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00:00Hello. John, it's Duncan. Duncan, hello. The Moore's Murders, which I've not been near for a very long time. He has also written a book on the Moore's Murders.
00:18Duncan's staff joins us now. There's been so much written broadcast. Keith Bennett has not been found. I think that's why the case has remained.
00:25I've come across the original case files from the 60s. It raises all sorts of questions for me.
00:32How do you think it's going to help find Keith?
00:37October 1965, Saddleworth Moore suddenly became a grisly household name.
00:44The victims, it was rumoured, were all young children, all of whom had disappeared from the Manchester area.
00:51Five murdered children.
00:55Edward Evans, Leslie Ann Downey, John Kilbride, Pauline Reid and Keith Bennett.
01:09And at the heart of the case, a couple who killed them.
01:14Pressmen, cameramen, sightseers, all converged as the police began one of the most extensive murder searches in history.
01:21People think, oh, the Moore's Murders, I know what the Moore's Murders are. It's all in the past.
01:29Myra Hindley and Ian Brady are dead. The thing's done and dusted.
01:33But if you look at it,
01:34the case isn't closed.
01:39How on earth have you got your hands on these?
01:42There's been so many missed opportunities with this story.
01:50And we can't let this be another one.
01:53Hopefully, some new evidence will come to light.
01:57It's got to be.
01:59Hello, Ian.
02:00All right?
02:00Yeah.
02:01The only thing I'm all alone now is a fucking electronic tapewriter.
02:05And I certainly don't want those personal files to get into their own fucking hands.
02:11You're going to have to declare this to the police.
02:25That's Hyde Police Headquarters,
02:27the centre of one of the biggest ever police search operations in this country.
02:31Inside now, detectives are studying a police file,
02:36which day by day grows in content.
02:39And it's collecting evidence which might confirm the killings of young children.
02:44As a journalist, there are some stories that you can't walk away from,
02:49no matter how much you might want to.
03:01The Moore's murders have cast a dark shadow for 60 years.
03:15I first started working on the case
03:17when I questioned Myra Hindley about her version of events.
03:21I met her in the 1990s
03:25and I asked her where Keith Bennett is buried.
03:29I never got a clear answer.
03:31That's why, whether I like it or not,
03:34I'm still working on the case all these years later.
03:37A lot of the paperwork disappeared
03:42after the trial of Myra Hindley and Ian Brady.
03:48These trial transcripts which were in here,
03:50I tried to get those decades ago
03:52and the Crown Prosecution Service told me they'd all been shredded.
03:57When I was told that the original defence case files still existed,
04:01I went to look at the material
04:03and I was astonished by what I found.
04:07Notes written by Myra Hindley
04:09and photographs taken by Ian Brady,
04:12all put together by the defence team in the 1960s.
04:20So do you think there's only more to be said about the Moore's murders?
04:25There's still a body on the Moore's.
04:28Keith Bennett hasn't been found.
04:31The reason this stuff matters
04:33is because at the time it was put together,
04:37Ian Brady and Myra Hindley were charged with just three murders.
04:41We now know they've carried out at least five.
04:54I feel I've got a responsibility to look at this,
04:57to examine it and just to see what's in there,
04:59see if it takes us anywhere.
05:01I don't know how to find bodies,
05:05so if there's evidence here that could help find Keith,
05:08it needs a specialist, it needs professionals.
05:10The hardest cases I think I've ever dealt with in my career are child deaths.
05:26When you hear the term Moore's murders,
05:29you understand immediately the magnitude of that case.
05:33My ambition has always been to be a detective.
05:46My career in the police lasted a full 30 years.
05:52I've been exposed to some of the most difficult and challenging police investigations in my career,
05:59you know, largely around homicides.
06:01When I left the police, you know, I looked around at how I could use my expertise,
06:06but the one that I eventually chose was to use my skill set to examine potential miscarriages of justice.
06:13It motivates me every day that when I open up a new case, I really immerse myself and look for where the mistakes may have been made.
06:22I think it's a new case.
06:25I think it's a new case in my career.
06:26I don't know if you've ever seen anything.
06:26I think it's a new case in my career.
06:27I think it's a new case in my career.
06:28So I think it's one of the most difficult times it's been done.
06:29Fitzpatrick, who is Braley and Hindley's solicitor, has kept all of his material, he's kept every
06:37scrap of paper that Myra Hindley and Ian Braley wrote, he's kept every single log of every
06:42single interview he had. He knew that the material he had here was of historical importance,
06:49but I think he also knew that this wasn't done and dusted, it wasn't over, and that's
06:54why he's kept it. And here it is, finally emerging, after 60 years.
07:11It was a big step to let Duncan see the files, it was a major step. You know, I take my responsibilities
07:21as a solicitor very seriously. I did as much research on Duncan as I could.
07:28Somewhere on this part of the moor lies the grave of Keith Bennett. Duncan Staff, BBC News, Saddleworth
07:35Moore.
07:36I liked him. Quite posh.
07:40I would have loved to have met Hindley, to try to form my own opinion as to how much more
07:59she did actually know, and whether she led everybody on a wild goose chase. She changed
08:07the story so many times to suit whoever was her patron at the time.
08:13Throughout the investigations, the authorities have been concerned about the public's reaction
08:17to the macabre story that was unfolding. And on this day, their fears were confirmed.
08:24When Brady and Hindley were arrested, they were arrested in Hattersley, which is probably
08:32two miles from here. Hattersley, a Manchester overspill area, is the epitome of respectable
08:38working-class suburbia. Rows of new brick boxes, the odd skyscraper block of flats, and rents
08:45of £3 a week. It seemed incredible that this estate could be associated with the lurid rumours
08:51of mass murders. What we've got here is a forensic account of how the police found 17-year-old
09:00Edward Evans. It was a murder in a house, someone beaten to death. And here is a map of the crime scene.
09:13I had the terrible feeling that something had happened to him right away, because he wasn't
09:31the kind of boy who would leave home for any reason. And he was quite happy and very pleasant, always
09:40singing and whistling. And I just couldn't see him going away with anyone.
09:46Newspaper report about a missing girl for Lesley Ann Downey.
09:51She had disappeared on Boxing Day 1964 on her way to a fair in Manchester.
09:56The police carried on investigating and they found a suitcase and left luggage office at Manchester
10:05Central Station. Yet more disturbing reports of a gruesome tape recording and a number of
10:13pornographic photographs. There were pictures of Lesley being abused before she was murdered.
10:21But there was also a tape recording and it's that tape recording that really sank Myra Hindley,
10:27because it proves that she was there when a child died.
10:31Hindley said she didn't know that Brady was tape recording the session and that she was ashamed
10:36when she heard the tape played later.
10:38This is a transcript of the tape. It's just completely brutal and uncaring. And this is the murder that she
10:49struggled with when she was writing to me. She didn't write about it. She wrote about all the others,
10:54gave them an account, but with this, she couldn't deal with it. And the reason I think she couldn't
10:59deal with this is because she couldn't put herself away from it.
11:01In this grave, they found the body of a young girl. Ten months after her disappearance,
11:12ten-year-old Lesley Ann Downey had been found.
11:15That's Brady's handwriting. He's writing to his counsel. He's bothered by something.
11:26Here we go. Photos and recordings inadmissible, urgent. Essential not to permit either accused
11:33to give sworn evidence as to any recordings or photos made by them. He's really bothered about the pictures.
11:40He doesn't want to be questioned about them. Trying to keep evidence out of the case.
11:45Five days after the discovery of Lesley Ann Downey, the police found another body.
11:50That of 12-year-old John Kilbride. John, who had vanished almost two years before,
11:55was found only 400 yards from the grave of Lesley Ann Downey. But even more significant
12:01was the clue that led the police to this spot. This was a snapshot, but the place where Myra Hindley
12:07was crouching wasn't just anywhere. Myra Hindley was crouching on the exact spot
12:12where John Kilbride was buried.
12:17So they found John Kilbride and Lesley Ann Downey, but they knew there were other children missing.
12:22The search was called off.
12:34We know that Ian Brady took at least one image on top of a grave. Myra Hindley told me when writing to me
12:41that he had a system for recording where bodies were buried using photographs.
12:46So when I see a photograph here that is so very similar to an existing grave marker,
12:52I think, what is happening here? What is there to be gleaned from these images?
12:59Martin, good to meet you at last. Yeah, good to meet you at last. Come on in.
13:14I'm interested to see what you make of this lot.
13:16So we've got witness statements, trial testimonies, that's transcripts from the trial.
13:27These are defence papers, so interviews with Brady and Hindley for their defence.
13:32Photographic exhibits, transcripts, transcripts.
13:37I couldn't believe it was there, couldn't believe it existed.
13:42What's fascinating is that Myra Hindley wrote a note about every single police interview.
13:49So this is before, I think, before they found John Kilbride.
13:52Have a look at that note there.
13:56Only about Jay Kilbride, who Mount C said he was interested in,
14:00and Kay Bennett, who Tyrrell was interested in.
14:04That's a clear reference that they've spoken to Hindley at least about Keith Bennett's disappearance.
14:10Yeah.
14:12Was there any mention in any of the material here that you've read of Keith and Pauline at this stage?
14:18Yes.
14:19So what I've got here is a trial transcript, and Joe Mouncey is being questioned by the judge,
14:26Mr Fenton Atkinson.
14:27And he says, there were four missing children at this stage.
14:31And Mouncey answers, Kilbride, Downey, Reid and Bennett.
14:37And the Attorney General, who's prosecuting, asks, were these matters that you as police officers were under a duty to investigate?
14:44Most certainly, sir.
14:45So you can definitely see that they were part of the investigation.
14:48But this is the really fascinating bit.
14:51Does your lordship consider it necessary to give another warning to the press that this matter should not be reported at this stage?
14:58In other words, Reid and Bennett were not to be written about or spoken about.
15:03And the judge replies, I'm sure the press will not be reporting this.
15:08I can understand why the judge gave that instruction because clearly that would have prejudiced the jury
15:13and got them thinking beyond the facts of the case.
15:24I think this decision by the judge, forbidding the press from writing about Keith and Pauline,
15:31I think that's one of the reasons the case just vanishes.
15:38So this must have been produced as an exhibit, exhibit 122 at the trial.
15:47Yeah, so Brady was a really keen photographer.
15:50He took hundreds and hundreds of pictures.
15:52This is his personal album, which the police seized.
15:56We've got family portraits, a number of pets, and then this...
16:01That's Leslie Ann Downey's grave.
16:03So that's just interspersed in the middle of the album.
16:09It's so clear from these files that the police in the 1960s realised that many of these photos had a hidden meaning.
16:17So here we have Brady's picture.
16:20There's the matching shot done by the police.
16:25They've worked out that the stones were in exactly the same place.
16:28And they dug down, and then they found the grave of John Kilbride.
16:33These photos were clearly key to the police case in the 1960s, but what doesn't make sense to me is why they would then stop looking.
16:42I'm going to see Sandra Wilkinson, who's one of the few surviving members of the original police investigation in the 1960s.
17:01She was there when the whole case was being put together.
17:04I'm really curious about why did they stop, why they focused on the three murders, and what they knew about other cases.
17:18Hello. Hello, Sandra.
17:20Come on in. Thank you.
17:22There you are. Help yourself to that.
17:29I've got a few bits and pieces here you might remember, but I'll show you them in a minute.
17:32Oh, sure.
17:35Well, you're certainly keeping it alive, aren't you?
17:38I've actually stayed away from it for years. I didn't want to go near it.
17:40And the only thing that's brought me back is this paperwork.
17:43How on earth have you got your hands on these?
17:47It's from the defence files.
17:49Oh.
17:50So tell me about what happened the day that the case came in.
17:54It was a normal Thursday morning, except for the fact that Superintendent Talbot, he came in and said to me,
18:03get your coat, we've got a murder.
18:05What did you have to do to bring it all together?
18:08I was collecting the paperwork, the statements, that sort of thing.
18:13Did you do these?
18:17It's all the witness statements.
18:18Well, in that case, yes, I did.
18:21Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely.
18:23Could you tell me about court?
18:25He sat me right next to the exhibits.
18:28There was Mr John Kilbride's court.
18:32Of course, with it having been buried, they have this acidic smell.
18:36Brady sort of shrugged and put his head down and it was as if he'd accepted his fate.
18:47Had he been alone, worked alone, I don't think it would have made such a big impact.
18:51She was luring children to the deaths.
18:55Him to kill and I think that's horrendous.
18:57Up to then, we didn't think women ever did that sort of thing, but she did.
19:01A sick woman.
19:03Do you think they'll ever open the case again?
19:04I think the police really only want to know if there's an X marks the spot for Keith.
19:06What's fascinating looking at these original files is it kind of all comes together.
19:08You see that there were multiple images of graves, it's not just one and that's one thing that I hadn't really understood until I looked at these files and saw how it all fitted together.
19:20What I do wonder about these pictures is, where's Keith Bennett? Do they have a relevance to that? So I think it's worth looking at.
19:42But then you've got to take into account the manpower and the cost.
19:46Yeah, maybe it's almost easy for it to be looked at independently to say, you know, is there anything in this?
19:54And then for the reason you take it to the police.
19:56Was there any sense of frustration at all knowing that Keith Bennett wasn't being pursued at the time?
20:02No, there wasn't frustration. It was an acceptance that we'd done our best.
20:07We'd all done our best and the police had done a marvellous job already and it was just one of those things.
20:13We had to shut down at that time.
20:16Do you think there would have been an option of keeping going at the time?
20:19No, definitely not, no. It was time to draw a line under it for that time, at that time.
20:25I think the basic policing there was marvellous. It was basic policing, police work that brought it to a conclusion.
20:34They couldn't go on any further. But we were living in different times and I think times were tougher in the sixties. They did the best.
20:45Once I had the three convictions, they could clearly have kept going. I can see why they did it. I can see why they thought, oh, this is really tough. We're going to let it go. But do I think that that was the right decision?
21:03Well, deep down, no, I don't. Did that serve the interests of the families? No, I don't think it did. And did it serve the interests of the general public? I don't think it did that either.
21:16You know, in my mind, you've got Ian Brady left in charge. You know, he knows he's still got bodies missing on the moor. He's got control over those bodies. And the families of those victims are still suffering.
21:33It's very hard to see how that's right.
21:34In the 1960s, Myra Hindley and Ian Brady were charged with the murders of Pauline Reid and Keith Bennett. So are these pictures any use to us in those cases?
21:54So in this photograph taken by Ian Brady, Lesley and Downey's grave was found just above that. But what we now know is that it's quite close to where they found Pauline Reid as well.
22:06The latest chapter in the affair came after a senior detective visited Myra Hindley at Cookham Prison in Kentonry. Detective Chief Superintendent Peter Topping said that he had a
22:36agreed to cooperate with the police.
22:45Police officers, some of them armed, took Myra Hindley 200 yards from the road to an area that she had pinpointed.
23:01I discussed with her in detail and she could recall what she'd never said before.
23:06that when she'd been on the moor, she could see rocks silhouetted against the night sky.
23:13Now that took you further back into the moor on Holland Brown Knoll.
23:18We found the gravesite of Pauline Reid.
23:21The body was discovered in a part of the moor known locally as Holland Brown Knoll, not far from the spot where the body of Lesley-Ann Downey was found almost a quarter of a century ago.
23:35There's so much information there that supports the proposition that Pauline Reid's burial location was being plotted by Brady in the photographs and that the police might have been able to explore that and expose that.
23:54If you got this kind of evidence in the 60s, why not continue the search of this area for Pauline and or Keith at that time.
24:03And that would have saved 20 years and more of heartache for the Reid family.
24:10When I was 13, Dad's the founder, the founder, thank God the founder.
24:24You always get, oh, it's that year, it's that real year, it's that year, you know, you get all that.
24:38You know, that's why I wear my summertime cap.
24:41I try to keep my head down so nobody knows, you know, no one knows me.
24:50I don't know yet if any of the photos in the case files relate to Keith Bennett, but I'm absolutely certain that there are several pictures linked to Pauline Reid.
25:08Hello, Duncan. You all right?
25:09Hello, Jacqueline. Yeah, I'm good. Good morning.
25:12Got a drink about?
25:13Er, you haven't mind a tea.
25:14Tea, yeah.
25:16How's your rabbit today?
25:17Yeah, he's all right. He's out running around, I think.
25:19What's his name?
25:20Sandy.
25:21Sandy.
25:22Yeah.
25:27I'm kind of conscious that me coming here today and talking to you about this stuff is difficult.
25:31And I'm worried about that. I'm worried that it puts you under too much pressure.
25:36It needs to be done. It needs to be said.
25:38I mean, I'm sort of like the last one. You can really speak for my family.
25:44Hmm.
25:45I first started doing work on this when Hindley was trying to get out of prison and she claimed
25:50that she was bullied into the case by Brady. And so there was a chance of her being released at the time.
25:55So what I did was I wrote her and said, can I test your claim that you're bullied into everything by Brady.
26:03But then what happened when Hindley died was people close to her knew that there might be material in her paperwork that could help find Keith.
26:11You got the paperwork then?
26:12I did. They were worried about dealing directly with the police. So they said, would I go through it and pass on anything that was relevant to the police?
26:19Do you think the families had the right to look at them papers what you got?
26:23That's a very fair point. Because I thought I was doing the right thing by going to the police.
26:28Yeah, but we're going to the police, but you should come to us. Evidence should come to the families, you know, so we can see. We're still going through it.
26:35Yeah. Well, I'll share things with you now. Do you want me to take you through some of the stuff that's in the files?
26:41But only if you want to see it. Yeah. Yeah. So these pictures, this evidence, we don't think it was looked at fully in the 1960s.
26:50So that's what we're doing now. Yeah. So that's the original one. That's on John Kilbride's grave.
26:56This picture was taken by a photographic officer. So you see the rocks. So they did a matching image.
27:02So this is before they found John. That's how they then thought, right, we need to search here.
27:07And do you recognize this? Yeah. Pauline's. Yeah. Pauline's, because I put the flowers right there.
27:16You put the flowers by those rocks. Yeah. So Myra Hindley's taking the picture.
27:21So she stood by Pauline's grave, isn't she? Yeah. And this one here, that's Pauline's grave in the background.
27:29So this is another one. I mean, it's very similar to the one. Yeah.
27:35John Kilbride's grave, isn't it? Even the dog, though, is still small. So it can't be that far apart.
27:41Yeah. In the 1960s, there were loads of pictures taken around where Pauline was buried.
27:47But then the investigation hasn't chased every single angle down to do with the pictures.
27:55They stopped.
27:57Why did they leave it? I don't know.
28:01What's going for the heads? What's going for the mines?
28:05They were securing the conviction, weren't they? So I think maybe they thought, oh, they're never coming out.
28:09That's it. Job done.
28:10Yeah, but it's not, though, is it? I mean, there's poor kids out there.
28:16It shouldn't have stopped. It shouldn't have stopped. I mean, the crew carried on, you know what I mean?
28:21If I met Pauline and hopefully maybe Keith, you know what I mean? If they would have carried on earlier.
28:26Yeah. It just, it just jigsaws together to me as an injustice.
28:35I was just crying and crying and thinking about what had happened in my mind.
28:42And I kept thinking about it. And I couldn't sleep through thinking about it.
28:46And it built up and built up. And I think that's what caused it.
28:50I've been nervous for it now. Even now, I think about it every day.
28:59It's always there, always. I'm always worried about when these are nephews, you know, because it's happened to me at a party.
29:06It could happen to them.
29:07It runs through the generations. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:09It doesn't stop with the one act. It doesn't fade away. It just keeps going.
29:12Yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:14And there's one thing that really bothers me about this and I think is really important, is pointing that out.
29:19And what the consequences are for your family and for Keith's family.
29:24You know what I mean? It's like you've been forgotten in it.
29:26Yeah, yeah. Absolutely helpless.
29:29That's how I feel.
29:31So what is it that you'd like to see now?
29:34Oh, thank you. Thank you.
29:37And if there's material that...
29:40What leads to him?
29:41..can be looked at.
29:42Needs to be looked at.
29:44Shouldn't have to wait any longer.
29:46You know what I mean? For the answer is what we need.
29:49We've been waiting long enough.
29:52Well, thank you for letting me show you material and talk through it with you.
29:55And I take the point about keeping you informed, so I'll make sure we do that.
29:59All right, lovely.
30:01And speak again soon?
30:02Yeah.
30:04You're self-driving.
30:06Yeah, lovely.
30:07All right.
30:08Take care.
30:09All right, bye.
30:10Bye, bye.
30:29Good boy.
30:31John, it's Duncan.
30:33Duncan, hello.
30:35You well?
30:36I am, thank you.
30:37This is a surprise.
30:38What's afoot?
30:40Moore's Murders, which I've not been near for a very long time.
30:46I've come across the original case files from the 60s.
30:50Particularly the work on the photographs is there.
30:53It raises all sorts of questions for me.
30:55How do you think it's got a health line, Keith?
30:58Well, I hope so.
30:59There's no point in looking at it unless it can advance things.
31:03So, you know, that's my purpose.
31:06Yeah, brilliant.
31:08Yeah, cheers, John. Bye.
31:09Bye.
31:11John and I have known each other for decades.
31:14He's the founding father of forensic archaeology.
31:17In other words, finding bodies for police forces.
31:20He really knows what he's doing, and I think it'd be really valuable to get his input on it.
31:25So, er, is it looking like it is a grey?
31:31It's starting to smell a bit like one.
31:37In a sense, I suppose what I have in common with him is a deep personal investment in the case.
31:42It matters to me to involve him.
31:56It happened when I was young, and it gives a sort of uncomfortable feeling every time you think about it,
32:03because it takes you back to what you felt when you were 14, whatever it was when you heard it on the radio or saw it on the television.
32:10The sort of thing your parents warned you about, talking to strangers.
32:15So there's a sort of unconscious cloud, if you like, there all the time.
32:22Duncan likes to fly things past me.
32:35And when there's new information or he's seen something in the press to get an opinion,
32:41which is fair enough, that's what journalists do.
32:44Quite happy to help and support him, because I know his motives are good.
32:52And tell me, you keep listening to myautonomic and monsieur Jarrus and indies at a restaurant where it needs to bejątri 쪽.
32:59That's very well mentioned.
33:06Pre gorgeous and conscientious, but it doesn't bless the Lord, and even if I lost my body,
33:16Well, we honestly thought we were going to find Keith.
33:25This has got a lot going for it
33:27because Brady could have gone along shiny brook,
33:31out of sight of her and everybody else,
33:33and there are two gullies,
33:35a shallow one there and a deeper one here.
33:39They've both got exposed peating
33:41and they're both possibilities.
33:43It's probably my naivety or our naivety
33:47in going to where we did go
33:49because we believe fully everything,
33:52or pretty much everything,
33:53that Brady and Hindley told us
33:55about where they buried Keith and where they took him.
34:05Myra Hindley,
34:06she says that she followed them down the moor,
34:09they walked for quite a considerable way into the moor.
34:12Brady goes into this gully with the boy
34:15and she says that she was instructed to be look out.
34:21She said the boy was killed in this gully.
34:23You know, we thought we had all the right gear,
34:41the right strategy, the right way of doing it.
34:45It's just one of those things
34:46and it was very sad because Alan was there,
34:48Alan Bennett, Keith's brother.
34:49I remember watching Alan sitting by shiny brook.
34:57His whole life has been marked by it
34:59and I really felt for him.
35:04The chance to see this through,
35:06to kind of finish and do everything that we possibly can,
35:09even if it doesn't result in success,
35:10just to try,
35:12that just feels like something that has to happen.
35:14Would it help you to see how the bodies were buried?
35:23Yes, let's have a look at that.
35:25OK, so that's Chong Kilbride's grave.
35:27Looking at it,
35:28it's only about 20 centimetres
35:30from the ground surface to the top of the body, isn't it?
35:33It's a relatively shallow grave.
35:36Yeah.
35:37So that's hurried.
35:39And the location is incredibly risky, isn't it?
35:41Because it's so close to the road.
35:43Yeah.
35:44The cars are just there.
35:45Cars are just there.
35:46It's almost in plain sight.
35:47Yeah.
35:49So this is the map of Holland Brown Knoll
35:53that the police created in the 60s
35:55to show how the photo is related to John and Leslie's graves.
36:01So all these letters and numbers relate to different photographs.
36:06Can we see C7?
36:09Is that C6 and C7?
36:14C7 is looking across the road.
36:18Towards grave of John Kilbride.
36:23So John Kilbride's grave is in the background.
36:25Under that.
36:26That's right.
36:29This is Brady's shot.
36:30Really?
36:31Yeah.
36:31That's Leslie and Anne's grave.
36:33So whereas in the past you thought,
36:35oh, a marker picture has got to be Myra Hindley slap bang on the grave.
36:38Well, it's not there, is it?
36:40You know?
36:41It's far more sophisticated than that.
36:44I think what we're looking at
36:45is to see if Brady had a system
36:48for mapping his graves
36:50that isn't particularly obvious.
36:53I was just wondering,
36:54looking at the pictures,
36:55they seem to point in two directions.
36:59One is the John Kilbride direction
37:02and the other is the Leslie Anne Downey direction.
37:06We've got Pauline Reid along there too.
37:09Some are on the graves.
37:11Some are looking across graves, aren't they?
37:14Yeah.
37:14Is there just a chance
37:16that Keith Bennett is buried with all the other victims?
37:19Possibly.
37:20It's very easy indeed to think along narrow lines
37:23because you've been doing it for so long.
37:26Now these images have come up
37:27to make me think quite fundamentally different.
37:30if Keith's body is there.
37:34Does it also mean that Brady and Hindley are complete liars?
37:38They've taken us to the wrong place.
37:40They're not exactly paragons of virtue, aren't they?
37:46I'm not sure whether Brady and Hindley
37:48were telling the truth about where they took Keith.
37:52John's focus is now firmly on Hollenbrown Knoll,
37:55but Martin is asked to see all the evidence
37:58connected to Ho Grain and Shiny Brook.
38:00So, Martin, in the 2000s, I wrote to her
38:08and she sent out a series of maps.
38:10First of all, a hand-drawn sketch,
38:12which is of the route she took with Ian Brady.
38:15Yes.
38:16It's then detailed all in survey maps.
38:19This is the one time she said exactly where she was
38:22when Keith Bennett died.
38:25She's located herself very precisely on the moor
38:29by Ho Grain and Shiny Brook.
38:32And here she's saying,
38:34I sat here when Keith was killed,
38:35but she's not saying where the body is.
38:37No.
38:38Again, it's placing distance between her
38:40and what actually happened to the victims.
38:44There's always an element of distancing.
38:46Yeah.
38:59These are the letters she wrote to me.
39:05Yes.
39:06Only place she dealt with the murders,
39:09other than in the confession to topping,
39:11was in these letters.
39:13She wrote a really detailed narrative
39:15of the murders and her role in them.
39:17And this is her correspondence with her supporters.
39:23I would say that whatever she had done,
39:25she would be entitled to be considered for parole.
39:28Everybody should be considered after 10 years,
39:31and she's been in prison now,
39:33and they're at 12 and 11.
39:35There was a real chance she was going to get out.
39:36And that's why Ian Brady in the mid-'80s
39:40said that there were five victims.
39:45And it was only at that point
39:46that she then chose to confess.
39:49That was more likely to help her than continuing to lie.
39:53This is all about getting out of prison.
39:55Get me out, get me out.
39:59I feel in all this stuff that's shaping,
40:01everything's got to be taken with a pinch of salt.
40:03Yes.
40:03I can't remember what prison he was in at the time.
40:07He said he could sense from my letters
40:09that I was drifting away from him.
40:12He wrote,
40:13What slogan do you have round your neck today?
40:17And really nasty, hurtful things,
40:19until I finally decided that he'd begun to hate me.
40:23So I wrote my last letter to him.
40:27The relationship appeared to end in the early 70s.
40:30Yes.
40:30I, you know, don't know for sure
40:33whether there was any contact afterwards or not.
40:35Could they have communicated between each other
40:38and conspired to lead the police investigation
40:41to Ho Grain and Shiny Brook?
40:44Police have moved to a different part of Saddleworth Moor
40:47in their search for victims of the Moor's murderers.
40:49Now they're going to concentrate on an area
40:51a mile and a half away at Shiny Brook.
40:54The part of the Moor
40:55where they think 12-year-old Keith Bennett is buried.
40:58The one thing that perhaps gives the team
41:01the more satisfaction is the hope
41:03that it will bring some peace to the family.
41:06Chief Superintendent Peter Topping,
41:08the head of Manchester CID,
41:10decided to reopen the Moor's investigation.
41:13Some said he was wasting his time.
41:15Mr. Topping said,
41:17God help us when we come to the day
41:19when we don't investigate murder.
41:20Hindley led the police to areas
41:24she and Brady visited more than 20 years ago.
41:28Her visit has changed the direction of the police search.
41:32They both take Topping independently
41:34to an area of Saddleworth Moor
41:36not previously relevant.
41:39The group was seen making for Shiny Brook.
41:42The visit was worthwhile and well justified
41:47but he's not pointed to a spot in the ground
41:50where I'm going to find a body.
41:53James Anderton, the Chief Council, pulled the plug on it.
41:56I think he was worried about it going on forever
41:58the same way the plug was pulled back in the 60s.
42:00We know that the information
42:02that Hindley did give to Peter Topping
42:04did directly lead to Pauline Reid's body being found.
42:07Yeah, so you think,
42:09oh, she helped find Pauline Reid
42:11so she definitely want Keith Bennett to be found.
42:14I mean, the real dilemma now is
42:17trying to work out at what point who told the truth.
42:22You've got all of this unique material
42:25that Myra Hindley has given you.
42:28The missing part for me
42:29is where is Ian Brady's material?
42:32There is still a lot to do.
42:39It's a shame
42:40that we're 60 years down the line
42:42doing it
42:43but we'll keep going
42:45we'll keep exploring these areas.
42:56Hello, Duncan.
42:57Hello, John.
42:58Good to see you.
42:59Horrible weather.
43:00Come in, come in.
43:02So we've got two areas
43:05that need to be looked at.
43:07There's Holland Brown Knoll
43:08and then over here
43:09we've got the Ho-Grain
43:11and Shiny Brook area.
43:14What could be a possible burial site for Keith?
43:17I spent so long
43:18since the 1990s
43:19looking in the Shiny Brook
43:22Ho-Grain area
43:23on the basis of
43:25what Braden Hindley has said
43:26I think that Keith is not
43:28in that particular area.
43:30So the next obvious step
43:32is to move towards
43:33the Holland Brown Knoll area
43:34where the other three bodies are.
43:39And the evidence for this direction
43:41is a number of photographs
43:42taken by Hindley and Brady.
43:46The position that Hindley takes
43:49on this rock
43:50is focal to pretty much
43:53everything they've done.
43:54So from there
43:55you can circle around
43:56that is their homicide domains
43:58where they've murdered
43:59and buried people.
44:01I'd like to think
44:02that if that was the case
44:03then Keith was in that area too.
44:05That's a far cry
44:09from what I was thinking
44:1015 years ago.
44:12It might take me 15 years
44:14to get there as well, John.
44:18Come on, tell me what you can do
44:19that I haven't done.
44:22So my working hypothesis
44:25at the moment
44:25is taking that marker there
44:28where Myra's sat
44:29and where she's indicated.
44:31Where she says she's sat.
44:32Yes, of course
44:33and we can only go on
44:34what she said.
44:35It's either maintaining a lie
44:36or it's consistent truth
44:38and you have to take
44:40a leap of faith.
44:41Myra Hindley significantly
44:42when she went down her grain
44:43pointed Peter Topping
44:45and told him
44:47that she'd gone up
44:48onto the plateau
44:48near to the waterfall
44:50on Shiny Brook.
44:53The police have searched
44:54a lot close to the waterfall
44:55because there are several
44:57pictures of Myra
44:58in that area.
44:59For me
45:00despite the fact that
45:02John and Peter Topping's team
45:04and various other search team
45:05over the years
45:06have really
45:07gone to town
45:08on searching Shiny Brook
45:10and Ho Grain
45:11and the excavations there
45:12there is still
45:13some areas of interest
45:14that we need to eliminate.
45:16Myra Hindley's
45:17consistent account
45:18is that she sat
45:19on slightly high ground
45:20up on the plateau there.
45:23She's been very precise
45:24about where she is.
45:25Yeah.
45:26The most significant thing
45:27is that throughout
45:28Myra Hindley's accounts
45:30of all of the murders
45:31she always puts herself
45:32just away from the murder.
45:34Yeah.
45:34Yeah and the biggest
45:35anomaly is the first account
45:37she gives
45:38to Peter Topping
45:39and that is that
45:41Brady and Keith
45:42were only 25 to 30 yards away
45:44just into a dip
45:46just out of sight
45:47so she's now
45:48putting them back here
45:49where she's saying
45:50she sat.
45:53It's so close
45:54to the other areas
45:55they searched
45:56but for me
45:57I'd have gone back
45:58to where Myra Hindley
45:59said she was sitting
46:00and I'd have worked
46:01from there
46:02there outwards.
46:03Yeah.
46:03OK so
46:06what's the plan
46:07then from here?
46:08I think we should
46:09go to Shiny Brook
46:10look at the ground
46:12as well
46:12and look at it
46:13through their eyes
46:14you know
46:14stand back
46:15on that same piece
46:16of land
46:16getting as close
46:17as possible
46:18to that
46:18X marks
46:19the spot
46:19that she drew
46:20on the map.
46:21Yes.
46:22Retrace the steps
46:24that Brady
46:24and Hindley
46:25said that they
46:25led Keith
46:26on the night
46:27he disappeared.
46:33John doesn't
46:35think Keith
46:35is in Shiny Brook
46:36but he's agreed
46:37to help Martin
46:38look in that area.
46:42You ready for this
46:43John?
46:44No.
46:46I hate it
46:46I hate you.
46:48You hate me?
46:49Yes.
46:49That's not very nice
46:50John.
47:00When I was asked
47:01to come back
47:02my mind was
47:03filled with horror
47:03you know
47:04this is not a place
47:05I like.
47:08The vegetation
47:09has been changed.
47:10Yeah.
47:12The terrain
47:13is unforgiving
47:14like walking
47:15through snow
47:16or thick mud
47:16it's very tiring
47:17you have to watch
47:18your feet all the time.
47:24When you stand up
47:26here you can't
47:26help but think
47:27about Keith.
47:29He enjoyed
47:29playing football
47:30enjoyed playing
47:32with his siblings
47:33and I find myself
47:36thinking about
47:36his last journey
47:37when he walked
47:38onto the moors
47:39with Hindley
47:40and Brady
47:40and never came out.
47:46He would have been
47:47stumbling and falling
47:48getting more and more
47:49anxious
47:49more anxiety
47:50probably not
47:52wanting to go
47:53any further
47:53and asking a lot
47:54of questions
47:54particularly when
47:56the ruse is
47:57we're looking
47:57for a lost glove
47:58that we've left
47:59on the moor
47:59having been up
48:00there earlier.
48:04The story she gave
48:05and the map
48:06that she drew
48:07tells us
48:10that they parked
48:11on the road
48:12there by the lay
48:13and they walked
48:16him down
48:17here.
48:18Yeah.
48:19They zigzagged
48:20across the stream
48:21there was a track
48:22there you could
48:23do that.
48:23Yeah.
48:25We've always assumed
48:26the plateau
48:26was on that side
48:27and I think it's
48:28fair to say
48:28that it is.
48:30Yeah.
48:36After what
48:36seemed ages
48:37I saw him
48:38turn round
48:39and point up
48:40the bank
48:40and I immediately
48:42made my way
48:42to the top
48:43looked around me
48:45but could see
48:46nobody
48:46not even
48:47Ian and the child.
48:53I see
48:53Ho Grain
48:54and the main
48:54road up here
48:55and she
48:56That shiny
48:57brook
48:57Yeah
48:57shiny brook
48:58there.
48:58She's put herself
48:59higher up
48:59on the higher
49:00ground.
49:01And just up
49:01above the ferns
49:02is the higher
49:03ground.
49:06Thinking about it
49:06if she's on the
49:07slightly higher bit
49:08then she's got
49:08sight back to the
49:09road.
49:10And he's got
49:12cover by being
49:12a bit lower.
49:13Yeah, absolutely.
49:15And I think
49:15one of the
49:16significant things
49:16that both
49:17Brainy and
49:18Hindley say
49:19they scan the
49:20horizon with
49:21the binoculars
49:21and they did
49:22that with
49:22Pauline Reed
49:23they used the
49:24binoculars to
49:24cover the ground
49:25to make sure
49:25they weren't
49:26being observed.
49:27So that kind
49:28of resonates
49:28with maybe being
49:30just sort of
49:30a little bit
49:31higher in that
49:32area there.
49:32the
49:33time.
49:33Wow.
49:34As far as I
49:42know no one
49:42has done a
49:43really methodical
49:44search for that
49:44plateau.
49:45There's certainly
49:45no record of it.
49:46Yeah.
49:48Which looking at it
49:50now it just seems
49:51so kind of blindingly
49:52obvious that
49:53somebody should have
49:53a go at that
49:54and at least
49:54if nothing else
49:55then eliminate it.
49:56the plateau
49:59was quite exposed.
50:02It was the
50:02exposure that was
50:03the main reason
50:04that we rejected
50:05that as a
50:05possibility.
50:07Hindley's saying
50:08I'm sat there
50:09just out of sight.
50:11Is that the area
50:12that's of more
50:13significance now?
50:15I've cemented
50:16that the area
50:17that we haven't
50:18searched previously
50:19is that plateau.
50:26I wasn't planning
50:29ever to come
50:30back again
50:30but somehow
50:32it draws one
50:33along.
50:34You know
50:35a bit like a
50:36terrier.
50:36I've got my
50:37teeth into this
50:37and I don't
50:38want to let it
50:39go.
50:41I'm trying to
50:42think well
50:42where can he be
50:43where can't he be
50:44what evidence
50:44is there for this
50:45what evidence
50:45is there for that.
50:48So I don't
50:48want to give up
50:49on Keith
50:49or his brother
50:50Alan
50:52and at the
50:54same time
50:54I don't want
50:55Brady to get
50:57away with it
50:57and I think
50:58that's very much
50:59a driving force.
51:05If we can work
51:06out the way
51:06he was thinking
51:07gain an insight
51:09into his trickery
51:10of his little
51:12Machiavellian mind
51:13then maybe
51:14that'll be a way
51:15to find Keith.
51:25He's been an education
51:30for me.
51:35I've never
51:36captured for years
51:38you're a marvellous
51:39guy.
51:42I mean he's
51:43often called
51:43the most evil
51:44and I've never heard
51:45but he's a psychopath.
51:47we've been able
51:59to track down
52:00Dr. Alan Keatley's
52:01widow Joan.
52:04She has
52:06access to all
52:07of the material
52:08that Alan
52:08accumulated
52:09in relation
52:10to Ian Brady
52:10letters
52:11and books
52:12and interviews.
52:13and I think
52:15she's nervous
52:16about being
52:17identified
52:17and linked
52:18to Ian Brady.
52:21She doesn't
52:23want her face
52:23to be seen.
52:26We're incredibly
52:27grateful to you
52:27Joan for allowing
52:28us access
52:29to this material.
52:30Six big boxes
52:32and they came
52:33in a big white
52:34van with A-H
52:35painted on the roof
52:36came from Ashworth
52:38Hospital.
52:39These lists
52:40were in the
52:41six boxes
52:42that came
52:42and I managed
52:43to tick off
52:44the ones
52:44that I've found
52:45so far.
52:48Must be thousands
52:49all different
52:50subjects.
53:03Can I speak
53:04to Jade Ward
53:05please?
53:05Yes,
53:05it was called.
53:06Dr. Keithley.
53:09Hello.
53:10Hello Ian.
53:11All right.
53:11All right.
53:11Yeah.
53:12Yeah.
53:13These are
53:13recorded
53:14telephone
53:15conversations.
53:16OK,
53:16so they're
53:17recorded
53:17conversations
53:18of Brady
53:18and Alan.
53:19That's right.
53:21I've been
53:21yet anywhere
53:22secondhand
53:23but otherwise
53:24any book
53:26on criminal
53:26psychology,
53:28criminal
53:28or abnormal
53:29psychology.
53:30Yeah,
53:30well lots
53:30of those
53:31of it
53:31these days.
53:32He and
53:33Brady
53:33had read
53:34a lot
53:34of the same
53:35books
53:35so they
53:35could always
53:36have
53:36intelligent
53:36conversations.
53:37Alan enjoyed
53:40the discussions.
53:42Well they
53:42trusted each
53:43other but
53:44Alan couldn't
53:45condone what
53:46he'd done.
53:48There was always
53:48that in the
53:49background.
53:51The first victim
53:52was Pauline
53:52Reid who was a
53:53girl on her
53:53way to a dance.
53:55Alan was head
53:56of religious
53:57studies at the
53:58Sixth Form
53:58College and Alan
54:00wanted to do a
54:01course on evil
54:02and so he
54:03thought the
54:04most notorious
54:04murder case
54:05was the
54:06Moors Murders
54:07and that
54:08was how it
54:09all started
54:09with letters
54:10and then
54:11the visit
54:12started.
54:17Can I speak
54:17to the lodge
54:18on the East
54:18Gate please?
54:19On the East
54:19Gate?
54:20Please, yeah.
54:21Hello?
54:21Hello, I wonder
54:22if you could
54:22make a note
54:23of a visit
54:23this coming
54:24Sunday please?
54:25Yes.
54:26Yes, Dr.
54:27Keithley?
54:28Yes.
54:28To see you in
54:29Brady.
54:29I'll be there
54:30about two o'clock.
54:31OK, doctor.
54:33Bye.
54:34I think he
54:35visited every
54:35three weeks.
54:37He was there
54:37for hours.
54:39Did Alan
54:39ever say
54:40what he hoped
54:41to get out
54:41of that
54:42engagement
54:43with Brady
54:43at that
54:44point in
54:44time?
54:45What his
54:45motivation
54:45was,
54:46Joan?
54:47Alan really
54:47wanted to
54:48find out
54:48what really
54:49had influenced
54:50him.
54:50Yeah.
54:51The psychology
54:52behind it
54:52really.
54:56I think
54:57he writes
54:57their
54:58magnificence
54:59and he
54:59agrees
55:01with something
55:01that's
55:01been written
55:02out.
55:04It's
55:05worthwhile
55:05just
55:06spending
55:06some time
55:07going
55:07through
55:07everything
55:07that
55:08he's
55:08had
55:08his
55:08hands
55:08on.
55:09So this
55:15has come
55:15from Brady
55:16and from
55:16his
55:17cell.
55:17He's
55:18reading
55:18about
55:18Dessard,
55:20Dostoevsky,
55:21Kafka,
55:22Prost,
55:23the drivers
55:24behind his
55:25imagination
55:26and his
55:26actions.
55:27I can see
55:28already that
55:28there's some
55:29notations there.
55:32He could
55:32speak German
55:33and understood
55:34German.
55:34Newman,
55:36Ward,
55:36Ashworth.
55:38I've got you
55:38tobacco and
55:39everything else.
55:40Ring me if you
55:41want anything.
55:42No, not at
55:43the moment.
55:43Yeah, ring me if
55:44you want anything.
55:44Right.
55:47We went on
55:48holiday, took all
55:49these books.
55:49All Alan wanted
55:50to do was read.
55:52I didn't say
55:53very much to
55:53friends or some
55:55members of the
55:55family.
55:57I think because
55:58they thought of him
55:59as an evil
55:59person.
56:02I wonder if
56:02they're Brady's
56:03famous dark
56:04glasses.
56:05I think they
56:06must be.
56:07Alan didn't
56:07have any.
56:11If you ever
56:12write more
56:12books, you
56:13can use my
56:13letters freely.
56:15Brady's letter
56:16to AK,
56:1711th of
56:17March,
56:182010.
56:19Why don't
56:20you write a
56:20book yourself
56:21and trawl
56:22through the
56:23seedy false
56:24inventions of
56:25others?
56:27He wouldn't
56:28have done
56:28that to any
56:29psychologist or
56:30policeman or
56:31investigator.
56:33He trusted
56:33him.
56:35These are
56:36various of
56:37Brady's letters
56:38to Alan.
56:39It's very
56:40distinctive
56:40handwriting.
56:41Once you see
56:42it, you don't
56:43forget it.
56:44So that was
56:45when Alan
56:45started to keep
56:47the records and
56:48write the
56:49book, which
56:50was only to
56:51be published
56:52after Brady's
56:53death.
56:57Was there
56:58any other
56:58conversation in
56:59those,
56:59Joan?
57:00Well, I
57:00don't know.
57:01I haven't heard
57:02them.
57:02We'd need to
57:03listen to them.
57:03Oh, you'd need
57:04to listen to them.
57:05Okay, well, if you
57:06were happy for us to
57:06take his way, we'll
57:07take his way and
57:08listen to them.
57:08them and we'll see
57:10what's on there.
57:24The only thing I'm
57:25allowed now is a
57:26fucking electronic
57:27typewriter.
57:28Oh, yeah.
57:28Do you remember the
57:29one I sold to you?
57:30Yeah.
57:30I didn't keep that
57:31fucking thing.
57:32Yeah.
57:33Pathetic.
57:33And I suddenly
57:35don't want those
57:36personal files to
57:37get into the wrong
57:38fucking hands.
57:47You get no
57:48bullshit with
57:49Brady.
57:49If you're a
57:50policeman, if you're
57:52a journalist, you
57:54had no hope at
57:55all.
57:56The only way you
57:57could get him to
57:58talk about the
57:59real shit was to
58:01be part of his
58:02intimate compartment.
58:03First of all, I've
58:07got, you know, the
58:09MS.
58:11The MS?
58:12Yeah.
58:13So that's
58:14manuscript.
58:17Oh, fuck me.
58:19This is the first
58:20time where we've got
58:21an indication there
58:22might actually be
58:22something written
58:23down that describes
58:24where and how Keith
58:25was killed.
58:27There's stuff in his
58:28hand, his words.
58:31Actually written by
58:32Ian Brady
58:33is the evidence
58:35there.
58:35파kit
58:38playsick.
58:40There.
58:41Big in there.
58:43There's a
58:44맡bro ー
58:45biomass ー
58:51We're going to be
58:51guys.
58:52Are you out?
58:52We're going to be
58:52on you.
58:55We're going to be
58:57going to be
58:58well.
58:58We're going to be
58:59about it.
58:59We're going to be
59:00thatан
59:00out of the
59:01bad.
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