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In this edition of Democratic Newsroom, the focus is on the series of fiery debates on Operation Sindoor that both Houses of Parliament witnessed for two days in the ongoing Monsoon session.
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00:00Good evening and welcome to yet another edition of the Democratic Newsroom.
00:20The last couple of days we've seen fiery debates on the floor of the House where Operation
00:24Sindhuur was concerned.
00:25So, who owned the Operation Sindhuur narrative?
00:29The jury is still out there, a lot of ramifications coming in, especially where international ramifications
00:36come into question, tariffs, there's still a debate going on in Parliament on that.
00:40So, who owned the Operation Sindhuur debate?
00:44We've got our editors to weigh in on it.
00:46I have with me Pranay, our editor, who also covers the Ministry of External Affairs very
00:51closely, Gaurav, as usual, one of the stars of the Democratic Newsroom, the superstar of
00:56the Democratic Newsroom, Rajdeep Sardasai and my colleague, Akshita.
01:01So, we all of you, all of us have come to you with our own perspective on how the debates
01:06panned out.
01:07Rajdeep, let's begin with you.
01:09You know, can I duck out for once?
01:10You know, if you're going to put the question as to who owned the debate, who won or lost,
01:15look, 26 lives were lost.
01:16Tragic, innocent lives were lost in a terrible, horrific terror attack.
01:21So, I'm a little reluctant to treat a debate on that as a win or lose, you know, like a
01:27cricket match.
01:27So, I'm going to duck out of that.
01:29What I will say, Parliament won.
01:31I think it's extremely important that Parliament remain a forum for debate because one of the
01:35problems, particularly in the last decade, has been the inability for Parliament to debate
01:41issues of urgent national importance.
01:43So, I'm glad the debate took place.
01:45I'm glad that so many people got a chance to speak.
01:48I wish I could also say that the people of the country won out.
01:52But I can't say that because the debate was classically hyper-partisan as most Parliament
01:57debates have gone on.
01:58If you listen to the government, they took zero accountability for what I believe was
02:04a terrible security lapse in Pahlkam.
02:07Put it in any way you want, it was a terrible security lapse and there was zero sense of
02:11accountability on part of the government.
02:13If you look at the opposition and their spokesperson, they were simply unwilling to accept that Narendra
02:19Modi's government has drawn a new red line in the sand vis-a-vis Pakistan.
02:22They've gone and targeted terrorist infrastructure deep into Punjab and thereby perhaps sent out
02:30a strong message to Pakistan that their nuclear blackmail will not do.
02:34I wish, therefore, there was more bipartisanship because as a citizen of this country, I want the truth.
02:41And I didn't get the truth, frankly, because people are so caught up in their hyper-polarized views.
02:46A government that refuses to take accountability for its failures and an opposition
02:52that simply will not even give credit, forget about the government, at least to the armed forces
02:57for some of the actions that they took in Pakistan.
03:00So, I, you know, in that sense, don't want to get into who owned the debate and who did not.
03:06I just wish we could see a greater willingness to accept weaknesses on one side and strengths on the other.
03:15So, okay.
03:16So, Rajdeep doesn't want to draw in the debate out into binaries of who won or who lost.
03:21Gaurav, how do you weigh in on it?
03:23India won.
03:24No two ways about it.
03:26Big victory for India at every level.
03:29India won.
03:30India block.
03:30India block is part of India.
03:32Absolutely.
03:33And that is exactly why I don't see it the way, you know, some may want to see it and so partisan.
03:38I am so proud.
03:40So, when our members of parliament went out, they went out as India speaking in one voice.
03:45That's what matters.
03:47Overseas, you speak in one voice.
03:48Internally, you may fight as much as you want to, but that also shows India's true strength
03:53or Bharat's true strength.
03:55That is, we are a very strong democracy.
03:58We will discuss and debate everything and so openly.
04:01Can this happen in Pakistan?
04:02Can this happen in China?
04:03Can this happen anywhere else?
04:04It's clearly not the way it happens here and that way India won.
04:08That is one part.
04:09How India won is this is the strongest possible action yet against Pakistan?
04:17Is it a line drawn in sand?
04:18No, it's a line drawn in stone.
04:21And how?
04:22Never have you hit 11 Pakistani air bases and radar stations.
04:27Never.
04:28Never have you hit Pakistan state-sponsored radical Islamist terror at its headquarters in
04:33Mureedke, in Bahawalpur, at Noor Khan, their command and control sector, you know, center.
04:38You haven't hit them in Mushaf, in Rafiki, in Jekhababad, from Skardu in Pakistan-occupied
04:43Jammu in Kashmir, down to Bolari in Sindh, to Melir cantonment in Karachi.
04:48The manner in which India was able to send across a message through made in India weapons
04:52and systems to a very large extent.
04:54That just goes on to show India has arrived on the world stage and even if countries like
04:59China and the US are not very happy about it, India will bomb Pakistan if it serves our
05:05purpose and teach terror a lesson.
05:08Internally, accountability.
05:09Of course, we need accountability.
05:11We've needed accountability in our country as we've been debating right from 1947.
05:16Why did we lose POK?
05:18Why did we lose Aksai Chin?
05:20And why did we lose, you know, so much of our territory?
05:23Of course, we need accountability.
05:25We need it now.
05:26We needed it then.
05:27Pranay, you want to quickly, your two cents.
05:30You know, I think there is a classic challenge as far as India's narrative selling exercise
05:35is concerned.
05:36You know, whatever happened in parliament that was largely reduced to the partisan issues,
05:41which is an obvious thing, as Rajdeep mentioned, because it was all a sling match to score
05:45brownie points to enter their own constituents.
05:47But having said that, the larger issue remains that I completely agree with Gaurav on the
05:52count that we have successfully carried out an operation.
05:54But how did we sell our story?
05:56I think somewhere there has been some problems, some challenges in our storytelling, the way
06:00we sold our story and that the narrative conflict remained there.
06:03How Pakistani knew that they sold that notion of victory.
06:07Well, and somewhere due to our systemic issue, and that is also part of being a democracy as
06:12well, that you have your own system, checks and balances.
06:15You weigh your statement and you become late in putting out your statement.
06:19Otherwise, it would have been very easy for the government to give out so-called selectively
06:23to journalists and sell the story that Pakistan has asked for the truce.
06:27Pakistan has asked for a ceasefire.
06:29Why to let Donald Trump to tweet it first?
06:32There we lost.
06:33And right from the admission about the losses in a military operation, which is a very obvious
06:37thing.
06:38Nobody expects you not to lose.
06:40But the admission, since the government didn't admit it in as many terms, that remained a problem
06:45in which problem, the same problem you saw in the parliament debate as well.
06:49So that remained a problem.
06:50You know, who won?
06:52Who didn't win?
06:53Everyone has its own perspective.
06:54Government will always go back to the issues of history, like from 47 onward, what has happened,
06:59who conceded what and what counts.
07:01But still, these are the issues.
07:03And as far as the Operation Sindhu is concerned, yes, definitely we carried out an operation
07:06very successfully.
07:07We sent out a political-military message.
07:09Whether it will have some impact, a future impact in terms of Pakistan being resisting
07:14not to carry out any terror attack, we are yet to see.
07:16We do not know whether there will be another terror attack or not.
07:20And whether we will escalate it to, in terms of war, yet to be tested that statement.
07:24But still, on narrative, internationally also, we lack somewhere in selling our story.
07:32And that is a thing which we need to review and ponder and think upon for any future operation.
07:37Achyut, then go ahead.
07:38Well, largely going into the debate, I wanted only one answer essentially from the government,
07:43which was on all of the questions about Trump constantly raising the issue of mediation.
07:48And I think on that front, you had even the Prime Minister kind of clarifying that there
07:52was no intervention whatsoever from any world leader and detailing for us the exact timeline.
07:57We've heard it repeatedly.
07:58We've heard it from the MEA.
08:00We've heard it from Dr. Jay Shankar himself previously.
08:03But I think the fact that it came from the Prime Minister kind of spelt it down.
08:07There was a lot of focus on it.
08:08Of course, Rahul Gandhi's speech was largely on that, saying, why isn't Prime Minister Modi
08:12calling out Trump to be a liar, which is, to me, far-fetched.
08:15You can't expect the Prime Minister on the floor of the House to call the US President a liar.
08:20But I think what Prime Minister Modi spoke of, giving the exact sequence of events,
08:25to me kind of answered the question about whether the US mediated or not.
08:29Yes, you're talking of narratives, Pranay.
08:30Yes, we're talking about, you know, who won the narrative war on social media,
08:34with articles and whatnot.
08:35But I think as far as setting the record straight on the one issue of America constantly,
08:40and Trump constantly saying it, 24 hours after that debate,
08:43with the kind of comments that he's made on tariffs,
08:46with the kind of things that he said about India being a dead economy,
08:48I think now it's very clear, really, what India's stand was, was really what happened.
08:53I don't think the record has been set straight at all.
08:56There is no record set straight.
08:59The fact is that it's very clear that, and this was admitted by the government,
09:04that there was a long conversation with the US Vice President Vance.
09:06We all know that the role the Secretary of State Rubio has played behind the scenes.
09:10The government, obviously, for obvious reasons, cannot reveal the exact details of it.
09:14But let's be clear, we don't know the exact extent of the American mediation,
09:19and which took place to try and bring both sides to ceasefire.
09:23How could you like to be honest?
09:24No, no, no, fact is, fact is government is...
09:27What do you think the government should have answered?
09:27No, no, I'm saying government, no, as I said,
09:29there are certain details the government cannot reveal in public domain,
09:33but to suggest that the government has clarified the issue once and for all,
09:37that's not true.
09:38In fact, even as the debate was going on,
09:40Donald Trump is still claiming credit for ceasefire.
09:41No, he can claim it.
09:43One minute, who do you believe?
09:45Who do you believe?
09:46The Prime Minister of this country in parliament or a Donald Trump,
09:50who has a history of being ignored.
09:51I believe as always the truth is somewhere in between.
09:57The truth is that the Americans certainly played a particular role.
10:00The very fact that the US Vice President was on the line constantly making those comments
10:05which have now come on record about the nature of conversation.
10:08Which everybody does.
10:09Suggest clearly.
10:11Not for the first time today.
10:13Look, I am not saying that, you see Donald Trump says I take credit for the ceasefire.
10:17Therefore, I think that's an extreme position for India to say that America,
10:21there was no American pressure, there was no American mediation
10:24is also according to me from the sequence of events clearly not true.
10:27The truth is often lies in between.
10:29It's also very clear that not just the Americans, there were other countries involved.
10:32Saudi Arabia's name is coming out.
10:34Therefore, as I said, I said at the very outset,
10:37the government still doesn't want to reveal the entire truth of both what happened
10:42in terms of the security lapses that led to Belgium
10:45as well as what eventually led to ceasefire.
10:48What's the biggest headline?
10:50Hold on, Rajiv.
10:51What is the big thing?
10:54Whether Trump called up Modi or whether Vance called up Modi
10:57or whether the Pakistani DGMO said
11:00bohat ho gaya, ab ceasefire karte hai.
11:02No, I still am not.
11:03Just a minute, sir.
11:04What is important?
11:05You know far more about military matters.
11:06I still am as purely as again someone observing it from the outside
11:11but still mystified by the fact that India so suddenly on that 10th evening
11:16decided to accept ceasefire.
11:18But the Prime Minister has explained it.
11:20No, no, the Prime Minister has not explained it.
11:22Yes, he has.
11:23He has not.
11:23Not just the Prime Minister.
11:24I don't believe again that this is some kind of a cricket match where I can give ball by ball commentary.
11:36The government cannot give that.
11:37However, I do believe that there are certain issues that still remain tangled
11:41in some kind of a cloud which were not answered by this debate
11:45perhaps because you can't openly say something.
11:48It would embarrass other world capitals if you were to tell your parliament
11:53what actually happened behind the scenes.
11:55So, permit me.
11:55Hold on, hold on.
11:56That's all I'm saying.
11:57Okay, let Gwana go first and then I'll get my two cents in.
12:00Permit me just to tell you the sequence of events
12:03in terms of what the government has said on record in parliament
12:06and not just what sources had initially told Pranay and I
12:09and you know journalists on the defence in the external affairs ministry beat.
12:12It was very clear from the word go.
12:15India's aim.
12:16As some say, Kashmir why not took POK?
12:19That was not the aim.
12:20In any war there is a aim and you achieve that aim.
12:23So, POK in this operation was not the aim.
12:26Point one.
12:27Point two.
12:28Why did you ceasefire?
12:29What was the aim of India's government?
12:31Government of India's stated aim.
12:33Not even a secret aim.
12:34Stated aim.
12:35We will punish terror for the first time ever
12:37including in Bahawalpur and Mureedke.
12:40That aim was achieved.
12:41Then our DGMO calls up the Pakistani DGMO
12:44and tells him,
12:45Do not escalate.
12:47Our measures are non-escalatory.
12:48In fact, Pakistan should have thanked India for targeting terrorists.
12:51They said,
12:51No, you have to attack us.
12:53What exposes Pakistan?
12:55Again, a big takeaway
12:56is this marriage between terrorists and Pakistan army
12:59which was out in the open
13:00with the pictures of the terrorist army at the funeral.
13:03Point two.
13:03Point three.
13:04Pakistan tried to target our military installations.
13:06In response,
13:08India targeted
13:08and said,
13:10You stop.
13:11We stop.
13:12We will fire the last bullet.
13:14It cannot be clearer as day.
13:16So, when Pakistan said,
13:17Okay, we are stopping.
13:19Government of India stopped.
13:20My take is,
13:21my personal take,
13:22we still should have hit them more.
13:24But then you see,
13:25if you have to become the fourth largest economy
13:27and the third largest economy,
13:29then you also have to ensure
13:30that like after that,
13:33you know,
13:33parliament attack
13:34and when Operation Parakram happened,
13:37world capital started withdrawing their ambassadors from India
13:40and mounting pressure in India.
13:41And despite a Kaluchat massacre,
13:43we could do nothing.
13:44So, at least government of India,
13:45some people learn from past experiences
13:47and don't repeat their mistakes.
13:49You know,
13:49I just want to get two cents in
13:51because firstly,
13:53I do think
13:53one needs to reflect a little more
13:55on the lapses that took place,
13:58right?
13:58Where Pehal Gang was concerned
13:59and the accountability.
14:01Has accountability been fixed?
14:02No,
14:03accountability has not been fixed.
14:04No,
14:04big no.
14:05I agree with that.
14:06Completely.
14:06So,
14:07where Operation Sindhuur is concerned,
14:09nobody is debating
14:10whether it was a success or not.
14:11It was a success.
14:12Has accountability been fixed?
14:14No.
14:14So,
14:15when you are looking at it
14:16in terms of politics
14:17and what happened on the floor of the House
14:19and I'm just gauging
14:20between the debates
14:21and I'm taking off
14:22what I thought was credible
14:23from the Treasury benches
14:24and what I thought was credible
14:25from the opposition.
14:26I think
14:27it's fair
14:28to ask that
14:29after 26-11
14:30if the Chief Minister of Maharashtra
14:32if the Home Minister of the country
14:33could tender in their resignation,
14:36what happens now?
14:37Where is the accountability?
14:39I don't know who's responsible
14:40for Pehal Gang terror attack.
14:42Number one.
14:43Number two,
14:43I completely...
14:44Pakistan is responsible
14:45for Pehal Gang terror attack.
14:47Accountable.
14:48Accountable.
14:49Allow me to finish.
14:50Allow me to finish, Gaurav.
14:51So,
14:52accountable.
14:52Who's accountable?
14:53Is somebody from India accountable?
14:54Who's accountable?
14:55Right?
14:55Somebody needs to take accountability
14:57like in the past.
14:58It has happened.
14:59Number one.
14:59Number two.
15:00Did that accountability
15:00make India safer
15:01from Pakistan?
15:01One second.
15:02You need to take accountability.
15:05That's it.
15:06Number one.
15:06Number two,
15:07what I feel is
15:07I don't think that
15:08the Prime Minister of the country
15:09should have stood up
15:10in Parliament
15:10and said
15:12Trump is a liar.
15:13I think there are
15:13certain diplomatic exigencies
15:15and that need to be followed
15:16which in the manner
15:18in which way he addressed
15:19that no leader
15:20called and stopped
15:21the operation
15:22was credible.
15:23It's something I take off
15:23the treasury benches.
15:25Number three,
15:26I am a little sick and tired
15:28right now
15:29of everything being Nehru's fault.
15:31I want to know
15:31what was our fault,
15:33where we went down,
15:34who's responsible,
15:35why there were no forces
15:36in Pehal Gang.
15:37I know it by heart
15:39what Nehru's fault was
15:40and believe me,
15:41I do know what the Congress's fault is
15:42because my father
15:43had fought the Haji Peer battle.
15:45So I know
15:46when Haji Peer was given back.
15:47I want to know what now.
15:48Allow me to finish.
15:49Let me just,
15:50you know,
15:50allow me to finish.
15:51Lastly,
15:52like you said,
15:53Gaurav,
15:53that this is the,
15:54and I could agree with you
15:55because one of the best
15:57defensive,
15:59you know,
15:59army,
16:00air force,
16:01navy defense
16:02that we have ever built
16:03against Pakistan,
16:04a cohesive coming together
16:05of an attack.
16:06Great.
16:07I would want,
16:08I am,
16:09I am agreeable
16:10at every count,
16:11right,
16:11where you,
16:12you know,
16:12with whatever you say.
16:13I want a very basic understanding
16:15who are my heroes today?
16:16Who is going to get
16:17the weir chakra?
16:18Who am I celebrating?
16:19Am I celebrating
16:19the prime minister?
16:20Am I celebrating
16:21the home minister?
16:22Am I celebrating
16:23the defense minister?
16:24Am I celebrating
16:24the minister of external affairs?
16:26I want to know,
16:27I want to know,
16:28I want to know
16:29who said Dil Mange more.
16:30I want to know
16:31who's my,
16:32wait for the next
16:33Republican day,
16:33why should I?
16:35I want to know,
16:37it's not the protocol
16:38that you covered Kargil.
16:40Of course I covered Kargil.
16:41I was in school,
16:41we knew exactly,
16:43did we,
16:43oh,
16:43by the way,
16:44our pilot who fell,
16:45who fell during Bala court?
16:48Yeah?
16:49Abhin Randan?
16:50We found out when?
16:52His medal you found out,
16:53you want to know
16:53any word of medal?
16:54One second,
16:55there is a system in India,
16:56I must clarify this point,
16:58you permit me to clarify this point.
16:59Allow me to finish.
17:00You made a point
17:00and let me clarify,
17:01let me just clarify this one point.
17:03I was in school,
17:04Gauru,
17:04when you were covering Kargil,
17:06all,
17:06and some of these boys
17:07were from my school.
17:08Yes.
17:09The day,
17:10the day,
17:10Nair died,
17:11Captain Nair died,
17:13it was announced in my school
17:14the next day.
17:14Okay.
17:15The next day.
17:15But his medal wasn't announced.
17:17His medal wasn't announced
17:20the same day.
17:20Dil Mange more was reported
17:21two days after it happened.
17:23Okay.
17:23It's been now how many months?
17:25I don't know who my heroes are.
17:26And I think as an ex-army officer's daughter
17:28who's fought two wars,
17:30I need to know
17:31who are my heroes.
17:32I wish you had seen
17:33some of my reporting
17:34because I was reporting
17:35from the front lines
17:36and we had this young lady officer
17:39who was at that air defense gun,
17:40who was the one
17:41who was shooting down
17:42the Yihad drones
17:43and she was on India Today.
17:44And we had like a whole group
17:46of India Today reporters
17:47who were in Jammu,
17:48who were in Kashmir,
17:49if at all we have a jet down.
17:54If at all we have a jet down.
17:56Do I know
17:56who is my hero who's injured?
17:58Who do I have to pray for tonight?
18:00Okay.
18:01Once Preeti has raised a point.
18:02No, hold on.
18:03Hold on.
18:04No, no, one minute.
18:04Hold on.
18:05Hold on.
18:05You're not letting me complete my point.
18:07Raktit, Raktit, 30 seconds.
18:09Allow him and I'll come to you.
18:09Preeti raised a point
18:10who's got a veer chakra
18:11and who's getting a veer chakra.
18:14That is not,
18:15we are not Pakistan
18:15that a Nishane Heather
18:17is printed or is given to
18:18or a Nishane.
18:19We are also not a Pakistan
18:20who doesn't own their men.
18:22You're not letting me complete
18:23your point.
18:24Was given a medal
18:25the very next day
18:26General Kurila
18:26for saying Pakistan fights with us.
18:28In our country
18:29there is a protocol
18:30and I wish everyone
18:31knows that protocol.
18:33I know it as well as you.
18:35I'm sorry.
18:36Gallantry awards are only enough.
18:36I know it as well as you.
18:38Then you shouldn't have asked
18:39that question.
18:39I know who my heroes are.
18:40I knew who Vikram Batra was
18:42before Vikram Batra was
18:43before Vikram Batra was
18:46given a gallantry award.
18:47So let's not get this.
18:47Gallantry awards are only announced
18:48either on Republic Day
18:50or on Independence Day.
18:53That's the only time
18:54Gallantry awards are announced.
18:55There is a difference in Martans
18:55and the operational guys.
18:57Those who are in operation
18:58right now.
18:59You definitely will get to know
19:01just go to the Air Force
19:02Day Parade
19:03and you will get to know
19:03the commendation cards.
19:04One second.
19:04Come on.
19:05Okay.
19:05Let's not get into it.
19:06I don't want to get into it
19:07because then it will be like
19:08I'm holding it.
19:08Go ahead.
19:09I just think I should get that
19:10when 16 hour debate
19:13since the topic was
19:14on parliament debate
19:1516 hours in Lok Sabha
19:1616 hours in Rajya Sabha
19:18as a citizen of this country
19:21I want to know much more
19:23about what happened
19:24about events
19:25that led to Pahlkam
19:26and what happened
19:28during Operation Sindhul.
19:30My sense was
19:31as always
19:31this debate got tangled
19:33in domestic politics.
19:34The Prime Minister
19:34of the country
19:35speaks for 102 minutes
19:36and mentions Jawaharlal Nehru
19:3814 times.
19:39That's once every 7 minutes.
19:41I don't want to know
19:42frankly
19:43about Nehru's mistakes anymore.
19:45They've been told to me
19:46now umpteen times
19:47in the last decade.
19:48We're still paying the price.
19:48No one minute.
19:49One minute.
19:49We're still paying the price for it.
19:50This debate
19:51this debate
19:52was about context.
19:52No one minute.
19:53There is no context
19:54between operating
19:55I'll come to Ashita after Rajya.
19:55Because you need to know
19:56the present
19:57you need to understand
19:58our past.
19:58Okay.
19:59Okay.
19:59I want
19:59if you need to know
20:01the present
20:01you need to understand
20:02the past.
20:03We'll give it for a moment
20:04but that's a fact.
20:05No no one minute.
20:06In a 102 minute speech
20:07I want to know
20:08whether the actions
20:09that we've taken
20:10in Sindhul
20:11have worked
20:11as an effective deterrent
20:12in the mind
20:13of the government
20:14against Pakistan.
20:15Pakistan
20:15whose general
20:16has been elevated
20:17to field marshal
20:18that field marshal
20:19has gone
20:19one minute
20:20now you must
20:21let me complete.
20:22I allowed you sir
20:23to complete.
20:23The field marshal
20:25has gone
20:26and lunched
20:26with the president
20:27of the United States.
20:29America has said
20:29that Pakistan
20:30is an important
20:31bulwark
20:31for regional security.
20:33Pakistan has become
20:34a core chair
20:35of a counter-terrorism
20:36committee.
20:37I am
20:37as I said
20:38at the outset
20:39I salute
20:39the bravery
20:40of our forces
20:41which went
20:41and targeted
20:42in very precise
20:43manners
20:43terror infrastructure.
20:45But do I know
20:46whether the attacks
20:47that have taken place
20:48have actually
20:49deterred Pakistan?
20:50I don't.
20:51Our government
20:52says blood and water
20:53can't go together.
20:54The government
20:54then has obviously
20:56green-lighted
20:57India's decision
20:57to play the Asia Cup
20:59against Pakistan.
21:00I want to know
21:00what is the government's
21:01policy towards Pakistan.
21:03I want to also know
21:04whether
21:05as the opposition
21:06is claiming
21:07as Rahul Gandhi
21:07has listed out
21:08that there were
21:09certain chinks
21:09in our
21:10in what happened
21:12on the first night
21:13whether that
21:14fusion of Chinese
21:15and Pakistani
21:16military on one side
21:18and perhaps
21:18certain weaknesses
21:20that came up
21:21in our air power
21:23do you want
21:24to talk about them?
21:25If you don't want
21:25to talk about them
21:26in parliament
21:27at least talk about it
21:28behind closed doors.
21:29I just want
21:30as a citizen
21:31I want more information.
21:34I found this debate
21:35tangled once again
21:36in domestic politics.
21:38You know what
21:38Nehru did.
21:39You know what
21:40Rajiv did.
21:41You know what
21:41Indira did.
21:42Why do I want to know
21:43that I am in 2025?
21:45Because we need to know
21:46what happened in the past
21:47to understand the current situation
21:48Rajiv be okay
21:49for that example.
21:50Be okay.
21:50There are many people
21:51who are listening to it
21:52for the first time
21:53who need to be educated
21:54about that.
21:54What did the Prime Minister
21:55not cover?
21:56He spoke about
21:56whether we're globally
21:57supported or isolated.
21:58He said out of 193 nations
22:00only three stood with Pakistan
22:02all the rest with us.
22:03Not one country
22:03not one world leader
22:04as he said
22:05intervened or told us
22:07stop Operation Sindur.
22:08So he's highlighted
22:09that for you.
22:10The issue of
22:11what kind of action
22:11we're taking against Pakistan
22:12the External Affairs
22:14Minister Dr. S. Jai Shankar
22:15went into great detail
22:16about that
22:17about diplomatically
22:17how we've cracked the whip
22:18on Pakistan.
22:19Home Minister Amit Shah
22:20has spoken about
22:21how we've cracked down
22:22on terror in Pakistan
22:23and ensured that
22:24there's a deterrent.
22:25Prime Minister Modi
22:26also spoke about it
22:27about the Indus Waters Treaty
22:28like you said.
22:29So it's very clear
22:30it's been mapped out
22:30by the Home Minister
22:31by the External Affairs Minister
22:33by the Prime Minister.
22:34In a 100 minute speech
22:36if Prime Minister Modi
22:36has spoken about
22:37all of these issues
22:38including mediation
22:39including Nehru
22:40what is the issue?
22:41He's also putting in context
22:42what is the problem?
22:4314 times Jawala Nehru
22:45102 minutes of heat.
22:46What has happened?
22:47How do we not have POKs?
22:48Because of Nehru.
22:49There is a reason
22:50why Nehru has been
22:50Sorry?
22:51POK.
22:52No we've got
22:52you're not going to tell me
22:54that all India's problems
22:56in 2025
22:57are linked to Jawala Nehru
22:59died in 1964.
23:00There have been 13
23:01Prime Ministers
23:02since Nehru died.
23:03For God's sake.
23:04No no but Rajdeep
23:05the problem remains.
23:06He was responding.
23:07Prime Minister was responding
23:08to the questions raised
23:08by the opposition benches
23:10especially on the
23:11opposition raised Nehru?
23:12No opposition raised
23:13the why did it happen?
23:15Why didn't you go
23:15and take POK?
23:17So to which
23:18initially Home Minister
23:19responded and thereafter
23:20Prime Minister responded.
23:21He said that
23:21who created POK?
23:23We did not create POK.
23:24We got POK as a legacy
23:25and that's why
23:26the issue of POK comes.
23:28Whether we will be able
23:29to take POK or not
23:30nobody knows
23:30and that has its own cost.
23:32But coming back to the point
23:33I completely agree
23:34to Preeti
23:35you know with Preeti
23:36on this count
23:37that there are two issues of it.
23:39Why did it happen?
23:40What are the lapses?
23:41We need to account
23:42to hold someone
23:43accountable for that
23:44because these have
23:45been a repeated issue.
23:46Uri happened,
23:47Pahlgaam,
23:47Pathankot happened.
23:48Many terror attacks happened
23:50and this remain
23:50a systemic issue
23:51as far as our things
23:52are concerned
23:53that we need
23:54to have some checks.
23:55So accountability
23:56need to fix
23:57and people should know
23:58that who failed
23:59and how did it fail.
24:01So that remains.
24:02Government was heavily
24:03focused not on failure
24:05but on the success
24:05of Operation Sindhu.
24:07Like Pahlgaam
24:07and Operation Sindhu.
24:08Operation Sindhu
24:09was subsequent to Pahlgaam.
24:11What?
24:11About two minutes left.
24:12Express one minute
24:13Gaurav and then Rajdeep
24:14one minute.
24:14You cannot distance
24:16Pahlgaam from Jindhu.
24:18When everybody else
24:18speaks there is no interruption.
24:20I want no interruption.
24:21No one was interrupting you today.
24:24Let's keep one thing
24:24very clear.
24:25Will there be
24:26another terror attack?
24:27We cannot second guess
24:28what a radical
24:29Islamist terrorist
24:29like Hafiz Saeed
24:30and Asim Munir
24:32are thinking.
24:33They may want to
24:34launch another attack.
24:35Fine.
24:35They will.
24:36Will there be consequences?
24:37Each time
24:39if you go by history
24:40after 2016
24:41there was a surgical strike.
24:43After Pulwama
24:44there was Balakot
24:45and after Pahlgaam
24:47there was Sindhu.
24:48Each time
24:48there is massive escalation
24:50and massive costs
24:51for Pakistan to pay.
24:53Some of their airfields
24:54are still not operational.
24:55Their air defense system
24:55is still not operational.
24:57Now there is a template
24:58to punish Pakistan
24:59state sponsored
25:00radical Islamist terror.
25:01Point one.
25:02Point two
25:02if America is calling him
25:04America has its vested interest.
25:05Now America is not tied
25:07to our hip.
25:08We cannot decide
25:09what American foreign policy
25:10will be.
25:11But we can decide
25:12how best our foreign policy
25:13is served
25:14and that's exactly
25:15what appears to be happening.
25:17You know all that talk
25:18Trump has ceased fire
25:19the way Trump is sulking today
25:21it's very clear
25:23he was unable to get
25:24what he wants
25:24because he said
25:25there is a trade deal
25:26there is a trade deal
25:28for a cease fire.
25:29There is still no trade deal
25:30and he is talking about
25:31additional tariff
25:32and that very clearly shows
25:33Trump is in trouble.
25:34Make your point quick.
25:35No look
25:36as I said
25:37I have welcomed the idea
25:38of a 32 hour debate
25:4016 hours in each house
25:41I want to see more of it.
25:43I want to hopefully see
25:44less partisanship
25:46less polarization
25:47more evidentiary based debates
25:50more debates
25:51where both sides
25:52are willing to take
25:53the tough questions.
25:55I don't want to see rhetoric.
25:56I in fact thought
25:57in the first half an hour
25:58the Prime Minister
25:58answered many of the questions
26:00that had been raised
26:01by the opposition
26:02and then suddenly
26:03went into
26:04once again
26:06into the domestic politics
26:07trying to score
26:08points over the other
26:09and I saw the same thing
26:10from the opposition.
26:11There was a lot
26:11that Rahul Gandhi said
26:12which I think
26:13sounded extremely coherent
26:15because he tried
26:16to actually speak
26:17about strategic issues
26:18which is very rare
26:19for a politician
26:20to speak
26:21but then again
26:22you want to
26:22score a point
26:24by saying
26:24I want the Prime Minister
26:25to tell me
26:26whether Trump
26:27lied on the floor of Parliament.
26:28You don't need to do that.
26:30I think my problem is
26:31debates of this nature
26:32on a very sensitive issue.
26:34Remember the opposition
26:34was in a bit of a trap
26:36because the moment
26:37they questioned the government
26:38they would be accused
26:38of being anti-national.
26:39That's what
26:40the government
26:41has to take India first.
26:42Unfortunately
26:43debates on defense
26:48tend to get into that trap.
26:49Unfortunately
26:49the time is over
26:51we haven't closed this debate.
26:52One second
26:53whose speech
26:54was your favorite
26:55and so many more voices.
27:23It should have been
27:24a longer debate.
27:25It should have been
27:25a brilliant point.
27:26One thing we realized
27:26it should have been
27:27a longer debate.
27:28I think something
27:28we all disagree on
27:30a fair bit.
27:31What we do agree on
27:32is that it was a bit
27:33of give and take.
27:35I love the way
27:36the opposition
27:36and the government
27:37came together
27:37in leading delegations
27:39overseas.
27:39We leave it at that.
27:40Thank you for joining us.
27:42I wish at the end of it
27:42there was a common resolution.
27:43Thank you for joining us.
27:44Up next is to the point.
27:45Stay tuned for the debate.
27:46There was a common joint resolution
27:46at the end of it
27:47like there was in Pi.
27:48It's over.
27:49The show is over.
27:54The show is over.
27:55The show is over.
27:56The show is over.
27:57The show is over.
27:58The show is over.
27:59The show is over.
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28:07The show is over.
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28:12The show is over.
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28:14The show is over.
28:15The show is over.
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28:17The show is over.
28:18The show is over.
28:19The show is over.