00:44:08in air power

00:44:08or is it one-sided?

00:44:10No, it is not one-sided.

00:44:12If you recall,

00:44:13the 8th and the 9th night,

00:44:15we took out

00:44:15all the air defense system

00:44:17and radars.

00:44:18And where did this product

00:44:19come from?

00:44:20Why were we able

00:44:21to go smoothly inside

00:44:23and attack

00:44:24on the 10th,

00:44:25early morning?

00:44:27The 10th of May

00:44:28would be a defining day

00:44:29in the air power history

00:44:30and in the years to come,

00:44:32it will be taught

00:44:32in the history books

00:44:33that in precisely 90 minutes,

00:44:3611 frontline air bases

00:44:38were taken out.

00:44:39It has never happened

00:44:40in the history of Elisha.

00:44:42And not only one,

00:44:43they were precise targets

00:44:44with a CEP of one meter.

00:44:47And this was done

00:44:48by indigenously developed weapons.

00:44:50And this is the message

00:44:51which the world should get.

00:44:53And when the Prime Minister

00:44:54was speaking now,

00:44:55he was mentioning

00:44:57the same thing.

00:44:58He was mentioning

00:44:58the same thing.

00:44:59And when he spoke

00:45:00in Bihar the other day

00:45:01in English,

00:45:02it was for the world.

00:45:03And today when he spoke now,

00:45:05most of the message

00:45:05was for the world.

00:45:07So he wants to tell

00:45:08that the path to peace

00:45:10goes through hostilities.

00:45:12And that is what he meant

00:45:13that we have to rise in power

00:45:15and we have to be,

00:45:17you know,

00:45:17self-sufficient

00:45:18to be a world leader

00:45:19what he then is Ajit.

00:45:21Okay.

00:45:21Let me get in Sandeep Unithan.

00:45:24Yes, Sandeep has tracked

00:45:25defense for you.

00:45:26Sandeep,

00:45:27what did you see

00:45:28so different

00:45:28from a defense perspective

00:45:30in what the Prime Minister

00:45:31said today

00:45:31from what you've heard

00:45:32from previous Prime Ministers?

00:45:34Rajiv,

00:45:35what Prime Minister Modi

00:45:36said today was historic.

00:45:38What he's basically said

00:45:39is that he's not going

00:45:40to be deterred

00:45:41by nuclear weapons

00:45:42enabled terrorism.

00:45:43Now, this is a democracy

00:45:45sword that the Pakistan military

00:45:47had hung over

00:45:48the political establishment,

00:45:49the Indian political establishment

00:45:51for decades.

00:45:52Right from the time

00:45:53of General Ziaul Haq,

00:45:55the Pakistani bombs

00:45:57were not meant

00:45:58to deter the Indian military.

00:46:00The Indian military

00:46:01is fully capable

00:46:01of fighting

00:46:02through a nuclear war.

00:46:04The Pakistani bomb

00:46:05was meant to deter

00:46:06the Indian political class.

00:46:08They achieved deterrence

00:46:10when the first F-16

00:46:11flew with a bomb

00:46:12under its belly.

00:46:13Somewhere, we believe,

00:46:14in the late 80s

00:46:15to the early 90s,

00:46:16which is when

00:46:17our nuclear weapons program

00:46:19was pulled out

00:46:20of the closet

00:46:20and they started

00:46:21developing those

00:46:22nuclear weapons.

00:46:23But to Pakistan's ability

00:46:27over the last couple

00:46:29of decades,

00:46:29they have managed

00:46:30to hold our massive

00:46:32conventional edge

00:46:33at bay

00:46:34using nuclear weapons.

00:46:35And the last time

00:46:36this happened

00:46:36was in Aup Parakram

00:46:382001-2002

00:46:40with that massive deployment

00:46:41happened six months

00:46:42and after which

00:46:44a very, very significant

00:46:45speech was made

00:46:46by Lieutenant General

00:46:47Khalid Kidwai,

00:46:48who was the head

00:46:49of the Pakistan's

00:46:50Strategic Plans Division,

00:46:51where he enunciated

00:46:52the four red lines

00:46:53based on which

00:46:55Pakistan would use

00:46:57nuclear weapons

00:46:58if those four thresholds

00:46:59were crossed.

00:47:00Basically,

00:47:00if you capture territory,

00:47:02destroy their military

00:47:03infrastructure,

00:47:04economically strangulate them,

00:47:05or foment internal disturbance.

00:47:08So the point

00:47:10they were trying to make

00:47:11is that you try

00:47:11and do any of these,

00:47:13we are going to use

00:47:14the bomb on you.

00:47:15And the most important thing

00:47:16Rajiv to understand

00:47:17is that the Pakistani

00:47:18nuclear weapons program

00:47:19began in the 70s

00:47:20under Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto.

00:47:22It was meant to protect

00:47:23Pakistan from dismemberment,

00:47:25further dismemberment

00:47:26after the 1971 war.

00:47:28But somewhere down

00:47:29in the 80s

00:47:30and in the 90s

00:47:31when they launched

00:47:32a wave of terror attacks

00:47:33against India,

00:47:34there was no conventional

00:47:35military response.

00:47:36The Pakistani military

00:47:37believed it had achieved

00:47:40deterrence

00:47:40using its nuclear weapons

00:47:41and that is when

00:47:43from an instrument

00:47:44of state survival

00:47:45it became an instrument

00:47:47of enabling terrorism.

00:47:49That is when

00:47:49this malicious strategy

00:47:52of nuclear weapons

00:47:53enabled terrorism

00:47:53began.

00:47:55Three decades,

00:47:56successive Indian prime ministers

00:47:57from Prime Minister

00:47:58Vajpayee to Manmohan Singh

00:47:59had no answer to this.

00:48:01They would always stop

00:48:02short of ordering

00:48:03military strikes.

00:48:04But here you have

00:48:05today an Indian prime minister,

00:48:07the first Indian prime minister

00:48:08who has authorised

00:48:09the use of the Indian air force.

00:48:11At the very outset

00:48:13he has ordered

00:48:13airstrikes on Pakistan

00:48:15unprecedented.

00:48:16You heard the air marshal

00:48:17say that

00:48:1790 minutes,

00:48:1911 airfields.

00:48:20The Indian air force

00:48:21has never undertaken

00:48:22operations of such

00:48:23a high tempo

00:48:24and magnitude

00:48:25since 1947.

00:48:26And the prime minister

00:48:27then ending it

00:48:28with this speech

00:48:29where he mentioned

00:48:30that terror talks

00:48:32will not go

00:48:33hand in hand

00:48:33and we are not

00:48:34going to be deterred

00:48:35by nuclear blackmail.

00:48:37This is one of the most

00:48:38historic speeches

00:48:39ever delivered

00:48:40by an Indian prime minister

00:48:41since 1947.

00:48:42Rajdeep.

00:48:43Okay.

00:48:44Sandeep Unithan

00:48:44giving us his sense.

00:48:46General Bhatia

00:48:47and Air Marshal Kapoor

00:48:49will of course

00:48:49come to you

00:48:50in the days ahead

00:48:51for a wider discussion

00:48:52on this.

00:48:53I wanted today

00:48:54initial comments.

00:48:55I think we are

00:48:55digesting what

00:48:56prime minister

00:48:57has said.

00:48:58General Bhatia

00:48:59just one quick answer.

00:49:01Do you believe

00:49:02this will deter terror?

00:49:03Will this be a deterrent

00:49:05to terror?

00:49:05That's the worry.

00:49:06Will cross-border

00:49:07terrorism stop

00:49:08as a result?

00:49:09Yes.

00:49:10I firmly believe

00:49:11it will

00:49:11because if you look

00:49:12at the terror

00:49:13statistics they've

00:49:14burned down

00:49:14after 2016

00:49:16surgical strikes

00:49:16there were no

00:49:17terror attacks

00:49:19outside of Jammu

00:49:19and Kashmir.

00:49:20Okay.

00:49:21So this has taken

00:49:21note of

00:49:22and now with

00:49:23Ops Sindhu

00:49:24this will lower

00:49:25down the violence

00:49:26levels in Jammu

00:49:27and Kashmir too

00:49:28because they know

00:49:29that Pakistan

00:49:29has to pay the

00:49:30constant consequences

00:49:31of terror attack.

00:49:32I'm not saying

00:49:32that every terror

00:49:33attack will

00:49:34be punished

00:49:35like Ops Sindhu

00:49:36no.

00:49:37But they will

00:49:37keep it below

00:49:38the threshold level

00:49:39of punishment

00:49:40because the

00:49:40constant consequences

00:49:41of Pakistan

00:49:41and not only

00:49:42in the military

00:49:42domain

00:49:43they are also

00:49:43in the diplomatic

00:49:44domain

00:49:44in the informal

00:49:45domain

00:49:45in the economic

00:49:46domain

00:49:47and the water

00:49:47which is very

00:49:48important.

00:49:48So nuclear

00:49:51aspects

00:49:52I think

00:49:52just adding

00:49:53to Sandeep

00:49:54he's covered

00:49:54everything

00:49:55even 1999

00:49:56if we did

00:49:57not cross

00:49:57the LC

00:49:57because of

00:49:58nuclear rhetoric

00:50:00and nuclear

00:50:01planning.

00:50:02So that

00:50:02factor has

00:50:03been moved

00:50:03now.

00:50:04So Pakistan

00:50:04understands

00:50:05that we

00:50:05are not

00:50:06bothered

00:50:06about the

00:50:07nuclear thing

00:50:07anymore

00:50:07that factor

00:50:08will not

00:50:08be there

00:50:09and Pakistan

00:50:09will have

00:50:10to pay

00:50:10the constant

00:50:11consequences

00:50:12of any

00:50:13major terror

00:50:13attack.

00:50:14So that

00:50:14is a very

00:50:15good

00:50:15I'm going

00:50:16to leave

00:50:16it there

00:50:16I'm going

00:50:17to leave

00:50:17it there

00:50:18General

00:50:18Bhatia

00:50:18Air Marshal

00:50:19Kapoor

00:50:20and Sandeep

00:50:21Unithan

00:50:21I think

00:50:21we've got

00:50:22a sense

00:50:22in the

00:50:22last hour

00:50:23of what

00:50:23the Prime

00:50:24Minister's

00:50:24speech

00:50:25means

00:50:25in terms

00:50:26of redefining

00:50:27our nature

00:50:28of engagement

00:50:29now with

00:50:29a hostile

00:50:30neighbour.

00:50:30The breaking

00:50:38story coming

00:50:38at the

00:50:38moment

00:50:39India has

00:50:40rejected

00:50:40US President

00:50:41Donald Trump's

00:50:42claim that

00:50:43he is the

00:50:43one who

00:50:44brought about

00:50:45the ceasefire

00:50:46and that

00:50:47this was

00:50:47linked to

00:50:48trade talks

00:50:49sources saying

00:50:49no talks

00:50:50on trade

00:50:51were held

00:50:52and they

00:50:52were not

00:50:53linked to

00:50:53any ceasefire

00:50:54or any

00:50:54understanding

00:50:55with Pakistan

00:50:56sources saying

00:50:57no threat

00:50:58from Trump

00:50:59was given

00:50:59on stopping

00:51:00trade if

00:51:01the conflict

00:51:02continued.

00:51:03India angry

00:51:03at the way

00:51:04Donald Trump

00:51:05has again

00:51:05hyphenated

00:51:06Pakistan

00:51:07with India

00:51:09suggesting that

00:51:09he is the

00:51:10one who

00:51:11brought pressure

00:51:11on both

00:51:12countries to

00:51:13come to

00:51:14the table.

00:51:16Okay all of

00:51:17this remember

00:51:17happened just

00:51:18before Prime

00:51:19Minister Narendra

00:51:20Modi spoke

00:51:20out for the

00:51:21first time on

00:51:22Operation Sindhu

00:51:23addressing the

00:51:24nation.

00:51:25The Prime

00:51:25Minister made

00:51:26it very clear

00:51:27that India

00:51:27would no longer

00:51:28bow down to

00:51:29nuclear black

00:51:30mail from

00:51:30Pakistan

00:51:31that terror

00:51:32and talks

00:51:32cannot coexist

00:51:33and nor can

00:51:34blood and

00:51:35water.

00:51:36It was clear

00:51:37now that

00:51:38India wants

00:51:39to draw a

00:51:39red line

00:51:40saying they

00:51:41will strike

00:51:41at Pakistan

00:51:42terror

00:51:43infrastructure

00:51:44every time

00:51:45there is a

00:51:46terrorist attack

00:51:46in this country.

00:51:48Listen in to

00:51:48what the

00:51:48Prime Minister

00:51:49said.

00:51:49is it

00:51:50no longer

00:51:52no longer

00:51:53nuclear

00:51:53black

00:51:54mail

00:51:54भारत नहीं साएगा नुकलियर ब्लैक मेल की आण में पनप रहे आतंग की ठिकानों पर भारत सटीक और निर्ना एक प्रहार करेगा

00:52:10तीसरा हम आतंग की सरपरस्त सरकार और आतंग के आकाओं को अलग अलग नहीं देखेंगे

00:52:27मैं आज विश्वस समुदाय को भी कहूंगा हमारी गोशित नीती रही है

00:52:40अगर पाकिस्तान से बात होगी तो टेररिजम पर ही होगी

00:52:49अगर पाकिस्तान से बात होगी तो पाक-Occupied Kashmir P.O.K. उस पर ही होगी

00:53:04Okay, there you've heard from Prime Minister Modi, tough words that he gave.

00:53:07Let's now get in an opposition reaction at the moment. I'm joined by P. Chidambram, Member of Parliament Rajya Sabah joins me.

00:53:15Appreciate your joining us there, Mr. Chidambram. You heard Prime Minister Modi.

00:53:19And I'll play more sound bites of him to get you to react. But your first reactions to the Prime Minister's address to the nation, Mr. Chidambram.

00:53:28Has a new red line been drawn by Mr. Modi when it comes to tackling terror?

00:53:34He has emphasized past positions of India. He has said it in clear terms.

00:53:44So to that extent, there is no disagreement.

00:53:49Terror and talks cannot go together.

00:53:54Blood and water cannot flow together.

00:53:58We will respond to any terror threat or terrorist act.

00:54:05These are well-known positions and I'm happy that the Prime Minister has reiterated them in very strong language.

00:54:15But sir, it is, you know, you're saying if the Prime Minister is following a path that is known to, that has also been enunciated in the past, terror and talks don't go together, for example.

00:54:28But the truth of the matter is, this is a Prime Minister under whose government now armed forces first in Balakot, earlier in the surgical strikes and now in Operation Sindhur have gone deeper and deeper into Pakistan, this time striking at Bawalpur and Mureetke, the terror hubs.

00:54:44The UPA years by and large were marked by what many believe was strategic restraint.

00:54:49To that extent, this is setting a new precedent.

00:54:52Well, you've heard the generals at the time of the Uri response.

00:55:03You heard the generals give the dates and the occasions on which Indian Army entered Pakistani territory and engage their adversaries.

00:55:17I think there are seven or eight dates, which was all published at that time.

00:55:23And you can refer back to the past record.

00:55:28This is after Uri.

00:55:31Balakot was different.

00:55:34Balakot was a singular strike on an alleged terror base.

00:55:43We'll accept the government's version of that.

00:55:47I have no quarrel with that.

00:55:50We accept that version.

00:55:51Balakot was a solitary instance of an Indian aircraft entering Pakistani airspace and attacking a terror base.

00:56:04But otherwise, when full-scale wars erupted between India and Pakistan, India has done whatever was possible at that time.

00:56:201947, 1965, 1971, given the state of equipment and the state of readiness, whatever was possible was done.

00:56:33We are talking about 50 years later.

00:56:3750 years later, neither technology nor capacity remains static.

00:56:45Capacity is increased.

00:56:46Sir, sir, with due regard, I'm contrasting the approach after 2008 Mumbai, that Hina's 26-11 attack, you became home minister soon after.

00:56:55And what we've seen in after Pahlgaam, the fact that then there was strategic restraint, unwillingness to cross the LOC.

00:57:04Now you've got air power being used to strike Pakistani terror bases.

00:57:09I'm glad you remembered that in 2008, I became home minister after the attack, after the conclusion of the attack.

00:57:20And after every terrorist except Kassab had been eliminated in Mumbai, Kassab was captured.

00:57:28So this question has been asked earlier of the prime minister, then prime minister, then defense minister, then foreign affairs minister.

00:57:39They answered, if I remember right, they answered that strategic restraint was the modus operandi that was decided upon.

00:57:53So I can't really add to that.

00:57:56Do you support what Mr. Modi has done in contrast to, do you believe this is a better approach to send a stronger message to Pakistan?

00:58:11This is a deterrent approach.

00:58:14It has greater deterrence.

00:58:17And I hope it will have greater deterrence.

00:58:21Does it carry greater risks as well?

00:58:23Of course, if the deterrent response naturally carries a greater risk, I think both go together.

00:58:37But then that risk has to be taken.

00:58:40If you want to have a deterrent response, you must be willing to take greater risks.

00:58:47Let's just hear, once again, another piece of what Prime Minister Modi said.

00:58:52And I want you to respond to that, Mr. Chidamram.

00:58:55Listen in to what Prime Minister Modi said in that speech again.

00:58:58要 al-pon.

00:59:01Now, when, because, if you can find a comida by the sea, you will not be able to navigate the sea.

00:59:09Or, when, people come to call, you will not be able to leave it.

00:59:11If you want to keep the heat, you will not be able to keep the sea, you will not be able to.

00:59:18Terror or trade, you will not be able to keep the sea.

00:59:24और पानी और खुन भी एक साथ नहीं बैसकता जब पाकिस्तान में आतंग के अड्डों पर भारत की मिसाइलों ने हमला बोला

00:59:45भारत के ड्रोंस ने हमला बोला तो आतंग की संगठोनों की इमारते नहीं बलकि उनका होसला भी थर्रा गया

01:00:02बहावलपूर और मुरित के जैसे आतंग की ठिकाने एक प्रकार से ग्लोबल टेररिजम की युनिवर्सिटीज रही है

01:00:20दुनिया में कहीं पर भी जो बड़े आतंग की हमले हुए हैं चाहे नाइन इलेवन हो चाहे लंदन ट्यूब बॉंबी हो या भारत में दसकों से जो बड़े बड़े आतंग की हमले हुए हैं

01:00:44उन सब के तार कहीं न कहीं आतंग के इहनी ठिकानों से जुड़ते रहें

01:00:55You heard the Prime Minister there again Mr. Chidamram. The big question is

01:01:00strategic restraint of the UPA years could not deter Pakistan-based terror. Will this new

01:01:06kinetic approach of striking Pakistan in the heart of that country in your view

01:01:12act as a more effective deterrent? I hope so. How can I predict the future? I hope it will be a

01:01:21more effective deterrent. And do you believe that the opposition will continue to fully support the

01:01:29government on the issue or is will the opposition now raise questions particularly given the kind

01:01:34of comments that Donald Trump has made which suggests that he wants to play some kind of a

01:01:39greater role in the region? Donald Trump's role is a mystery and the government has not clarified

01:01:48President Trump's role. So those are questions which will be raised separately. That has nothing

01:01:55to do with the opposition on the Congress Party supporting the government's deterrent action.

01:02:03Let's not mix up the two. Now, Prime Minister mentioned nuclear blackmail. Now, the raises questions,

01:02:12was there a nuclear blackmail when Vice President J.D. Vance hinted at alarming intelligence and he spoke to the

01:02:23Prime Minister of India and said, I have alarming intelligence. That's what the media reported.

01:02:30Was he referring to nuclear threat? So those are questions which will be legitimately raised. But

01:02:39those are legitimate questions which has to be answered sooner than later. But that has nothing to do

01:02:47with the opposition supporting the government's firm action, which will have hopefully effective

01:02:55and considerable deterrent effect on Pakistan.

01:03:00Mr. Pichid Amram, for explaining where you stand. I appreciate you joining us here on the show

01:03:07tonight. Thank you so much. Thank you.

01:03:09Mr. Pichid Amram, former Home Minister of the country, suggesting that the opposition will support this

01:03:15deterrent strategy, the kinetic strategy that the Modi government has adopted towards Pakistan and

01:03:22Pakistan-based terror. Now, while the doctrine talks of tough action against Pakistan, the escalating

01:03:31conflict that results, as we saw with Operation Sindur means that innocent civilians get caught in the crossfire.

01:03:37This time, the border town of Pooch was the worst affected by Pakistan's unprovoked cross-border shelling.

01:03:45And the people of the town are still picking up the pieces. Among the many heart-wrenching stories

01:03:50of civilian casualties is that of 12-year-old twins, Zain Ali and Urwa Fatima. Today's ground report

01:03:59comes from our correspondents, Ashutosh Mishra and Kamaljeet Sandhu from Pooch.

01:04:05Collateral damage. Unintended victims of warfare. Zain Ali and Urwa Fatima. 12-year-old twins whose dreams

01:04:27were silenced by a shell that did not distinguish between the civilian and the combatant.

01:04:38Early morning on May 7th, their lives ended. Crushed under a wall brought down by Pakistani

01:04:44artillery firing that targeted this residential colony of Pooch along the line of control.

01:04:5012-year-old Zain Ali and Fatima, two children, were just walking down on the street. The impact on

01:04:58this wall and the shells were all around this. And magnitude of this took all these two kids in the

01:05:04grip. And that led to their casualty. Both the children died in the Pakistani shelling here in Pooch.

01:05:10Their father, Ramiz Khan, is undergoing treatment at a hospital in Jammu.

01:05:40Urusa Khan, their mother, is shattered. Zain and Urwa had celebrated their birthdays last month.

01:05:50Their relatives broke down as they shared memories.

01:05:55With the salaries.

01:05:56There are salaries.

01:06:00I expect to pay for the parents to pay when they are paid.

01:06:04The family had shifted to this locality only two months ago

01:06:34to cut the kids' commuting time to the school.

01:06:38The school where Zain and Urwa studied,

01:06:42within walking distance from home, was also hit by the shelling.

01:06:49Pakistani army started targeting the civilians in the bordering areas.

01:06:53The Pakistani artillery fired shells on Temple, Masjid, Gurudwara

01:06:59and even the schools, Zain and Fatimah and many such children

01:07:03came into the impact of the explosion fired by the Pakistani army

01:07:08when they used artillery.

01:07:12At the Jamia, Al-Uloom, a madrasah in Poonch,

01:07:17a teacher, Kari Iqbal, died in Pakistani shelling.

01:07:22Two children were also injured.

01:07:24Poonch, the worst hit by Pakistani shelling, is still counting its losses.

01:07:51A return to normal life will take time, the healing even more.

01:07:58With Ashitosh Mishra and Kamaljeet Sandhu, Bureau Report, India Today.

01:08:04Please keep in your thoughts and prayers tonight

01:08:11the people of Poonch and other border villages.

01:08:14They are the ones who really suffer

01:08:16every time there's an escalating conflict

01:08:18between India and Pakistan.

01:08:21John

01:08:26and flashback

01:08:32today

01:08:32and

01:08:32we'll

01:08:33let you

01:08:34find returned with the

01:08:34children from Michigan

01:08:36here

01:08:37and

01:08:38our

01:08:39program

01:08:39we

01:08:40can

01:08:40and

01:08:41thank you

01:08:42that

01:08:42and

01:08:43we

01:08:43can

01:08:44we

01:08:44see

01:08:45mind

01:08:46when

01:08:46we

01:08:47we

01:08:47what

01:08:48we

01:08:48time

01:08:48we

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