'Here's An Internal Facebook Chat': Josh Hawley And Meta Whistleblower To Respond To Shocking Docs

Forbes Breaking News

At Wednesday's Senate Judiciary Committee, Sen. Josh Hawley (R-MO) questioned Facebook whistleblower Sarah Wynn-Williams, former Director of Global Public Policy, about alleged internal documents.

Transcript

00:00Ms. Wynne-Williams, just one other line of questions, if I could, just one other subject.

00:05You actually touched on it with Senator Blackburn.

00:07She was talking to you about the kind of research that Facebook has done and the kind of advertising that they're willing to sell.

00:14And to me, what's so interesting about this is we've seen, frankly, the moral bankruptcy of this company and its leadership when it comes to China.

00:21And we've seen them be willing to lie to Congress, lie to the American public.

00:26We've got the documents in black and white.

00:27We've seen them be willing to give away American user data.

00:31But they were also trying to find out a way to make a buck on Americans, teenagers, children in times of distress right here in the United States.

00:40And I just want to give you an opportunity to comment on this.

00:45Here's an internal Facebook chat where a policy, a Facebook policy director,

00:53asks, is it really accurate that Facebook is doing research into young mothers and their emotional state?

01:02Is it your understanding if there's other research related to young mothers?

01:05Answer, yes.

01:06I looked at one list of research topics and saw one about young mothers and their emotional state.

01:13Coming down, the person says,

01:14I'm wondering about asking my apparently morally bankrupt colleagues if they are aware of any more.

01:22This is about Facebook's program to target ads to people when they are in emotional distress.

01:29Is that right?

01:30Is that what we're seeing here?

01:31That's correct, Senator.

01:32And that included teenage girls, as you were discussing with Senator Blackburn,

01:36those who had maybe recently deleted a selfie, maybe not feeling very good about themselves.

01:41And Facebook said, oh, oh, fantastic opportunity.

01:43We could sell this to advertisers.

01:45It apparently also included young mothers who are in moments of distress.

01:50I mean, who knows what that might include?

01:52Everything from the spilled oatmeal you were trying to put into your toddler's mouth.

01:56I have three children, as I understand.

01:58Or who knows what?

01:59Much, much worse things.

02:00So Facebook is constantly looking for opportunities to sell to advertisers,

02:08to make a buck, even on their own users.

02:11And they're doing it by tracking their users all over the place, tracking their emotional state.

02:14I mean, have I got that accurate?

02:16You've got that accurate.

02:17And beyond that, it's things like things that often do concern teen girls, like body confidence.

02:23You know, that's something else that they use to target, you know, weight loss or other things on, you know,

02:34children, really, 13 to 17-year-olds.

02:36So, to your knowledge, did Facebook, after this email exchange, you know, where another user says,

02:43I think it's a slippery slope here, and then there's the admission there is a level of behavioral targeting.

02:49I mean, just to be clear, I want everybody to see this.

02:52There is a level of behavioral targeting.

02:55I mean, these are Facebook executives.

02:56Again, this is a policy director in this chat acknowledging that this is what Facebook is doing.

03:01Did it stop?

03:02Did Facebook stop doing this?

03:03Not to my knowledge, Senator.

03:04Yeah, in fact, we know they didn't because other whistleblowers came forward to show that at Instagram,

03:10owned by Facebook, there was explicit targeting that goes on.

03:15There was explicit knowledge that the Instagram product was causing, in some cases, severe emotional distress,

03:20particularly to young girls.

03:23Facebook kept right on doing it anyway.

03:24Is that just because it made them a bunch of money?

03:28Senator, you know, as a mother of three children, it's very hard to say this,

03:32but yes, the, you know, one of the discussions I had with one of the business leaders was like,

03:39we just don't need to do this.

03:41Like, as a company, you know, Meta's now a trillion-dollar company.

03:46It is not short of money.

03:48It doesn't need to do this.

03:50And what he explained to me is like, you know, we've got the most valuable segment of the population.

03:59You know, advertisers really want to reach 13 to 17-year-olds, and we have them.

04:05We should be trumpeting it from the rooftops.

04:08It's really just extraordinary.

04:11I think what we've seen here is the evidence that you presented, the evidence that we have in black and white,

04:16is a company and leadership that is willing to do anything, anything, work with America's chief competitor,

04:23work with our chief adversary, sell out other American businesses, sell out American user data,

04:28lie to Congress, lie to the public, anything in order to amass more power and make a buck.

04:34Can I just ask you, you know Mark Zuckerberg very well.

04:36You've spent a lot of time with him.

04:38He's recently tried a reinvention in which he is now a great advocate of free speech

04:45after being an advocate of censorship in China and in this country for years,

04:50after suppressing the Hunter Biden laptop story,

04:53after working hand-in-glove with the Biden administration to suppress content on COVID,

04:58to suppress content on masks, to suppress content on election questions, on vaccines, all of that.

05:04Now that's all wiped away.

05:05Now he's on Joe Rogan and says that he is Mr. Free Speech.

05:09He is Mr. MAGA.

05:11He's a whole new man, and his company, they're a whole new company.

05:15Do you buy this latest reinvention of Mark Zuckerberg?

05:20Senator, there are two things.

05:22If he is such a fan of freedom of speech, why is he trying to silence me?

05:28And the other thing is that this is a man who wears many different costumes.

05:36When I was there, he wanted the president of China to name his first child.

05:43He was learning Mandarin.

05:44He was censoring to his heart's content.

05:47Now his new costume is MMA fighting or whatever, free speech.

05:54We don't know what the next costume is going to be, but it'll be something different.

05:59It's whatever gets him closest to power.

06:01If he were here, is there anything you'd like to say to him?

06:06Senator, I have a lot of questions for Mark Zuckerberg,

06:09but he has proven time and time again that you cannot believe his answers.

06:18He's lied to members of Congress.

06:21He's lied to employees.

06:24And he's lied to Americans.

06:27And that's why I'm asking this committee to hold him accountable.

06:31Well, we're going to do that.

06:34And I just have to say, I don't trust his latest reinvention at all.

06:39He sat where you have sat in front of this committee multiple times in my short time in the Senate.

06:44Every time it's a different answer.

06:47Every time it's a different facade.

06:49But every time, the one consistent through line is,

06:51every time it's something misleading.

06:54Every time it's something other than the truth.

06:56Every time it's about Mark Zuckerberg, not the American people.

07:00It's about Mark Zuckerberg, not what's good for this country,

07:03not what's good for his users, not what is the truth.

07:07And I, for one, am very tired of it.

07:09So I have a message to Mark Zuckerberg as well,

07:11which is that it's time for you to tell the truth.

07:15You should come to this committee and take an oath

07:17and sit where Ms. Wynne Williams is sitting now and answer this evidence.

07:23Stop trying to silence her.

07:25Stop trying to gag her.

07:27Stop trying to hide behind your lawyers.

07:28And millions in dollars in legal fees you're trying to impose on her.

07:33Stop threatening other whistleblowers.

07:35Come to this committee.

07:36Take the oath.

07:37Sit there.

07:37Let us question you.

07:39And give the American people the truth.

07:42We will be waiting for you.

07:44Senator, anything further?

07:45Well said, Mr. Chairman.

07:47I associate myself with your remarks.

07:49And what I would say to him is stop silencing Ms. Wynne Williams.

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