Hans Gutbrod: The approval of Georgian "foreign influence" bill can be seen as a "coup"

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00:00 Let's cross live to Tbilisi on the programme. Hans Gutbrot joins me now. He's a researcher and an

00:06 associate professor based in the Georgian capital. Big moment today then in Parliament in Tbilisi.

00:13 Your thoughts on what we've just seen and what may happen now?

00:16 Well it was a big moment, it was a bad moment for Georgia in many ways because

00:22 this is part, it can be seen as part of a kind of seizure of power. I think it's accurately

00:28 described as a coup. The Georgian dream government has seized control over various sectors of society

00:34 in recent years, the courts, the media, the cultural sector and now it's in a position

00:41 where it can snuff out civil society at will. The Georgian president Salome Zurabishvili has

00:47 been very clear that she does not support the government on this, she's against this plan.

00:53 Can she intervene now, stop it from happening or is this really a done deal?

00:58 Well we will see. A lot of people are out on the streets. It's important to understand it's a kind

01:03 of, the president has veto power but Parliament can actually overwrite that veto after that.

01:09 There is a sense that lots of people are mobilising, students are going on strike,

01:15 some school students have said that they're going to go on strike. So the government may be able to

01:22 push the law through Parliament with lots of riot police around it, whether it can put the

01:26 country back on track, that's a very different question.

01:29 And look, if this does happen, if this bill, divisive as it clearly is, becomes law,

01:35 who do you think will be impacted first in Georgia?

01:38 Well it's important to say that it's not really divisive because it mobilises lots of people

01:45 but actually it's a small clique that pushes this through. It will immediately impact non-profit

01:52 organisations, organisations that have pointed out the terrible corruption that we've seen in

01:57 Georgian government recently. It will impact non-profit media but it will also impact

02:03 institutions like animal, people that help stray cats because they too now will be at the mercy of

02:10 a government that can kind of shut them down at a whim.

02:13 Could it prevent Georgia joining the European Union?

02:17 Well, I mean, Georgia is going in a totally opposite direction. The Georgian government

02:22 is going in a totally opposite direction and it's important to say that the very same party

02:26 a few years ago put into its constitution that it's kind of obligated to try and integrate into

02:32 European structures. So it's even running against its own constitution that it wrote. It's very

02:36 clearly, there's no path into Europe without law on the books.

02:42 So Georgia then really in your view leaning very much towards Moscow now?

02:48 Well, I mean, I think there is a geopolitical aspect to all of this but it's important to

02:55 understand that the main thing is driven forward by the singular ruler of Georgia, a reclusive

03:03 billionaire, someone that one can describe as kind of the loneliest man in Georgia. He's been very

03:07 removed and it's him fighting out his own vendettas. There is a geopolitical dimension

03:13 but it's only one angle of it all.

03:15 But the protesters say the law itself is just a copy of a law in Russia. Is that accurate?

03:21 It's accurate that it's very similar in the kind of region that if that is applied and if it goes

03:28 through, we'll see something very similar to Russia, which is a snuffing out of civil society.

03:33 And that means literally, I mean, you won't be able to run organisations that help people with

03:39 disabilities. Nobody who runs a civil society organisation will be safe because there's going

03:44 to be, there's so many ways of intruding into its activities. So the impact will certainly be

03:50 like that of the Russian law. So it's an appropriate description.

03:52 Hans Guttbrot talking to us there live from Tbilisi this afternoon. Good to talk to you.

03:57 Thanks very much.

03:58 Thank you very much.

03:59 much. Thank you very much.

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