House Oversight Committee Holds A Hearing On The Office Of Management And Budget

4 months ago

The House Oversight Committee held a hearing on Tuesday on the Office of Management and Budget.

Fuel your success with Forbes. Gain unlimited access to premium journalism, including breaking news, groundbreaking in-depth reported stories, daily digests and more. Plus, members get a front-row seat at members-only events with leading thinkers and doers, access to premium video that can help you get ahead, an ad-light experience, early access to select products including NFT drops and more:

https://account.forbes.com/membership/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=growth_non-sub_paid_subscribe_ytdescript

Stay Connected
Forbes on Facebook: http://fb.com/forbes
Forbes Video on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/forbes
Forbes Video on Instagram: http://instagram.com/forbes
More From Forbes: http://forbes.com

Transcript

00:00:00Ability will come to order. I want to welcome everyone here today without objection. The chair may declare a recess at any time

00:00:07Before I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening statement. I don't know

00:00:17Okay, well, yeah, that's okay bill I'll get him

00:00:22I'll begin with my opening statement now and I was going to recognize. Mr. Sessions here in a moment, but

00:00:28This morning we're here to review how the federal government is being run

00:00:33Government performance impacts all Americans in one way or another whether it's securing the border issuing Social Security checks or

00:00:40processing student financial aid forms

00:00:42The federal government is the nation's largest employer with a two million strong civilian workforce headquartered here in Washington, DC

00:00:50Each year those employees administer nearly two trillion dollars in grants and contracts

00:00:55They operate and secure a vast network of federal information systems and perform my other functions to keep the government's

00:01:03Gears turning so who's in charge of this operation as much as any single individual?

00:01:08It's today's witness Jason Miller the deputy director for management at the White House Office of Management and Budget

00:01:15The management side of OMB, which mr. Miller leads devises and oversees the execution of the president's management agenda

00:01:23That's the blueprint for how the president wants the government run

00:01:27how to manage the workforce the contracts the IT and the finances a

00:01:33Wimby works with

00:01:34Individual federal agencies to ensure that vision is executed across the government

00:01:39The government exists to serve the American people. So it should always be managed with their best interest in mind

00:01:46my constituents and those of the other members of this committee won't government services delivered efficiently and

00:01:51Effectively and they don't want to pay for unnecessary overhead. I think we can all surely agree on that

00:01:57We can probably also agree that to run

00:02:00Efficiently any large organization today must be data drift must make data-driven decisions to ensure efficiency and cost-effectiveness

00:02:08and

00:02:09the Biden administration claims to be using database management, but it's not showing its work a

00:02:16Prime example is telework at the onset of the kovat pandemic massive federal employee telework was a

00:02:23justifiable necessity

00:02:25That necessity ended long ago long ago

00:02:30Yet massive telework continues under the Biden ministration who is intent on making it a permanent fixture of federal work life

00:02:38How do we know that this is in the best interest of the public?

00:02:41The only data we've seen on that is a survey of federal employees themselves. They think it's working great

00:02:48I'm sure they do and

00:02:50It came as a surprise to committee members that when the OPM director appeared before us to testify last year

00:02:56She was unable to answer basic questions about how many federal employees were going into their offices

00:03:02How can telework levels be data-driven if you don't even know how many employees are teleworking?

00:03:08Since that OPM hearing we've been requesting telework related information from agencies including what evidence they possess that agency productivity is

00:03:17Maximized by elevated levels of telework. In other words, how are Americans benefiting from federal employees staying at home?

00:03:25The collective responses were limited

00:03:28They gave no assurance whatsoever that these policies are data-driven or otherwise designed with the best interest of the public in mind

00:03:36So what is driving them?

00:03:38federal employee unions

00:03:40Seem to be a major driver

00:03:41the fact is the president himself said two years ago in his State of the Union address that federal workers would return to their

00:03:47offices and

00:03:48The White House Chief of Staff has sent a few emails to agency heads prodding them to increase in-person work

00:03:54But unions have continued to push back

00:03:57half of recent union grievance cases before the Federal Service

00:04:01Impasses panel dealt with telework or similar workplace issues like hoteling or shared workspaces in federal offices

00:04:08The administration often speaks of empowering federal workers in their unions

00:04:13And it has taken tangible steps to increase the strength of these unions

00:04:18Well, they seem to have some muscle and it's being flexed to resist the limited belated attempts

00:04:24The administration is made to get government employees back to work

00:04:28To be clear

00:04:29It's not just federal employee unions the White House caters to in its management agenda

00:04:33Unions operating the private sector also benefiting at the public's expense

00:04:38We see that in the way federal contract dollars are being managed

00:04:42For instance the White House issued an executive order requiring federal contracting agencies to mandate

00:04:47Project labor agreements or PLAs on federal construction projects worth 35 million dollars or more

00:04:54PLAs essentially require that union workers perform all labor on a project

00:04:59this discriminates against the non-union majority of the construction workforce and

00:05:04It drives up project cost to taxpayers by 12 to 20 percent

00:05:08By one estimate this PLA policy will impact at least 180 federal construction projects valued at 16 billion dollars

00:05:17In December OMB issued a memo concerning the PLA executive order and our witness today. Mr

00:05:22Miller was among the White House officials who met last month with major union representatives at a roundtable on PLAs

00:05:29I'm glad mr

00:05:30Miller is taking the time to meet with us today to have this important discussion where we can work together

00:05:35To ensure that our government is being well managed

00:05:39With that I now yield to the ranking member for his opening statement

00:05:44Thank You. Mr. Chairman. Did you want to go to mr. Sessions first yet? Thank you before before I yield to ranking member

00:05:51Raskin I want to

00:05:53Take a moment to offer my condolences to our colleague chairman Sessions on the loss of his district director and more importantly his longtime

00:06:01friend Kevin Burnett

00:06:03I learned of Kevin's passing yesterday, and I know it came as a shock to to you

00:06:08Mr. Sessions your staff and and all those who knew Kevin so on behalf of this committee. I want to offer

00:06:14My thoughts and prayers to you and especially Kevin's wife Pat and his daughters Anna Grace and Callie

00:06:21Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. Mr. Burnett and I have been friends with each other since

00:06:281976 he served as our district director with honor and distinction with balance and grace and

00:06:36While none of us saw this coming

00:06:38the good Lord

00:06:41stepped into

00:06:42Kevin on Sunday night and we are all in shock and I want to thank you and my colleagues who've all expressed to me

00:06:51The loss not only of a district director, but a dear dear dear great and good fine young man. Thank you. Mr. Chairman

00:06:59Thank you. We'll be thinking of Pete now chair recognizes ranking member. Mr. Raskin for his opening second. Thank you. Mr

00:07:06Chairman and on behalf of the minority. Mr. Sessions. We want to send you our sympathy and our love on the

00:07:14untimely loss of mr. Burnett and

00:07:17I never had the opportunity to meet him, but he sounds like just an extraordinary and wonderful man

00:07:21And we know you've lost not just your district chief, but a close friend. And so our hearts are with you

00:07:28Thank you, mr. Chairman, I thank you deputy director Miller for appearing today

00:07:34OMB sets the policies that guide executive branch agencies on how to spend the money that Congress appropriates

00:07:41It's OMB that turns

00:07:43Administration policy priorities into the direct service of our constituents in our communities

00:07:50So what we're talking about today is the essential mechanics of how the federal government works and how it should work

00:07:55how to ensure that government services reach all

00:07:59eligible recipients how to prevent and

00:08:03detect and reduce improper access to federal programs and how to recruit and

00:08:09Maintain the safety of the two million plus people across America who comprise the largest and most diversely talented and skilled

00:08:18workforce in our country

00:08:19Under the Biden-Harris administration OMB has made excellent strides in

00:08:24modernizing and revitalizing a federal government that was demoralized and gutted after four years of

00:08:31undermining and mismanagement

00:08:34When he was in office

00:08:36Ex-president Trump used OMB not as the transmission belt for getting government services to the people but as the instrument for

00:08:44personal vendettas

00:08:45Against enemies in the public sector workforce as a whole as deputy director Miller affirms in his testimony today

00:08:52OMB is now using data and feedback from stakeholders across America to ensure that its guidance is always rooted in facts in

00:09:00The demands of pragmatic public policy not ideological litmus tests and political loyalty tests

00:09:06OMB's guidance and policies today are

00:09:09Transforming how we interact with government OMB is improving how our communities access federal funding including grants and loans

00:09:17It's ensuring that federal agencies use

00:09:20artificial intelligence

00:09:21equitably and ethically

00:09:23OMB is setting excellent government-wide policies on

00:09:27Recruiting and retaining a qualified federal workforce

00:09:30federal workforce federal workers provide medical care to veterans

00:09:34They respond natural disasters and they ensure the safety of the nation's food supply

00:09:40They show up every day to provide essential services and OMB is transforming the way the federal workforce thinks about

00:09:47Serving the people and improving access to government programs and services. Here's a great example of the kind of innovation

00:09:54That's taking place. The IRS has launched the incredibly successful

00:10:00direct file pilot which allows

00:10:04Taxpayers in several states to easily and quickly file their taxes directly with the IRS at no cost

00:10:11The trick is that the IRS guides you through filling out your form 1040 with all of your basic w-2 information

00:10:18Which is the major or only income that most people have to report

00:10:23Taxpayers with additional questions about direct file

00:10:25access customer service

00:10:28Representatives directly for help. But in other words the government comes to act as your tax preparer

00:10:33People should not have to pay

00:10:35Exorbitant fees to private companies for help filing a straightforward tax return

00:10:41OMB is leading other similar government-wide efforts to reduce the cost and frustration of interacting with government

00:10:48I look forward to the day

00:10:50soon, I hope when we will have direct file for the whole country and people will be able to open up a note from the

00:10:56IRS with

00:10:58their tax forms pre-populated

00:11:01That's information that the government has another critical way that individuals businesses and communities

00:11:06Interact with government is through the federal grants process in fiscal year 2024 thus far for example

00:11:13State and local government entities nonprofits and local businesses in Texas

00:11:17For example received more than twenty nine twenty nine billion dollars in grants just from the Department of Health and Human Services

00:11:27Despite all these investments the reporting requirements and the complicated process

00:11:34Sorry required to secure federal funding have slowed down access and innovation and kept many communities from getting

00:11:41Critical funding but OMB's updated guidance puts grant applicants the people who are elected

00:11:47We are elected to serve in the driver's seat and adapts the capabilities of today's technology to modern-day constituent expectations

00:11:55When OMB announced this new guidance last month the chief of the Division of Fiscal Management for Montgomery County, Maryland

00:12:01Which I represent spoke at the event and said quote plain language

00:12:07accessible information and reduction in burdensome closeout requirements

00:12:11Allows for those of us in local government to have broader and clearer conversations on grant

00:12:17implementation through our organizations as I'm sure

00:12:21the distinguished chairman can confirm residents from Kentucky have also appreciated and

00:12:27Lauded this new guidance along with my constituents in Maryland in the comment process for this new guidance

00:12:33I noticed a consultant from Fort Knox who helps museum zoos parks and other cultural centers

00:12:39Who commented that the new guidance would reduce the burdens placed on nonprofits

00:12:44Allowing them to devote energies more toward doing the work that directly fulfills their missions

00:12:49The National Council of Nonprofits said the OMB's new guidance is welcomed by the nonprofit community

00:12:55Particularly the improvements that reduce administrative burdens and require agencies to use plain language

00:13:00Other nonprofit groups welcomed OMB's updated guidance as well

00:13:04I look forward to hearing more today about how OMB has modernized and updated its grants guidance to simplify the process

00:13:11For all of the communities and constituents that we serve

00:13:14I also look forward to hearing from Deputy Director Miller about how we can work together to make federal programs even more effective

00:13:21By preventing fraud and waste in federal spending earlier this month

00:13:26I was proud to introduce the government spending oversight act of 2024

00:13:30Which would make more permanent the inspector general community's ability to identify and to ferret out fraud in federal programs

00:13:37Also, very importantly. I want to highlight the vital role that a nonpartisan merit-based federal workforce plays for our country

00:13:45the

00:13:47The rejected schedule F proposal would remove experts and replace them with an army of

00:13:54sycophants and that proposal would disproportionately affect OMB's workforce

00:13:58Under the ex-president's plan nearly 70% of our non-political workforce could have been fired

00:14:04Simply because they did their jobs and followed their oath to defend the Constitution

00:14:08Although President Biden has taken steps to prevent a future similar attack on our civil service

00:14:13We cannot forget that an expert and nonpartisan

00:14:17Federal workforce is essential to a functioning Democratic government with that. I look forward to hearing testimony this morning from Deputy Director Miller

00:14:24I yield back. Mr. Chairman

00:14:26Ranking member yields back today

00:14:28We are joined by Jason Miller the deputy director for management at the Office of Management and Budget where he serves as the federal government's

00:14:35Chief operating officer in this role. Mr. Miller coordinates management initiatives touching on all aspects of government operations including but not limited to

00:14:43personnel and telework policies grants management

00:14:47procurement agency IT

00:14:49Modernization and agency use of artificial intelligence prior to his role in the Biden White House. Mr

00:14:54Miller served on the National Economic Council in the Obama administration

00:14:59Pursuant to committee rule 9g the witness will please stand and raise his right hand

00:15:06Do you solemnly swear

00:15:08That the testimony that you are about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God

00:15:14Let the record show the witness answered in the affirmative. Thank you. You may take a seat

00:15:19We certainly

00:15:21Appreciate you being here. Mr. Miller and look forward to your testimony

00:15:24Let me remind the witness that we have read your opening statement and it will appear in full in the hearing record

00:15:30Please limit your oral statement to five minutes as a reminder

00:15:33Please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it is on the members can hear you

00:15:37When you begin to speak the light in front of you will turn green after four minutes

00:15:40Light will turn yellow when the red light comes on your five minutes have expired. We would ask that you please wrap it up

00:15:45We would ask that you please wrap it up. I now recognize deputy director Miller for his opening statement

00:15:53Thank You chairman Comer ranking member Raskin and members of the committee for the opportunity to testify today

00:15:59As a deputy director for management at the Office of Management and Budget

00:16:02I am responsible for overseeing government-wide management matters and ensuring that the federal government has the tools and processes to deliver for the American people

00:16:11Upon taking office the Biden-Harris administration confronted historic crises a raging pandemic and an economy that had lost millions of jobs

00:16:20Requiring strong immediate execution by federal agencies while they strengthened and rebuilt in response

00:16:27This administration has focused our management efforts on strengthening the federal workforce

00:16:31Improving service delivery and customer experience and protecting taxpayer funds

00:16:37First federal government's most important asset in delivering

00:16:41Performance is its people its workforce federal civil servants across the nation have chosen to serve our country

00:16:48But too often public discourse politicizes government personnel to the detriment of government performance

00:16:54Which in turn negatively impacts the American people they serve for effective performance

00:16:59We also need strong and healthy organizations

00:17:02That is why last April OMB issued guidance calling for agencies to substantially increase meaningful in-person work at federal offices

00:17:11particularly at headquarters and equivalents

00:17:13Federal agencies are moving towards a posture where telework eligible teams are working in person at the office at least

00:17:20half of their hours

00:17:22OMB will continue to push agencies to complete implementation

00:17:26Second most Americans experience their government through the services that federal agencies deliver under President Biden

00:17:33The administration has established the importance of simple secure customer experiences. We have made

00:17:40substantial progress but significant work remains

00:17:43OMB's role includes driving an annual improvement process for our largest service providers amongst many actions over the last year

00:17:50the administration has made it easier for Americans to file their taxes reducing wait times on call lines from 28 minutes in

00:17:582022 to just three minutes this year and piloting direct file a new free and simple digital solution for tax filing

00:18:05Issued the highest numbers of passports in a year

00:18:09While bringing the service commitment back down to pre pandemic norms and piloting online passport renewals

00:18:15Reduced paperwork burdens for farmers applying for loans to USDA by more than half and

00:18:22Expanding the VA app so millions of veterans have simpler more accessible tools to obtain health and benefit services

00:18:29Third the Biden-Harris administration has worked to ensure taxpayers get the best bang for their buck on

00:18:35federal procurement our efforts have resulted in more than 40 billion in

00:18:39Savings and cost avoidance and OMB launched the better contracting initiative

00:18:44Which we estimate will result in at least 10 billion more per year in savings and cost avoidance on

00:18:51Program integrity the administration has taken significant action to address the fraud we inherited in pandemic relief programs

00:18:58those actions included

00:19:00reinstalling basic controls

00:19:02Rebuilding the relationship with the oversight community and strengthening systems to prevent fraud these actions

00:19:08Combined with the president's comprehensive anti-fraud proposal would have prevented a substantial amount of the fraud

00:19:16experienced early in the pandemic on

00:19:19federal financial assistance earlier this month

00:19:21OMB announced an overhaul of the uniform grants guidance to streamline requirements on federal funds

00:19:28Cutting red tape so recipients focus on outcomes not overhead while strengthening the ability to

00:19:35Safeguard these funds on made in America OMB created a first ever made in America office

00:19:42increased the share of federal procurement to domestic workers and businesses and

00:19:47implemented build America by America requirements which expand domestic content requirements to all federal infrastructure as

00:19:54part of the president's strategy to strengthen domestic manufacturing and supply chains

00:19:58This approach is working with more than 600 billion in private investment to American manufacturing

00:20:05And enabling all this work requires modern and secure technology systems

00:20:10OMB has worked to accelerate the retirement and migration of legacy IT systems

00:20:14strengthen technical talent in federal agencies raise standards for cybersecurity through OMB zero trust strategy and

00:20:21prepare agencies to harness the opportunities and mitigate the risks of

00:20:26Artificial intelligence we have delivered real results for the American people, but there's much more work to do

00:20:32I look forward to continuing to work with Congress across these management priorities

00:20:42Thank you

00:20:43Now we'll begin the questioning phase of the hearing. I recognize mr.

00:20:49Grofman from Wisconsin for five minutes. Thank you a while back

00:20:52I had a staffer leave me really a sharp guy

00:20:55And I asked him for comments on what we could do to improve the office and like a lot of offices

00:21:01We went through a period of telework, you know during the Colbert

00:21:05and

00:21:06He was critical of it

00:21:09He felt he was a great worker as good as he could be but with here at home

00:21:11Some of the kids are around some as the dogs around

00:21:14It's hard to really be honest and say you're getting as much done as you would be without it in your opinion is widespread

00:21:22Federal telework is effective efficient and good for the taxpayers in person work

00:21:27Congressman thank you. And as you noted it was a important tool

00:21:32During the pandemic to navigate through that for some of the federal workforce

00:21:36It's important to put in context the federal workforce about half of federal workers

00:21:40Have to be at a worksite to perform their job responsibilities, right? The

00:21:46our approach in early 2023 was to release guidance to agencies to substantially increase the amount of

00:21:53In-person work the purpose of that approach was to strengthen teams and organizations

00:21:58Make sure that we had strong culture make sure that we had innovative teams

00:22:01Make sure that we're able to bring people on board for office workers the place where there's consistency across different agencies

00:22:09We've been clear that our expectation as agencies are achieving at least 50% while giving them

00:22:16Flexibility for how to deliver based upon their diverse mission space. That's consistent with what we're doing

00:22:22Mission space that's consistent with where the private sector is and we're going to continue to adjust as needed. We should compete for talent

00:22:30We should be able to measure performance

00:22:33Okay, so you're you're saying a good target is half the people going to work every day

00:22:38Our expectation is for office workers right quarters and equivalents that agencies are achieving at least

00:22:4750% to the extent they want to adjust to levels above that we give them that flexibility

00:22:52We set that target because it's consistent with where the private sector is

00:22:56We think given where the market is, that's the right answer

00:22:58I'll ask you again

00:22:59Do you feel federal telework is effective efficient and good for the taxpayer as in-person work in your own opinion?

00:23:06I think that agencies have the ability to deliver on effective and efficient

00:23:10You don't answer the question

00:23:13The White House Chief of Staff Jeff Zients sent an email the cabinet leadership

00:23:19in August

00:23:212023 calling for agency heads to aggressively increase in-person work

00:23:26Stating that doing so is a priority for President Biden

00:23:29His email said that doing so would allow the executive branch to deliver better results for the American people by improving

00:23:36teamwork and productivity

00:23:38Does mr. Zients email email imply the teamwork and productivity within the federal work port workforce

00:23:46Had been negatively impacted by widespread telework

00:23:50Thank you

00:23:52the the rationale for our approach to substantially increase in-person work was because we believed an

00:23:59Amount of in-person work is critical for healthy teams. We've seen that in the private sector

00:24:04We want that in our organizations going forward

00:24:07We're trying to also make sure that leadership is focused on it. So it's not a check-the-box exercise

00:24:12we want to make sure at least half of hours for

00:24:15Comparable work is in-person based upon what we see in the market and what we've seen on the evolving research

00:24:20We think that's the right answer that balances the flexibility that

00:24:24Gives strength to our teams that increases employee engagement allows us to compete for talent

00:24:29So that's a permanent state of affairs now for the federal government

00:24:32Half your average guy or I'll say even management where I think it's even more relevant

00:24:39Is your policy for management of teams that they're there half the time and half the time?

00:24:44They don't have to be our policy is for agencies to achieve at least and make sure well again

00:24:50I'll narrow it down to

00:24:52Management positions. I mean in my opinion

00:24:55It's more important for management to be there than someone else. Okay, so the management is kind of overlooking things

00:25:02Are you satisfied of management only comes in half the time?

00:25:06Our focus is making sure that agencies have policies. They're geared towards performance

00:25:11If being in person more for the management team improves their performance, that's exactly what they should do

00:25:18okay, I

00:25:20Mentioned that you're the last email for mr. Zines was January 19 2024 pretty pretty late in the game

00:25:29Do you feel that your progress towards getting people back to work in person is

00:25:36Slower than desired. I mean it seems to me like the the kovat is

00:25:42ancient history right now

00:25:44And I think that email dated January 2024

00:25:48Kind of recent it does it imply that things are going slower than your expectations were?

00:25:53We expect agencies to completely follow through on their implementation, we'll hold them accountable for that

00:25:59Okay, um, I'll just make one more comment. I do feel that

00:26:05in government sometimes

00:26:09They don't realize the degree to which in the private sector in many areas

00:26:15Everybody was back to work. Okay, and when I go home at night, it's kind of a stereotype, but I got Wisconsin

00:26:20I got all these cheese factories. I drive by depending upon which way I go home. They were all

00:26:26Packed even at one o'clock in the morning, you know, so I just want to emphasize

00:26:31that I think in many private sector jobs

00:26:35they were showing up at work in the teeth of the epidemic and the time for

00:26:43That we should be back to where we want to be. Thank you

00:26:46Chair now recognizes. Mr. Raskin for five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman

00:26:51The government distributes 1.2 trillion dollars a year

00:26:56in grants and loans through thousands of different programs

00:27:01That go out to the states and localities and tribal governments

00:27:06all of us have constituents who benefit from

00:27:10federal grant money going to

00:27:13fire safety

00:27:16Health care

00:27:17domestic violence programs after-school programs and so on traditionally, it's been very difficult to

00:27:25apply to get this money

00:27:28the

00:27:31Application process has been opaque elusive inscrutable incomprehensible poorly written

00:27:39Lots of unnecessary administrative burdens and so on but earlier this month

00:27:44You announced significant updates to the OMB's uniform grants guidance process

00:27:51And we've been getting rave reviews from different parts of the country about this

00:27:55tell us what are the changes that you've made to the

00:27:59uniform grants process to make it more transparent and accessible to

00:28:05The mayor's and the county commissioners and the people who end up applying for applying for a lot of this money

00:28:11Ranking member Raskin. Thank you for the question and we were appreciative of having

00:28:17Montgomery County residents speak at our event. OMB doesn't typically hold events when we announce

00:28:22new government-wide policy we had about 10,000 people join on

00:28:28This event and we had a packed room over 150 people in the room given the broad excitement across every single state

00:28:34The first thing we did was completely overwrite the grants guidance in plain language. Why does that matter?

00:28:41Agencies were interpreting specific components of it in different ways

00:28:44So that meant a recipient who had grants from two different places

00:28:48was getting two sets of requirements from two different agencies on the same words or

00:28:54agencies were layering on compliance requirements that was

00:28:58Discouraging people from ever even applying for federal funds

00:29:02The second thing is we're work we're using this overhaul to also change our approach

00:29:08To notices of funding opportunities. No foes. We're trying to dramatically simplify them

00:29:13We should give out dollars to the organizations that can best deliver on outcomes

00:29:18Not the organizations that can afford experts who can best fill out the paperwork to apply for those grants

00:29:25Is this going to help communities that have been traditionally underserved?

00:29:29Absolutely. Why we expect it will

00:29:33We think the simplification of the process will open the door to more organizations

00:29:38We like to say we want the dollars to focus on outcomes not overhead

00:29:42That will bring in more

00:29:45Organizations who have traditionally thought that government funding was not an available resource for them. We have tried to make clear

00:29:53Requirements from agencies to simplify and by the way, we did this with the oversight community

00:29:58So this was done in a way to also strengthen the safeguards we have in place while broadening in the pool of potential applicants

00:30:11The the schedule F proposal would permit the president to replace career

00:30:20Government workers and experts with political loyalists

00:30:23Can you discuss what the return of schedule F could do to the civil service and how would it it would affect?

00:30:30the services to our people

00:30:34Ranking member Raskin. Thank you. This is an important topic again for well-performing organizations

00:30:39Whether in the private sector the public sector the most important thing is its workforce

00:30:44We have for 140 years had a approach focused on experience and expertise a merit-based system schedule F would have undermined

00:30:53that very system

00:30:55We have we want to make sure that the people within our agencies bring experience and expertise

00:31:02Irrespective of their personal political views or who sits in the White House so that we can deliver

00:31:08We have leaders and positions that are the decision makers. The workforce is accountable to their managers and to the leaders

00:31:15The approach that we have taken

00:31:18The first week the president reversed that through executive order would strengthen the return of schedule F would have a

00:31:26significant chilling effect on our ability to retain and

00:31:30To recruit talent and a broad range of spaces including critical skill areas the federal government badly needs

00:31:37finally

00:31:39I'm looking at some data from the Congressional Budget Office, which shows that

00:31:45Percentage of employees working to who typically work from home

00:31:50Is actually higher in the private sector than in the federal government

00:31:54Although they're comparable to each other or something around it looks like around 20 or 25 percent, but both have been declining since

00:32:02Kovat is that right?

00:32:04I'm not familiar with the specifics again about half of the federal government doesn't even have the opportunity to telework based upon

00:32:13Their job requirements

00:32:15There are some workers who are telework eligible that do not because it is not in the best interest of their teams and their organizations

00:32:23Thank you very much. Yield back Mr. Chairman chair. No recognized. Mr. Palmer from Alabama for five minutes

00:32:29Thank You mr. Chairman

00:32:33Mr. Miller

00:32:35federal news network surveys

00:32:3863 over 6300 federal employees

00:32:42Only 6% were entirely in office

00:32:46There was an article in the last few days

00:32:50That showed that the Department of Agriculture has space for 7400 employees

00:32:54But only 456 are actually coming in to work

00:32:58That's 6% it's consistent with what the federal news network survey found

00:33:06OMB put out a memo encouraging people come back to work

00:33:10Basically

00:33:13Saying that you wanted

00:33:15Purposeful well-planned in-person work President Biden put out a memo telling people to return to the office

00:33:21Why hasn't that been implemented?

00:33:26Thank You congressman, it's important that our agencies have policies

00:33:30No, that's not

00:33:32I'm not gonna let you lobby. I

00:33:35Want you to do your job

00:33:37I want you to answer questions and the question I ask is why haven't those policies been implemented?

00:33:42I don't want I don't want you to try to filibuster this

00:33:47Agencies are currently implementing

00:33:49Where we are today as a federal government

00:33:51Again, 50% of our workforce can is not eligible for telework based upon but they are we measure why are only six

00:34:00Agencies are required to measure

00:34:02Hours part of our guidance told agencies that they have to have monitoring systems in place. Okay. Why are there only?

00:34:10456 employees showing up the department. I would have to direct you to USDA about their specific numbers. Let me ask you something else

00:34:19In 2019 Congress enacted the foundations for evidence based policymaking act

00:34:24Otherwise known as the Open Government Data Act

00:34:28That's five years ago

00:34:30That that was enacted and

00:34:32It was to make government transparent and accessible to public and private sector interest

00:34:38But yet here we are five years later. We still don't have the implementation

00:34:44implementing guidance from OMB

00:34:47For title to the Open Government Data Act what accounts for the delay in releasing the guidance

00:34:54Congressman we take implementation of the evidence act

00:34:56Act seriously, we've made a lot of progress. I have a team that reports to me that focus five years

00:35:04Is that because you don't have enough people in the office or you're just incompetent?

00:35:09Congressman again, you haven't implemented it in five years

00:35:14Congress I bet this committee mr. I bet we could write this in just a matter of days the implementation guidance

00:35:21But five years later you haven't done it why

00:35:24I

00:35:25Congressman again, we have been implementing the evidence act

00:35:30Be happy to follow up with you with concerns with respect to the guidance specifically

00:35:34We've been strengthening evidence building in agencies

00:35:37We've launched learning agendas both for our management agenda and with agencies to bring in research to evaluate program

00:35:44programs in terms of

00:35:47Transparency and can you give me a date? Can you give me a date a specific date?

00:35:52that OMB will

00:35:55Finalize and release the guidance. I'd be happy to take that back and get back to you congressman

00:36:00Okay, will you get back to us in writing via email text message? You're gonna run

00:36:06That back and follow up with you. Yes. All right. I want to ask you

00:36:11Something else about about this. I mean I've sat here now and watch the federal government issue

00:36:19Regulations just a deluge of regulations and guidance, which is basically lawmaking

00:36:26bypassing Congress yet

00:36:28five years later, you still haven't been able to to get the

00:36:33Guidance written for for a bill that we passed in 2019

00:36:39also want to ask you about

00:36:42Did OMB provide a strategic plan outlining the ways OMB would comply with the executive order

00:36:5014019

00:36:53Yeah, are you familiar with that?

00:36:55Not by the number congressman. It's an executive order direction mobilize voters and submit their plans directly to the White House

00:37:04All right, all right is OMB engaging in a voter turnout effort maybe I should put that put it that way

00:37:10I got it. Thank you congressman. I'm gonna have to take that back. I'm not familiar with the specifics

00:37:17That's something I think we need to

00:37:19Do additional work on. Mr. Chairman

00:37:22Appears that we're using federal resources for voter turnout efforts for the president. I yield back very good. Thank you

00:37:29Mr. Palmer chair now recognizes. Mr. Litch from Massachusetts

00:37:33Thank You. Mr. Chairman

00:37:36Mr. Miller, thank you for your willingness to come before this committee and help us with our work

00:37:41So, let's talk telework first

00:37:47We've often

00:37:50Been urged to have government work more like the private sector for a very long time and

00:37:58We've seen in the private sector that the shift to telework working from home

00:38:04Has

00:38:07Transformed much of the business community in the private sector in major cities like New York City, Boston

00:38:14Chicago to the to the degree that

00:38:1725% of the office space now in New York City is

00:38:22vacant because the private sector sees the value in working from home and

00:38:29so

00:38:31They're they're capitalizing on that. They don't need all this expensive space now and and so

00:38:37They're operating more efficiently. This is the private sector the private sector in Boston

00:38:4423% vacancy rates in

00:38:47expensive office space

00:38:49With workers working from home. Is that something that the government might take a lesson from in terms of having workers?

00:38:57Work more efficiently from home in crafting our government-wide guidance. We have followed very closely the research and

00:39:05Actions by the private sector ultimately we need to compete for talent right now

00:39:09We have a major effort underway in trying to implement AI and strengthen our use of AI in the federal government

00:39:16That's going to require competing with the private sector for talent. We have in crafting our approach

00:39:22We want to give flexibility to agencies based upon their diverse mission needs

00:39:26But absolutely we need to compete and right now the research suggests that where we're landing is the right answer

00:39:33But of course, we're going to be dynamic going forward. That's great

00:39:37Let's switch over to project labor agreements. We've had project labor agreements in this country for a long long time the Hoover Dam

00:39:45one of the largest

00:39:46It was the largest construction project in the history as a country of this country at the time the Hoover Dam was a PLA

00:39:54and and the challenge for

00:39:59For the authority

00:40:01Building that project was to get as many workers as possible who were skilled. It was sort of a remote location

00:40:08They had to get as many workers there. They wanted to have no stoppages. No work stoppages

00:40:12They wanted to have high quality construction and they it was a multi-year project

00:40:17this thing went on for seven or eight years and

00:40:19So the the PLA model was was a huge success in that project

00:40:24And then the government started using it other other big and complex

00:40:29Projects as a as a union ironworker and a former union president. I've been on multi. I've been involved in multiple projects

00:40:37That have used PLA's not just the government but but the private sector as well

00:40:43When I know this there's new Intel champ

00:40:48Intel chip plant out in Ohio is is using a PLA to get as many workers as possible

00:40:55And they've had great success there in recruiting workers

00:41:01what are the advantages of

00:41:04Using a PLA for the federal government the federal government is a big buyer of large construction projects

00:41:12And the simplest version is PLA is for public sector projects have been shown to bring down costs over time

00:41:18it

00:41:20guarantees access to

00:41:21skilled talent it

00:41:23Meets the time requirements on projects. You don't have cost overruns at the same rate

00:41:28It's just smart business

00:41:30For us to focus on encouraging agencies to leverage and utilize PLA as I was in Cleveland with Congresswoman Brown

00:41:38announcing

00:41:39this effort on a

00:41:41$48 million construction project

00:41:44overhauling a major federal building in downtown Cleveland using a PLA which was done because

00:41:50We believe it will lower the cost of the project and deliver the project on time and in a long-term project

00:41:57Talking about apprenticeship programs

00:42:00Wouldn't that give a worker working on a you know two or three year project an opportunity to complete an apprenticeship program

00:42:06So not only are they have they been employed for three years, but the end of that end of that three years

00:42:12They're a journey person. They're they're a young man or a young woman

00:42:15Or maybe not not so young but coming out with a with a a skill that can be

00:42:21A skill that can be redeployed and and provide for a great career and a great quality of life. Absolutely. Absolutely

00:42:29It's a win-win. Thank you. Mr. Chairman. I yield back chair now recognizes. Mr. Higgins from Louisiana

00:42:37Thank You. Mr. Chairman

00:42:40Mr. Miller

00:42:42Mr. Miller

00:42:44I'm going to reference the Biden executive order

00:42:48One four zero six three from February 2022

00:42:54Use of project labor agreements for federal construction projects, that's what we're going to discuss

00:43:01earlier, you stated you weren't familiar with a

00:43:05Executive order by number. So I'm just clarifying we're talking about the Biden administration's

00:43:10mandate for federal projects over 35 million to use

00:43:15Labor unions you're familiar. I

00:43:17Am okay good

00:43:21You believe in

00:43:24State sovereignty good sir. You I'm quite sure you're proud American. I am a proud American. Thank you very much

00:43:32We're happy to hear that. Do you believe in state sovereignty? Do you recognize the sovereignty of our states? Yes

00:43:39absolutely

00:43:41So how would you in your position as a high?

00:43:45Officer within the Biden administration

00:43:49Responsible for administering work and labor policies

00:43:55How do you balance an

00:43:57executive order that mandates

00:44:00federal projects moving forward within the

00:44:06Sovereign states

00:44:09Use labor unions when 24 of our states like, Louisiana

00:44:15the right-to-work state as specific laws or executive

00:44:21existing executive orders within that state

00:44:24specifically

00:44:25forbidding a

00:44:27mandate for

00:44:28Projects to use labor unions. How do you balance an executive order? You're a proud American

00:44:35Believe in state sovereignty you've stated that

00:44:39How would you support an executive order that overrides state sovereignty

00:44:44The specifics of the executive order directed the FAR Council. I've read it

00:44:51So the FAR Council issued a rule encouraging

00:44:54PLA's is not a mandate. It is intended to promote competition. It's most certainly a mandate

00:45:01We're not going to get into the into the weeds about that's gonna be argued in court and we're going to win

00:45:06but in the meantime

00:45:08in the meantime

00:45:10The Biden administration has effectively shut down large federal projects that had been long planned permitted authorized and funded

00:45:19within

00:45:2024 of our sovereign states

00:45:23There's a massive

00:45:25transfer of wealth

00:45:27from red states

00:45:29Not just to blue states, but actually to labor unions within the blue states

00:45:36in an election year

00:45:41We're gonna sue

00:45:42Many states are coming together. We're gonna see we're gonna win

00:45:46You know, we're gonna win the Biden administration knows we're gonna win but in the meantime

00:45:52Billions and billions of dollars will be transferred from red states. Not just to blue states

00:45:59but to labor unions and their entire

00:46:03organization machine

00:46:05Within those blue states

00:46:07Do know sir, you should know you know about 80% of the American workforce is not union affiliated

00:46:16What do you have to say to those eight out of ten American workers?

00:46:20That can't work in these jobs in these 24 states or elsewhere

00:46:26What do you say to them?

00:46:28Congressman the rulemaking

00:46:31Encourages competition, it does not mandate that a construction project cannot move forward

00:46:37Oh, you're a talking-point fella. Let's listen. I'm an American. You're an American. I'm an army veteran. Are you a veteran?

00:46:44I'm not sir. Are you one of the civilians that I serve and protect? I appreciate your service

00:46:50So it's just two Americans talking. What do you tell one of the 80% of American workforce?

00:46:57They no longer qualifies to work on billions of dollars worth of federal projects

00:47:03What would you tell that man? I'm not asking you Jamie. I'm asking Miss Camilla

00:47:08I want every single American to have access to skills in a high-quality job

00:47:12That's your answer. You want every American have a high-quality job again, sir. That's a talking point

00:47:19Congressman, how do you respond to the family that cannot work? You know, what's gonna happen?

00:47:23If I was a governor, I would I would I would seize those projects and put them 100%

00:47:31Under the sovereignty of my state. We'd remove the federal government from the formula completely

00:47:37Mr. Chairman, I yield

00:47:39Very good. Gentleman yields back. Chair now recognizes Miss Brown from Ohio

00:47:46Mr. Chairman, I yield

00:47:48Very good. Gentleman yields back. Chair now recognizes Miss Brown from Ohio. Thank you, Mr

00:47:54Chairman as part of its duties the Office of Management and Budget oversees the annual release of the president's budget

00:48:01Which includes funding and direction for the entire federal workforce

00:48:06The federal government is the largest employer in the United States with over

00:48:1110,000 employees alone in my district of Ohio's 11th Congressional District as

00:48:17Result, the administration has a significant amount of leverage to promote changes in the workforce making it more reflective for people of all backgrounds

00:48:26Opportunities like remote or telework help increase diversity in the federal workforce for people who face all types of barriers

00:48:34like access to transportation

00:48:36Taking care of an aging relative or having to pick up their children from school

00:48:42We are living in a post-pandemic

00:48:4421st century and we should make the most of the incredible advantages technology provides us all as

00:48:52You said in your testimony deputy director Miller and I quote it is in the interest of the American

00:48:59People to ensure that federal jobs are attractive so that they can be filled by dedicated individuals

00:49:06with experience and expertise

00:49:09So deputy director, can you speak to how the federal government is competing for younger diverse employees of all backgrounds?

00:49:17With opportunities like telework and other aspects of hybrid work great congressman. It's good to see you

00:49:23And thank you for that question

00:49:26We're competing for talent

00:49:29we increasingly need a set of

00:49:32Highly technical skills as one area that we're competing

00:49:35Also, our federal workforce is older than the workforce overall

00:49:39We've been particularly focused on increasing early career talent in the federal workforce. We've grown that by 13%

00:49:45We still have a long way to go

00:49:47One of the ways that we are doing that is by trying to broaden the access to broader pools

00:49:53Broader talent pipelines across all of the country if we're leaving some of the country on the bench and not giving them access

00:49:59We're missing out on potential skills and expertise that could serve the American people in these roles

00:50:05OPM recently took action

00:50:08to drive to encourage skills based hiring

00:50:12Within federal agencies. That's also a shift that is happening in the private sector

00:50:16So that we're moving away from purely degree attainment as a proof point for accessing jobs

00:50:22Do you have the skills to do the work and the ability and the energy to come in and serve people we want?

00:50:29You know ultimately the president says this our federal government should reflect the people that it serves and frankly

00:50:35I believe that that would strengthen our performance on an ongoing basis

00:50:39Thank you for that on

00:50:41June 25th 2021 president Biden signed the executive order on diversity equity inclusion and

00:50:48accessibility in the federal workforce as part of the executive order the president directed the

00:50:53office of management and budget to develop an issue a government-wide diversity equity inclusion and accessibility

00:51:00strategic plan and

00:51:02consistent with merit system principles identify strategies to advance diversity equity inclusion and accessibility and

00:51:10Eliminate barriers to equity and federal workforce functions. So deputy director Miller

00:51:15Can you speak to the progress on these efforts and how the Biden-Harris administration is working to further diversity in the federal workforce?

00:51:23Yeah, absolutely. Thank you congresswoman

00:51:26Again, making sure that we have access to a broader set of talents within our federal agencies will strengthen federal agencies

00:51:32one of the places that we have also focuses on utilizing internships as

00:51:37A real pathway to bring people in recently OPM finalized pathways regulation. That's the premier

00:51:46Internship program with a major focus on increasing paid internships within the federal government

00:51:52that gives people from all backgrounds the ability to take on these roles and

00:51:57We are encouraging and creating platforms for agencies to hire interns across

00:52:02Agencies so that open roles can be proved can be filled by people who have proven their skills in an internship

00:52:08Thank you as a result of the executive order

00:52:11You issued a memorandum last year to the heads of executive departments and agencies

00:52:16Encouraging them to expand access to a diverse and resilient base of US business suppliers for the federal government

00:52:22I applaud this step to advance our national interest by promoting businesses which have been marginalized and yet provide essential

00:52:30Overlooked resources. So how long has the Office of Management and Budget created a

00:52:36quote diverse and resilient marketplace for American small businesses and finally

00:52:42With my remaining time I would yield you an opportunity to address any other questions. My colleagues

00:52:49Presented were a challenge for you. Thank you on on

00:52:52small businesses and we the

00:52:55President announced this yesterday. We achieved our goal of highest small business procurement on record highest small

00:53:03disadvantaged business

00:53:05Procurement on record that's important because our supply base has been

00:53:08Declining over the last 10 years and we want that diversity in our supply base so that we don't get locked in

00:53:15To the same set of contractors on an ongoing basis and we can make sure that we're high performing

00:53:19We've got work to do but we've made real progress and hit our goals thus far

00:53:24That gentlelady's times expired chair never recognizes the chairman of the government operations subcommittee. Mr. Sessions from Texas

00:53:32Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. Mr. Miller

00:53:34I greeted you and you agreed to me very warmly when you came in and thank you very much

00:53:39I stated to you that I felt like today might be

00:53:44Some opportunity for us to provide you feedback and you us

00:53:48But I would not like the time to go by without saying that you and I agreed that we need to get together on really

00:53:55specifics that some of the

00:53:58Conversation that's around here. For instance, whether we're looking for younger diverse workforce rather than qualified

00:54:07Workforce we're talking about all sorts of things that deal with

00:54:11internships

00:54:13Bringing people in even though they really don't fit and can't do the job

00:54:20Exhibit A of that would be 18 F an organization within the GSA that came in of hiring young people

00:54:28To a job to for them to seek out what kind of

00:54:33opportunities would be in the government and what happened was they created a

00:54:39front part to

00:54:42Login dot

00:54:43Gov that assured people that the person who signed in would be who they were based upon

00:54:51biometrics and other identifiers that they would qualify people the IRS counted on it that

00:54:58Social-security counted on it and all sorts of other people. It was fraud last year. We had a hearing that was

00:55:06members of this committee on the Republican and Democratic side

00:55:10Filleted the government for this kind of

00:55:15Mission that they would bring people in under these

00:55:20instead of being qualified they would bring them in as

00:55:23Internships and finding ways to get diversity and equity and inclusion and this is not howdy-doody time

00:55:30Mr. Miller

00:55:32This is a direct conversation that you're having with members of Congress that happens on a regular basis

00:55:39Whether it's about passports the IRS or other areas of running the government

00:55:45I don't want to pick on your words

00:55:47I told you I did not want to do that and I will not but this is not something where you can say in my

00:55:54opinion that you've met your goals when in fact the time at the

00:56:00Social-security office is well over an hour the IRS well over an hour

00:56:04Hundreds of billions of dollars that this Congress gave to the IRS this

00:56:11Administration to fix problems now at the end of four years

00:56:14We are struggling across the government. And what do we hear back? We hear back. Well, we're meeting our goals

00:56:22Well, if that's the best that can be done, that's why you and I had conversation up front

00:56:27I think you've got to do better

00:56:29I think to simply offer a parody that you do the same things like the private sector

00:56:35I think that's wholly inadequate and I had those conversations with the young ambassador from the Passport Agency

00:56:43Who did a great job on behalf of not just this?

00:56:49administration, but the American people when they turned around a disastrous circumstance that was

00:56:56built upon

00:56:58Diversity equity and inclusion was based based on we'll shut down these areas

00:57:04And just go to a part-time workforce

00:57:07Mr. Miller, I think you've got a big job and I respect that. Mr. Miller. I think that you need to

00:57:14head back to the White House at some point today and say I

00:57:18Don't think our plan was well received up on the hill

00:57:23And the reason why it was not is because the American people talk to us every day

00:57:27and during the last eight or nine hearings that my subcommittee has held it has been a

00:57:34bipartisan

00:57:36Tap dance on the face of every single administration official who chose to come forward

00:57:43So we would like to put you on notice again

00:57:47We think you can do better if they're if they're meeting the goals that you had established

00:57:52You need to reassess that because the goals are not good to the American people

00:57:58Lastly, I spent 16 years in the private sector if we did not achieve what we needed to do

00:58:05We were replaced. We did not ever do that with part-time people. We did it with qualified

00:58:13applicants

00:58:14Qualified applicants who understood what the American people would want need. Lastly, there's a lot of conversation here about

00:58:23Post-pandemic. Well in Texas, we had people die also, and I'm very sorry as

00:58:29COVID happened, but we went back to work

00:58:33We went back to work and that's why we're the hustle-and-bustle state that we are that is growing

00:58:40Exponentially a matter of fact too fast and I would suggest to you that some of these areas

00:58:46Are more interested in trying to deal with internal problems that came from

00:58:53elected people rather than

00:58:56Serving the people who they have. So Mr. Miller, I look forward to you and I getting together

00:59:01I want to thank you for your time today

00:59:04I tried not to make this personal but what I would say is I think this administration going all the way

00:59:11Up to the top needs to re-examine and look at their policies that are causing the outcome. Thank you very much

00:59:18Mr. Chairman, I yield back my time. Chairman yields back chair and I recognize Ms. Lee from Pennsylvania

00:59:25Thank You, Mr. Chair

00:59:28My community like so many others across the country relies on federal money for vital investments

00:59:33Through these federal funded grants we can see federal ideas and support

00:59:38Actual work on the local level to improve our constituents livelihood

00:59:43We know that improvements to infrastructure affordable housing

00:59:46stem

00:59:48innovation clean air and clean water good paying jobs

00:59:51food insecurity and so much more can

00:59:54Be addressed or at least we can begin to address them through federal grants

00:59:59I'm proud of my local research institutions like Carnegie Mellon and the University of Pittsburgh for bringing hundreds of millions of

01:00:06Dollars back to the community to perform groundbreaking research

01:00:12But we can't forget the equally important smaller

01:00:15Organizations that often have difficulty in getting and accessing federal funding some of these smaller organizations have difficulty

01:00:23Using the grant money because they're subjected to unexpected costs and requirements that aren't disclosed in the beginning

01:00:30The financial cost of cutting through some of this red tape can be too big of a burden for so many

01:00:36OMB directs agencies processes for administrating or excuse me administering grant applications and reporting requirements

01:00:42And as I've heard in my community the process was in serious need of an overhaul

01:00:49Thankfully, it seems that the process for receiving and reporting on federal funding is changing

01:00:55Last month OMB announced its new uniform grants guidance. So mr

01:01:00Miller what other changes to the grant making process are in the new guidance and how will they improve the process overall?

01:01:09Congresswoman thank you for the question and you highlighted a number of the reasons why we took on this overhaul rewriting it from the bottom up

01:01:17The the goal very much was if we're giving out dollars to recipients

01:01:22Those dollars should be focused on delivering outcomes not on

01:01:28Low value add or no value add compliance requirements as I noted to ranking member Raskin

01:01:34We had agencies interpreting the same words in the guidance in multiple ways, which creates confusion and it discourages

01:01:41Potential organizations that would be the best at delivering on those dollars for the outcomes that we're trying to deliver from even

01:01:49Applying and we wanted to change that going forward one of our major efforts

01:01:54We're pushing very hard on federal agencies to implement this guidance by the end of this fiscal year. That will be a sprint

01:02:01We are also working with federal agencies to overall how they do their grant announcements

01:02:06Their notice is a funding opportunity to simplify them to make them clearer to all be written in plain language

01:02:13Those are things that should be no-brainers

01:02:16But it's a really important and again we have had

01:02:20Overwhelming

01:02:22Positive feedback we had over 6,000 comments when we put this out and the comments if I could sum them up mostly were

01:02:29Long overdue. Thank you

01:02:31We have work to do to implement guidance doesn't isn't a light switch

01:02:35But I am I'm excited about where this can head and we need to continue to execute. Thank you

01:02:41Another challenge that I'm seeing in my community is the timelines getting in the way

01:02:46So when a project is time-sensitive

01:02:48Even when a grant has been approved sometimes the groups don't receive the funding with enough time to actually implement them

01:02:53So I'm wondering will the new grant process change when the new grant process

01:02:58Changes will they improve how quickly the organization's receive their grant money?

01:03:03we have set up a

01:03:06Council of the key federal financial assistance officials across agencies so that we can improve on those kinds of

01:03:12Processes and that we can make sure that we're doing a better job of gathering feedback from recipients

01:03:18into the process

01:03:19Ultimately our approach is to make sure that we're getting more efficiency out of the dollars that we're spending the dollars that we're giving out

01:03:27To these organizations. I think it has the potential to be a big win, but we need to execute

01:03:32So I would say we also have to stay focused on eliminating the barriers that many of the families communities and businesses encounter when they're trying

01:03:38To access those resources. That means meeting people where they're at wherever that might be

01:03:42So finally potential recipients who don't speak English as a first language

01:03:45For instance, we'll have the opportunity to access the funding that their communities needs

01:03:48How will these new guide how will the new guidance help diverse districts districts?

01:03:53For instance like mine and underserved communities access federal dollars

01:03:57So you noted one of the changes which is removing the requirement that

01:04:04Applications or notices be in English to the extent that that is important in some communities in the United States including for example in Puerto Rico

01:04:13the other is by

01:04:14Simplifying the overall approach and changing the way in which we do things like indirect costs

01:04:20It will broaden the set of community-based organizations in particular. We believe that will seek to access federal funding

01:04:26Thank you. Thank you for your time and I yell back chair. No recognized. Mr. Perry from Pennsylvania. Thank you. Mr. Chairman. Good morning

01:04:35Director Miller. I want to talk to you about

01:04:37executive order

01:04:3914019 and your involvement in the implementation of that

01:04:43Does OMB have a strategic plan to implement that executive order?

01:04:49and if you need me to

01:04:51Characterize what it is. I suspect, you know, but Congressman one of your fellow congressman has asked me

01:04:57The same question and I said I would come back on the specifics. That's not been a focus of mine

01:05:03So there is a plan and and you just have to get it to us or you don't know of a plan or what's the situation?

01:05:10Again, I'm gonna take that back and make sure that I get you a precise answer

01:05:14okay, and

01:05:16Assuming that there is a plan

01:05:17Assuming that there's a plan can Congress have all of that unredacted would you commit to that at this point again congressman?

01:05:24I will happily take that back. Okay, is there any reason to not provide Congress with an unredacted complete plan strategically?

01:05:31Is there some national security?

01:05:34Interest or some other concern where Congress couldn't have the oversight that plan congressman

01:05:39I don't want to provide you with any inaccurate information and I will take that back and we just like to have any

01:05:44Information let me ask you this the United States Attorney General

01:05:48Established a procedure for educating felons on how to register to vote how to vote by mail

01:05:54those type of things

01:05:57And you as you probably know, there's a Federal Bureau Bureau of Prisons and federal

01:06:03Felons are ineligible to vote. Why would why would we have a plan under Executive Order?

01:06:0914019 to

01:06:11Educate these folks ineligible to vote on how to vote and and how to proceed with that. Why would that be?

01:06:18Do you know you're this man?

01:06:19I would have to direct you to the Department of Justice, but you you oversee the you oversee the rollout of these

01:06:26Processes as one of the directors of OMB, right? So you have to be aware of that, right?

01:06:32Congressman on the specifics

01:06:34I am very familiar with the Bureau of Prisons the Bureau of Prisons is recently added to the high-risk list by GAO

01:06:41Focused on management issues associated with the Bureau of Prisons

01:06:45We take all of the issues across the high-risk list very seriously

01:06:48But on the specifics of that action, I would have to direct you to the Department of Justice

01:06:52You have to so you're not you're not gonna do any oversight yourself on it

01:06:56You're not gonna look at what they're doing and inform Congress. You're not gonna do any of that

01:06:59I would have I'm happy to have my team follow up with yours on the specific

01:07:04Concerns and on the specific actions by DOJ. I would have to refer you to okay. How about this one?

01:07:08What actions are you taking at OMB to ensure that people that are here illegally aren't eligible to vote under this executive order?

01:07:18Congressman again, I would I want to make sure that I give you a person, you know

01:07:21Anything about this executive order at all. I'm familiar with the executive order. Okay, so that should be easy

01:07:27What actions are you taking or have you taken in your office to ensure that people residing here illegally are?

01:07:34Ineligible to vote under the provisions rolled out by this administration under this executive order

01:07:40Knowing that they have to have a strategic plan submitted

01:07:44congressman

01:07:45I'm happy to take back your questions and your concerns and make sure I get you a precise answer

01:07:50I'm happy to talk about my purview as

01:07:54Management at OMB and the broad set of management priorities that we have been implementing

01:08:00Is there any reason at this point

01:08:02That you know

01:08:04Because we're here at the hearing. I get it. And maybe this is the first time you've been asked in public

01:08:09But but as you know, I'm well, I hope you know in

01:08:13Pennsylvania 27 Pennsylvania legislators sued regarding this information now

01:08:19They were found to not have standing and of course article 1 says that the state's determined the manner time and place of election

01:08:25So, I don't know who has standing if they don't have standing

01:08:28But but it seems to me that on time and time again in this occasion regarding this EO

01:08:37That the plans remain unavailable to the public unavailable to Congress

01:08:43Why would that be?

01:08:46Congressman again on the specifics here. I'm happy to take your concerns back. I want to make sure I provide can you provide anything at all?

01:08:53Any information whatsoever on this executive order today at this hearing?

01:08:58I am happy to talk about my broad management purview and the specific priorities that I've been focused on and what are they here?

01:09:05What are those regarding this executive order if you want to talk about that since again, it's not been a major focus of my time

01:09:12I'm happy to take back your specific question

01:09:16That's the limit of what you can talk about regarding your involvement. I am happy to take back your question

01:09:22I will make sure that we provide you with specific information. Okay, let me last question. I promise

01:09:27What's the timeline on the provision of these answers? What are we talking about a week six months?

01:09:32Do you know there's an election coming in November?

01:09:35So we'd like to have that in a timely manner so we can evaluate how well you're doing and if you're out of bounds

01:09:41So what are we talking about? I fully understand that I am

01:09:44Required as part of this to respond to your questions for the record as well, and I'm sure timeline sir

01:09:50What's the time for the love of God? Can you give me anything two weeks?

01:09:54Give me something that you feel comfortable with even if I don't like it

01:09:57Consistent with whatever chairman Comer and we agree in terms of the questions for the record. That would be the timeline

01:10:03Well, we'd like them

01:10:05Soon

01:10:08Terminated we're now over tomorrow five seconds

01:10:12I'll yield the balance

01:10:14Chair now recognizes and we look forward to getting the answers soon

01:10:19Chair now recognize mr. Frost from Florida for five minutes

01:10:23Name's chairman nearly three million federal employees and 1.5

01:10:30Okay, I'm sorry I'm now advised about that mr. Connolly from Virginia

01:10:35Thank you so much. Mr. Chairman. Mr. Miller. What's your timeline for making sure Ukraine wins the war?

01:10:43Again congressman, I'm happy to talk about the topics that are in my purview as the director for that's not in your purview

01:10:50Got it. All right

01:10:52Then I won't belabor you with questions that are not relevant to your purview

01:11:00Let me ask about federal pay

01:11:03every year I with my colleagues

01:11:07from a

01:11:09Number of states, especially Maryland, Virginia have introduced the FAIR Act this year

01:11:13We recommend a seven point two percent increase for both military and civilian

01:11:18I have to admit we were distressed

01:11:20That this year looks like we're going backwards instead of forward after some real progress in the bite administration

01:11:26Help us understand why you're only recommending two percent for federal employees when inflation is higher than that and secondly why?

01:11:34You have in fact widened the gap between military and civilian compensation

01:11:39Which is something pay parity has really been a goal. We've we've had for a long time around here

01:11:46Congressman, thank you. Thank you for your broader leadership on our federal workforce

01:11:50It has been important under the Biden administration that we are working to close the long-standing gap our FY 25 budget

01:11:59Had to comply with

01:12:01Fiscal Responsibility Acts and we took that very seriously

01:12:04We also wanted to make sure that our pay policy decisions. We're not having negative impacts on near-term service levels

01:12:12We are currently

01:12:14Several months in to implementing the most most recent pay increase which is why we recommended

01:12:19The 2% pay increase as part of the FY 25 budget

01:12:24Well you

01:12:26okay, I

01:12:28Guess I mean when when we looked at our analytics, there's no way we could we could have gotten to 2%

01:12:36You know, and I hope we have an opportunity to dialogue about that. But I I think that's just a very inadequate

01:12:44number for

01:12:46hard-working federal employees

01:12:50So as you know, we passed the FedRAMP legislation

01:12:55Which is the program we and we codified FedRAMP in law

01:12:59So that it's not just an orphan in the executive branch

01:13:03And that and we worked well with your office as well as others in the executive branch

01:13:10and I

01:13:12would be drafted a

01:13:14modernized a FedRAMP memo and

01:13:17Solicited in public comments, but that memo has not been finalized or issued and as you might imagine

01:13:23after

01:13:26Dissolving the JAB the Joint Authorization Board and

01:13:30a

01:13:32number of companies that were sort of in process feel that they are now in limbo and the whole point of

01:13:39trying to make the changes we made in law with respect to FedRAMP was to

01:13:43streamline and lower the cost and make it more predictable and reliable by having a presumption of adequacy that if you get

01:13:51Approved in one federal window, it's pretty much good to go unless there's something very very specialized. So when can we expect that memo and

01:14:00Do we have your commitment that in the spirit of the FedRAMP law?

01:14:04We passed and President signed that we're gonna do everything we can to meet the original goals of FedRAMP of

01:14:11six months, you know

01:14:13reasonable cost and

01:14:15Predictable. Yes, you have my commitment that we are and we are hard underway

01:14:19Hard work is underway to reform FedRAMP for the very reasons that you move forward with legislation for your ongoing leadership on this

01:14:27You have my commitment that we're can we will continue to make FedRAMP a priority and move expeditiously

01:14:32Good because we care a lot about that

01:14:35final final thing in your purview

01:14:38You chair the security clearance sustainability and credentialing performance accountability council a mouthful if there ever was one

01:14:46One of the biggest complaints certainly in my district form federal

01:14:51contractors

01:14:52In intelligence defense and homeland security is how how long it takes to a get a security clearance

01:15:01Be to even transfer it which ought to be the low-hanging fruit, right?

01:15:05I mean if you've already got one and you're gonna move from company a to company B

01:15:08It seems to me that ought to be easy and yet that also consumes a lot of time and a lot of bureaucracy

01:15:16What can what can I tell?

01:15:19Companies in my district and and and people living in limbo with respect to the security clearance. Is there hope in the way?

01:15:26Are we gonna get into that backlog? Are we gonna streamline the process as we move forward?

01:15:32Because that mouthful we refer to it as the pack

01:15:35To simplify up here pack means something else. All right, the the transformation effort

01:15:41We believe will result in meaningful

01:15:44Reductions in the overall timelines we put out those goals

01:15:48Last year in terms of the reductions

01:15:50We've had it at a stable place the backlogs been at a stable place and we've been making progress

01:15:54On the transfer of trust the reciprocity as you know, particularly at DOD, but we absolutely have more work to do

01:16:00All right, I'm gonna hold you to it and finally I wrote you a letter about OMB's compliance with the TAR

01:16:06We don't have a response yet. When might we expect that response? I am aware of the letter

01:16:12We will follow up with you expeditiously and we'll give you

01:16:16clarity and a timeline quickly

01:16:18All right. Thank you. Thank you chair. No recognized. Dr. Fox from North Carolina. Thank You. Mr. Chairman

01:16:24Thank You. Mr. Miller for being here

01:16:26I have several questions

01:16:27So I'd like to try to get through as many of them as I can

01:16:31The November 2023 revisions to OMB circular a4 our departure from the bipartisan and widely accepted

01:16:38practice and principles

01:16:40Dating back to the Clinton era the recent revision is little more than a thinly veiled

01:16:45Attempt to stack the deck in favor of extremely costly new regulations

01:16:49Why did the Biden administration feel the need to depart from the established bipartisan framework and guardrails for considering different

01:16:58regulatory approaches seeking to give Americans an

01:17:01accurate representation of the true cost of new regulations

01:17:07Congresswoman thank you for the question

01:17:09My purview is over our management apparatus not our regulatory and information

01:17:13What I will say is we take cost-benefit analysis very seriously the intent of updating a4

01:17:20Was to update approaches that are used to modernize the way we do cost-benefit analysis to make sure that we're taking all of the costs

01:17:27and all of the benefits

01:17:29adequately

01:17:30When we're looking at regulation again for specifics, I can come back to you. I don't oversee our regulates

01:17:36I have a follow-up. It seems to me that the OMB circular a4

01:17:41revisions are just deployed to allow agencies to overstate the benefits and

01:17:47undercount the cost regulations that we all know will bankrupt Americans so long as they can

01:17:53contain certain buzzwords like climate change and social cost of carbon

01:17:58My concern is that this new framework will allow even more expensive regulations to be justified

01:18:04Moving forward by quote

01:18:07Offsetting them in quote with so-called

01:18:10With inflated so-called benefits. Can you tell me the total projected cost of new regulations and rules?

01:18:18Cleared by OMB in the last roughly six months since the circular a4 was revised in November

01:18:25and how does that figure compare to the six-month period before the circular a4 was revised?

01:18:33Congresswoman again, the regulatory and information activities of OMB aren't under my purview

01:18:38It is we take cost-benefit analysis very seriously making sure that we're having the most bet accurate for both

01:18:45Okay. Well, this is a real specific question

01:18:49I'm asking you so I will ask you to give me the information within a week

01:18:54Because you shouldn't be any problem to tell us compare what I just said to you with the other time

01:19:01So I'm gonna ask mr. Chairman for that information within a week

01:19:05One of the key points made in the government accountability offices or GAO

01:19:09High risk list is that the Office of Management and Budget is critical to addressing high risk areas

01:19:16Because of its role in leading and supporting agencies, how can Congress help?

01:19:21OMB conduct more meaningful oversight to help improve high-risk programs

01:19:27Thank You congresswoman and this is an area that I've been very focused on in partnership with GAO

01:19:32I referenced a recent discussion that we had with the Bureau of Prisons, which is one of the newest

01:19:38issues added to the high-risk list

01:19:40Our focus is making sure that there are two things happening on every single one of the high-risk list items one

01:19:46Leadership attention is absolutely imperative that we have leadership attention in an area making sure that leaders of relevant agencies

01:19:53if we don't that would be a shared interest of OMB in Congress to make sure that we have leadership attention on every single one

01:19:59Of those and that we're making positive progress everywhere. We can in GAO's last high-risk list report

01:20:05They noted that we were making progress on 16 of the high-risk list areas, which they noted was the most in a two-year period

01:20:12We still have work to do and I would like to do better than that

01:20:15Well again, let me have a quick follow-up

01:20:18OMB is one of the largest agencies that does not have an Office of Inspector General

01:20:23What role do you think an Inspector General at OMB would play and how would it help make OMB more accountable?

01:20:30We have been very focused on the oversight community both GAO and IG's

01:20:36in late

01:20:372021

01:20:39December of 2021 we let issued

01:20:42guidance to all agencies on the importance of

01:20:45collaboration between

01:20:47agencies

01:20:47And IG's that's been a hallmark effort of this administration. Okay, one more question

01:20:53I authored the great act which set data standards for agency driven data collection across the federal government

01:21:00Can you tell me why each agency is left to its own devices to design its own grant application?

01:21:07processes and post award forms without

01:21:11Standardization and are there efforts to standardize the grant application process across federal agencies congresswoman?

01:21:18Thank you for that. And this is a topic that has come up today and something that appreciate your leadership on

01:21:24We absolutely want to be moving towards a broader enterprise approach

01:21:28We just overhauled our uniform grants guidance to drive that kind of consistency

01:21:33We're pushing agencies to implement that guidance by the end of the fiscal year and to dramatically

01:21:38Simplify their approaches to notice as a funding opportunity for more consistency, especially for

01:21:43Recipients that are receiving funds from multiple agencies. What's very important to our constituents all across the country that this be done

01:21:51They are suffering as a result of you're not doing that and we need to do it. Thank you. Mr. Chairman

01:21:57I yield back gentle lady yields back. Mr. Mr. Miller you you quoted

01:22:01I believe I'm going to quote you to the hallmark of the Biden administration's been working with the oversight community

01:22:06Could could you bring within a week evidence of that because we haven't seen that. Yes on our end of the especially with this committee

01:22:14They've called votes, but we're gonna try to get two more questioners in chair now recognize. Mr. Frost from Florida

01:22:19Thank you, Mr

01:22:20Chair nearly three million federal employees and 1.3 million private sector contractors hold security clearances

01:22:26That a lot of them work with sensitive federal information and data each of these individuals underwent comprehensive and extensive background

01:22:34investigations to clear their credentials

01:22:36Improving personal vetting and onboarding for the most sensitive government positions is key to our national security

01:22:41Especially when the legacy system is about 70 years old. So mr

01:22:45Miller in your role as chair of the performance accountability council spearheading the implementation of trusted workforce 2.0

01:22:52Can you briefly describe what trusted workforce 2.0 is?

01:22:57Yes, thank you and trusted workforce has been a project across multiple administrations

01:23:04Improving our overall personnel vetting system

01:23:06It is a relook at how we do suitability and security clearance and a rebuild of the underlying system

01:23:13standards and approaches

01:23:14one of the major changes which we have implemented now for the entirety of the national security workforce is to move away from a

01:23:21periodic

01:23:22Investigation model to a continuous vetting model. The result of that is that agencies identify potentially problematic information

01:23:29Years faster. That's a significant shift. We have a lot of work still to go

01:23:36We put out a quarterly report on our progress around the trusted workforce 2.0 effort

01:23:41But it's really imperative that we deliver through our overall implementation. Thank you

01:23:46I was actually going to touch on the continuous vetting and you know

01:23:49We know in July 2021 not long after it was adopted

01:23:53We heard about there was a defense

01:23:55Counterintelligence and security agency that received an alert that somebody with security clearance was wanted in connection with an attempted murder

01:24:03That individual is promptly removed as we know from security access

01:24:06But if we had not had continuous vetting they may have had access for another five and a half years

01:24:11While this instance demonstrates the system's potential

01:24:14Can you elaborate on how frequently such alerts have led to actionable intelligence since the program's inception I have been

01:24:21In discussions with agencies about their figures. I do not get into the specific personnel matters

01:24:28But from our agencies particularly our large agencies

01:24:31They've seen meaningful increases and the number of alerts that has off also required them to redo their business

01:24:38Processes so that they can navigate through a different approach

01:24:43Roughly how many people in the federal government are still under the periodic review?

01:24:47System where changes in their risk, you know could go unnoticed for about half a decade

01:24:51We have we have moved the national security sensitive workforce entirely into continuous vetting

01:24:57our next approach is to do the

01:25:00the non

01:25:02sensitive public trust

01:25:04Population into continuous vetting we're working to do that in the coming months. Thank you so much according to GAO

01:25:11Construction of the National Background Investigation Service is the underlying IT system enabling trust trusted workforce 2.0

01:25:18several years behind schedule despite spending about half a billion dollars on the

01:25:23NBIS system since 2016

01:25:25DoD has had neither developed a reliable schedule for completion of the project nor reliable cost estimate for the total project and unsurprisingly

01:25:33DoD recently told congressional staff that in business off schedule and over budget again

01:25:38How exactly will OMB and the Performance Accountability Council get these reforms on track? Thank you. And this has been an important focus and

01:25:47Late last year DoD informed me in my role as chair of the PAC that they were now behind on new timelines

01:25:54They reset their timelines in 2020 per the challenges with the earlier years

01:25:58In my role as PAC I directed DoD OD and I and OPM

01:26:04To provide action to provide responses on specific actions in 30 60 and 90 days so that we can

01:26:12Rebuild our schedule. I'm sure you're aware DoD briefed staff that they have new leadership in place at DCSA

01:26:19And this is their top priority in my position as PAC chair. I plan to hold them accountable

01:26:25Do you buy that the new leadership?

01:26:27You know that the old leadership was the whole source of the problem or have you identified other sources of the problem there?

01:26:34oftentimes within these

01:26:37large

01:26:38Transformation efforts there's inadequate technical talent

01:26:42That's been a major focus of DoD not just a leadership change

01:26:45But bringing in more technical talent into the team to make sure that we're delivering

01:26:50Thank you. Reforming our decades old security vetting system is crucial

01:26:54We can't allow poor planning and project management to affect our nation's ability to improve security clearance vetting

01:26:59I look forward to continuing this oversight work with my colleagues. Thank you

01:27:02Thank you congressman Tillman yields back and our last questioner before we take a recess for votes will be miss mace from South Carolina

01:27:10Thank You. Mr. Chairman

01:27:11Got a little sidetracked by your answers are actually non answers by representative Perry this morning on eo

01:27:19140

01:27:20119 about federal agencies political appointees specifically at federal agencies in the electioneering that would be allowed

01:27:27Under that executive order

01:27:30Why do you choose not to answer his questions this morning?

01:27:33Again, Congresswoman. I'm happy to take back specifics. This issue is not under my purview

01:27:39Do you believe that?

01:27:42political appointees at federal agencies should be able to

01:27:46Register voters and distribute mail-in ballots. Is that a kind of electioneering?

01:27:52Constitutional in your opinion. I've been a political appointee now under two administration

01:27:58You believe you should be registering voters like federal agencies political appointees at federal agencies should be allowed to register voters

01:28:04I've been a political appointee under two administrations and we have very strict

01:28:09Clear restrictions on what we are allowed to do under the Hatch Act, right? And is it?

01:28:14Constitutionally the power of elections and their oversight resides with the states. Is that correct?

01:28:20Again I have restrictions. The answer is yes there

01:28:25Okay, so I have a few questions in the last three and a half minutes that I have this morning

01:28:30I know that there is an effort afoot as you mentioned today talking about

01:28:37Federal jobs and requirements and the kinds of folks we need to hire in our federal workforce

01:28:42There are thousands of vacant federal IT jobs in the federal workforce

01:28:46Has four times as many IT workers over the age of 60 than under the age of 30 huge problem

01:28:54One part of the solution I believe is more creative hiring thinking outside of the box

01:28:58So this particular committee has voted out multiple bills of mine and almost unanimously. I think both times

01:29:04totally unanimously

01:29:06bipartisan way and

01:29:08the bills that I have

01:29:11Voted out of here the MACE Act H.R. 4502, which overwhelmingly passed actually out of the house last fall also

01:29:17Would waive and limit degree requirements for cybersecurity positions in federal government and then just a couple weeks ago

01:29:23We passed out of this committee H.R. 7887 the Access Act which would do the same thing for federal

01:29:30Contractors federal contracts and their workers

01:29:32So do you agree that these measures would be important to meeting our hiring goals for federal agencies in cyber?

01:29:38First I agree with you that we have a significant issue on IT an approach that is more oriented towards skills-based hiring

01:29:45Absolutely the right approach that we should be taking. I agree. We're doing in the private sector

01:29:49There's no reason why we can't do it in federal government

01:29:52Would you support both the MACE Act and the Access Act and their passage and being sworn and being signed into law?

01:29:57I'm not familiar with all of the specifics

01:29:59But I am very we are very supportive of making sure that we have a more skills-based hiring approach and would welcome working with you

01:30:06Okay, we need to protect the critical data and federal computers such as personally identifiable information of tens of millions of Americans

01:30:15But a series of reports show that too many federal employees are lax in their password protection

01:30:20In fact one in five there was a study done to look at passwords and one in five agency email accounts

01:30:2718,000 in total most commonly used password was password one two, three four some with a hyphen some without a hyphen

01:30:34And

01:30:36Hundreds of accounts were using these

01:30:39Passwords is there any way to hold federal employees accountable for not using appropriate cyber?

01:30:44Hygiene and putting America's data at risk when their accounts get hacked

01:30:48We absolutely need to strengthen cyber hygiene and one of the ways that OMB is focused on doing that is driving multi-factor authentication

01:30:55Okay across all of the federal workforce. Is that a requirement?

01:30:59We are driving agencies to have multi-factor authentication across federal personnel

01:31:03Do you know what percentage of federal employees are doing multi-factor?

01:31:06I don't have agencies specific number, but happy to phone. When did you guys start doing that push?

01:31:12the in

01:31:142021 the president issued an EO on cybersecurity with a broad range of measures our responsibility was over federal systems

01:31:22We issued guidance what we call our zero trust strategy

01:31:25That has been focused on a range of actions for agencies to take on endpoint detection on monitoring on multi-factor authentication

01:31:33We've also built those strategies into our budget process

01:31:37So we make sure that agencies have and then I have 30 seconds

01:31:39Are there any consequences for federal employees that don't follow guidance when it comes to password protection?

01:31:47cybersecurity issues, etc

01:31:49All federal employees are accountable to their managers on a broad range of how are they held accountable then?

01:31:55How is that done? I can't speak to the specifics of any

01:31:59Individual action but federal employees are responsible for following the guidance of their agencies and their but then when they don't what happens I

01:32:07don't want to speak to a hypothetical about a specific situation, but our expectation is that agencies are moving forward on

01:32:15Improving their cyber hygiene and on multi-factor authentication

01:32:18But do you get reports back on how many federal employees are following guidance and cyber hygiene like the numbers?

01:32:23I don't want to give you an imprecise answer, but I'd be happy to follow up

01:32:26But are you getting reports at least? Our

01:32:30OMB office monitors performance across agencies on things like multi-factor authentication. Yes. Okay. Thank you and I yield back

01:32:39Pursuant to the previous order the chair declares the committee in recess subject to the call of the chair. We plan to reconvene

01:32:4510 minutes after the last vote

01:32:48The committee stands in recess. The civics here

01:32:52Are not under my purview

01:32:53I've not focused my time on issues that are not under my purview for the moment

01:32:58I'm just asking you do you are you aware of any sort of office buzz that anything's being done on this?

01:33:03Are the reports being done is the OMB office in general working?

01:33:06I'm not you in meetings heard cross-pollination of any sort of conversations related to this executive order

01:33:11I'm not familiar with specific activities. It's not under my purview. I haven't spent my time on this

01:33:16Okay, that fine seems hard to believe but moving on to something that definitely isn't under your purview

01:33:21Last year the government accountability office released a report showing that during the first three months of 2023 17 out of 24 agencies

01:33:29Studied we're using their buildings at 25% capacity due to telework policies

01:33:36Is that still the case have you made progress on getting people back to work I

01:33:41Thank You congressman. Yes, we've made progress and agencies are implementing

01:33:46That data shows two issues one is where agencies were in implementing

01:33:52Updated telework policies and long-standing challenges we have with having too much real estate

01:33:58Within the federal government an issue that existed long before this administration with regards to where we are right now

01:34:05in April of 23, so after that data, we directed agencies to

01:34:12Take steps to substantially increase

01:34:14their in-person presence to reflect the their mission space organize that around making sure that they're

01:34:21Performing where there's similarities where we have office workers

01:34:24So we refer to it as headquarters and equivalents in our guidance that they're achieving at least 50% in time

01:34:31with their ability to adjust

01:34:34Accordingly, we're making progress agencies are still implementing

01:34:38Okay, I mean for most of America 50% would still seem like a low mark

01:34:42I mean granted that would be progress compared to 25%

01:34:47Yeah, and you do mention like maybe the buildings are too big for the right size

01:34:51You know in the private sector. We look at telework is okay

01:34:54You're gonna maybe take a hit on productivity, but you're gonna gain on you know

01:34:59You won't need the office space and so you'll save money there, you know and kind of how a business

01:35:02But we never seem to see that same ROI when it comes to the like

01:35:06We don't have agencies coming to us and saying well, we don't need this building anymore

01:35:09We don't need this office space so we can reduce our budget here to make up for it there

01:35:13So I would just encourage you to continue to work along that along those lines

01:35:18It was reported that President Biden's chief of staff had to personally exhort cabinet secretaries to get their employees back to the office

01:35:24To just 50% of the time

01:35:27Are we at 50% yet or how's that going?

01:35:30so

01:35:32About half of the federal workforce can't telework because of their job responsibilities

01:35:37Our guidance was on focus on office workers where we are and what we've directed agencies to do is to monitor by hours

01:35:45So what is the share of hours that are in person where we are for the federal government overall again?

01:35:51Half of our workforce

01:35:53Can't telework to their job responsibilities where we are overall is about 80% based upon the discussions that we've had with agencies today

01:36:00Okay, the architect of the capitals inspector general recently found 8% of telework eligible employees we're getting improper

01:36:08Locality pay wasting hundreds of thousands of tax dollars

01:36:12Is this occurring at AOC or if it is it you would think it's also happening at other agencies as well

01:36:20How many federal employees have had their telework agreements revoked for misconduct fraud or other improper behavior or simply poor performance?

01:36:28So for federal agents, I think the specific

01:36:31issue you are speaking to is

01:36:34around

01:36:35Appropriate locality pay or whether or not people are following their telework agreements each individual employee should have a telework agreement

01:36:43They're responsible for upholding that my expectation is agency leaders are holding them accountable to the telework agreements that they've signed

01:36:52Similarly if they've taken action where individuals are not in a consistent place with the locality that they should be in

01:37:00Agencies need to fix that. I'm not aware of this being a widespread issue

01:37:05I can appreciate you expecting that the work would be done. But you know, it's been said president Reagan trust, but verify I've heard someone say

01:37:14Unless you inspect what you expect you won't get what you expect. So I think it's important that you

01:37:20Be well aware of where we are on this

01:37:22One of the things that we've seen

01:37:24in DHS, for example

01:37:27336 individuals

01:37:29applied for kovat 19 relief funds

01:37:33while

01:37:35Also continuing to be employed

01:37:37So they were getting unemployment benefits while continuing to be employed and actually receiving overtime pay

01:37:42And this is we've heard stories of like this through the IRS and those kind of things

01:37:48How many employees have been held accountable to that have fired for basically essentially stealing from the taxpayer

01:37:55What kind of accountability metrics have been put in place to?

01:37:59Not only make sure this doesn't happen again, but make sure that those who've done this

01:38:03Are not in positions of public trust

01:38:07I'm not aware of the specifics of the DHS

01:38:12example that you cited

01:38:14Federal employees absolutely are responsible for upholding the law and they should be held accountable if they don't

01:38:21We agree that they should be the question is we don't hear that they are being held accountable. So my question to you is

01:38:28Do you know of cases where people are being fired for essentially defrauding the American people?

01:38:36Fraud during the pandemic was a challenge that we face. I'm not familiar with the specifics of the DHS

01:38:41Case my expectation is that we also have inside of agencies IG's

01:38:48Looking into issues such as that and agencies

01:38:51Yeah, a lot of this information comes from the IG reports and the story we're getting is that nothing's being done to provide disciplinary action

01:38:59So I'm asking you to you know, if there has been and certainly could you look into that?

01:39:04I'm happy to look into those cases. Thank you very much

01:39:07Okay, thank you chair now recognized miss Presley from Massachusetts

01:39:12Thank You. Mr. Miller for joining us today. I want to take a moment to discuss the critical importance of DEI work

01:39:19Colleagues across the aisle have waged an all-out war on diversity equity and inclusion

01:39:23I'm not sure if it's that they just hate one aspect of it like diversity

01:39:29Or if it's the combination of all three

01:39:32Regardless this Republican minority has demonstrated

01:39:35it's out of touch with the priorities of everyday people and it's focused its effort on passing legislation and budgets to undermine DEI and

01:39:42Entrench systemic discrimination against people of color folks with disabilities and other marginalized groups

01:39:48Republicans sought to defund the Office of Civil Rights in the Department of Education

01:39:52Which is essential to confronting the rise in anti-semitism and Islamophobia

01:39:57impacting our students

01:39:58Republicans voted to stop the hiring of DEI personnel in the military despite evidence that it will improve

01:40:05military readiness and

01:40:07Republicans consistently use

01:40:08harmful rhetoric at every opportunity to undermine the talent knowledge skills and the training of professionals in every sector where DEI

01:40:16initiatives exist and

01:40:18They often pervert mischaracterize and weaponize the words of dr

01:40:23Martin Luther King jr

01:40:24Despite the fact that his children his surviving children have repeatedly asked them to cease and desist from doing so

01:40:31It is no surprise that the same people

01:40:34Complaining about DEI are the same people who complained about the MeToo movement about Black Lives Matter

01:40:41About the ERA about the gay rights movement and so much more

01:40:46The fact that as soon as someone who was black or gay has a disability earns a promotion

01:40:52Republicans complain that they are unqualified and begin ranting about how diversity equity and inclusion is ruining the country

01:41:00It's shameful. It's untrue. It's discriminatory and we must not back down in our efforts to create a nation that respects all

01:41:09People might I add that the opposition is majority overwhelmingly white and male

01:41:16Now President Biden signed a historic executive order on his first day in office to take a whole-of-government approach that embodies

01:41:23Equity in the administration's work to ensure all people benefit not just the wealthy and well-connected

01:41:30Mr. Miller the Office of Management and Budget plays an outsized role in implementing and overseeing the executive orders on equity

01:41:36Can you explain why equity is an important part of performance goals?

01:41:42Performance goals for agencies

01:41:45Thank You congresswoman and there was a phrase that you use that is central to explaining it is that

01:41:52Government should work for all Americans. So one example of something that we are doing is

01:41:59around accessibility

01:42:01associated with that with government services

01:42:04We have many government digital

01:42:08Websites and services where it's hard for some people including disabled individuals to access those government services and we're working

01:42:15To improve that our services aren't working if they're not serving all of America

01:42:25I agree. What is an example of how President Biden's executive order on equity has helped folks across the country?

01:42:33Well, we

01:42:35One of the things that we have done is to broaden and discussed in this hearing the way in which we are utilizing federal

01:42:43financial assistance to reach more broadly into communities to improve performance of the dollars to make sure that

01:42:51community based organizations that might otherwise not have applied for federal funds are

01:42:55Able to access those funds and better deliver because they are better. They're closer to those in their community

01:43:01That means better results. That means more efficiency. And frankly, that means less waste on useless overhead

01:43:08Thank you the executive order. This is truly a first of its kind

01:43:12I'm proud to partner with ranking member Raskin on legislation to codify key aspects into law

01:43:18So that they will exist in perpetuity

01:43:21The truth is that America needs DEI to disrupt systems of oppression

01:43:25That are active in every facet of our society DEI initiatives are how we combat white supremacy

01:43:32anti-semitism ableism sexism transphobia and

01:43:35More on the face of this opposition. I applaud those who are committed to doing this work from college presidents corporate executives

01:43:42to community organizers and academic researchers and to those who are against DEI I

01:43:49Would love to know really what you are so afraid of

01:43:53What are you so threatened by?

01:43:55Thank you. I yield

01:43:58Gentlelady yields, I'll never recognize myself for five minutes

01:44:02Mr. Miller chairman sessions and I sent you a letter in January asking for documents and information

01:44:08Around both telework and your healthy workplaces guidance your response did not include any of the documents we requested

01:44:15Understanding how agencies are measuring their performance is important for the committee's oversight as is

01:44:20Understanding how their return-to-work plans are progressing when we spoke yesterday

01:44:24You expressed a willingness to share that information with us

01:44:27I'd like for you to confirm that for the record today that you'll work with us on getting that information

01:44:32I know lots of other members have asked

01:44:36Asked the same question, so I'll ask it again on the record will OMB provide the committee the plans and relevant information agencies have provided

01:44:44Pursuant to OMB's healthy workplaces guidance with the committee

01:44:48Congress

01:44:49chairman Comer

01:44:51Thank you. We are

01:44:53Currently in the process of collecting updated information from agencies to develop a report for the Appropriations Committee

01:45:00As directed by FY 24 appropriations legislation that oh, yes, that's it. Okay, so in our policies and more in

01:45:09going back to to

01:45:11telework and

01:45:12You can see the the frustration on our side of the aisle because we don't believe the federal government is

01:45:18Any more efficient or productive with with its new wide open telework policy

01:45:24We don't even know what the telework policy is. We just know that there's a

01:45:27Significantly higher percentage of the federal workforce that's working from home as opposed to working

01:45:33In the office now if you can prove

01:45:36To us through data that it's more efficient then then we'll accept that but we'll start selling off

01:45:43Unnecessary federal properties, that's something that Mayor Bowser

01:45:46Strongly agrees with us as well

01:45:48so one of the things that we've noticed is that that President Biden and his chief of staff have called for

01:45:55agencies to get back to

01:45:58working within the office, but

01:46:01It doesn't appear the federal employees are

01:46:04Adhering to the president's policy. So why has it been so difficult for the Biden administration to get workers back in the office?

01:46:13Chairman we share the goal of making sure that we have a data-oriented approach. That's why we had a whole

01:46:19But you agree. They're not I mean, there's still a lot more people that aren't coming into the office that I think

01:46:26every agency

01:46:28Would hope would come into the office, right? We have set a standard for office workers

01:46:33They're where there's comparability and agencies are still implementing which what's taking so long my god

01:46:39Covid's been over to over two years three years

01:46:43We have and you noted this in terms of communication

01:46:47Pushing on agency leadership. That's is it a weak president?

01:46:51I mean if the president says for them to come back to work and they don't come back to work

01:46:56I mean, why are the the civil servants disobeying the orders of the president United States?

01:47:00Yeah, Chairman Comer as you know about half of our federal workforce already has to be at the work site and has been at are

01:47:07They due to their are they due to their job responsibilities every single day?

01:47:12Our expectation is that agencies are monitoring our expectations. Also that agencies

01:47:18I don't think they're coming to work and that's what our sources tell us

01:47:22We don't feel the government, you know

01:47:24If you talk to any caseworkers the people in our staff on our staffs that do the work they have had

01:47:32Significant difficulty getting people on the phone at the VA at the IRS

01:47:37It at the US Department of Agriculture and the agencies go on and on Medicare

01:47:44It appears

01:47:46That's because they have a lot of their workforce still working from home. They're doing what they want

01:47:51They're not obeying the directive of the president United States

01:47:56And and I don't think you have any data

01:47:59After all this time to prove they're they're coming back to work

01:48:02You sure don't have any data that that shows it's a better deal to the taxpayers

01:48:06We all work for the taxpayers whether we're in Congress whether you work for the federal government

01:48:10We work for the taxpayers of America and the taxpayers aren't getting their money's worth

01:48:16No one says we're totally opposed to telework

01:48:19We just want to see data that shows it's more efficient and and I don't think you all have that data

01:48:24I don't think you've tried to get the data because I don't think

01:48:28There's a willingness by this administration to want to alienate the federal workforce

01:48:33That's not a good deal for the for the American taxpayers

01:48:37so

01:48:38We've asked this information. You say you're compiling it with all due respect. You should have already compiled it and

01:48:45We should know exactly what percentage of the workforce is is working from home

01:48:50and we should also know whether or not that's a

01:48:54Provided more efficiency and effectiveness for the American taxpayer, which I don't think it has but we'd like to see that that data

01:49:02and I've

01:49:04used all of my time on this but we're very frustrated with that and

01:49:08Then with respect to schedule elf

01:49:11I have to say this one of the problems that a new administration

01:49:17Often encounters is they come in and you know, if you talk about energy policy with the EPA

01:49:23That's going to be an issue in this presidential election. If you if we change administrations

01:49:28We're going to have a significantly different energy policy in America

01:49:32but if we if you have federal workforce that doesn't comply with the will of the American people with the mandate that the American people

01:49:38have given a new administration they continue to

01:49:44Restrict drilling restrict fracking

01:49:47Opposed, you know any type of fossil fuel then that

01:49:51Isn't a good deal for the American people the American people aren't getting what they voted for at the ballot

01:49:56we have a lot of federal employees that

01:50:00That that spend all their their time obstructing a new administration's policy directors administration elected by the people

01:50:06So we believe schedule elf is a good

01:50:10deal

01:50:11For the American people for the the taxpayer. So I just want to throw that in there

01:50:17Do you all have another question? If not, I'll recognize mr

01:50:22Timmons for five minutes. Mr. Timmons from South Carolina

01:50:26Thank you, chairman. I thank you for holding this hearing today, and I'm gonna thank the deputy director

01:50:30From OMB for being here today. I'm gonna talk about debt

01:50:34I ran for Congress six years ago, and I remember the line I used the chairman of the Joint Chiefs in

01:50:412010 said testified before Congress that the number one national security threat facing the United States

01:50:48Was our inability to spend within our means Congress's inability to spend within its means at the time in 2010

01:50:55This is kind of shocking. Our debt was 13.5 trillion dollars

01:51:00Today our debt is almost 35 trillion dollars

01:51:05We have a 1.8 trillion dollar deficit

01:51:09Annually, and we're adding a trillion dollars in debt

01:51:13To our debt every hundred days

01:51:14It is just entirely unsustainable and while Congress has to solve some of these problems

01:51:19I do believe that OMB can can lead in some of these areas

01:51:25So I'm going to talk about a bill that I sponsored with a friend of mine from Washington representative Kilmer

01:51:32It was HR 773 31 the Improving Government for America's Taxpayers Act and it requires GAO

01:51:39To submit a report annually on the estimated cost savings of its

01:51:44Unimplemented recommendations and report on high-risk areas for waste fraud and abuse and mismanagement

01:51:50And OMB has a huge role in this

01:51:52I mean y'all y'all are leading the charge to try to root out waste fraud and abuse and save taxpayer dollars

01:51:58so this bill was signed into law in December of 2022 as a part of the

01:52:04Fiscal year 2023 NDAA and so I guess my question to you is are you aware of this GAO program?

01:52:11The the high-risk area program to try to save money

01:52:15Are you speaking sorry, are you speaking to the specific report or to the high-risk list?

01:52:20The high-risk list that I mean technically OMB is a huge

01:52:25Has a huge leadership role in implementing those

01:52:29recommendations. Yes, and and

01:52:31In my role I work closely with GAO with the Comptroller General and his team on all of the high-risk list areas

01:52:38We convene all of the relevant agencies in some case

01:52:41We are the relevant agency on making sure that we are making meaningful improvements in GAO's most recent

01:52:48High-risk list report they noted that there was more improvement over the prior two years on high-risk list items than there's ever been

01:52:55That's great. We got to keep going in that direction

01:52:58Would you agree that debt is one of the biggest challenges facing our country?

01:53:04The president believes deeply in fiscal responsibility and put forward a budget director young was here in front of House budget

01:53:11testifying on

01:53:13His approach on the president's approach

01:53:16Okay

01:53:17Do you know of any steps that are being taken to address the high-risk areas that you were you were referencing?

01:53:22I

01:53:23Specifically or just you are generally aware of the program and the yes

01:53:29I work with GAO on

01:53:32bringing together our team at OMB the GAO team and the

01:53:35Agencies on each of the high-risk areas to make sure that we have visibility on whether they're making progress and importantly

01:53:42One of the areas I'm particularly committed to is making sure that we have leadership attention on

01:53:47Every single one of the high-risk list areas because without leadership attention, we're not going to get progress

01:53:52Could you talk me through how is that siloed into the like who in your agency is tasked with with which?

01:53:58Areas of the high-risk list. How does that work?

01:54:02so

01:54:03we

01:54:05The Comptroller General and I convene what we call tripartite meetings. That was something that had been done under previous administrations

01:54:12There's something I committed to

01:54:14During my confirmation hearings in early 2021. We've worked through

01:54:19the vast majority of those within OMB both

01:54:23Management team and the resource management offices that oversee individual agencies participate in those so that we're monitoring progress

01:54:31GAO has a rating system a five-point rating system

01:54:34Leadership attention is one of the five items in order to move things off of the high-risk list

01:54:41So the combination of GAO oversight and OMB working closely with agencies is how we've approached high-risk list areas

01:54:47Thank you. Is there an opportunity to use technology perhaps even AI to try to further increase?

01:54:54Savings, I think there is real opportunity for AI. We're committed to making sure that we're doing that

01:55:01responsibly including on tackling things

01:55:05Like fraud we have opportunities. There was

01:55:08An analytics center that was created by the prac the oversight body for pandemic relief

01:55:14We believe maintaining that analytics center across the federal government will enable us to use better

01:55:20Analytics and the possibility for AI to look into that data so we can identify risks and reduce and prevent fraud

01:55:27Thank you for that. The federal government is gonna have to do more with less

01:55:30we have to get our spending under control and we got to grow the economy to spend our

01:55:35Create additional tax revenue to pay our way out of the debt that we're under

01:55:38I appreciate all that you're doing to help save taxpayer dollars with that. Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank you. Mr

01:55:43Timmons and at this point I will recognize myself

01:55:46Which I always think it's kind of weird because if I was looking at a mirror to go

01:55:49Hey, there's Tim Burchett and I go. Yeah, that's me and then I'd recognize myself, but I'm not doing that

01:55:53Mr. Miller does the executive does the Office of Management and Budget comply with the executive order on

01:56:01promoting access to voting

01:56:04Congressman again a number of your colleagues have asked this question me. This isn't I know they always ask the number

01:56:10They always give you to whatever the number and I'm like, I was gonna remember the dadgum number. I

01:56:16Appreciate that again. This is an issue that is not under my purview

01:56:19I will take this back to OMB and I will make sure that we have a response to you

01:56:24Okay, and I would like in that response to provide

01:56:27I

01:56:30Want you to keep track of how many members it helps to register

01:56:35And I want the details on showing the locations the precincts that are targeted what targeted whether the rural or urban and

01:56:43What states or cities that you all are doing that in? Can you do that? I

01:56:50Understand your request again. This is not an issue. That's been under my purview

01:56:54Okay, but it is under the department, is that correct

01:56:58I'm not familiar with the specific activities. It's not in my purview to the extent. We are directed actions under the EO

01:57:04We will absolutely provide a response to you. Okay?

01:57:07Also, how does your office the management and budget reduce?

01:57:12improper payments and fraud across the federal government

01:57:16Congressman thank you on this topic. This is a major focus particularly in 2021

01:57:21when

01:57:22At the beginning of this administration

01:57:24We came in amidst the pandemic

01:57:27Major challenges still in the economy and we're implementing a set of relief programs some of which we had inherited from 2020

01:57:34There was significant. There was historic levels of fraud in our pandemic relief programs

01:57:39They provided critical relief

01:57:41But there were also not basic controls put in place in 2020 that would have allowed us to do things to prevent the fraud

01:57:47While enabling timely implementation

01:57:49We took steps to reinstate basic controls the three main programs that experience us that fraud

01:57:55We're PPP and idle at SBA and UI programs, which are state administered but overseen by the Department of Labor things like

01:58:04Utilizing the do not pay list at the Department of Treasury

01:58:07Things like making sure that businesses have their tax transcripts so that we know that they are in fact real businesses

01:58:14Presidents also put forward in

01:58:162023 a comprehensive anti-fraud proposal that would both provide the resources for inspectors general and the Department of Justice

01:58:24to go after the guys who took advantage of

01:58:27these programs and also

01:58:29Implement additional steps to prevent fraud going forward. We believe with the combination of the steps that we have taken

01:58:37Including bringing the IG's in on the front end of program design and the president's anti-fraud proposal

01:58:43We could have prevented a substantial portion of the fraud that occurred

01:58:48We should never be in that situation where our systems are not prepared

01:58:52And I think it is this should not be it

01:58:54This should be an issue that we can work together on

01:58:56To make sure that we're taking the steps and learning the lessons from those pandemic relief programs to strengthen our systems going forward in your opinion

01:59:04What agencies are most prone to the waste fraud and abuse?

01:59:08What we saw inside of the pandemic or the three programs I mentioned at SBA

01:59:15And the UI programs in part the UI

01:59:19program you had state systems that were overwhelmed their systems weren't able to keep up with the

01:59:25sizable number of

01:59:27Individuals applying and they didn't have adequate controls on the front end

01:59:32This is also an area where we report we are pushing on agencies to strengthen their analysis around improper payments and

01:59:40annually re-release

01:59:42Improper payments and major programs both the level and rate for those major programs

01:59:49What are the resources that are available to y'all as far as the federal agencies

01:59:56And are the agencies all aware of these resources, I'm sorry, could you clarify the question?

02:00:02Yeah, the government-wide resources there that are available to federal agencies reduce risk. I'm sorry to reduce the risk of improper payments. Yes frauds

02:00:10Yes

02:00:10So one of the key resources that we've been working to build up is the do not pay list at the Treasury Department

02:00:17That has meant us putting more data into it. So for example

02:00:21We have made the full death master file available in the do not pay list. This was a story that was in 2020 where

02:00:28Certain checks were going out to individuals that were deceased because we didn't have updated data in the programs that could identify

02:00:35Who had recently?

02:00:37passed away

02:00:39Strengthening the do not pay list is something that we want to do going forward and make sure that we're utilizing more broadly across programs

02:00:46Okay, my time is just about up I would tell them remind the members that um

02:00:51I had just had a conversation with the chairman about a situation at GW where

02:00:57the

02:00:59the students felt threatened and where they felt like they were in danger and the school asked for

02:01:05Police presence there and the mayor turned them down

02:01:09We're calling we're asking the chairman if we can have some hearing on that tomorrow or in the next few days

02:01:15To get to the bottom of that

02:01:16So I just put putting the members on notice that was actually brought to me by a friend of mine across the aisle

02:01:22So it's a bipartisan issue

02:01:25Next we'll recognize

02:01:27Representative Goldman see here. Oh

02:01:30No, Representative Crockett. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm just going by the list that was up here

02:01:35Thank you so much before I begin my officially prepared remarks

02:01:40There were some questions posed to you specifically about debt

02:01:45And there seemed to be a concern about the mounting debt and I am going out on a limb

02:01:51And I am going to ask you if you are aware of how much debt

02:01:56We added under the Trump administration out of curiosity if you don't know

02:02:01I know off the top of my head, but something tells me you may know I I have an imprecise number

02:02:06I think you have the precise number in front of you

02:02:08So I don't want to give you the imprecise number if you have the person I know give me the imprecise

02:02:12Please well, I'm going I'm going off of my head because that wasn't part of what I was gonna say

02:02:17But long story short eight trillion dollars was added under the Trump administration

02:02:22And so I think that it is important that we focus on making sure that we're keeping our debt under control

02:02:28But I think it's also important that we're honest about how that debt is accrued and make sure that we don't

02:02:35Continue to make the same mistakes

02:02:36I know that the election was brought up and there are those that are standing by their man

02:02:40But they also seem to be concerned about debt

02:02:42Which seems like the two don't go together because we know that their man

02:02:47Actually is really good at running up the credit card debt

02:02:50For this country because he likes to give tax breaks to his very rich friends

02:02:55Which means that we don't get as much money coming through the door when they are not required to pay their fair share

02:03:02So I just wanted to make sure that we put that out there

02:03:05First and foremost, I recently was appointed to the weaponization subcommittee and

02:03:11So I'm going to have plenty of long days ahead of me kind of like what I have here on oversight

02:03:17But the point of the weaponization committee was to have a conversation about the government being weaponized

02:03:24In a way so that people could somehow get some personal gain because there's this theory that

02:03:30This administration has somehow weaponized the government

02:03:33There is not this acknowledgement that the other guy just as a criminal because that's just too hard to believe

02:03:38Even though he currently is sitting in New York facing criminal charges that were not brought by the federal government, but instead by state

02:03:46government nevertheless

02:03:48So when I think about weaponization

02:03:50I honestly can only think about Trump and his administration and all the work that he did to harm federal employees

02:03:57So to be clear Trump's 2020 executive order would have effectively gutted civil service job protections for workers across the federal

02:04:05government

02:04:07Trump would have created politically charged firings of potentially thousands of federal workers and made these public servants subject to the whims of a

02:04:14Political dictator and his posse rather than the adherence of the tenants of our Constitution. So let's be clear

02:04:21Individuals pursuing public service do so largely because of their belief in government

02:04:25I'm sure you can make a lot more money if you just decided to go elsewhere in private industry a lot of us could honestly

02:04:32But if this rule is implemented, it would destroy the little bit of foundation and structure public servants still have that allowed them to put

02:04:41People over politics. How do I know this? Because Trump and his Republican lackeys stated they felt

02:04:47Nonpartisan bureaucrats were hampering Trump's policies and he wanted to quote shatter the deep state

02:04:52in fact president Donald Trump's personnel chief John

02:04:56McEntee told agency officials at a meeting to implement staffing changes and movements across the government

02:05:05Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter into the record an article from Axios stating that mr

02:05:10John McEntee a 29 year old at the time a former body man to Trump who was fired in

02:05:172018 by then chief of staff John Kelly

02:05:19But then rehired and promoted to head the presidential personnel office directed staff to identify

02:05:26Anti-trumpers and stated that they will no longer get promotions and would be shifted around agencies

02:05:32Without objection. Thank you so much. Now. Mr. Miller

02:05:35Can you tell us how the implementation of schedule F would impact the morale and performance of all federal employees?

02:05:42Thank You congresswoman. This is a

02:05:45Critical issue and a critical question in the first week in office president Biden canceled schedule F

02:05:50This is real for OMB the vast majority of our staff in 2020 was being considered to move

02:05:57To schedule F. I think this would have a debilitating impact on the basic performance of federal agencies

02:06:03We already have a system where 3,000 different roles are for political appointees

02:06:08Those political appointees are in leadership and decision-making roles overseeing their agencies if we were to if we were to

02:06:17Go down the path that you outlined where there were arbitrary or political decisions and made instead of decisions made around

02:06:24expertise and experience

02:06:27It would deeply harm the institutional knowledge in our agencies

02:06:30But it also deeply harm our ability to recruit talent going forward into organizations that we want to organize around

02:06:38performance

02:06:39Thank you so much for your answer and I absolutely agree

02:06:43my mother has worked and I don't know how many federal agencies since I was a little girl in elementary school and

02:06:49I promise you we have changed from Democrats to Republicans to MAGA back to all the things

02:06:55But I can tell you that she is so very qualified to do her work and this would be devastating

02:07:00Thank you so much, and I yield thank her for her service gentle lady yields. I recognize myself for five minutes

02:07:07Thanks for being here, mr. Miller

02:07:10so

02:07:11Every year the federal government

02:07:14obligates more than a trillion dollars in federal financial assistance

02:07:18Some some go to grants

02:07:20Some go to cooperative agreements other direct appropriations or property donations. I'm trying to

02:07:25Understand grants if you can if you can help me with grants

02:07:28Yes, how many how many of those in dollars how much of that is going to grantees of?

02:07:35The 1.2 trillion. Yeah, I don't have the precise breakdown between grants and other forms of federal financial

02:07:42Would that be possible for you guys to grab and get to me? I'd be happy to follow up with you on specifics

02:07:47Great. Thank you. And I and I'm I'm thinking that there might be as many as 40,000 recipients

02:07:53I would like to know the number of recipients as well

02:07:55We can get back to you on the specifics there as well

02:07:57Very good

02:07:58And because and the reason I'm going that way is because I want to know a couple of things

02:08:03Are these grants pursuant to administrative regulatory

02:08:09Creation or the statutory animals our programs are operating under statutory

02:08:17Under under statutes so federal financial assistance programs, there's a wide array of them

02:08:23But I'm focusing specifically on grants not necessarily

02:08:28Financial assistance benefits or that type of thing. So so grantees and so the grant programs. It's my understanding

02:08:34Some are statutorily created others are

02:08:37Created through bureaucratic rulemaking that that they they believe that they've been delegated authority on that

02:08:43I'm trying to get a breakdown on that. Is that possible for you to get for us?

02:08:46Be happy to take back your question

02:08:48Make sure that we have response and the some grants are by formula sure grants are competitive grants in nature

02:08:55all of these programs have the statutory authority to

02:08:59Move forward on their federal financial assistance

02:09:01so on pages six and seven of your of your testimony you talk about some of the anti-fraud measures that that have been put in

02:09:09place and those seem to focus on

02:09:12The the benefits that are being given as opposed to grants and I'm wondering what kind of measures. Do you guys have?

02:09:21because OMB is actually

02:09:23Indicated that there is

02:09:25Waste even perhaps even in the grant program. And so I'm trying to understand what do you have?

02:09:32The same mechanism in place to recover money from grantees that have perhaps defrauded or gotten outside of their lane. So we we

02:09:40Recently announced an overhaul to our uniform grants guidance. We worked with the inspector general community on that so that by

02:09:49Simplifying the guidance we made it easier for

02:09:53inspectors general to do their jobs and identify areas of waste fraud and abuse one specific that I would note is

02:10:03So, okay. I I'm sorry. I don't want to cut you off, but there's another area

02:10:07I want to get into so I would I would

02:10:09Love any additional details that you might want to send memo form to us that I would include as part of the record if that

02:10:15Would be possible. Mr. Miller understood. Thank you. Thank you so much

02:10:19Since the Hamas attacks on Israel of October 7th, there have been reports of federal employees calling for walkouts

02:10:25Federal employees have also been circulating open letters. I'll be it anonymously

02:10:29Voicing strong opposition to the president's policies in Gaza

02:10:32Federal employees have First Amendment rights wreck. I recognize that the same as every American does but they can't strike

02:10:40and

02:10:42with that in mind

02:10:44What if any action has been taken to identify federal employees who engage in illegal job actions in protest against the president's policies in Gaza

02:10:54Chair I understand or congressman. I understand the question and the concern. I'm not familiar with

02:11:01Specific actions that were taken is there a way you could should

02:11:05Agencies should have procedures in place to make sure that their employees are complying with

02:11:11Their responsibilities including some of the responsibilities you noted

02:11:14So you would you would be able to find out if there are policies in place and if if there's been any

02:11:20Action based on those policies for us. I'm happy to take that back. Yes. Yeah. Thank you

02:11:24And and so when you take it back as everybody up here knows everybody tells us

02:11:29We'll take it back and we'll get back with you

02:11:31I'd like to ask you if there's maybe in a couple weeks we can get an answer to these questions that I've been posing to

02:11:36You if that's is that acceptable? Yes, great

02:11:39And additionally

02:11:41We'd like to know more about anything

02:11:44Related to any kind of these employment employee

02:11:49Actions, so just look forward to hearing from you. Mr. Miller and with that I'm gonna

02:11:55Yield back the balance of my time and I'm gonna recognize for a closing statement

02:12:00Mr. Chairman before we do that. Oh miss Stansbury's gun. Oh, yeah. Sorry didn't realize that. Yeah before she goes

02:12:05Could I just you got some submit for you?

02:12:08Yes article from the Washington Business Journal called the benefits of project labor agreements

02:12:13along with the myths an article from the

02:12:15Economic Policy Institute called project labor agreements on federal construction projects will benefit nearly 200,000 workers in an article on

02:12:24Project labor agreements and community workforce agreements from the Center on American Progress without objection. So ordered. Thank you

02:12:30And I now recognize for five minutes the gentlelady from New Mexico miss Stansbury

02:12:34Great Thank You. Mr. Chairman and welcome. Mr. Miller. It's wonderful to have you here today as a proud

02:12:40OMB alum and former

02:12:42Civil servant serving in this great nation's government of ours

02:12:47I'm especially happy to have the final word here in the committee before closing statements. I served at OMB between

02:12:542011 and 15 and I was a program examiner in the OMB interior branch

02:12:59so

02:13:00It's wonderful to be able to be on this side and to say thank you to all of your staff

02:13:05And of course to anyone who's watching back in the EEOB or the any OB. Hi friends

02:13:10I want to just take a few moments to talk about the importance of the civil service and

02:13:16the attacks that we saw in the previous administration as you are well aware in October of

02:13:222020 then President Trump issued an executive order that sought to turn our federal workforce into partisan loyalists, thankfully

02:13:31Democrats and Congress worked to prevent implementation and the Biden-Harris administration

02:13:36Revoked this order almost immediately when they came into office, but it went far beyond that executive order

02:13:41We saw during the Trump administration that across the federal service

02:13:46You know

02:13:47There were heads of agencies and departments that were moved within the SES bands and whole

02:13:53Agency headquarters were moved to different cities and states

02:13:56With the intention of trying to get civil servants to quit their jobs because they couldn't fire them

02:14:01it was a massive disruption to the federal workforce thousands of people left their jobs and

02:14:07part of why we're still struggling under the current administration to catch up on so many vital services is because of

02:14:14The actions that were taken and I know mr. Miller you're serving in a political role

02:14:19But talk to us about the importance of our civil service

02:14:23What what is their role within the federal government?

02:14:27And why is it so crucial that political appointees don't serve in every single role that the federal government does?

02:14:34Thank you, and thank you from for your service at OMB. We're proud of all of our alumni

02:14:41The first

02:14:44The effective performance of our organizations

02:14:46This is true in public and private sector is based on having strong teams and strong culture within the federal government

02:14:52We have an a hundred and forty year tradition of a non-partisan

02:14:56Act a non-partisan service system based on merit

02:15:01That we look at people skills their expertise and their experience. We want to cultivate that

02:15:09Irrespective of what their personal views are. We want our teams to bring that to the office every day

02:15:15I know as a leader and a manager

02:15:17I want a team that gives me their very best that gives me their real views even if those views are in

02:15:23Disagreement with my own because I want the best advice in

02:15:27Making decisions about what we need to do going forward. We have 3,000 different roles

02:15:32That where we have political appointees fill them in leadership positions across agencies

02:15:37They are responsible for setting the agenda for leading those agencies for ultimately being the decision makers

02:15:42but the institutional knowledge and the expertise of our civil servants is critical to the well-functioning of

02:15:50Our government whether that's providing good customer experience at a call center or that's delivering relief after a disaster

02:15:58Having our civil servants know that they are there based on their merit is critical to well-performing

02:16:04Organizations irrespective of who is in the White House

02:16:06Thank you, and you know, I would add to that not only are they kind of the heart and soul of these institutions themselves

02:16:13They're the institutional memory as well as the folks who know the law and compliance with the law

02:16:19and you know

02:16:21I was I left OMB in 2015 as I said and then went to the hill before I moved home and

02:16:26I was struck during the Trump administration when some colleagues of mine who were civil servants within

02:16:33OMB were raising alarm bells about

02:16:37Nefarious actions that were happening with politicals under the Trump administration and in fact months before the news broke

02:16:44I was hearing from folks that

02:16:47The politicals at OMB were trying to use apportionments to violate

02:16:52The Budget Control Act basically to withhold aid to Ukraine now

02:16:56There's probably no one in this room except for me and you and the staff sitting behind you that know what an apportionment is

02:17:03And that's because that's the institutional memory and functioning of how OMB releases funds that are appropriated by Congress

02:17:09So if we need any example of why we need a civil service

02:17:12How about following the law and making sure that no US president ever again can violate the law and withhold aid to a foreign

02:17:20Ally in its efforts to try to hold back an adversarial nation

02:17:25I mean, this is literally global democracy on the line. So I appreciate your service

02:17:31I appreciate the service of all of our colleagues and with that I yield back

02:17:35Generally yields and now for a closing statement. I recognize the ranking member

02:17:42For two minutes. Mr. Raskin

02:17:44Thank you. Very kindly. Mr. Chairman. I just want to clean up a couple of

02:17:49Matters that may be hung over from prior questioning one about project labor agreements

02:17:55Those are only for federal contracts and federal projects and they've been enormously successful in

02:18:02setting

02:18:04Wages and benefits for workers and creating good employer employee relations

02:18:10So for the life of me, I don't understand the nature of that attack

02:18:14I wanted to echo my distinguished colleague from New Mexico

02:18:19about this whole

02:18:21effort

02:18:23in the last administration and by a current candidate for president to basically

02:18:29Ravage the civil service by replacing

02:18:32professional civil servants and experts

02:18:35With political flunkies and to give another example the general lady gave the example what happened in Ukraine

02:18:39I want to give a closer a home example of what happened with Hurricane Dorian

02:18:44when the scientists at NOAA the National Oceanic and

02:18:49Atmospheric Administration at the National Weather Service made predictions about where the hurricane was going to hit

02:18:56on the East Coast and President Trump decided that the hurricane was really going to hit in Alabama and

02:19:04That was just contradicted by the facts and NOAA continued to put out

02:19:09Notices to the public saying no that Alabama was not

02:19:13At serious risk for being a target and it was going to be

02:19:16On the coast and much further south

02:19:19and then

02:19:21Trump got very mad about that and he got the Secretary of Commerce to go after them and so on

02:19:26and

02:19:28This is really what we're talking about. Do you want the federal government filled with a bunch of political flunkies?

02:19:35Hacks and sycophants who will say whatever the president wants or do you want?

02:19:40Professional scientists and civil servants who are going to follow facts and follow the law

02:19:45the president's job is to take care that the law is faithfully executed not that the law is

02:19:50disrupted and remain

02:19:52Remade in his own royal image

02:19:54And so if you want a government that is going to be letting Donald Trump in his Sharpie

02:20:00Determine where the hurricane is going to hit in as opposed to scientists then you would be for schedule F

02:20:05But we view schedule F as a serious danger to the professional civil service that's been built up

02:20:12over the last several decades, so

02:20:17The mr. Chairman, I mean, I've got some comments on some of the other things that were said

02:20:20But we agreed to just two minutes. So I'm happy to yield back to you. So

02:20:24Thank you. The gentleman yields and I recognize myself for two minutes on a closing

02:20:28I just going to talk about a couple issues one was raised by the gentlelady from Texas

02:20:33I'm talking about the national debt. Well, according to the US Treasury over the past 366 days total national debt has increased by 3.1 trillion dollars

02:20:43Held by the public debt held by the public is increased by 2.8 4 trillion and intergovernmental debt by 280

02:20:49Excuse me, 265 billion dollars over that same period of time

02:20:52I think that's important to go and I'll just say when you start talking about political junkies hacks and sycophants

02:20:59We don't want to see that yeah, I don't I don't disagree but you know where we see that

02:21:04In abundance on the border on the border and the people who are imposing the border security policy

02:21:11Which is why we have a wide open border

02:21:15Encouraged my colleagues to get down there as often as I do just down there again last week will be down there again next week

02:21:21So schedule F was mentioned earlier in the hearing and OPM recently issued a final rule

02:21:25Which seems like it was an attempt to prevent President Trump from reissuing schedule F. Should he win another term?

02:21:32Opponents of schedule F like to talk about politicization of the federal workforce, but from our perspective

02:21:37That has already happened and surely reports of federal employees organizing at the beginning of the last administration to plan how to block

02:21:45President Trump's policies have to be concerning they are to us

02:21:50The fact is certain federal employees have an ever-increasing amount of power to decide what does and does not happen with respect to an administration's

02:21:57policies

02:21:59earlier

02:22:00Telework was mentioned as an example of civil servants thinking they can do what they want

02:22:05An unaccountable civil service is just as dangerous to our country as a patronage system

02:22:09So with all that said

02:22:11We need something like schedule F to ensure the people we elect are able to do what they were elected to do and that's why

02:22:17We support schedule F. We've had a good hearing today appreciate

02:22:21You being here

02:22:23Director Miller. Thank you and appreciate

02:22:26All the members that came and those who came and sat in the gallery and the staff that helped with that. We're adjourned

House Oversight Committee Holds A Hearing On The Office Of Management And Budget

Category

Transcript

Recommended