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00:00Aswara Ji, I wanted to talk more about relationships and I want to talk about toxic relationships.
00:10When is it and how is it that a relationship turns toxic?
00:21We have to go to the very beginning of the relationship.
00:29Most of the times, a relationship does not really turn toxic.
00:38It is toxic in its inception, in its genesis itself.
00:46It is just that the toxicity remains hidden when things are rosy and pink.
00:56And when the situations change and things turn a little adverse, then the toxicity surfaces.
01:06And we feel as if the relationship has turned sour or toxic.
01:11It hasn't.
01:14How are relationships founded in the first place?
01:18Tell me, how does that happen?
01:21It's usually a common, someone you see more often.
01:27Usually what happens is if you are in the same class.
01:29So, somebody you get familiar with, you see them around a lot or they approach you.
01:36The first thing is, somebody has to be in your sensual field, the field of the senses.
01:42And then why does one feel attracted to that particular object?
01:45Because they fit a certain model that you like.
01:49More explicitly, how do most relationships take place?
01:55You have a certain need and you feel that the other person can fulfill it.
01:58It could be emotional, physical, sometimes even financial.
02:02Right?
02:03Yes.
02:04So, what's usually that need about?
02:13As in?
02:15Why does a man feel attracted to a woman?
02:18Why does a woman go towards a man?
02:21What's the nature of the need?
02:22So, they feel a certain lack, maybe, that the other person can help them with a certain insecurity.
02:30A certain lack, a certain insecurity, right?
02:32So, that's how the relationship begins in the first place.
02:41You lack something within, and to make up for it, you are going to the other person.
02:47You are looking at the other person primarily in a utilitarian way.
02:53You want to use the other person.
02:57If you really want to understand things, we'll have to be blunt, right?
03:02Because you want to use the other person.
03:04It's not very different from exploitation.
03:09It appears like love, but you just want to use the other person as something that would
03:16plug a hole here or here or somewhere, right?
03:22Yeah, absolutely.
03:23The woman, for example, might have been conditioned by the body of the society to have somebody
03:29walking by her side, the man might again be driven by his physical needs or peer pressure
03:38to demonstrate that he, too, carries a partner or a consort.
03:44So, that's how people feel attracted, somebody's body is attractive, somebody looks a super achiever, somebody carries a lot of money, somebody
03:58is quite famous.
04:01And then you get drawn towards that person, right?
04:04Why?
04:05Because that's something that you would want to add to yourself.
04:11Can I have her body available to me?
04:14That will fulfill a certain need.
04:16Can I have her money available to me?
04:19Can I have his prestige or his power available to me?
04:25What would compensate for my lack of these things?
04:29So that's what is happening.
04:30Now the need that is there, somehow it happens that it never can get fulfilled.
04:41Be it a man, be it a woman, be it any person, all of us feel a certain hollow within.
04:48There is a void, there is an emptiness, an incompletion that constantly bugs us.
04:55We feel it.
04:57We feel it and it is for the sake of filling up that hollow that we work so much, that we
05:07do much of what we do, including striking relationships.
05:14So that's how you get associated with someone.
05:16But we said the need cannot really be met by anybody.
05:23So what would happen now?
05:25I have brought something home and that which I have brought home is not doing what I expected
05:33it to do.
05:35Won't I be annoyed?
05:38Resentment.
05:39There is resentment.
05:40There would be resentment.
05:42And in many cases it can take the form of very obvious toxicity.
05:54You may even get physically violent.
06:01Or there could be micro episodes of subtle violence continuously.
06:09You might probably be cultured or sophisticated enough to not physically beat up the other.
06:15But through your expressions, through subtle hints, gestures.
06:22So through all those little things that we do throughout the day with our partners.
06:28Because we know their buttons.
06:30We know their buttons.
06:31So we can play around with things, all the non-verbal communication and all such stuff.
06:38So we keep on beating up the other in subtle ways.
06:46We keep on hitting the other, hurting the other.
06:50Why?
06:51Because we are hurt in the first place that the other is not giving me what I really need.
06:56That is at the root of toxicity.
06:58A relationship that is founded on flawed principles in the first place.
07:05And if the relationship is flawed in the first place, then you cannot avoid toxicity later on.
07:12So the common refrain that is there and the poetic expression that says that relationships have
07:25changed.
07:27Poets love to put it that way.
07:29They say, you know, relationships have changed much like the weather.
07:35And then we, in a very nostalgic way, look back at the past and say, you know, she used
07:42to be so great till five years ago and now he or she is no more the same person and so
07:50much has changed.
07:51The fact is nothing really has changed.
07:53It has become more clear.
07:54It's just become more clear, more apparent.
07:57In fact, the thing has become more honest now.
08:00Thing has become more honest.
08:03So we need to, first of all, stop blaming fortune or circumstances.
08:09It's not that the weather has changed.
08:11It's not that outside situations have made one or both persons change into something else.
08:20On the contrary, we continue to remain who we are.
08:23We were ignorant people when the relationship was founded and we are ignorant even right
08:28now.
08:29Actually, we have just not changed.
08:35Actually, we have just not changed.
08:36The relationship has just not changed.
08:39Maybe she's your girlfriend of 20 years vintage.
08:42Maybe the relationship took place when both of you were 16.
08:46And maybe now you are 36 and you keep breaking each other's head.
08:50It appears that in 20 years so much has changed but the fact is that both these 36 years olds
08:55are still 16 or not even 16 in the mental sense.
08:59They have not changed because change in the positive, in the affirmative sense is about growing
09:05up.
09:06You have not grown up.
09:08So the old toxicity is just finding expression.
09:12So it's also maybe if I would understand it, I would understand it that if you're not learning
09:20from life, then life kind of hits you harder and harder and harder.
09:23Yes, yes.
09:24Life keeps peeling layers of your personality.
09:31And beneath all these layers is hidden the toxic core.
09:36What life and time and experience do is that they keep on removing the veneers, the layers
09:43that hide what lies within us.
09:48So things get exposed.
09:49Of course, life also keeps adding layers but then that's a different thing.
09:53Right.
09:54So why do people not leave such relationships once you see that it is a toxic relationship
10:00or maybe they don't see it.
10:02But you can see that day in and day out, you're getting into the same violence, same extortion,
10:11same embarrassment, awkwardness and all.
10:15So why do people just not leave or would you advise them to leave in the first place?
10:21Leave as in physically leave.
10:22Basically, as in at least we separate from each other.
10:24In the sense of not staying together.
10:26Not staying together.
10:27Not being in the relationship.
10:28Not staying in the same house or the same room.
10:30That's what you mean by splitting up.
10:32Right.
10:33The thing is sometimes a lot you do better when you're away from that person.
10:39You see, that might be a temporary kind of measure and that measure might be needed sometimes to
10:49temporarily stop seeing the other or stop staying with the other, living with the other.
10:56But then that won't help much.
11:01The real solution to toxicity is maturity.
11:09This kind of separation is advisable only to those who do not have the appetite for maturity.
11:25If they say that we cannot have the real solution, we do not have it in us to implement the real solution.
11:34Just give us some kind of, you know, a painkiller.
11:40If we can't have a surgery, just give us some analgesic that we can keep on having continuously
11:47and somehow subside our pain, then maybe this would work for them.
11:52Right.
11:53Separate physically, break up or go for a divorce.
11:57But that's not the real solution.
12:01That's not the real solution.
12:02The real solution is to see what is really going on.
12:08The real solution is to first of all heal oneself by acknowledging in an honest way that one
12:16is not a victim, at least not a victim of the other.
12:23One is just suffering due to his own mischief and ignorance.
12:27The moment you stop charging the other or holding the other responsible for your problems,
12:40much changes.
12:43You have to see that you are responsible for the rut you are in.
12:47And not only are you responsible for the rut you are in,
12:51you are probably to some degree also responsible for the rut the other is in.
12:58And then not only do you stop totally vilifying the other,
13:06it is possible that you may even develop some kind of compassion towards the other.
13:16Otherwise, blame and vilification are so easy, are they not?
13:28I am in a toxic relationship usually translates to the other fellow is toxic.
13:35I am in a toxic relationship means the other fellow is toxic.
13:40I do not advise people to separate usually, not because I am an advocate of marital continuity,
13:56not because I am some kind of anti-divorce activist or something.
14:02Not that I am in great awe of the traditional institution of family and marriage.
14:09Not for those reasons.
14:11It is because I see it as an act of escapism and cowardice.
14:18To just drop the other person and run away should be absolutely the last option.
14:31And that last option should be exercised after you have honestly tried everything else and it has failed.
14:39999 out of 1000 times, something would work out for you.
14:47It is not that everything would be insufficient.
14:50When absolutely nothing seems to be working, then fine, leave the other person.
14:57And even then the leaving or separation part, I feel must be temporary.
15:06Never strike someone permanently out of your life.
15:12Nobody deserves this kind of apathy or hatred.
15:18You can do that.
15:19You can very well say, no, no, no.
15:21I do not want to carry this relationship or that person forward anymore with me.
15:26You do that.
15:28But that would leave you a little smaller than what you could have been.
15:40The decision to chuck somebody out from your life would leave you a little poorer.
15:50It would deprive you of a certain richness in life.
15:57So it is not merely the other that you are hurting by kicking him out or by yourself walking out.
16:06You are hurting yourself as well.
16:09An obstinate person is a headache, is a challenge.
16:16When I say obstinate, I mean obstinately toxic.
16:20So an obstinately toxic person is a challenge but also an opportunity, is he not?
16:26Now if you take up that opportunity and really fight hard to win it,
16:36then it leads to your own betterment, enrichment.
16:40You become somebody bigger, deeper, more profound.
16:49So don't try to quickly run away from someone.
16:52That also does not mean that you continue to bear violence or hardships or abuse.
17:04No, not at all, not at all.
17:06Obviously that is something that you have to take care of by whatever means.
17:10The emphasis is on not quitting.
17:24And when I say not quitting, I do not mean that the husband must not quit as husband and the wife must not quit as the wife.
17:31Do quit as a husband, no issues, but never quit as a person.
17:36Don't forget that you have been with this fellow for 2 years or 20 years whatsoever.
17:41You have spent a part of your life with this person.
17:51And it's an opportunity.
17:53It's a part of your basic humanity.
17:56It's a part of being human.
18:00Not to dump the other when the other too is in distress.
18:08You might say, but the other does not look in distress.
18:11The other is in fact an exploiter, a violent person.
18:15One who is doing all these things, shouting, shrieking, biting, hitting, scratching,
18:23is surely not in a good mental state, right?
18:29See whether you can be man enough or woman enough to really redeem that person.
18:40It is very alright, I said, to change the name of the relationship.
18:44You need not carry the same names that you gave yourself at the beginning of the relationship.
18:52In fact, you should give up those names as early as possible because it is those names that are at the root of toxicity.
19:01Don't carry those names.
19:03Drop those names, but don't drop the person, please.
19:07So, husband-wife relationship, violent, let's say.
19:12And so, how do you stop being the wife suddenly?
19:16Or how do you stop being the husband?
19:18If needed, move out of the house.
19:20No issues.
19:21If needed, move out of the house.
19:23See what practical arrangement you can make for the kids.
19:26See whether you want to take the kids out with you.
19:29But then, for that, you need to have financial independence, which I hope you have.
19:33I hope the relationship has not lulled you into a kind of an imaginary comfort
19:40in which you decide not to earn anything and depend on the income of the other.
19:44But that is quite...
19:45If that is happening, then the first thing in gaining freedom from this toxicity is financial independence.
19:51Go find a job for yourself.
19:53Go find a job for yourself.
19:55If needed, quit that house.
19:57But not that person.
20:01Not that person.
20:02Because, you know, permanently blacklisting a person is almost like killing a part of yourself.
20:09Heal.
20:11When a patient comes to you, it probably is easier to declare him a hopeless case and let him expire on the table.
20:24But it requires somebody fantastic to take up the challenge and cure that person.
20:34Like, a lot of times, why people...
20:36When I mean leave, like, you know, when I mean, you know, it's like leave the house in that sense.
20:42A lot of times people, you know, are worried about getting out of that relationship.
20:48Like, you know, suppose one is financially independent and they move out to another.
20:53So, I mean, what I understand is self-love.
20:56Like, first you have to heal and only then can you heal.
20:59Because otherwise, if you've not, you know, healed yourself, then how do you expect to even help the other?
21:06Right.
21:07Right.
21:08See, that will tell you why the relationship is bad in the first place.
21:17You probably enjoy dependency.
21:21You probably have no spiritual basis to the relationship.
21:26Hmm.
21:27Now, this dependency was a very happy thing as long as you were being provided for by that person.
21:36Yeah.
21:37But now the same dependency keeps you arrested and restricted in the household.
21:45Hmm?
21:46So now you don't like it.
21:48You don't like it.
21:49Now you say, oh, what do I do?
21:51I'm so dependent.
21:52How do I move out?
21:54Why don't you state in the same breath that you were quietly and happily enjoying the same dependence for the first 5 or 10 years?
22:04Yeah.
22:05Hmm.
22:06Right.
22:07So always be very, very sure of the solidity of the fundamentals.
22:17Even when everything seems to be going right in a relationship, keep checking.
22:22Have I become dependent?
22:24Have I become exploitative?
22:27Have I started holding expectations?
22:30Has the other started holding expectations?
22:33Is the other blocking my view of the larger universe?
22:40Hmm.
22:41Has the other become too central to my mind, my thoughts?
22:46Hmm.
22:47Has the other started occupying my inner space to an extent that may be called unhealthy?
22:55These are the things that you should check for when there are no troubling symptoms.
23:02Often when the symptoms appear, it is already too late.
23:07Hmm.
23:08I'm getting it.
23:09Have I got it?
23:10I'm getting it.
23:11You're getting it?
23:13I'm getting it.
23:14Relationship going bad.
23:15going bad is a euphemism really. And it does not really clarify what is going on. Relationship
23:26going bad means the minds of the two people in the relationship are bad. And if their
23:34minds are bad, it's not only this one particular mutual relationship that would be bad. All
23:41their relationships with all possible conceivable objects in the universe would either be bad
23:47or waiting to show up as bad. So a bad relationship fundamentally indicates a bad mind. And what
23:57is a bad mind? When I say a bad mind, I'm not talking in the sense of morality or ethics.
24:02A bad mind is one that does not know itself. A mind that has no self-knowledge is a bad
24:08mind. A mind that is obsessed with the world and its enthralling objects is a bad mind.
24:18That's the bad mind. You should have some clarity about what is really going on. You should know
24:24your body, you should know your thoughts, passions, emotions. You should have some inclination towards
24:34self-enquiry. If you do not have it, then you will suffer. Relationships just bring out the ignorance
24:42within us. So we blame relationships. Actually, it is ourselves that we have to blame.
24:47I think Oshuji also said this once that, you know, in relationships you find out who you
24:58are. In who you are. Everybody. I mean, Krishnamurthy was fond of saying this.
25:06But one cannot take that sentence and enter into a relationship to know them.
25:10Everybody is already in relationships. You see, if you are not formally or physically related
25:18to a person, aren't you still related to that person's idea? One might be chasing a girl
25:27and the girl is not responding. So it appears that there is no relationship. But the fact is
25:34that the boy is obsessed with her. And there exists a strong relationship. Maybe not with
25:39the body of the girl, but with the idea of the girl. So Krishnamurthy is perfectly right
25:45when he says one knows himself only in relationships. But then that does not mean that you have to
25:51have an additional relationship to know yourself. You are already neck deep in relationships.
25:58Everybody is. What does that mean? Being that deep in relationship. The inner sense that
26:04we have, that I, the ego thing, it lives in such incompleteness that it is always attached
26:13to somebody. It always describes itself with respect to somebody else. For example,
26:18I am a worker. I am somebody's friend. I am a rich man. I belong to such religion.
26:30So along with the I, there exists something else that helps define the I. That's ego.
26:40Ego is the I sense that cannot define itself without the help of an external object.
26:49Since the external object, the ego starts feeling asphyxiated. It has nothing to really base itself
27:00on. We are always related. We must know what we are doing. Why we are getting related. Why
27:13why I must have this, this or this? What does the universe mean to me? What does this, this piece of
27:21clothing mean to me? I must really ask these questions. Without these questions,
27:25one is pushing himself into a lot of trouble. Another thing I must add, you are talking about why people
27:42continue to be in toxic relationships. Never forget that man is fundamentally pleasure seeking.
27:49The wise ones who knew a few things, they would say that the nature of the self is joy. The nature of self
28:05is joy. And what is joy? Joy is pleasure or happiness that does not depend on anything else. So the nature of
28:17the true and pure self is joy is freedom. Because joy implies no dependence on anything. I am not happy for
28:27some reason. So joy is happiness without a reason. Therefore, joy is happiness without a beginning,
28:34without an end. Therefore, joy is happiness without a definition. The nature of the ego is a little removed
28:41from the nature of the pure self. Pure self is joy. Ego is pleasure seeking. So whatsoever the ego does,
28:52it does for the sake of pleasure. That's what we mean when we say I want to be happy. I want to be happy.
28:59I want to be happy. So when someone says, Oh, I am suffering so much in a toxic relationship and I am yet
29:05continuing to tolerate it. Then he is just stating only half the story, either ignorantly or deliberately.
29:16The fact is, if you are tolerating a toxic relationship, you are deriving some pleasure out of it.
29:22The ego cannot do anything without getting something from that thing. So if a lady comes to you and says,
29:31I get beaten up and all the abusive things happen to me. And yet, you know, I choose to remain in the
29:39household. Then she is not telling you the full story. The full story is, she is still seeing some
29:46benefit in staying put. Otherwise, she would have just walked out long back. So you must ask her,
29:56what is it that you are tolerating all such abuse for? What is the return that you are getting?
30:04She might not be very willing to acknowledge because it is a little awkward, indeed shameful.
30:09But then that payoff surely exists. One has to give up the greed for that payoff. Once you have gone
30:21beyond the greed to get something in return for your humiliation, then you find that you are free of your
30:33humiliation. Nothing really happens to us without our consent. Don't I say that very often? Get rid of greed
30:44and that freedom from greed is spiritual advancement. Otherwise, how can you have freedom from greed?
30:53Freedom from greed is not some kind of a bold decision coming from nowhere.
30:59Freedom from greed comes only from deep clarity about the nature of the self. Once you know who you are,
31:08only then it becomes possible to drop greed. Once you drop greed, you also drop fear and humiliation
31:16and all the misbehavior that you tolerate. Can I say that if you drop greed, you can save yourself
31:26from being exploited? Obviously. Because you see, it's a trade-off. It's a trade-off. You humiliate me.
31:33At the same time, you offer me something. And when I weigh the humiliation against what I'm getting,
31:40I find what I'm getting outweighs the humiliation. So I'm prepared to take the humiliation. Now, outwardly,
31:49and to others, I might keep saying that I do not like what is going on. But the fact is, it's a happy trade-off.
31:57So people don't end relationships because they're... Because there does exist a trade-off which they still take to be beneficial.
32:04If you really want to advise, counsel such people, you'll have to demonstrate to them that the payoff is not positive.
32:11That the kind of abuse that they are tolerating or the kind of loss of life they are bearing is far more damaging
32:28and bigger than any perceived benefits that they might be getting.
32:32So that's where you, you know, draw the line in a sense.
32:44See, the moment it becomes clear to someone that in a particular situation,
32:49he's losing, then you don't have to tell him what to do next.
32:55Just bring that clarity to him that here you are getting so much,
33:00but in the process of getting this much, you are compromising or sacrificing so much.
33:07That's all. Now the fellow will decide for himself and act on his own.
33:12And when in this case, one is made to realize that, you know, the take that you're losing out way more
33:20than what you're getting. Is there an... That is what... Like, do you... Is there a... Is there a leaving out?
33:27Do you leave the relationship or do you understand this, heal yourself and then come back and help the other?
33:34It's not a... There is no absolute answer possible to this.
33:38Right. Going to the basis of your question. When you say, the relationship has exploitation in it.
33:52What does exploitation mean? My self-interest is different from your self-interest.
33:58Therefore, I can eat you up to maximize my self-interest. That is exploitation.
34:04Correct. What is that the basis of exploitation? The concept, the feeling that I am different from you,
34:11my self-interest is separate from your self-interest, right? Now this is exploitation.
34:21To cure exploitation, if I recommend walking out as the only way possible, then what am I saying?
34:31I am defending my self-interest by walking out, quitting you, dumping you.
34:38Am I then not still the same person who was previously playing the game of exploitation?
34:45At the root of exploitation is the feeling of separation, division.
34:50Separation, okay. Right? I am me, you are you. I can exploit you and be a bigger me. That's exploitation.
34:58I walk out. And why did I walk out? To take care of my personal peace.
35:01Am I still not the one who was thinking previously in the language of division?
35:12So this walking out then will not be very beneficial.
35:16Therefore, one has to take quitting or walking out just as a temporary thing.
35:23Right? Freedom from exploitation is very incomplete without compassion.
35:30Not only you have to end your own exploitation, you also have to bring compassion to the other.
35:38And these two must go hand in hand. Obviously, there might be some phase lag between these two.
35:46One may come first, the other may come later. There might even be a gap of many years between these two.
35:52But these two will exist together. You cannot have just one of them.
35:59You cannot say that to save my skin, I broke out of the house like one breaks out of a jail.
36:05And then I never turn back to look at what is happening in the house.
36:08It doesn't happen this way. It cannot happen this way. If you break out of the house just to take care
36:15of your own self-interest, then wherever you go, you would find that you are still caught in the
36:24cycle of exploitation and suffering. If you really want to end exploitation and suffering,
36:30then you have to take care of yourself and also try to do as much good to the other as possible.
36:39So it's a full circle. It's a full circle. You cannot just take care of only yourself. You see,
36:45if I take care of just myself, then how am I different from the exploiter?
36:53Is he not following the same principle? He too is saying I am taking care of just myself. And I say,
36:59I too want to just take care of myself. So I am walking out, I will go settle in some other place and be happy.
37:05So you become the exploiter.
37:10You become the exploiter. And now the exploiter has fully won. He has totally converted you.
37:15He has made one of him.
37:17Yeah. Now you belong to his creed.
37:21So the way to get out of the relationship would be to understand?
37:25To not remain the person who entered the relationship. That's the way to spiritually break up.
37:35When you break up in the material way, you leave the house. When you break up in the spiritual way,
37:40you leave who you are. That's a great breakup. And in this breakup, the other person will not even know
37:46that you have broken up. Because externally, you will appear just the same. Internally, you are no more
37:52the same person. Break up. I didn't break up with you. I broke up with myself. Fine. So, you cannot really
38:01charge me or blame me.
38:08The art of breaking up.
38:14God bless you.
38:38You
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