- 5/12/2025
Prime Minister Narendra Modi addressed the nation following Operation Sindoor against Pakistan-based terror camps, declaring that India will no longer tolerate Pakistan-sponsored terrorism and any terror attack will be considered an act of war.
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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome. You're with the news today. This is your prime time destination.
00:05News, newsmakers, talking points, another big news day.
00:08Prime Minister Narendra Modi's big message to Pakistan is addressed to the nation.
00:13The Modi doctrine, terror and talks cannot coexist, nor can blood and water.
00:20India will be undeterred by nuclear blackmail.
00:23You hit us, we'll hit you back and treat it as an act of war.
00:27How will this actually operate on the ground?
00:30What is really the big message of the Modi doctrine?
00:33All that and more on this news today special.
00:36But first, as always, it's time for the big headlines.
00:40Prime Minister Modi hails Operation Sindur, calls it the new normal,
00:46says India will not tolerate Pakistan-based terror,
00:50says Pakistan, any talks with Pakistan will only be on terror
00:56and POK, and talks cannot go with terror, nor blood with water.
01:04Prime Minister calls out Pakistan's nuclear bluff,
01:08says nuclear blackmail threats won't work anymore,
01:11insists that Operation Sindur has only pressed a pause button,
01:15is not over.
01:17First round of military-level talks held by India and Pakistan today,
01:25both agree on immediate measures to reduce,
01:27ensure troop reduction from forward and border areas.
01:36India's indigenous defense systems hit Pakistan's forces,
01:40claim indigenous anti-drone systems took down Pakistan's,
01:44Turkish-made drones made in India.
01:46Weapons also triumphed against Chinese defense systems,
01:49claim the armed forces.
01:54Indian airspace opened for commercial flights.
01:57Pan-India commercial flight movement presumed 32 Indian airports
02:00were shut after India initiated Operation Sindur.
02:03U.S. President Donald Trump throws another googly,
02:10claims he was the one who stopped a nuclear war
02:12by pressurizing India and Pakistan for a ceasefire,
02:16says he is now ready for trade deals with both.
02:21And U.S.-China strike a trade deal amidst tariff war,
02:26both nations decide to drastically roll back tariffs
02:29on each other's goods for an initial 90-day period.
02:35Virat Kohli retires from test cricket.
02:37The legend announces this ahead of the England tour,
02:41calls time on a 14-year-old long outstanding test career.
02:45Prime Minister Narendra Modi has addressed the nation
03:05for the first time since the Pahelgaam terror strike
03:09and Operation Sindur.
03:11The Prime Minister has made it clear,
03:12India won't take nuclear blackmail from Pakistan lying down.
03:17The Prime Minister made it clear,
03:19this was only a pause in the fight against terrorists in Pakistan.
03:23The Prime Minister claimed Pakistan was the one
03:26which went begging for an exit route
03:28and had assured action on terror and pleaded for a ceasefire.
03:32The Prime Minister claims that India has achieved an objective
03:36of demolishing terror infrastructure.
03:39The Prime Minister claimed Operation Sindur
03:41is a pledge for justice and India was united
03:44and would not allow those trying to use terror to divide people.
03:49Strong messages from the Prime Minister
03:52also saying that this fight is not just against terror
03:55but also against the sponsors of terror.
03:58A direct message in a way to the Pakistani army state
04:02that any terror strike will effectively now be seen as an act of war against India.
04:09Take a look at what the Prime Minister said.
04:12The Prime Minister said that this fight is not against terror.
04:13The Prime Minister said that this fight is not against terror.
04:14The Prime Minister said that this fight will be seen as an act of war against Russia,
04:15which is not against terror.
04:17blackmail भारत नहीं साएगा नुक्लियर ब्लैक मेल की आण में पनप रहे आतंग की ठिकानों पर भारत सटीक और निर्ना एक प्रहार करेगा
04:33तीसरा हम आतंग की सरपरस्त सरकार और आतंग के आकाओं को अलग अलग नहीं देखेंगे
04:50मैं आज विश्वस समुदाय को भी कहूंगा हमारी गोशित नीती रही है
05:02अगर पाकिस्तान से बात होगी तो टेररिजम पर ही होगी
05:12अगर पाकिस्तान से बात होगी तो पाक अक्यूपाइड कश्वीर पी ओ के उस पर ही होगी
05:24अकिस्तानी फोज पाकिस्तान की सरकार जिस तरह आतंग को खात पानी दे रहे हैं
05:37वो एक दिन पाकिस्तान को ही समाप्त कर देगा
05:45पाकिस्तान को अगर बचना है तो उसे अपने टेरर इंफ्रास्ट्रक्चर का सफाया करना ही होगा
05:57इसके अलावा शांती का कोई रास्ता नहीं है
06:04भारत की आक्रमक कारवाई के बाद पाकिस्तान बचने के रास्ते खोजने लगा
06:16पाकिस्तान दुनिया भर में तनाव कम करने के लिए गुहार लगा रहा था
06:25और बुरी तरह पिटने के बाद इसी मजबूरी में दस मई की दोपर को
06:35पाकिस्तानी सेना ने हमारे डी जी एमो को संपर्क किया
06:44तब तक हम आतंगवाद के इंफ्रास्रक्चर को बड़े पैमाने पर तबाह कर चुके थे
06:56आतंकियों को मौत के घाट उतार दिया गया था
07:02पाकिस्तान के सीने में बसाए गए आतंके अड्डों को हमने खंडहर बना दिया था
07:15इसलिए जब पाकिस्तान की तरफ से गुहार लगाई गई
07:24पाकिस्तान की तरफ से जब ये कहा गया कि उसकी और से
07:31आगे कोई आतंकी गतिविदी और सैन्य दुस्साहस नहीं दिखाया जाएगा
07:41तो भारत ने भी उस पर विचार किया
07:47भारत का मत एक दम्स पश्ट है
07:54टेरर और टॉप एक साथ नहीं हो सकते
08:02टेरर और ट्रेड एक साथ नहीं चल सकते
08:10और पानी और खुन भी एक साथ नहीं बैसकता
08:19जब पाकिस्तान में आतंक के अड्डों पर भारत की मिसाइलों ने हमला बोला
08:31भारत के ड्रोंस ने हमला बोला
08:36तो आतंक की संगठों की इमारते नहीं
08:42बलकि उनका हौसला भी थर रा गया
08:48बहावलपूर और मुरित के जैसे आतंक की ठिकाने
08:57एक प्रकार से ग्लोबल टेररिजम की युनिवर्सिटी नहीं है
09:06दुनिया में कहीं पर भी जो बड़े आतंक की हमले हुए है
09:15चाहे 9-11 हो चाहे लंदन ट्यूब बॉंबिं हो
09:23या भारत में दसकों से जो बड़े बड़े आतंक की हमले हुए है
09:31उन सब के तार कहीं न कहीं आतंक के इहनी ठिकानों से जुड़ते रहें
09:41आतंक क्यों ने हमारी बहनों का सिंदूर उजाड़ा था
09:49इसलिए भारत ने आतंक के ये हेड़क्वार्टर्स उजाड़ दिये
09:58भारत के इन हमलों में सो से अधीक खुंखार आतंक वादियों को मौत के घाट उतारा गया है
10:15आतंक के बहुत सारे आखा बीते ढ़ाई तीन दसकों से खुले आम पाकिस्तान में घुम रहे थे
10:28जो भारत के खिलाब साजी से करते थे
10:33उन्हें भारत ने एक जट्रके में खत्म कर दिया
10:42दुनिया ने पाकिस्तान का वो घिनोना सच फिर देखा है
10:49जब मारे गए आतंकियों को बिदाई दे ने पाकिस्तानी सेना के बड़े बड़े अपसर उमड़ पड़े हैं
11:00स्टेट स्पोंसर टर्रजम का ये बहुत बड़ा सबूत है
11:08हम भारत और अपने नागरिकों को
11:15किसी भी खत्रे से बचाने के लिए
11:19लगातार निर्णा एक कदम उठाते रहेंगे
11:24Strong words from Prime Minister Modi
11:30but the big question, how will this Modi doctrine now
11:34reign in Pakistan-based terror?
11:37Have we now drawn a new red line with our neighbor, our hostile neighbor?
11:43That's the question that Narendra Modi's tough words will raise.
11:48Joining me now is Raj Chengappa, Editorial Director at India Today.
11:53He joins me, veteran of covering many India-Pakistan stories.
11:57I'm also joined by another veteran, Dr. Sanjay Baru,
12:00veteran journalist and someone who was part of Manmohan Singh's
12:05Prime Minister's office and Geetha Mohan, our Diplomatic Affairs Editor
12:08who I'm going to first.
12:10Geetha, how is this speech being now seen?
12:13The strong words by the Prime Minister,
12:17what kind of reactions are we getting at the moment,
12:20particularly from all the diplomats and others you've been speaking to?
12:25Well, too early for reactions to come in, Rajdeep.
12:28We'll start rolling out reactions in just a while from now.
12:31But yes, it just comes after the big announcement by U.S. President Donald Trump.
12:37Having said that, Prime Minister Narendra Modi for the first time
12:41made the entire policy official,
12:44for the past two days we've been saying on the basis of sources
12:47that the government has shifted its stance and its policy,
12:51saying that an act of terror will now be considered as an act of war.
12:55Prime Minister Narendra Modi has spelled that out in no uncertain words.
12:59So that's very important.
13:01It's not just a shift, Rajdeep, it's also a message to the world
13:04and to those who were saying and thinking
13:06that there was a lot of pressure that was being mounted on India,
13:10that if there's an act of terror, there is going to be a military response.
13:15The world can think what they want to, the world can say what they want to,
13:18but please do not call New Delhi to, say, de-escalate.
13:21If they want de-escalation, it should happen from the perpetrators.
13:25And here he said the AKAs, the ones behind the terror attacks,
13:30which he meant was the Pakistani state and the establishment.
13:33So that's a clear message coming in.
13:35The University of Terror, the University of Terror, as he's called it,
13:39they are the ones who are, and he widened its scope, Raj Chengappa,
13:43not just to include what happened to India, but across the world,
13:46that this is a country which for decades now has been sponsoring terror.
13:51How do you interpret that message?
13:53Do we now have a new strategic doctrine in place
13:55which says enough of diplomatic restraint,
13:58we will now treat every terror attack as an act of war operation,
14:02Sindhuur, is the new normal?
14:04Well, I think let's call it more on the red lines, right?
14:08Strategic doctrines, you could term it in various other ways.
14:12And if you look at that, first is that the quantum of punishment
14:15is a dramatic improvement, I mean, escalation over what happened in Balakot.
14:20You are hitting one camp and mainly foot soldiers.
14:24Here you are now virtually cutting the head of the snake off, right?
14:26You are hitting the headquarters of Lashkar-e-Taiba as well as Jaisi Mohamed.
14:32And the second big message is, so you are going out to the leaders,
14:35you are not, you know, just trying to make a hit at the ground level.
14:40The second, I think, big thing is geography is not a constraint.
14:44There is no place to hide.
14:45We will hit you wherever you are.
14:46And that's the big message that's there.
14:48And the third is a big message for Pakistan,
14:50that we are willing to get into Punjab, which is your heartland,
14:54close to the capital.
14:55We will strike you where it hurts you the most.
14:57We are unafraid of your nuclear blackmail that you thought,
15:00that you sort of thought you would always get away with.
15:04And the other aspect is that, you know,
15:07when it came to toughness in terms of what ahead,
15:11he was very clear that there will be no, you know, terror.
15:15I mean, no talks of this terror still in terms of trade also.
15:19We are going to cut off.
15:21And he also mentioned blood and water will not mix,
15:24which means that the Indus water is going to be an issue as we look ahead.
15:28And very, very interestingly, also mentioned POK.
15:32There was one aspect of it, which I think Pakistan should take note of,
15:36that he talked of the fact that Pakistan themselves
15:40will have to come to terms and cleanse themselves.
15:43So there is an opening in terms of the development side
15:46that Pakistan must now move in a different direction.
15:50And that's very valid because I feel if you have to really get away
15:53from the trap that they're in,
15:55Pakistan must start focusing on developing their virtual basket case that is...
16:00So there's a very, very tough message to Pakistan
16:03in the Prime Minister's message.
16:04Not just limited to non-state actors, as the terrorists were called,
16:09but to the Pakistani army state as well.
16:13That's the distinction.
16:13Until now, Pakistan has tried to make a distinction
16:16between non-state actors, i.e. the terrorist groups,
16:19and the state of Pakistan.
16:21The Prime Minister is not making that distinction anymore.
16:25I want to come to you, Dr. Sanjay Baru.
16:27Are we seeing, therefore, a radical departure
16:30from how previous governments dealt with terror?
16:33Now the Prime Minister is claiming Operation Sindhur is the new normal.
16:37You hit us, we will come right into your heartland
16:40and strike you undeterred by nuclear blackmail.
16:45Well, I mean, Rajdeep, first of all,
16:48we have still not found out who these terrorists were in Palgam
16:52who came and killed 26 Indians.
16:54They are still at large.
16:56We don't know who exactly they are, where did they come?
16:59I think I understand entirely the Prime Minister's approach,
17:04the government's approach, under the circumstances.
17:07I think going forward, it's very important for us to be careful
17:11that we do not destabilize the region
17:15by reacting in this manner to every terror attack.
17:18I mean, we are then giving the initiative to random terrorists.
17:22After all, how many people are involved in Palgam?
17:25Five, six?
17:26Six, when you can get a group of terrorists staging a terror attack
17:30and then put two nations at war.
17:33So I'm not convinced that this is a doctrine that can be sustained.
17:37You can have another terror attack day after tomorrow
17:40and then again we are back at war.
17:43So I think we need a long-term strategy to deal with Pakistan.
17:47This has been the argument.
17:48I mean, this has been the view of Prime Minister Vajpayee,
17:51Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in the past,
17:53that while terrorism is there under so many governments
17:57from Narasimha Rao's time, we have seen terrorism.
18:00But what is a long-term solution?
18:03Threatening Pakistan, I understand, under the circumstances.
18:06Warning Pakistan that will go after you if you do it again
18:09is entirely understandable.
18:11But if we are subject to random attacks by elements that we cannot identify,
18:17after all, we have not yet identified the elements in Palgam,
18:21then are we exposing our country to continuous destabilization?
18:26Is this a wise long-term strategy for India and Pakistan?
18:30That's one question I would like to pose to the government.
18:34Second, I think the fact is that the response of the international community
18:40for the very first time was fundamentally different from the past.
18:44You look at the way in which the world reacted in November 2008
18:48when we had the Mumbai attack or even in the Balakor.
18:53And this time, I mean, could the International Monetary Fund
18:57not have postponed its meeting at least by a week
19:00and said that, look, there are hostilities between these two countries.
19:03Let's meet a week later.
19:05They met in the middle of hostilities.
19:07That was a message to India.
19:09So, and today, Trump's remarks just before the Prime Minister's address
19:14that he got in and separated the two.
19:17I think, you know, these are all questions that the current situation poses
19:21to which we do not have clear answers.
19:24Let me bring in a guest who is joining us from Washington
19:29at the moment.
19:30I'm joined by Michael Rubin, former Pentagon official,
19:35senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.
19:38Appreciate your joining us, Mr. Rubin.
19:40But before that, just to let you know that
19:44U.S. President Donald Trump a short while ago spoke
19:47and he too on India and Pakistan gave us some breaking news.
19:52Trump said he was the one who stopped a nuclear conflict.
19:55That was the breaking news that came in a little while ago.
19:58Trump said, I told both sides to stop fighting.
20:01Trump claims he pressured India and Pakistan for a ceasefire
20:05and will do a lot of trade now with both.
20:08Just listen to what Donald Trump said
20:10and then I'll get a reaction from my guest in Washington.
20:13On Saturday, my administration helped broker a full and immediate ceasefire,
20:21I think a permanent one, between India and Pakistan,
20:24ending a dangerous conflict of two nations with lots of nuclear weapons.
20:31And they were going at it hot and heavy and it was seemingly not going to stop.
20:35And I'm very proud to let you know that the leadership of India and Pakistan
20:44was unwavering, powerful, but unwavering in both cases.
20:49And having these, they really were from the standpoint of having the strength
20:54and the wisdom and fortitude to fully know and to understand the gravity of the situation.
20:59And we helped a lot.
21:04And we helped also with trade.
21:05I said, come on, we're going to do a lot of trade with you guys.
21:09Let's stop it.
21:10Let's stop it.
21:12If you stop it, we're doing trade.
21:13If you don't stop it, we're not going to do any trade.
21:16People have never really used trade the way I used it.
21:19That I can tell you.
21:20And all of a sudden they said, I think we're going to stop.
21:23And they have.
21:26Michael Rubin, how are we to see what Donald Trump said a while ago?
21:30Is America truly playing the role here of an honest dealmaker?
21:34Or is this Donald Trump simply not following any process when he claims credit
21:38for bringing this conflict to at least a pause at the moment?
21:42Well, the thing to understand about Donald Trump is that he also single-handedly won
21:49the Cricket World Cup, he landed on the moon, and he invented the Internet.
21:54The fact of the matter is Donald Trump is prone to exaggeration,
21:57and he's also speaking to the American audience.
22:00He shouldn't be taken literally.
22:02I am absolutely sure, however, that the United States was scrambling behind the scenes
22:07to try to pass messages along and to try to derail any escalation that could lead to
22:14unrestricted warfare.
22:16So I wouldn't, I think it's a little bit untoward, it's impolite, it's navel-gazing
22:22for Donald Trump to try to claim credit for everything.
22:26It does India a disservice and Pakistan a disservice.
22:29The last thing is what I would read into Donald Trump's comments is still a troubling
22:34deference to moral equivalency between India and Pakistan in terms of who was the aggressor
22:43and who was the victim.
22:45That's a great point you made there, Michael.
22:47Is that a worry, though, that Donald Trump, and that's a worry here in New Delhi, that here
22:51is an American president not making a distinction between the perpetrators of terror, and not
22:56just terror against India, but as Prime Minister Modi enunciated against the world.
23:01This is the same country that housed Osama bin Laden.
23:04So does Donald Trump need a lesson, in a sense, in South Asian geopolitics when he tries
23:09to equate India and Pakistan, the perpetrator of terror, with the victim of terror here?
23:14And why is he doing it?
23:15Well, I think, first of all, we saw that Donald Trump needs a lesson in South Asia when he
23:19said that this conflict had been going on for more than a thousand years across the border.
23:24The fact of the matter is Donald Trump doesn't know the details.
23:27He's often speaking from the cuff.
23:29The good news is, however, he has a strong relation with Prime Minister Modi, and he also
23:34has a team which understands the reality of South Asia much more than the president does.
23:41And so then the question is, how do you allow the president of the United States to save face
23:46while getting spun up to speed on the situation?
23:51We have seen, for example, in American reporting, that in the more than 100 days which Donald
23:56Trump has been in office, he has skipped all but 12 of his presidential daily briefs, the
24:02daily CIA briefings about world affairs.
24:05Perhaps he really does need an education right now.
24:09And the point that you make also in a tweet I saw, that here is a president who failed
24:16to stop Pakistan, you know, the nuclear threat which has been held out from time to time whenever
24:25there's been a conflict between India and Pakistan.
24:27Today, Prime Minister Modi making it very clear, we will not be deterred by nuclear blackmail.
24:32Does Donald Trump recognize the dangers that, dare I call it, a rogue army state in Pakistan
24:39holds while it has the nuclear button and therefore needs to send them a tough message?
24:46Put it this way, he will ultimately understand this.
24:50I worry about the damage that could be done before he doesn't.
24:53And you know what?
24:54His legacy, if he's not careful, is not only going to be the exasperation.
25:01Of the situation in Pakistan, but it's also going to be Pakistan transforming Bangladesh
25:07into a twin of state sponsorship of terror.
25:13And so, look, every president since George H.W. Bush had his foreign policy legacy defined
25:21by the crisis which no one saw coming during his campaign.
25:25And Donald Trump is no different.
25:27He wasn't thinking about India or Pakistan when he was campaigning against Kamala Harris.
25:33However, the way he reacts now is really going to be how history judges him.
25:39He's dug himself into a bit of a hole, but it's not too late to dig out and recognize the reality.
25:46But I would also put some of the onus for educating Donald Trump on Prime Minister Modi.
25:54He has a personal relationship.
25:56He needs to use it.
25:57The historical analogy I would make is when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in 1990,
26:05President George H.W. Bush wasn't sure how to respond.
26:09And Margaret Thatcher, with whom he had a personal relationship, said,
26:13don't go wobbly on me now, George.
26:15We need a similar moment between Prime Minister Modi and Donald Trump.
26:20I'll come back to you in a moment, Michael, because you're making very, very strong and very important points.
26:26But Raj Chengappa, this is precisely the problem.
26:29Prime Minister Modi has enunciated the Modi doctrine very clearly,
26:32that there's a red line that we've drawn in a way with Pakistan-based terror.
26:37The world needs to wake up to it.
26:39We've just heard the U.S. president once again hyphenating India and Pakistan,
26:43saying he wants to do trade with both great nations.
26:48Is that, in a sense, part of where India is going to have to navigate this very closely?
26:54Yes, every act of terror is a provocation.
26:57But how far can you go when dealing with an unstable Pakistani army state?
27:03Is that the concern that we still have to have going forward?
27:06Well, you know, the evaluation of the entire Operation Sindur, as well as Pakistan response,
27:14there is a lot of, you know, lack of clarity.
27:17Let's still say the fog of war exists as to what really happened.
27:22And if you look at the comments that both President Trump and his deputy secretary of state,
27:29Marco Rubio, talked about,
27:32you will see that he talks of a meeting that we are supposed to have,
27:37India is supposed to have with Pakistan on neutral grounds and with key issues.
27:41Where is the dissonance coming from?
27:43Because the Indians denied fully.
27:45And the Pakistan, of course, Pakistanis, of course, are quite happy that America is getting involved.
27:51So I'm not very clear where this, I did try to find out how did this all emanate.
27:56Certainly, Marco, his secretary of state and Donald Trump would have played a role in calming things down.
28:02We do know that the secretary of state did go and speak to, did call General Asim Munir.
28:08And what were the circumstances that led it?
28:11What we can see is evidence that, one, India had made some decisive strikes.
28:16Two, that India had achieved its objectives in the first 30 minutes of the war itself,
28:22if you would like to call it, when it struck the camps in Muridke and Babalpur,
28:28and therefore, you know, inflicted pain and kept to it.
28:32So after that was all escalatory steps that Pakistan was taking.
28:36And if you see the final step where India hits the air bases hard,
28:40was that a moment of panic for Asim Munir?
28:42And therefore, he ran to the, as they say, cry for the uncle and go.
28:47That's what Mr. Modi says.
28:48Mr. Modi says Pakistan begged the world to end this conflict.
28:52But let us also be, you know, if you look at it,
28:56India had actually right through said,
28:59we do not want to escalate it beyond the first strike that we did.
29:03And Pakistan, after doing what it had to do, was also looking for an exit ramp.
29:08But the problem was, I think it had escalated so rapidly to a point
29:12that when two nuclear powers clash like this,
29:15mistakes of any kind would be disastrous, not just for India and the world.
29:20So I don't know where the context is coming from,
29:23but certainly, you know, America getting into this picture and Trump,
29:28I mean, you always have to take Donald Trump with a pinch of salt.
29:31I think you've made a very important point, which Sanjay Baru also made.
29:34And I want to press on that,
29:35because today we are discussing this Modi doctrine.
29:38If I may be, he's not used that word.
29:40I'm calling it that when he says Operation Sindhu is the new normal.
29:44The worry, of course, is that, yes,
29:46while we need to send a tough message to Pakistan,
29:49it can also result in misadventure.
29:51You, Dr. Baru, were part of regimes that spoke of strategic restraint.
29:56Now, that did not deter Pakistan.
29:58We had 26-11, we've had attacks on our parliament.
30:04So, Mr. Modi is taking us in a new direction.
30:07Now, surely, if what happened in the past didn't work,
30:11maybe we've got to try the Modi way of teaching Pakistan a lesson.
30:16Yes, I mean, I don't think anybody would disagree with that.
30:19That is why there was national unity on this issue.
30:22Opposition, political parties also supported the government on the action they were taking.
30:27So, I don't think that the debate is about whether the government was right or wrong
30:31in doing what it did.
30:33I think the real issues are going forward.
30:35If this is the approach that after every terror attack, we will go and hit,
30:40you are giving the initiative to the terrorists.
30:43And we don't know who these terrorists are.
30:44We have alleged that they are coming from Pakistan.
30:47But we still don't know who these chaps who came into Pahlgahm are.
30:50And tomorrow, you could have another attack in other parts of the country.
30:54After all, they came from across the sea to Mumbai in 2008.
30:58If we lock ourselves into this strategy that you hit me, I will hit you back,
31:05then we are getting into a spiral of destabilization of the subcontinent.
31:10And I don't think that's in the long term the right strategy.
31:14In the long term, we need a strategy that stabilizes the subcontinent.
31:17Now, what is that strategy is for people in government to think about?
31:21You know, what is it that you would do?
31:22But the fact, if I may, if I'm, you know, the fact is over the last three decades,
31:25we've not been able to find that strategy with Pakistan in particular.
31:29That's not the point.
31:29Rajdeep, let me finish.
31:31I mean, yes, we have tried one strategy in the past that didn't work.
31:35We are trying another strategy now.
31:37It may or may not work.
31:38But I do think there are serious issues.
31:41There are serious issues about what exactly is the final solution.
31:46Now, you know, what is the final solution?
31:49Let me take that.
31:51One minute.
31:51Is the occupation of POK the final solution?
31:54After all, the Indian parliament has said that.
31:56Amit Shah has said that.
31:57We will go and take back POK.
31:59Is that the final solution?
32:01Is that what the international community will support us on?
32:04Of course not.
32:05And we have had an issue this time that world opinion is not fully convinced about the strategy
32:12we have adopted.
32:13So there are issues.
32:15I'm not criticizing the government for doing what they did.
32:17After all, they have more information than all of us.
32:20But going forward, will this strategy be a stable strategy or will it destabilize the subcontinent?
32:28That's the concern I have.
32:29I take your point.
32:30And I think you raise a valid concern that I want you, Kaval Sibbal, to address.
32:33Michael, I'll come to you in a moment.
32:34Kaval Sibbal, former foreign secretary, joining us.
32:37Sanjay Baru is raising a concern.
32:39Yes, Modi doctrine, tough kinetic action.
32:41But is there an end game?
32:42As we saw even with Operation Sindhu, suddenly, just as we had bombed Pakistan air bases, few
32:48hours later, we had pulled out and agreed to an understanding with Pakistan.
32:53Is there a fear that this doctrine sounds very good?
32:56But how do you get off an escalatory spiral when you are dealing with Pakistan?
33:00How do you see the prime minister's speech, Mr. Sibbal?
33:04Well, I have not heard the speech.
33:07But as I see on the takeaways that you are publishing just now, and I think it's a very
33:14tough message.
33:15And I see it as a message to Trump, because Trump has, to my mind, unnecessarily gone out
33:23of his way to put pressure on India, of equating India and Pakistan politically, militarily,
33:30morally, trying to internationalize the Kashmir issue, offering mediation.
33:34And his line, obviously, will give incentive to Pakistan not to draw the right lessons from
33:43what has happened, as well as other partners of the United States.
33:46It's unfortunate.
33:47But do you support the essence of the Modi doctrine that every act of terror will now effectively
33:54be seen as an act of war?
33:57That we will not just spare the terrorists, we will also strike against their sponsors.
34:03So, we will go into air bases in Pakistan, we will go into Babalpur, Mureetke.
34:07Do you support that?
34:08Or do you believe this can lead to miscalculations?
34:12No, I don't think that this is the meaning of what the prime minister is saying.
34:16I mean, if it is a minor attack, let's say a chap from other parts of India is killed in
34:22Jammu and Kashmir.
34:22As it has happened, some local Kashmiris are killed.
34:26It depends on the nature, the size of the attack.
34:31And then we have to decide whether it is an attack that merits a strong response from
34:36us.
34:37True, it is a difficult proposition.
34:40Even if there is a small attack, you can't go and start bombing their bases because then
34:44there is a big cost that everyone pays.
34:47But there will now be a great inhibition on the part of Pakistan.
34:51Unless, of course, we think that a Pakistani...
34:53You think this will deter Pakistan?
34:55You think this will deter Pakistan?
34:57You think this will deter Pakistan?
34:59Oh, absolutely.
35:00Absolutely.
35:00They must have also drawn the right lessons from what has happened.
35:04Just as we have drawn some lessons that we should be very careful in not treating every
35:10act of terrorism as an act of war.
35:12And we have to take the longer-term implications of this in view.
35:16Pakistan has to think twice, even more, in terms of to provoke India.
35:20Okay.
35:21Do you agree with that?
35:22Do you agree with that, Mr. Rubio, that this approach of a kinetic doctrine, some are
35:28likening it already in their reactions to what Israel does, you know, hits at Gaza whenever
35:34there is any terror attack.
35:37Of course, what happened in October 2023 was of another level.
35:40Do you believe, Mr. Rubin, we can do that effectively?
35:45That we can actually have this kind of muscular doctrine that the prime minister has enunciated?
35:50Is that the way the world should deal with terror, Mr. Rubin?
35:53I absolutely believe that's the way the world should be with terror.
35:56And then, at the very least, you claim the right to do this.
36:00And if you choose not to, that's something for down the road.
36:04But, look, terrorism is a cost-benefit analysis.
36:07That's why its sponsors embrace it as a tactic.
36:10You raise the cost, and it's going to cause some serious doubt.
36:14But, in reality, is it going to be enough to end the problem?
36:19Here's where I dispense with any moral equivalency.
36:23Look, the problem India faces, and for that matter, the world faces, is only going to end
36:29when Pakistan fundamentally reforms the mess that its state has become.
36:38It's only going to fundamentally abandon terrorism when civilians gain true control
36:45and the military is put back in its place.
36:47You know, there's been two recent conflicts, one between Russia and Ukraine, and the Russian
36:53army hasn't been held accountable internally in terms of reforms and so forth for its corruption
37:00and its miscalculation.
37:01Then there was the Azerbaijan-Armenia war of 2020, where the Armenian military lost badly,
37:09and the defense minister, for all of his miscalculations and alleged corruption, today is in prison in Armenia.
37:16The question now in Islamabad is whether Asim Munir is going to be held accountable.
37:21But, ultimately, peace and stability will only come when the Pakistanis hold themselves accountable
37:27rather than try to distract the world and their own public by continually sponsoring terrorism and attacking India.
37:35Let me just take that to you, that if tomorrow, God forbid, there is something similar to what happens in Pahalgam,
37:42and India decides, as the Modi doctrine says, that we're going to hit you back,
37:46will the U.S. fully support us?
37:49Because in this particular three-day conflict, as we keep saying, they showed this equivalence,
37:54will that change?
37:55And what you're saying, Prime Minister Modi now needs to speak to Donald Trump and wake him up to the reality.
38:00Am I right?
38:02Ultimately, I think the United States will support India,
38:04but you're absolutely right.
38:06Prime Minister Modi and various diplomats, as well as members of President Trump's inner circle,
38:13need to give President Trump an education quickly and make him understand
38:17that he's actually making the situation worse by extending a lifeline to Pakistan.
38:23Let me give a final word to you then, Kaval Sibbal.
38:26Do you believe that that is one of the challenges for India's diplomats,
38:30to go across the world and say that, particularly to Washington,
38:33that this equivalence, you've been a former ambassador there,
38:36that this equivalence will no longer do?
38:38Because if that equivalence is retained,
38:41then this entire Modi doctrine simply doesn't, you know,
38:44simply won't be able to have that kind of impact it needs to have
38:48to get Pakistan to end sponsoring terror.
38:50Well, frankly, I'm a bit puzzled and disappointed by the position that President Trump has taken.
39:00But then President Trump blows hot and cold.
39:03He doesn't focus on the complexities of the issues.
39:06He's whimsical.
39:07He's unpredictable.
39:09And what he's done can potentially do great damage to the trust building between India
39:14and the United States, because he's touching the raw nerves of India.
39:19And he's actually contradicting the basis, the core of Indian foreign policy
39:24when it comes to dealing with Kashmir issue and with Pakistan.
39:27Huge error.
39:28We have people around him who understand the issues.
39:31And I hope they can influence him and educate him, as was rightly said,
39:34so that he doesn't put more and more his foot into his mouth.
39:38He's very unfortunate what he's doing.
39:40And he's putting us before a very, very difficult challenge at a time
39:44when we are committed to enlarging and deepening our relations with the United States.
39:50And things look pretty good after the visit of our prime minister there.
39:53So one is very perplexed as to why he has taken the position he has taken,
39:58even to the point where I'm certainly suggesting that I'll end trade with both countries
40:02if they don't agree on a permanent ceasefire.
40:05U.S. trade with Pakistan is only $7 billion, with us it's $200 billion.
40:11Is this a responsible politician speaking?
40:14Is it a responsible attitude of the President of the United States?
40:19I mean, it's very...
40:20I'm going to end it here.
40:25I think all of you have made very strong points,
40:27which I hope someone both in the White House and here is listening to.
40:31Mr. Rubin, thank you very much.
40:33You were excellent and you've given some very strong comments.
40:36We look forward to having you in the future.
40:38Sanjay Baru, Raj Chengappa, Kaval Sibbal,
40:41for giving us your initial comments.
40:43Of course, it'll take time to digest this whole Modi doctrine.
40:46My word, not necessarily the prime minister's,
40:48the tough talk that he gave today.
40:51But terror and talks don't go together,
40:53neither do blood and water.
40:54I think those words will resonate.
40:56I appreciate my guests joining me.
40:58Let's take a look now at the military aspect of this,
41:02because the Indian Armed Forces today once again reiterated
41:04that only terrorists and terror infrastructure
41:07were targeted in Operation Sindhur,
41:09and that India's fight was not against Pakistan's military,
41:12but against its terror infrastructure.
41:15Remember, because Pakistan supported the terrorists,
41:18that's why the military infrastructure was struck.
41:20Air Marshal AK Bharti confirming that all Indian military bases
41:24remain intact, fully operational,
41:26and that Indian side incurred only minor losses.
41:30The Indian Armed Forces also reiterating
41:32that Pakistan drone and rocket attacks
41:34failed to pierce India's multi-tired air defense system,
41:37also making it clear that Pakistan's nuclear installations
41:40were not targeted.
41:42And during Operation Sindhur,
41:43Chinese PL-15 missiles,
41:45Turkish drones were destroyed.
41:48The forces categorically denying reports
41:50that Indian Air Force struck the Kirana hills
41:52in Pakistan, in Punjab.
41:54Remember, this is a long area,
41:55long speculated to have Islamabad's,
41:58or Pakistan's, nuclear arsenal.
42:01How is this now, this Modi doctrine
42:03being seen by our armed forces?
42:05We heard from diplomats and analysts.
42:07Let's turn to armed forces.
42:08Lieutenant General Vinod Bhatia,
42:10former Director General Military Operations with us.
42:12Air Marshal Sanjeev Kapoor,
42:14former Director General Air Safety at the IAF with us.
42:18Sandeep Unithan is still with us.
42:19I appreciate all of you joining us.
42:21General Bhatia, your sense,
42:24is this now, Prime Minister Modi saying,
42:27I'm giving the armed forces now
42:29far greater liberty to strike inside Pakistan,
42:33including into Punjab,
42:34if Pakistan resorts to a major terror strike against India?
42:39Yes, I think this is very clear now.
42:41The political military will,
42:44political military capability
42:45has been demonstrated,
42:47and we have achieved all our aims,
42:50which were laid down for Operation Sindhu.
42:52And it's been done at a minor cost to us.
42:57And Pakistan relies on the cost of consequences
42:59of terror as a weapon
43:01under the nuclear umbrella,
43:03nuclear rhetoric, nuclear blackmail,
43:06will no longer be tolerated.
43:07And the nuclear factor has now been
43:09disconnected with terror
43:11and the reply to the terror.
43:13General Bhatia, allow me to push that.
43:16Has it been disconnected?
43:17Because if it was disconnected,
43:19then why didn't we take a...
43:21If we had got, as is being claimed,
43:23Pakistan on its knees
43:24by striking their air bases,
43:26then why were we also so ready
43:28to agree to an agreement
43:29on the very same day?
43:31If, as you are saying,
43:32we are not worried about
43:33the nuclear deterrent.
43:35See, militarily, if you look at it,
43:37what have we done?
43:38Firstly, we hit nine terror camps.
43:40Okay, it's a terrorist system.
43:41The three-piece strategy,
43:43as I call it,
43:44proactive, punitive, and preemptive.
43:46Right?
43:47So, it was punitive and preemptive ops
43:48which went in on the 6-7 night.
43:51And thereafter,
43:51when our military installation was targeted,
43:54what we did was
43:54took out the air defense umbrella.
43:57The 11 bases which were struck,
43:59Pakistan was devoid of the air defense
44:02and they had no choice
44:03but to then call up India
44:04and say,
44:05okay,
44:06let us have a civilization of hostilities.
44:07Let us have a civilization of hostilities.
44:09Let us have a civilization of hostilities.
44:09Let us have a ceasefire agreement anymore.
44:12Right?
44:12There was never a ceasefire agreement
44:13in any case.
44:14Let us agree to call ceasefire
44:15between the two DJOs.
44:16So, what I'm trying to say is
44:18we have demonstrated
44:19not a political military will,
44:21a synchronization
44:21which has not been done earlier
44:22in as many...
44:24This thing in surgical strikes
44:25is done.
44:26While I quote,
44:27it was achieved
44:27to an operational level.
44:28But this is totally different.
44:30This is carrying it
44:31to the next level actually.
44:33So, Pakistan paid for it.
44:34And I think
44:35the nuclear factor
44:37under which Pakistan
44:38for the last three and a half decades
44:40or three decades now
44:41has carried on with the terror,
44:43that is removed now.
44:44The problems are very clear.
44:46Nuclear rhetoric,
44:47nuclear blackmail
44:47will not be tolerated.
44:49So, that is where
44:49we were restrained
44:50and now that strategy
44:51is not there anymore.
44:52Let me take that to
44:54A.M.A.S.H.L. Kapoor.
44:56A.M.A.S.H.L. Kapoor,
44:57do you agree
44:57with what you just heard
44:58from the former DGMO
44:59that India now
45:01no longer
45:02will be deterred
45:03by nuclear blackmail?
45:04That's one big message
45:05that the Prime Minister
45:06has given today
45:07and that he believes,
45:09General Bhatia believes
45:11Operation Sindur
45:12has achieved.
45:12We can go right
45:13into the heart of Punjab,
45:15Pakistan-Panjab,
45:16into a Bawalpur,
45:17into a Muruit K,
45:18into a Rawalpindi
45:19and strike at will.
45:21Yes, we can.
45:24And the picture
45:25which you are just
45:26flashing right away
45:27is just indicating
45:28that a dome
45:29of a particular
45:30specified target
45:31has been taken out.
45:33In my opinion,
45:34Rajdeep,
45:34what has rattled
45:35the world
45:36is the way
45:37our indigenous things
45:39were put into use
45:40in this operation.
45:42The developed products
45:45in-house
45:45with our own coding,
45:47with our own chips,
45:48with our own software,
45:50without taking help,
45:51of any outside agency
45:52and this is what
45:54has rattled
45:54the world the most.
45:56Now, if you see,
45:57the West
45:57has never criticized
45:59Pahlga or the losses
46:02in other ways
46:02because somewhere
46:03it indicates
46:04that their own products
46:07are not as good.
46:08So, the Chinese,
46:09the Americans,
46:09the French
46:10and the other
46:11NATO allies,
46:12their products,
46:13their media...
46:15Foreign media,
46:15Marshal Kapoor,
46:16with due regard,
46:17foreign media
46:18is claiming
46:18that some of these
46:19Chinese jets
46:19have caused
46:20huge damage to us.
46:21These are being done
46:22by very responsible
46:23foreign media.
46:24So, I mean,
46:25are we telling
46:25the full story there?
46:26Is there equivalence
46:27in air power
46:28or is it one-sided?
46:30No, it is not one-sided.
46:32If you recall,
46:33the 8th and the 9th night,
46:34we took out
46:35all the air defense
46:36system and radars
46:37and where did
46:39this product come from?
46:40Why were we able
46:41to go smoothly
46:42inside and attack
46:44on the 10th,
46:45early morning?
46:47The 10th of May
46:48would be a defining day
46:49in the air power history
46:50and in the years to come,
46:51it will be taught
46:52in the history books
46:53that in precisely
46:5490 minutes,
46:5611 frontline air bases
46:58were taken out.
46:59It has never happened
47:00in the history of Irish
47:01and not only one,
47:03they were precise targets
47:04with a CEP of one meter
47:06and this was done
47:07by indigenously developed weapons
47:10and this is the message
47:11which the world should get
47:12and when the Prime Minister
47:14was speaking now,
47:15he was mentioning
47:16the same thing.
47:17He was mentioning
47:18the same thing
47:19and when he spoke
47:20in Bihar the other day
47:21in English,
47:22it was for the world
47:22and today when he spoke now,
47:24most of the message
47:25was for the world.
47:27So, he wants to tell
47:28that the path to peace
47:30goes through hostilities
47:31and that is what he meant
47:33that we have to rise
47:34in power
47:35and we have to be
47:36self-sufficient
47:37to be a world leader
47:39what he then is Ajit.
47:40Okay.
47:41Let me get in Sandeep Unithan.
47:44Sandeep has tracked
47:45defence for you.
47:46Sandeep,
47:47what did you see
47:47so different
47:48from a defence perspective
47:49in what the Prime Minister
47:50said today
47:51from what you've heard
47:52from previous Prime Ministers?
47:54Rajiv,
47:55what Prime Minister Modi
47:56said today was historic.
47:57what he's basically said
47:59is that he's not going
48:00to be deterred
48:01by nuclear weapons
48:02enabled terrorism.
48:04Now, this is a
48:04democleys sword
48:05that the Pakistan military
48:06had hung over
48:07the political establishment,
48:09the Indian political establishment
48:10for decades.
48:12Right from the time
48:13of General Ziaul Haq,
48:15the Pakistani bombs
48:17were not meant
48:18to deter
48:18the Indian military.
48:20The Indian military
48:20is fully capable
48:21of fighting
48:22through a nuclear war.
48:23The Pakistani bomb
48:25was meant to deter
48:26the Indian political class.
48:28They achieved deterrence
48:29when the first F-16
48:31flew with a bomb
48:32under its belly.
48:33Somewhere,
48:33we believe,
48:34in the late 80s
48:35to the early 90s,
48:36which is when
48:37our nuclear weapons
48:39programme was pulled
48:40out of the closet
48:40and they started
48:41developing those
48:42nuclear weapons.
48:42But to Pakistan's
48:45ability,
48:48over the last couple
48:48of decades,
48:49they have managed
48:50to hold our massive
48:51conventional edge
48:53at bay
48:53using nuclear weapons.
48:55and the last time
48:55this happened
48:56was in
48:57Parakram 2001-2002
48:59where that massive
49:00deployment happened
49:01six months
49:02and after which
49:03a very, very
49:05significant speech
49:06was made
49:06by Lieutenant General
49:07Khalid Kidwai,
49:08who was the head
49:08of the Pakistan
49:09Strategic Plans Division,
49:11where he enunciated
49:12the four red lines
49:13based on which
49:15Pakistan would use
49:16nuclear weapons
49:17if those four
49:18thresholds were crossed.
49:19Basically,
49:20if you capture territory,
49:22destroy their
49:22military infrastructure,
49:23economically strangulate
49:25them or
49:26foment internal
49:27disturbance.
49:28So,
49:28the point they were
49:30trying to make
49:30is that you try
49:31and do any of these,
49:33we are going to use
49:33the bomb on you.
49:35And the most important
49:36thing, Rajiv,
49:37to understand is that
49:37the Pakistani
49:38nuclear weapons
49:38programme began
49:39in the 70s
49:40under Zulfiqar Ali
49:41Bhutto.
49:42It was meant to
49:42protect Pakistan
49:44from dismemberment,
49:45further dismemberment
49:46after the 1971 war.
49:47But somewhere down
49:49in the 80s
49:50and in the 90s
49:51when they launched
49:51a wave of terror
49:52attacks against India,
49:54there was no
49:54conventional military
49:55response.
49:56The Pakistani military
49:57believed it had
49:59achieved deterrence
50:00using its nuclear
50:01weapons.
50:02And that is when
50:02from an instrument
50:04of state survival,
50:05it became an instrument
50:07of enabling terrorism.
50:09That is when
50:09this malicious strategy
50:11of nuclear weapons
50:12enabled terrorism
50:13began.
50:14Three decades,
50:16successive Indian
50:16Prime Ministers,
50:17from Prime Minister
50:18Vajpayee to
50:18Manmohan Singh
50:19had no answer
50:20to this.
50:21They would always
50:21stop short of
50:22ordering military
50:23strikes.
50:24But here you have
50:25today an Indian
50:26Prime Minister,
50:27the first Indian
50:27Prime Minister
50:28who has authorised
50:29the use of the
50:30Indian Air Force.
50:31At the very outset,
50:32he has ordered
50:33airstrikes on
50:34Pakistan unprecedented.
50:36You heard the
50:36air marshals say
50:37that 90 minutes,
50:3811 airfields.
50:40The Indian Air Force
50:41has never undertaken
50:42operations of such
50:43a high tempo
50:44and magnitude
50:44since 1947.
50:45And the Prime
50:47Minister then
50:47ending it with
50:48this speech
50:49where he mentioned
50:50that, you know,
50:51terror talks
50:52will not go
50:52hand in hand
50:53and we are not
50:54going to be
50:54deterred by
50:55nuclear blackmail.
50:56This is one of
50:57the most historic
50:58speeches ever
50:59delivered by an
51:00Indian Prime
51:01Minister since
51:011947.
51:02Rajdeep.
51:03Okay.
51:03Sandeep Unithan
51:04giving us his
51:05sense.
51:06General Bhatia
51:07and Air
51:08Marshall Kapoor
51:09will of course
51:09come to you in
51:10the days ahead
51:10for a wider
51:12discussion on this.
51:13I wanted today
51:13initial comments.
51:15I think we are
51:15digesting what
51:16Prime Minister
51:17has said.
51:18General Bhatia,
51:19just one quick
51:20answer.
51:21Do you believe
51:22this will deter
51:22terror?
51:23Will this be a
51:24deterrent to
51:24terror?
51:25That's the worry.
51:26Will cross-border
51:27terrorism stop as
51:28a result?
51:29Yes, I firmly
51:30believe it will
51:31because if you look
51:32at the terror
51:32statistics they
51:33brought down,
51:34after 2016
51:35surgical strikes,
51:37there were no
51:37terror attacks
51:38outside of Javo
51:39and Kashmir.
51:40Okay.
51:40So this has
51:41taken note of
51:42and now with
51:43Op Sindhu,
51:44this will lower
51:45down the
51:46violence levels
51:46in Javo
51:47and Kashmir
51:47too because
51:48they know
51:48that Pakistan
51:49has to pay
51:49the cost and
51:50consequences
51:50of terror attack.
51:52I am not
51:52saying that
51:52every terror attack
51:53will be punished
51:55like Op Sindhu,
51:56no, but they
51:57will keep it
51:57below the threshold
51:58level of punishment
51:59because the
52:00cost and
52:01concern of Pakistan
52:01and not only
52:02in the military
52:02domain, they
52:03are also in
52:03the diplomatic
52:04domain, in
52:04the informal
52:05domain, in
52:06the economic
52:06domain and
52:06the water
52:07which is very
52:07important.
52:08So nuclear
52:11aspects, just
52:12adding to
52:13Sandeep, he
52:14has covered
52:14everything, even
52:151999, if we
52:16did not cross
52:17the LC because
52:17of the nuclear
52:18rhetoric and
52:20nuclear plan,
52:21that factor has
52:22been moved
52:23now.
52:23So Pakistan
52:24understands that
52:25we are not
52:26bothered about
52:26the nuclear
52:27thing anymore,
52:27that factor
52:28will not be
52:28there and
52:29Pakistan will
52:30have to pay
52:30the cost and
52:31consequences of
52:32any major
52:33terrorist attack.
52:34So that is
52:34a very good
52:35signature.
52:35I'm going
52:37to leave it
52:37there, General
52:38Bhatia, Air
52:39Marshal
52:39Kapoor and
52:40Sandeep
52:40Unithan.
52:41I think we've
52:41got a sense
52:42in the last
52:42hour of what
52:43the Prime
52:44Minister's
52:44speech means
52:45in terms of
52:46redefining our
52:47nature of
52:48engagement now
52:49with a
52:49hostile
52:50neighbour.
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