Facebook Whistleblower Sarah Wynn-Williams: This Is The 'Key Thing That Meta Is Obsessed With'

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At Wednesday's Senate Judiciary Committee, Sen. Amy Klobuchar (D-MN) questioned Facebook whistleblower Sarah Wynn-Williams about Meta's efforts to boost engagement.

Transcript

00:00Thank you very much, and I just again appreciate that you have come forward.

00:07In your book, you wrote that Facebook remade American news media by inserting Facebook at the center of it,

00:15driving down ad rates for newspapers, and distributing their stories using their content to boost time spent on Facebook.

00:22Senator Kennedy and I, as a side, have a bill to push negotiations for the price of content, which I think is really important.

00:32But could you explain how Meta uses news content to boost time spent on Facebook,

00:38and how that allows Facebook to sell more advertising without paying publishers their fair share?

00:44I mean, the key thing that Meta is obsessed with is engagement.

00:48It's keeping people's attention on the services that Meta owns for as long as possible, using whatever tools it can.

00:59So definitely the work of publishers and the work of many dedicated journalists,

01:06and also increasingly they're utilizing AI to keep engagement, often AI based on the work of journalists and authors.

01:16Exactly, and when discussing ways to promote a healthy news market, you quoted Mr. Zuckerberg as saying,

01:24quote, you're compromising with the dying industry rather than dominating it, crushing it.

01:31What do you see with your experience as a consequence of Facebook as allowed to dominate and crush an independent news media?

01:39I think every citizen has seen the consequences of these actions, and I think we're all the poorer for it.

01:51When discussing the role that political ads play in Facebook's business,

01:56you observed that peddling outrage and stretching the truth were just part of the game,

02:02and that outrage is a lucrative business for Facebook.

02:05I care about this a lot, just being in this business of politics and how we know how negativity is awarded online,

02:13not just Facebook, in all of the algorithms in these companies,

02:17and it's actually completely changed the ecosystem that we work in.

02:22Can you elaborate more on how stoking political outrage is profitable for Facebook and ramifications for democracy?

02:32I think we're all living with the consequences of this every day.

02:38As I said before, what this company wants is to dominate as much time and attention as it can of every,

02:49you know, not just in this country, as many billions as they can.

02:53And what they've learned is that outrage is a really good way to do that,

03:00but whatever it takes to have people glued to these services in their power, in their thrall, they'll do it.

03:12A major focus of this hearing, of course, on China,

03:15and I have to say that I found that whole piece of this ironic,

03:20because when Senator Grassley and I were trying to pass our bill about the self-preferencing,

03:28which was also, of course, got the ire of Google and Amazon and these other companies,

03:36I remember you remember that day well when we had the hearing,

03:38Senator Hawley, the markup on this bill.

03:40Well, one of the things that kept being thrown in my face and in those of others that work on this is,

03:46China, you're actually going to destroy us and then China will dominate.

03:52And at one point, another senator actually said that that was what national security officials said.

03:58And anticipating that, I'd actually gone around to the then head of the FBI, the head of the CIA.

04:04I'd called them all or seen them at things.

04:07And while they were getting in the business of endorsing, they said,

04:10no, this idea of doing something about putting consumer protections in

04:14and saying you can't put your own product all the time at the top of the search engine,

04:18that did not hurt our national security vis-a-vis China.

04:22But that is what they claim.

04:24And that's what's so interesting about your experience and your testimony.

04:29And your book actually reveals the extent to which Facebook was willing to put growth

04:34over the U.S. national interest to gain favor with the Chinese Communist Party,

04:39as you pointed out in your testimony today.

04:42In fact, and I know Senator Grassley asked you about this,

04:46you wrote, Meta started briefing the Communist Party as early as 2015.

04:50You talked about this today.

04:52The explicit goal being to help China outcompete American companies.

04:57Could you elaborate on that?

04:59I think to pick up on your point, Senator,

05:03Meta is very quick to say, don't do anything that can hurt us

05:07because you'll let China win.

05:09You know, you'll let China win on AI.

05:12You'll let China win and gain the technological advantage.

05:16And the whole time, the company that's done the most

05:19to help China gain a technological advantage is Meta.

05:24So do you believe Facebook is an honest broker?

05:29This is called a softball.

05:31When it claims competition reforms would harm the U.S. ability to compete with China.

05:37Because I'm telling you, we hear this all the time.

05:40So every time we try to bring up any of these bills.

05:43I hope what we've discussed today, Senator, helps you push back very firmly

05:48and gives you something to create some real accountability.

05:53And then finally, Senator Cruz and I mentioned we have this bill,

05:58Take It Down, that's passed the Senate.

05:59And just your view that if Meta puts its considerable engineering expertise

06:09toward the problem of removing non-consensual intimate images

06:14that are the power to ruin lives or even the selling of fentanyl

06:18or some of these other things, do you think they could do it?

06:23Senator, they've shown to the Chinese Communist Party

06:26that when they're motivated to get something, to remove something,

06:30they can be absolutely expert in it very fast.

06:34All right. Thank you very much.

06:36Thank you, Senator.

06:37Senator Blumenthal.

06:41Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

06:43Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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