- yesterday
A discussion highlights the stark reality for women in India's corporate sector, where they make up only 18% of the workforce in top NSE-listed companies. A woman leader recounted her early career in the late 90s, where she was told the company 'don't hire girls' and faced a lack of basic facilities like restrooms and proper safety gear in a factory setting. Another speaker addressed the issue of tokenism on corporate boards, suggesting that having three or more women in a group forms a cohort, whereas one is mere tokenism. The conversation delved into unconscious biases in hiring, noting that women's resumes are scrutinised for marital status more often than men's. The speakers emphasised that while policies like flexi-working exist, they can lead to subtle penalties and that a fundamental mindset shift, beyond just policy changes, is crucial for true gender equity in the workplace.
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00:00So we have spoken about sports, cinema, now this is about women at work.
00:08Women today comprise only 18% of the workforce in the top 2000 NSC listed companies.
00:1818% only.
00:21And these are the companies that have the wherewithal and the means to invest in diversity.
00:30In fact, gender, equity, diversity, inclusion is not a checklist for them.
00:36It's a boardroom agenda.
00:38Despite this, the needle isn't moving.
00:42We have leaders here to talk about this and more.
00:46So welcome.
00:47Sushmita, you have a very long career.
00:52You are a women leader, but you started in STEM as a chemical engineer.
00:58So can you talk to us about what was the journey like when you started as a young management trainee or an intern in a factory?
01:09So what was the experience like?
01:11And do you also think that as you grew in your career, took on middle manager, now senior management positions, have the biases or have we evolved as a society?
01:26Good evening, everybody.
01:28And thank you, Sonal, for the question.
01:31In fact, before I answer how I started, I'll talk to you about a brief about, you know, how the whole thing happened, even how I got even placed.
01:43So when you do your BTEC and in chemical engineering or any BTEC, you have a summer trainee in the third year.
01:52So during the summer trainee, we were only two girls who were getting training from a huge British multinational, more than 100 years old in India.
02:07And we were working very well and we were enjoying our stint as summer trainees.
02:14And we were the only girls in the campus, in the manufacturing unit, which was in the outskirts of Calcutta.
02:21I come from Calcutta.
02:23So we were towards the close of the training.
02:27And we also, I mean, the inquisitive us, we were asking that, you know, we did a good stint, our project was good.
02:36Why don't you place us here?
02:39So the information that we got, what we were told, is that we don't hire girls.
02:45So I went up to the head of the department and thankfully he gave me five minutes to speak.
02:55And I asked that, you know, do you hire talent or do you hire gender?
03:00And that started the conversation.
03:04In fact, a year later, when I was preparing for my finals, I got a call at home that come for an interview.
03:12And we were interviewed by the top most authority, the MD of the company.
03:18Why?
03:19Because they were taking a risk.
03:21They were thinking of hiring women.
03:24And I'm talking when I was 20 year old at that time.
03:28And we went through the interview, we were selected and got placed.
03:33And you know, when you talk about the environment, it was a male dominated environment.
03:39Because in a, I'm talking about a paint industry.
03:42In the shop floor, there were only operators, all men.
03:46The entire campus had men.
03:49The only one lady who was there was in the admin, the administration, who was also an assistant to the head there.
03:59There were no restrooms.
04:03In fact, when you are in a manufacturing setup, you have to wear personal protective equipment, the safety gear.
04:11There was no safety gear for women.
04:14So I remember, I did a stint for a year in the factory.
04:19And I had to wear size 7 shoes.
04:21Because the safety shoes, the minimum size was size 7.
04:25I'm a size 6.
04:27So that was the, you know.
04:30And in terms of the washroom, to use a washroom, as I said, the only lady was in the admin department, which was about one kilometer away from the location we were there inside the factory.
04:44So to use the washroom, you had to walk one kilometer.
04:48We used to time our washroom breaks because that was our canteen for food.
04:53So to put it simply, you know, you have to control how much water or anything, fluids you drink because you have to use the washroom.
05:03So I'm talking about those situations.
05:06But then I'm very thankful that, you know, they gave us the opportunity because we were the first.
05:12And the questions were also about physical ability.
05:15Will they be able to do the work?
05:17The commitment, are they committed?
05:19It was not about capability.
05:21It was about physical ability, commitment and stability.
05:26What if you get married tomorrow?
05:28What if you start a family?
05:29So those were the questions which we were asked when all we were looking for was to be treated as humans with talent.
05:40So that was my experience.
05:42But I'm happy that I started because from ours was the first batch.
05:47And I'm talking about late 90s that they started hiring women and they used to come for campus.
05:53And the next batch and the next batch, it was like a gate opening and women, they started hiring women.
05:59So I'm very proud that I took up the step and had that five minute.
06:04He gave me an audience time of five minutes.
06:07I could go speak.
06:08And the doors opened for my, for more women in that organization.
06:14Today, I see a lot of change.
06:16MNCs, Metro cities, a lot of change is happening in this space.
06:21It's much more inclusive.
06:24You know, there are a lot of initiatives in the DEI space, which we talk about.
06:28So there are a lot of stuff which is happening and the world is changing today.
06:33And thankfully it is because 50% of the population is women.
06:37So 50% of the talent is also there.
06:39And if you don't hire, you lose out.
06:42Yes, we all know that, but it doesn't really work that way, does it?
06:46So Kanika, you know, we heard from Sushmita about her experience very early on in her career.
06:54You are an independent women director on boards of many, many companies, right?
06:59And in fact, today 97% of the companies have women board director.
07:06So, and of course, I mean, thanks to the regulation that we have such great numbers on that front.
07:14But is it, has that also led to any change or is it still tokenism?
07:22What is your take on it?
07:25It is, firstly, thank you so much.
07:29And thank you so much for India today to make this thing happen.
07:33And I have to congratulate on one thing.
07:35It's like, I've been seeing the delegate tags, which have got these beads on it.
07:39A small touch, who's ever thought about it? Phenomenal.
07:42Phenomenal.
07:43Really great.
07:44And yeah, being on the board of companies and being the, I mean, you've seen my introduction,
07:53woman director.
07:54And the point of writing that was, yes, it's mandated.
07:58The government is saying and all of us are talking about, we need more women in the workforce.
08:03And yes, a mandate came through.
08:05I was the beneficiary of that mandate to some extent, saying, I'm actually on boards of companies
08:11where I'm neither the founder nor it belongs to a family.
08:14And truly, as a professional, I've come onto these boards.
08:17What does it mean to be in these places?
08:20I mean, for any one of us who's been a professional, you are now at the top group of an organization
08:26and you are in the decision-making group.
08:29Do you actually have a voice?
08:32Are you actually driving those decisions?
08:35Or is it because it's a compliance and it has happened?
08:39My response is that it varies.
08:42It varies from companies to companies.
08:44Some companies really want you to be there and they look at you as Sushmita said, as humans,
08:49and they want you to participate and really take your word and your knowledge.
08:53And that's where they've gotten.
08:55But in India, a dominant amount of companies are still looking at you as that gender,
09:01who's sitting there, who needs to be there.
09:04Research says and study says that when you have one person, one lady,
09:09who's sitting on a board or in any group, that's tokenism.
09:13When you put two women in a group, that means they're going to compete with each other.
09:18And then you put three women in a group, then that forms a cluster and then that becomes a cohort.
09:29So something to think about as you guys are thinking about building your teams.
09:34Is it that can you try and put three teams, three people in a group and try and put that structure together?
09:40Being at the boards, being at a place when you've got a seat on the table, it's hard to find your own voice at the first place.
09:50You have to work at an individual level very hard to find your voice.
09:55Yes, one person on the board often lands up to be tokenism.
09:59But it is you, your responsibility, it is me, my responsibility to convert and make something out of it and be patient.
10:06It will form an agenda.
10:07And it has taken me a lot of time to learn and change my own self and be those allies.
10:15So while getting on the board is a first step, it is just the beginning.
10:21We as women have to support each other.
10:24And there's a lot of awareness generation and education that needs to happen.
10:27I've been on boards in situations when people have told me,
10:30Madam, bohat ho gaya, ab bas, aisa bhi hota hai.
10:35Aise bhi conversations mein bola jata hai.
10:38But you've got a seat on the table, use it.
10:42So, yeah.
10:45Sushmita, before I come to you, I'm going to ask Kanika the second question.
10:48I'm hearing a lot of bias, right?
10:50Subconscious bias, unconscious bias.
10:53So, how do you, how, I mean, so very early on in your career, it's also very difficult.
10:58You also don't know ki mere saath aisa ho raha hai, ya ho sakta hai, ya kyun ho raha hai, right?
11:05So, how do you see that bias gets normalized in a workplace, right?
11:11And also, how to deal with it?
11:14How did you learn to deal with it?
11:17Oh, I mean, we are speaking and smiling here, but I mean, I'm sure it wasn't the case when…
11:23I mean, when we learned about it ki haan, like, we are being victimized here, no?
11:28No, what you're putting towards is a much more broader questions, you know?
11:32There is a, there's a society we live in, there's normative things, there's a social norm.
11:38You know, ghar pae agar khana banta hai, table pae roti aati hai, to 99% situation, woh yaa toh bacche ke paas jaati hai, ya papa ke paas jaati hai, ya the patriarch of the family.
11:48Very rarely is the first roti given to the lady of the house.
11:51Abhi bhi, agar aapki maid aapse baat kar rahe hai, so she is going to ask you for all this.
11:55These biases are so normative and so deep-seeded into the culture ki usko immediately badalna mushkil hai.
12:0299% of the time toh aapko khudi ni pata hota ki ye biases ho rahe hai aapke saath.
12:07For me, I think a lot of times it was somebody else who pointed it out.
12:11Did you realize that this happened with you?
12:14I don't think I realized it till a very late stage in life that there is, there is a bias which is existing because I'm also brought up in the same society, a similar kind of a household and you just take it as normally.
12:27You will take the responsibility, you will take the caregiving responsibility, whatever else it is there.
12:32But the first step is getting to that awareness of it, that hey, it is happening and being able to understand and then voicing it.
12:39Interestingly, our data says a very interesting fact.
12:43We've done some research of looking at about 200 HR professionals, you know, and this is slightly on the bias side.
12:49But jab bhi kisi HR professional ki paas resume aata hai, toho resume ke under, if there is a woman's resume, 43% of the time they look at whether the woman is married or not married.
13:01Only 22% of the time they look at the resume and say whether the man is married or not married.
13:06Now, thik hai, koji baat nahi dekh liya, dekh liya, but iska bias kya hai?
13:11Bias ye hai ki dimaarg mein rahata hai, if a woman is married, there is a possibility that she will maternity leave pe jayegi, kitne time kaam karegi, is it an investment or is it a cost that we do?
13:24For a man, he's there at work and he will just stay at work.
13:29I don't think any of the HR professionals consciously look at it.
13:33It's something which works in the subconscious, but it has a rolling effect over a period of time.
13:41Now, I hope that because I've shared this data and I've just spoken about this, that the HR professionals who are sitting in this room are going to now either try and remove that bias when they're looking at resumes or at least be aware of it.
13:58So, to me, that's like potentially the first step, as I said, of creating awareness and then moving forward to it on the biases.
14:05So, Sushmita, you know, like you have been a leader in a lot of companies, Jubilant, ICI, Samsung, now DC and Sriram.
14:15How have you seen that this bias also comes into company policies, people policies?
14:24Right.
14:25So, I'll tell you, in fact, the biases are there because, and sometimes it is invisible and sometimes it is also unintentional because the policies are made by men.
14:42The decision makers are men.
14:45They are discussing and they are deciding.
14:47So, sometimes they are not empathetic or sometimes they are just ignorant about women issues.
14:52And that's where, you know, I've seen policies.
14:57Like, for example, I'll give you an example like a medical policy.
15:03Now, a medical policy will have a lot of there are in the group medical policies have different various types of surgeries and there are caps in the surgeries.
15:14And I was sharing this with you.
15:16In one of the organizations that I worked and I've seen that there is a difference and the difference is so stark and so bizarre that when I raised my voice, the next year the policy got changed.
15:33And, I mean, I'm talking about biases in medical policies because there are, of course, maternity and hysterectomy and cataract, you know, some certain surgeries have ceilings and, you know, cappings on the surgeries.
15:50So, because the men were deciding and they never thought that this was a requirement.
15:56So, I'm talking about those biases also.
15:59Sometimes the bias is also about, you know, flexi working and suppose if you have a flexi working and we are told in organizations that it's to support women talent.
16:13But then the same women talent who will, you know, avail these policies are sometimes very subtly penalized.
16:22Oh, she is always away.
16:23She is working from home.
16:25She can't do the heavy lifting.
16:27So, you know, though you have a policy and you have the right to avail a policy, but then those are the whispers that go around those subtle comments which you see and which you hear and which you feel that you can feel the vibe.
16:42And so many and so forth.
16:45I can talk on and on about various other biases, but then for lack of time, I gave two examples.
16:51Thanks.
16:52Kanika, as Udaithi does a lot of research around workplaces and enabling women participation at workplaces.
17:01So, what does data say?
17:02What does your experience say as you work with companies, government and private?
17:08While the policies are there on paper, sometimes like Sushmita is saying one policy is not there, but a lot of times policies are there, but they still don't work.
17:20In fact, there is a lot of data to say how maternity benefit is actually a double-edged sword.
17:27So, when do they really work?
17:29Million dollar question.
17:33So, I'll break down the response in two aspects, right?
17:40One is looking at policies from the private sector perspective, organization perspective.
17:44The other is looking at policies from a government perspective.
17:47There are two level of policies which are happening.
17:50And then on the private sector side, there is a policy which is looking at the white collar kind of a set.
17:57And then there are policies which are more government policies which are more looking at wider range of people who are working in the manufacturing units, etc., right?
18:06Now, in the private sector, our data and the research really says that 72% of the women of the organization says we want more women in our workforce.
18:17Great.
18:18Only 21% actually get down to putting some active work towards active action planning towards getting more women in the workforce.
18:29Only 21% of the 72% who claim and they've signed some agendas and said yes, on their annual reports, they'll go ahead and do the pink washing and the lip service as we often call it, right?
18:41Now, what is that 21% which are doing different, right?
18:45And they're very small, small things they land up doing very different.
18:49If there's an interview panel, right, add women in the interview panel, right?
18:55Have a mixed interview panel.
18:57Make sure at stage two or stage three of an interview, you actually have a woman candidate coming forward, right?
19:04So these are one set of things or set of activities that happen to get more women in the workplace.
19:10The second set of things really happen is how do we enable women to get more advanced.
19:15Interestingly, again, the data says that women get a lot more mentorship, men get a lot more sponsorship.
19:24Right.
19:26What women are really looking for is more sponsorship at this point in time.
19:30And this is where the maternity aspect really comes in.
19:33Because what happens is we will mentor women and we'll go ahead and say, oh, yeah, it's very important.
19:37It's very nice.
19:38Sponsorship is actually pick her and give her an opportunity.
19:43Right.
19:4426% of the women, actually women lose out about 28% in their pay because of the maternity holiday that they'll end up taking.
19:54And the growth kind of stops.
19:56That's significant.
19:57That's significant in a 20-year, 30-year career journey.
20:01If there are more sponsors, if there are approaches which are taken differently, which is possible.
20:06When you start looking at maternity as an investment in a woman's career rather than looking at maternity as a cost to the company,
20:14you can actually change the mindset of the policy.
20:17So this is on the private sector side and a bunch of different things.
20:21On the government side on the policy, what the government is really saying is, yes, we are right now spending about 4.6 lakh crores towards gender.
20:29We are saying that we are going to increase the women labor force participation by 70% by 2047.
20:38That's the target we've put in there.
20:40We are going to create enabling infrastructure.
20:44So we are going to create housing, we are going to create transportation, we are going to make our city safe, etc.
20:50And they have allocated enough and more money towards these initiatives.
20:55It's still about 1.8% of our budget.
20:57It's not really 5% of our budget right now, which the World Bank is going ahead and saying.
21:01But still what the ask there is that are there enough implementation partners?
21:08Can the private sector come in and do something about it?
21:11The challenge which we are facing right now and what can happen to your question on policy front is there are enough resources.
21:17There is an integrated effort which is needed.
21:20Some places private sector has to work with the government.
21:23Sometimes it's the internal change which needs to happen within the organization.
21:28There are pockets enough and more examples on policy shifts.
21:34First step is mindset shift.
21:36You have to believe it is important.
21:37The toughest one.
21:39The toughest one.
21:40It's the biases to your question.
21:42Biases in the mindset shift and everything step by step will follow.
21:45And all of us have a role to play in making that happen.
21:49I know time is up but I have one last question.
21:52I know Ranjit is looking at me.
21:54So, women are labelled in our culture.
21:59Like one of the bureaucrats said, if you are accessible, you are considered available in a workplace.
22:06If you are outspoken, you are aggressive.
22:08If you are too soft, you are not meant to be a leader.
22:13So, this whole problem, what economists call double-bind, the problem of double-bind, right?
22:18How do women navigate that?
22:20So, your quick two takeaways.
22:23What is your advice to women, ambitious working women?
22:28Sushmita.
22:29I think be calm, focus on content and be clear about what you want.
22:38Because, you know, I have faced, you know, similar sort of stereotypes that if you are assertive,
22:47then you are perceived as aggressive.
22:49Whereas, another man in the same team, if he is assertive, then he is a great leader.
22:57He is perceived to be strong and so on and so forth.
23:00So, I would say hold your ground, speak up.
23:03If you don't subscribe to a certain comment or a certain statement made by somebody, I would say silence.
23:13While it's very comforting, it doesn't change anything.
23:16So, raise your voice which you have.
23:18You have got a seat at the table.
23:20Make full use of it so that, you know, others can follow.
23:25And when you speak up, you actually make space for the women who may follow you in the same space in any organization.
23:34So, that's my take on it.
23:38I think in the same way as Sushmita is saying, own it.
23:42There is nothing else that you can do owning and except owning it.
23:47And the stage that we are in, in our journey, I think success for us as women is not going to be about me breaking a glass ceiling.
23:57It is going to be about how many other women I can take along as I break the glass ceiling.
24:09That was a fantastic discussion.
24:10I learnt a lot and I hope you did too.
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