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TV트랜스크립트
00:00:0015
00:00:01아는 것을 새롭게
00:00:10TVN 스토리
00:00:30아우라
00:00:35어쩌더러 오늘 찾아와주신 여러분들 환영합니다
00:00:38저는 김상중입니다
00:00:41이렇게 여러분들이 격하게 환영을 해주시는 걸 보니까
00:00:49아마 지금 여러분들은 이런 생각을 하고 계실지 모르겠습니다
00:00:53오 김상중씨가 화면보다 실물이 낫네
00:00:57생각보다 젊네
00:01:0110년 전 이맘때쯤에는 지금보다 훨씬 나았는데
00:01:0610년이라는 세월이 저를 조금 변화를 시킨 것 같습니다
00:01:11그래서 앞으로 19년 기념으로 특별한 강연을 준비했는데
00:01:15이번 시각에는 한국을 넘어서 글로벌 석학을 모시려고 합니다
00:01:2210년 전 age 30
00:01:28그래서 here, let me show you one thing
00:01:29we're trying to like stir up the pot
00:01:32so that
00:01:3211년 전에
00:01:3512년 전 age 30
00:01:3720년 전 age 30
00:01:39이 년은 아픈
00:01:43모든 것들을 배우고 싶었습니다.
00:01:48모든 것들을 배우고 싶었습니다.
00:02:13생각이 면허게اء!
00:02:18안녕하세요!
00:02:21안녕하세요.
00:02:24안녕하세요.
00:02:25안녕하세요.
00:02:27제가 아까 대기실에서 준비하시는
00:02:29이 두 분의 모습을 잠깐 보니까
00:02:32굉장히 다정하셨어요.
00:02:34보니까 다정해야죠.
00:02:38당연한거죠.
00:02:40그런데 교수님들의 강의 영상이 유튜브 누적 조회에서만 무려 5억 뷰를 자랑합니다.
00:02:48이 두 분의 인기는 미국에서도 대단하지만 특히나 우리 한국인들 사이에서 엄청납니다.
00:02:55혹시 두 분 한국에서 인기 실감하시나요?
00:02:59아.. 예.. 아주.. 정말..
00:03:06제가 자신의 인기 일상 보험으로 올해 한국인의 인기가 많아요.
00:03:09많은 사람들에게 인기 일어난 건가요.
00:03:14이것은 미국에서 인기 일상에서 일어난 것 같습니다.
00:03:17어떤 사람은 대단하여,
00:03:20인기가 일어난 곳에서 인기 일어난 기회에서 인기 일어난 것과,
00:03:29이스트랄리아, 프랑스, 러시아, 전략적으로.
00:03:33그런데 한국에서는요.
00:03:35우리 교수님들은 정말 많은 나라를 다니셨을 텐데
00:03:39그 중에서도 특히 우리 한국에 특별하게 관심을 가지게 된 계기가 있으신가요?
00:03:47You know, I first came to know Korea in 1984.
00:03:53I was just a young student.
00:03:56I met a Korean graduate student from Busan.
00:03:59And there weren't many Korean graduate students at the time studying in the United States.
00:04:05And most importantly, I ate 김치 for the first time.
00:04:11And then it became my favorite dish in Korea.
00:04:20I was going to make the comment about you.
00:04:24Being the 김치 ambassador all these years later.
00:04:27Yeah, you really feel like you.
00:04:31Wait, so we're beating each other?
00:04:33Yes, okay.
00:04:35Two days ago, I was invited to be a permanent honorary 김치 ambassador for the nation of Korea.
00:04:43Yeah.
00:04:43Yeah.
00:04:44Wow.
00:04:49사실은 누구보다 가장 먼저 BTS의 성공을 우리 쌤 교수님이 예측을 하셨습니다.
00:04:56어떻게 하셨지?
00:04:57혹시 저에 대해서도 아시나요?
00:05:03저는 영어를 잘 못하지만 이럴 때 할 수 있는 영어는 이게 아니겠습니까?
00:05:27리얼리?
00:05:33그러면 우리 로리 교수님은 한국 문화 중에 어떤 부분에서 매력을 느끼시나요?
00:05:39I just, I say that there's a way that Koreans hold themselves and interact with each other and with us, with others that is just so notable, subtle, understated, respectful, modest.
00:05:57I understand Koreans are passionate and all of those things too, but there's just a way that we're welcomed that feels very uniquely part of your culture.
00:06:07아, 쌤 로리 교수님, 오늘 준비하신 강연 주제는 어떤 건가요?
00:06:13Why we continue to return to Korea?
00:06:16What is it about Korea?
00:06:18As a nation is very interesting to us.
00:06:21As a society, we are not going to solve this problem, individual problems.
00:06:49And this angst and anxiety.
00:06:53But the competition, the fierce competition, lost their language, they've lost their traditions, so they've left those things behind and they've become something else.
00:07:02And what is going to happen to Korea?
00:07:06One thing that we were going to say to start is we see not only are we always comparing our experience in the West with our experience here,
00:07:20we're also always noticing the similarities and differences between what we see in society and what we see between us in a marriage.
00:07:29Because relationships are like society.
00:07:34It's people coming together.
00:07:36And so there's always this tension between the things that are similar about us and the things that are different about us.
00:07:43And same in society, right?
00:07:45The ways we're different, the ways we're similar.
00:07:47How do we organize and harmonize our lives and ourselves in order to get along and live together, right?
00:07:56And so that's part of an underlying theme of everything we're going to talk about today.
00:08:02And I think because so much of our work is intertwined.
00:08:07Our thinking is intertwined.
00:08:09Our ideas are intertwined.
00:08:11I'm much more of an outward sociological thinker.
00:08:15And Lori is more of an inward psychological thinker.
00:08:19And we balance each other out.
00:08:21And marriage is so important.
00:08:24We thought, we're going to introduce you to ourselves.
00:08:32We met when Lori was 21 and I was 25.
00:08:42And we have to tell them, I was teaching a class in sociology.
00:08:47And Lori was a student in the class.
00:08:50And I, Lori came to my office.
00:08:57Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, don't say that.
00:09:00The semester that I took his class, I had never taken a sociology class.
00:09:07And never intended to take a sociology class.
00:09:10And someone said, you should take a sociology class.
00:09:13And they said, take this one.
00:09:15Okay.
00:09:16And when I first met Sam as the teacher, what I said, what went through my mind was.
00:09:24This is a person I wouldn't even want as a friend.
00:09:28Wow.
00:09:29Wow.
00:09:30Wow.
00:09:31Wow.
00:09:32Wow.
00:09:33Wow.
00:09:34So I said, hey, this is going to be a great class.
00:09:38Yeah.
00:09:39You're going to love this class.
00:09:41So four weeks into the semester, she came to my office hours and said, I don't love your class.
00:09:49I don't like you.
00:09:50Oh.
00:09:51Oh.
00:09:52Wow.
00:09:53Wow.
00:09:54It's amazing.
00:09:55It's amazing.
00:09:56And when he said, you're right, I can see that, something shifted in my entire being, I guess.
00:10:06I guess no one ever listened to me ever in my life or ever agreed with me because it was life changing.
00:10:15Oh.
00:10:16It was happening without my consent.
00:10:20I was just drawn in and same, Sam was drawn in.
00:10:25We fell in love.
00:10:26Yeah.
00:10:27Yeah.
00:10:28Really hard.
00:10:29But we had this big difference between us and we were trying to work it out.
00:10:34Because I was going to be going to South America to do my research.
00:10:40This is a photo of me in Ecuador.
00:10:49And Lori was going off to study her for her PhDs.
00:10:54So we were loving and leaving.
00:10:57And for me, the idea of someone loving me and deciding that they were going to go away
00:11:03for a year in the time when there was no cell phones, no good phone coverage, letters were difficult to get.
00:11:10It was, he was gone completely for a year.
00:11:13And I think, how do you love someone and leave them at the same time?
00:11:17This was impossible for me to make sense of.
00:11:20And so I was always trying to exit the relationship.
00:11:24It's hard to describe because if you think about for yourself something that is irreconcilable
00:11:30between you and someone else or you, your group and another group, that was what it was between us.
00:11:37Irreconcilable.
00:11:38You either stay or you go.
00:11:40So what happened was, in these times, Lori wrote letters to me and I wrote letters to her every single day.
00:11:51You know, we were separated for really almost about a year and a half.
00:11:55We all, we had these letters and we stayed connected.
00:11:59But still, there are things that are very difficult for us to really understand.
00:12:04I said, hey, let's go to counseling.
00:12:07Let's go to therapy together.
00:12:09So Lori, Lori thought the therapist was going to tell me what a bad person I am.
00:12:14But instead, what the therapist did was look at Lori and say...
00:12:18On day one.
00:12:20On day one.
00:12:21Why are you with a man who you know...
00:12:25Why are you choosing...
00:12:26Why are you choosing to be with a man who you know is going to leave you?
00:12:31Whoa.
00:12:32Oh.
00:12:33And I thought, I'm choosing this.
00:12:36Oh my God.
00:12:38Wow.
00:12:39Wow.
00:12:40I...
00:12:42And I said...
00:12:44Whoa.
00:12:46Okay.
00:12:47Please respond.
00:12:51So much so that we don't even think you can have a relationship if you're not having conflict.
00:12:57Because it was so important to creating what is our marriage.
00:13:01And you know, to this day, still, periodically, we will see a counselor or someone who can just kind of help fine tune things.
00:13:12And it helps us to really maintain this connection.
00:13:15But also, because we work together, we live together, we have to make sure that we get along.
00:13:23And so, that began our marriage.
00:13:28And in fact, it was in that therapist's office where we truly had our wedding.
00:13:34And where we got married.
00:13:36Well, hang on.
00:13:37Let's show this.
00:13:40Yeah.
00:13:41So we got married.
00:13:44We decided to get married.
00:13:45But one of the things that became so clear was that...
00:13:50You finally fall in love with someone who you really care about.
00:13:55And you commit to your lives together.
00:13:58And then you find...
00:13:59I find out.
00:14:00I realize.
00:14:01We all realize.
00:14:02It's not forever.
00:14:03Like, it's actually still going to end.
00:14:06And that became a really...
00:14:09Just a large conversation between us.
00:14:12A big wait.
00:14:13A big wait.
00:14:14Because one of us is going to die and leave the other behind.
00:14:18Because we've organized our lives around one another so much.
00:14:23That death would be just such emptiness between us.
00:14:30So, in 1996, we traveled to Eastern Europe.
00:14:35And we got a little hotel room near the castle in Prague.
00:14:39And in the end, what we did was we wrote a book that's called Becoming Eternal.
00:14:48And Becoming Eternal is something that Lori said one day in one of our letters.
00:14:58She said, I just want to find a way to become eternal.
00:15:02And so, we wrote...
00:15:05The book is 365 essays using one of the quotes from a letter.
00:15:11And then we, together, we sat and wrote out an essay that one of us will read each day for one year after the other one dies.
00:15:25Well, how did I feel that?
00:15:30So...
00:15:37You know, can I say about Becoming Eternal?
00:15:41I wrote about Becoming Eternal in the sweet spot.
00:15:45And it's the first time we ever publicly talked about it that we never talk about Becoming Eternal.
00:15:53So, for some reason, I felt I need to share this.
00:15:56I can share this with the Korean audience.
00:15:58So, here's the thing.
00:16:00Even though there isn't a forever, right?
00:16:04Somehow, though, we're still returning to the relationship over and over, right?
00:16:10When we realize there's no forever, we could just go the other way.
00:16:14Instead, we just keep returning because it matters.
00:16:20It continues to matter that we're together, that we build this relationship in spite of mortality.
00:16:27And I think this is very much like all the things we do in society together, right?
00:16:33We don't know what we're doing, why we're here, but we keep building together.
00:16:37Yeah.
00:16:38And I think that marriage and society really are held together by relationships.
00:16:44For us as sociologists, we find relationships in Korea here to be really fascinating.
00:16:52And in particular, this idea of what is often referred to as a collectivist culture or a communitarian culture.
00:17:02Professor, I have a question.
00:17:04So, what is the exact meaning of collectivist culture?
00:17:07How can you understand it?
00:17:09That's a very perfect question to keep us going.
00:17:12Thank you.
00:17:13Thank you.
00:17:14We walk through the world with ideas about right and wrong and good and bad.
00:17:19This is morality and this is ethics.
00:17:22And so, our questions about right and wrong are always shaped by two questions.
00:17:31Is it right and wrong for me?
00:17:35Or is it right and wrong for other people?
00:17:38And in cultures that are individualist oriented, the people tend to see the world through the question of, ah, what is best and what is right and what is good for me as an individual?
00:17:57And people from a more collectivist or communitarian oriented culture, what is right, what is best, what is good for other people?
00:18:11That is the essential difference.
00:18:14Everything that we do is in this balance between other people and ourselves.
00:18:22So, for the panel actually, one question is, when you think about a collectivist culture, what comes to mind for you as Koreans?
00:18:33I have a lot of expectations, and I feel that I can take pride and be a loyalist.
00:18:38But your culture can try to meet the same.
00:18:41You know, people from a little bit, but when you think about a collectivist culture, so you can summarize them.
00:18:46You know, it's a very biggest challenge.
00:18:51I think about it in the same direction.
00:18:53저도 좀 비슷한 맥락에서 좀 활발하게 많은 분들이 모여서 자원봉사를 다니는 그런 문화를 봤을 때
00:19:01남을 돕는 것을 되게 기꺼이 생각하고 실천하는 모습에서 되게 멋있다는 느낌을 많이 받았습니다.
00:19:09성범 씨는요?
00:19:11그리고 또 한국인들 하면 제일 큰 특징이 정이 있다는 거잖아요.
00:19:14아 중요하죠.
00:19:15정확히 영어로 번역하기 되게 어려운 단어라고 우리만 갖고 있는 거라고 하던데
00:19:19저는 사회책으로 배우긴 했지만 IMF 때 금모으기 운동이라던가
00:19:24본 적 없죠?
00:19:31네 본 적은 없습니다.
00:19:32여기 실제 내신 분들 몇 분 계세요?
00:19:34없었습니다 세상에.
00:19:35네 여기 계세요.
00:19:37혹시 금모으기 운동 때 금내보신 분?
00:19:40큰형님들이.
00:19:40와 우리 세상의 히로들입니다.
00:19:43실제 IMF 때 우리나라 사는 분들이죠.
00:19:46이런 게 중요합니다.
00:19:50한국에서 한국에서 한국에서 한국에서 한국에서 한국을 읽은 수 있다고 생각합니다.
00:19:55And the examples you just gave are 3 of the examples that I often see in textbooks about this.
00:19:59네요.
00:20:01한국에서 한국은 한국을 진짜 잘했고입니다.
00:20:07한국은 대유시의 말이에요?
00:20:09What does this mean?
00:20:10아, 특별한 이 Venn diagram에.
00:20:14I would say, as an individualist and collective society,
00:20:17we can see here just like we can see two individuals and their relationship.
00:20:26What happens here in a place like Korea is,
00:20:29this part in the center gets a little stronger.
00:20:36Whereas in our country,
00:20:38this part still gets a little weaker and actually the rings push apart.
00:20:44그래서 이 예를 들면,
00:20:49제가 처음에 봤을 때,
00:20:51한일에, 이 마트에 갔을 때,
00:20:55이 마트에 왔을 때,
00:20:58이 마트에 왔을 때,
00:21:00어떻게든이 닫았을까요?
00:21:03몇 년 전에,
00:21:05이 마트에 왔을 때,
00:21:09large stores, large entities will close down a couple of days every month.
00:21:17Wow. Yeah, this really is important.
00:21:20Which is the Distribution Industry Development Act.
00:21:27So that the small stores, the small establishments don't get put out of business.
00:21:33That's amazing.
00:21:35You know the store Costco, or Walmart, or these big stores?
00:21:41If you told average Americans that twice a month, all of those stores were going to close on a Sunday,
00:21:53Americans would have a revolution.
00:21:56No. You think they would have a revolution?
00:21:59I think it would be close.
00:22:01Oh, I can't imagine.
00:22:03You will sacrifice your own individual needs for the greater good of society.
00:22:11We do it as well in the United States.
00:22:14We do these kinds of things, but you do it much more often.
00:22:20I'll give you another example.
00:22:24So, homelessness, where you have a homeless problem in Seoul, such as the person in this photo by Seoul Station.
00:22:34This is terrible. It's sad. It's unfortunate.
00:22:38In Washington D.C. last summer, I was there for a couple days.
00:22:42Yeah, every park, every corner, because people were outside of the small stores, like waiting to ask people for food when they came out.
00:22:50And it was, you couldn't go anywhere without seeing homeless people and literally stepping over people in certain places.
00:22:58So, but let's put this together in a different kind of way.
00:23:04If Seoul had the same homeless problem that Los Angeles has, different size populations, so if you change the population, you have the same problem.
00:23:15You would have 120,000 homeless people in Seoul.
00:23:23That right outside this building, there would be homeless people sleeping in the corners.
00:23:30In an individualist-oriented society, you see, they're responsible for their homelessness.
00:23:37But in a humanitarian or collectivist society, it's all of our problem.
00:23:43Here's another one.
00:23:44Yeah.
00:23:45Like, gun homicides.
00:23:47What?
00:23:48We have 50, 50, 5-0 gun homicides every 24 hours in the United States.
00:23:56And what we are saying is, this is not our problem.
00:24:07Oh!
00:24:08You think that.
00:24:09This is individual problems.
00:24:12You go solve it.
00:24:14As a society, we, we are not going to solve this problem.
00:24:18But yeah, this is what we are left with, is we can't make decisions together that would serve the entire country.
00:24:25Because we can't agree.
00:24:28And you don't accept this.
00:24:30This is just, it's not going to happen here.
00:24:33Why?
00:24:34Because you are a community of people who connect to one another.
00:24:39You live together and you feel a sense of responsibility toward one another.
00:24:46So here's another thing.
00:24:48You know, crime.
00:24:49This is a picture of Bogota in Colombia.
00:24:52And we have a house in Colombia, in Bogota, Colombia.
00:24:57It's right in the center, this yellow area toward the top.
00:25:03And it's a relatively safe zone.
00:25:06But it's not a safe zone.
00:25:09So in every, all of our friends in Colombia have had their phones taken.
00:25:15Do this.
00:25:16You don't hold it here.
00:25:17This is crime.
00:25:18You put it in your front pocket.
00:25:19You don't put it in your back pocket.
00:25:21Oh, really?
00:25:24Here, in Seoul, so look at these crime zones.
00:25:27Here's Seoul.
00:25:28Here's Seoul.
00:25:30Here's Seoul.
00:25:32Here's Seoul.
00:25:33Here's Seoul.
00:25:34Here's Seoul.
00:25:35Here's Seoul.
00:25:36Here's Seoul.
00:25:37Here's Seoul.
00:25:38Here's Seoul.
00:25:39Here's Seoul.
00:25:40Here's Seoul.
00:25:41Here's Seoul.
00:25:42Here's Seoul.
00:25:43So why do we continue to come back to Korea?
00:25:46Because the moment we land, we just feel free.
00:25:49I put my money in my pocket.
00:25:51I have my wallet.
00:25:52I can carry my passport around if I need it.
00:25:55It doesn't matter.
00:25:57And it feels there's just something here.
00:26:00Here's, you know, these are, this is examples, right?
00:26:04This is here in Korea.
00:26:06You know, there's a spill on the roadway and people are coming to pick it up.
00:26:10Now, this happens in the United States.
00:26:13Of a truck that turns over and people jumping out of their cars and taking everything and running away with it.
00:26:20Now, you're also going to have examples of this, but you have many more examples of the other thing.
00:26:28How often has it happened that there's a truck spill and Koreans all come and they steal everything and they run away with it?
00:26:35Here's the thing.
00:26:38You know, this collectivism doesn't come from nowhere.
00:26:42It has to come from the fact that people need other people.
00:26:46You know, and we see this in rice farming economies, especially where there's irrigation that is collective irrigation.
00:26:55You know, in rice farming, when you irrigate, you need your neighbors in order to successfully irrigate all of the crops in a particular field.
00:27:06You know, the idea is that in Ecuador, where I did my research, it was on how do we get people in rural Ecuador to cooperate with one another.
00:27:20But in Ecuador, there was never a rice farming economy like this.
00:27:25And so, therefore, people never needed one another in order to get along, in order to build these relationships that were dependent, absolutely necessary.
00:27:37Because people didn't need one another historically.
00:27:41And then, you know, so therefore, you were able to make kimchi in the way that you do.
00:27:46It's all of these things that bring people together.
00:27:49If you don't make kimchi with your neighbors and your kimchi crop doesn't survive, you won't survive.
00:27:56And so it's best for everybody to collectively come together and work together.
00:28:01And a communitarian culture that works very well is an excellent culture and an excellent way to be.
00:28:09So therefore, you know, we see that this communitarianism here, it comes from somewhere.
00:28:16눈치.
00:28:29This, it's like, 눈치 is a thing that is, I remember when Kim Me-yong, MK, came to my class many years ago.
00:28:38And I just asked her this question, hey, explain 눈치 to my class.
00:28:42학교에 대해 설명해 주시기 바랍니다.
00:28:46그런데 논치에 대해 알아보았습니다.
00:28:50아마 가장 큰 이유는
00:28:52우리는 한국에서 계속 돌아가고 싶습니다.
00:28:54우리는 논치에 대해 알아보았습니다.
00:28:57그래서 논치에 대해 알아보았습니다.
00:28:59저희는 한국에 대해 알아보았습니다.
00:29:02아주 높은 사람입니다.
00:29:05한국에 대해 알아보았습니다.
00:29:08하나는 우리의 친구입니다.
00:29:10we were invited to this meal.
00:29:12Lori and I were sitting together on this side,
00:29:16someone here, someone here, and then someone here,
00:29:19and I felt like Lori was not
00:29:22practicing...
00:29:28I'm not Korean.
00:29:30She was not working with Elon Xi.
00:29:32Okay, Lori was being Lori.
00:29:34I was working with what is my social intelligence
00:29:38in U.S., right?
00:29:40which is trying to understand how to break the ice with people,
00:29:44how to get them to speak more about themselves personally.
00:29:48You were talking pretty loudly and fast,
00:29:51which is what you do. You're from New Jersey.
00:29:57This is bad nunchi.
00:29:59And so I tried to kick her under the table,
00:30:05but she didn't understand.
00:30:07그래서 제가, OK.
00:30:09그래서 저는,
00:30:09저는,
00:30:11제가
00:30:12넌치
00:30:14그래서 저는 우리의 친구가
00:30:15왔습니다.
00:30:16다음 주에
00:30:17그리고 I said,
00:30:18Hey.
00:30:18그리고 우리의 우리의
00:30:19둘 다 함께.
00:30:20우리의 둘 다 함께.
00:30:21I said,
00:30:21Hey,
00:30:22can you just be honest
00:30:23with us?
00:30:25그 meal
00:30:26yesterday,
00:30:27I had the idea
00:30:28that Lori was
00:30:29exhibiting
00:30:29very
00:30:30kind of
00:30:31low levels
00:30:31of
00:30:32넌치.
00:30:34우리의 친구가
00:30:35무엇이
00:30:35뭐예요 뭐예요
00:30:39캬
00:30:40권루는
00:30:46Because Yeah, Laurie
00:30:48wasn't using good nunch이
00:30:49She has to лied
00:30:51it was fine
00:30:54but she's saying something that will be hurting
00:30:56disrespectful maybe
00:30:57That would hurt her and to the relationship
00:30:59and so so then i'm practicing bad nunchie
00:31:03여기가 있는 사진입니다.
00:31:07우리가 이것을 보호하는 것입니다.
00:31:10제가 보여주기 때문에
00:31:13왜 이렇게 많은 사람들이
00:31:15여기가 있는 바�acks을 입고 있는 것입니다.
00:31:17물론 여러분이 말했고
00:31:19왜냐하면
00:31:20아무것도 없다고 생각했고
00:31:23저는 한국에서 왔습니다.
00:31:27한국에서의 대신이 있습니다.
00:31:29한국에서 한국에서 일어나는 것 같다.
00:31:31하지만, 한국에서 일어나는 것 같다.
00:31:34이곳은 한국에서 일어나는 것 같다.
00:31:36그리고, 이는 정말 정말 cool.
00:31:39그리고, 이는 정말 정말 놀랍게 이해하기도 하고.
00:31:42하지만, 어제 우리의 방을 이낙니다.
00:31:46그리고, 미국에서...
00:31:48그래서, 나는 더...
00:31:51...한가...
00:31:53...아버지...
00:31:54...아버지...
00:31:55...아버지...
00:31:56...아버지...
00:31:57candidates qstate
00:32:02how me life to me
00:32:13apower i want them to problems
00:32:15you can't sit back there you have
00:32:16to sit up here
00:32:17and ice i want to show them
00:32:19no you're equal to me
00:32:21i value you really i will sit
00:32:24in the seat but with then i
00:32:26그래서 그래서 저는zony치고 있었습니다.
00:32:30그래서 제가 kroon치에 인기를 통해서
00:32:32아...
00:32:33아...
00:32:37지메ous이..
00:32:39안에서 저녁을 거친다.
00:32:40그래서 제가 이었에 연결이 conversations 있는 것입니다.
00:32:44그리고 아직도 잊지 않습니까?
00:32:46아, 저의 다녀.
00:32:47아직은 저한테 물어본 적이 있는 것입니다.
00:32:49한국에서 뇨을 대결하는 것이 아니라
00:32:50한국에서 이었습니다.
00:32:52You have one word, one word, nunchi.
00:32:57We don't have a word.
00:32:59It's one, it's so complicated.
00:33:02How about foreign audience, those of you?
00:33:06Is there anything about Korean nunchi culture
00:33:09that really surprised you after coming to Korea?
00:33:12네, 안녕하세요.
00:33:13저는 러시아에서 스물 살 리자라고 합니다.
00:33:17어학단에서 공부하지 1년 됐어요.
00:33:22우리 어학단에서 많은 나라 사람들이 모였다 보니
00:33:27민감함 주제가 있을 수 있는데
00:33:31그럴 때 우리 선생님들이 조심하게 이야기를 하십니다.
00:33:39I really see that.
00:33:41Yeah, that's cool.
00:33:42Yeah, thank you for that.
00:33:44Do you all agree?
00:33:46Are you a nation?
00:33:47Is Korea a nation of nunchi?
00:33:49저는 이게 당연한 줄 알았어요.
00:33:50전 세계인들이 다 눈치를 볼 거라고 생각했는데
00:33:52그게 아닌 게
00:33:53영국 축구 선수 중에 유명한 선수가
00:33:55제시링가드라고 있는데
00:33:57한국 생활하려고
00:33:58눈치 관련 책을 사서 읽으면서 공부를 한다는 거예요.
00:34:09한국 와서 눈치 없는 사람 되게 싫어가지고
00:34:11이런 거 보고 좀 충격을 받았죠.
00:34:17저 궁금한 거 진짜 짧은 건데
00:34:18하나만 더 물어봐도 될까요?
00:34:20네 명의 사람이 있는데요.
00:34:23다섯 개의 초콜릿이 있습니다.
00:34:26마지막 남은 하나는 주인이 누구죠?
00:34:30벌써 불편해.
00:34:34다 배고파 똑같아요.
00:34:36기본값은 똑같아요.
00:34:37다 배고프고 나이도 똑같고 성별도 똑같습니다.
00:34:40맞아요.
00:34:41맞아요.
00:34:42맞아요.
00:34:43맞아요.
00:34:44맞아요.
00:34:45맞아요.
00:34:46맞아요.
00:34:47맞아요.
00:34:48맞아요.
00:34:49맞아요.
00:34:50맞아요.
00:34:51그렇죠.
00:34:52맞아요.
00:34:53맞아요.
00:34:54그리고 모든 분들에게 말하자면, 한국은 절대 말하자면,
00:34:58그렇게 말하자면, 제가 먹을 수 있는 것 같아요.
00:35:01왜냐하면, 그렇게 말할 수 있는 것 같아요.
00:35:03그런데, 미국에서 말할 수 있는 것 같아요.
00:35:06이렇게 말할 수 있는 것 같아요.
00:35:08OK, I will have it.
00:35:09이것은 좋은 것 같아요.
00:35:11I could do that.
00:35:12네.
00:35:13네.
00:35:14네.
00:35:15네.
00:35:16네.
00:35:17네.
00:35:18네.
00:35:19네.
00:35:20I think many people in the world, books are written about it.
00:35:23It's a very intriguing facet and feature of social life here.
00:35:28All right, one of the things that I think is important is that the part of Nunchi,
00:35:33at least from an outsider's perspective, that is the reading the room aspect of things,
00:35:38is what all people do in social life.
00:35:41I mean, the social intelligence aspect is what all people are doing.
00:35:47But we're reading differently, right?
00:35:50And in a collectivist culture, you really need lots of social intelligence.
00:35:56Because if you are so concerned with people around you, in a more collectivist-oriented
00:36:03culture, you have to be really clear about who's in charge.
00:36:08Because you see, you're all in this together.
00:36:12And so it's more difficult to understand who's in charge.
00:36:17And in an individualist-oriented culture, it's like, it's going to be much more clear,
00:36:21like, who's in charge?
00:36:22What are they going to do?
00:36:24What are their roles?
00:36:25How much power do they have?
00:36:26I think one thing that we do agree about is the indirectness of the way the Nunchi operates,
00:36:34compared to the directness that is really required of us in the United States.
00:36:40Yeah.
00:36:41In an individualist, but it doesn't have to be fine-tuned in the way that it does here.
00:36:47And I said, well, this is a nation of Nunchi.
00:36:50Here, you have to be practicing Nunchi without practicing Nunchi.
00:36:54You have to be doing it without even thinking about it.
00:36:57We are, just have a, talk about the passion for education here in Korea.
00:37:14Wow.
00:37:15Just that phrase, passion, I mean, the word passion is, means both desire and suffering,
00:37:22right?
00:37:23Education here in Korea actually does have those two components of just wanting to grow
00:37:30and learn and be the best at it, and also to really struggle and suffer with all of that
00:37:35it takes to become educated here.
00:37:40So we wanted to start with just that idea.
00:37:46You know, the United States is on top.
00:37:48First off, understand, Korea has become a global superpower.
00:37:56And many people around the world see Korea this way.
00:37:59And, you know, they are seeing Korea in ways that very often Koreans don't necessarily see
00:38:06themselves.
00:38:07But what's important is the United States, we became rich, we became really wealthy, because
00:38:12we went out around the world and we made things happen for us.
00:38:18We, in large part, took things from other people in our benefit throughout the later part
00:38:26of the 19th century and the 20th century.
00:38:29But Korea didn't do that.
00:38:33You know, you did this on your own.
00:38:36You didn't go conquer other nations.
00:38:38Right?
00:38:39You did this on your own.
00:38:40You did it through hard work and you did it through education.
00:38:47And this is really worth noting for us as professors, and for me as someone who studies the political
00:38:54economy and development of the global world, so there's something in this.
00:39:06And this might be that hidden, the hidden things underneath the surface that we can't see.
00:39:13But the competition, the fierce competition that exists in the same space, the space of education,
00:39:22and yet underneath it is a fire.
00:39:25That's education.
00:39:26That's mass education.
00:39:27That's mass education.
00:39:28And there's a lot of focus on memorization here in Korea.
00:39:32You know, because especially when you think about the CSAT exam, the SUNAN exam, what you're
00:39:38trying to do is figure out who's going to get to go to the top universities, the sky universities.
00:39:45And the only fair way to do that is to have a score.
00:39:49And a single score is going to make that happen.
00:39:53But then what that means is, and so they're going to memorize and focus on the facts, but
00:39:58that's not learned, that's not thinking.
00:40:01You know, as another part of the comparison, we were talking about this with our Penn State
00:40:05students and Kongok students over the past couple of weeks, and we talked about cheating.
00:40:11The American students were saying, we don't care if our friends cheat.
00:40:17Korean students were like, oh, my God, how would you help someone to be better than you?
00:40:23And our students were like, whatever, I'm still going to get my grade.
00:40:26OK.
00:40:27It was fascinating.
00:40:28But the Korean students were, no.
00:40:30So a question for the panel here.
00:40:32Did you study hard in school?
00:40:34In school?
00:40:35What?
00:40:36Be honest.
00:40:37열심히 하는 사람들은 자기들을 열심히 했다고 안 하더라고요.
00:40:43진짜 잘했던 사람들은, 근데 저는 진짜 열심히 했습니다.
00:40:47저는 그들을 따라잡기 위해서 정말 열심히 했어요.
00:40:52아무리 그렇게 보셔도 열심히 했거든요.
00:40:56How was it to feel?
00:40:57Did you feel like you had to study hard?
00:41:00Like if you didn't study hard, your lives would be just ruined?
00:41:04And I didn't do it, but I did it.
00:41:08I think you all talked about it correctly.
00:41:12I didn't study hard, but I did it.
00:41:14If you didn't succeed, then my mom would lose your life.
00:41:18So you gave me a lot of effort.
00:41:23The biggest responsibility is the man.
00:41:26I was doing it when I received it.
00:41:28You've watched a movie called Sky Castle,
00:41:31제가 나온 고등학교가 그것보다 더 심했거든요?
00:41:34잠깐 잠깐 고등학교 대학교를 좀 말씀해 주시겠습니까?
00:41:36아 고등학교는 한국 과학 영재학교라고
00:41:39I'm from Korea Science Academy
00:41:41It was a gifted high school
00:41:43그리고 대학교는 KAIST라는 곳을 나왔고요
00:41:47It's a Korean MIT
00:41:50쉽지 않은 곳인데요
00:41:52아 근데 KAIST보다 더 심한 경쟁 환경이 있다 보니까
00:41:56공부를 안 하고 싶어도
00:41:58옆에 있는 애들 보면은
00:41:59괜히 주눅들어서 더 열심히 하게 되고
00:42:02그런 게 있었어요
00:42:03부모님이 좀...
00:42:05부모님은 오히려 워워 하셨죠
00:42:07얘가 너무 잠도 안 자고 공부를 하니까
00:42:10중학교 2학년 때 이후로는
00:42:11공부하라는 말씀을 한 번도 하신 적이 없어요
00:42:13아 그럼 스스로 주변 환경 때문에 영향을 좀 받은 거예요?
00:42:16네 그쵸 그쵸 그때부터
00:42:19Well let's say a couple things you know
00:42:22Here's an image of
00:42:24You know we see this right?
00:42:26Here we see it with our Korean students
00:42:30Many of the Korean students who we encounter at Penn State University
00:42:37They come to the U.S. because they want to escape
00:42:40the high levels of competitiveness here
00:42:43And so they say yeah I just go to the U.S.
00:42:46It's a lot easier
00:42:47And so many say
00:42:48God it's actually really easy to do well in the U.S.
00:42:52compared to in Korea
00:42:54There's that
00:42:57Viral video that we did in my class many years ago
00:43:00of my students
00:43:01When I...
00:43:01Many of you have probably seen it
00:43:03where I compared an American woman and a Korean woman
00:43:06So how about school?
00:43:07How do you do it?
00:43:08Are you smart?
00:43:10I hope so
00:43:11I don't know
00:43:18What's your GPA?
00:43:22I think I'm okay
00:43:23It's over three final
00:43:24What's your GPA?
00:43:27Don't do it
00:43:28Don't do it
00:43:29No go ahead
00:43:31Don't do it
00:43:32Don't do it
00:43:33Don't do it
00:43:34Don't do it
00:43:35Don't do it
00:43:36Korean woman who I met with a couple times here in Korea
00:43:40That had been studying for...
00:43:42Was graduating Penn State in two years
00:43:45And she had two majors
00:43:47A science major and a psychology major
00:43:49Wow
00:43:53And she had a 3.8 GPA
00:43:55Wow
00:43:58She said
00:43:59Oh, I'm not very smart
00:44:05Whereas the American woman had a 3.2 GPA
00:44:08A very relatively low GPA
00:44:10And she said, oh yeah, I'm really smart
00:44:12Korean students tend to be...
00:44:14You know, tend to lead with humility
00:44:16And downplay their success
00:44:18And really just...
00:44:20Quietly succeed
00:44:23In their studies
00:44:25You know, I mentioned the Sky University
00:44:29And I'm thinking about...
00:44:31Everybody talks about the Sky Universities
00:44:33You know
00:44:34For us, it's the equivalent of the Ivy League Universities
00:44:37And Koreans are obsessed with them
00:44:40The top schools
00:44:41And we laugh at that
00:44:44Because most Americans are not obsessed with the Ivy League schools
00:44:48You know, you might not really understand this
00:44:51They don't want to go to the Ivy League
00:44:53They don't want to go to the Ivy League
00:44:54Many of our students
00:44:55Most of our students
00:44:56They come to our university
00:44:58Because we have a really big football program
00:45:01The stadium
00:45:07This is exciting
00:45:09And if you go to one of these games
00:45:13You feel this energy and the passion
00:45:16And you're like
00:45:17I want to go there
00:45:19That's cool
00:45:23But our university
00:45:25It's a very good university in the United States
00:45:28But it is not Ivy League
00:45:30And I would say
00:45:31I don't know what percentage of our students
00:45:34If they had a chance to go to Penn State
00:45:36Or to go to Harvard
00:45:38Or Yale
00:45:39Or Princeton
00:45:40They absolutely would go to Penn State
00:45:43Because they want that other experience
00:45:45And here
00:45:47You know, it's a
00:45:49It's hard
00:45:51You know, it's really difficult
00:45:53For this current generation of young people in Korea
00:45:56It's different
00:45:58You're highly educated
00:45:59You're overly educated
00:46:02You know, 70% of this age group of 25 to 35
00:46:07You have college degrees
00:46:08But you don't
00:46:10If you work hard
00:46:11And you do what you need to do
00:46:13Then we promise success to you
00:46:15But there aren't that many great jobs
00:46:18You all can't have the top jobs
00:46:22What we are experiencing among Korean youth
00:46:24Is this kind of disillusionment
00:46:27And this angst and anxiety
00:46:29That comes from the fact of like
00:46:31They feel like they're not going to be able to go to that next level
00:46:35JOURNAL WORKER
00:46:39JOURNAL WORKER
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00:46:42JOURNAL WORKER
00:46:44JOURNAL WORKER
00:46:45JOURNAL WORKER
00:46:46JOURNAL WORKER
00:46:47JOURNAL WORKER
00:46:47JOURNAL WORKER
00:46:49JOURNAL WORKER
00:46:50요즘 한국에 가장 큰 갈등이 여러 개가 있죠
00:46:54요즘 우리에게 좀 화두가 되는 것은 세대 갈등인 것 같아요
00:46:58세대 갈등
00:46:59그래서 먼저 2030 세대분들의 얘기를 좀 듣고 싶어요.
00:47:06안녕하세요. 저는 36살 직장인인데요.
00:47:09MZ세대라는 단어가 생기고 그리고 제 위 세대의 선임들이 있으면서
00:47:14어떻게 보면 제 위의 선배님들, 50대 분들도 혼자서 책을 보고 밥 먹는 시간을 즐기시는 분들도 있는데
00:47:22이게 표면적으로 드러나지 않다가 이게 드러나고 새로운 단어가 생기면서
00:47:27사회 분위기 자체도 좀 더 세대 갈등을 유발하고 있지 않나 이런 생각을 또 하고 있거든요.
00:47:34맞아. 진짜 궁금하다.
00:47:38혹시 40, 50 세대들이 느끼는 세대 갈등에 대해서 말씀해 주세요.
00:47:43안녕하세요. 저는 42살 김하나라고 하고요.
00:47:47두 명의 10대 자녀를 둔 엄마이자 그리고 와이드를 가르치고 있는 선생님입니다.
00:47:52그런데 요즘 아이들을 보면 자기 주장이 조금 더 강해지기도 하고 고집이 세지기도 하면서
00:48:00또한 한편으로는 좀 참을성이나 힘든 일이 닥쳤을 때 쉽게 포기하는 경향이 있어요.
00:48:07엄마로서 또는 선생님으로서 어디에 포커스를 두고 아이들을 이끌어줘야 할지 조언을 듣고 싶습니다.
00:48:14감사합니다.
00:48:15감사합니다.
00:48:15감사합니다.
00:48:16약간 야...
00:48:17이렇게 해주신 prepared.
00:48:21We have been teaching for 40 years.
00:48:24And it's always true for 40 years that older generations have been telling us negative things about younger generations.
00:48:36And we remain very optimistic about the youth.
00:48:41And we continue to be very optimistic about the youth.
00:48:45An older generation does not have the same experience as the generation behind them and the generation behind them.
00:48:52It's just different.
00:48:53And so there are some things that as we get older, we feel that we know some things because we're older, because we've seen things.
00:49:01And yet there are things that a younger generation experiences that we haven't experienced yet.
00:49:07But we will find young people talking to older people, older people talking to younger people, that just in the process of talking, we wind up saying things that we didn't actually know.
00:49:18This is what begins to open up the space between us, actually starts to close the gap between us.
00:49:26Speak with young people, really with an open mind, not you young people are the problem.
00:49:35Don't start with the problem.
00:49:36And they are talking about issues of fairness.
00:49:40It's like it's not fair.
00:49:42And here in Korea in particular, you know, you've told your young people, if you study hard and you work hard, you're going to get to this next place.
00:49:51And that's not always true.
00:49:53The conde is to sit down with the young people and listen to them and listen to what it is that they're very frustrated about.
00:50:03And when we do that, the young people make a lot of sense.
00:50:07We have the word is called boomer in Korea.
00:50:34I mean, in the United States, we're boomers.
00:50:38My students sometimes...
00:50:39Not really, but we...
00:50:39Well, you are.
00:50:40Yeah.
00:50:42My students sometimes call me a boomer.
00:50:47And I say, you know what?
00:50:49Get your phone out.
00:50:51And I make them get their phone out.
00:50:52And I say, how many apps do you have on your phone?
00:50:55How many apps do you use on your phone?
00:50:57And they list them out.
00:50:59And I say, I can do three times what you can do with your phone.
00:51:02And...
00:51:03That's competition.
00:51:06And I think that's competition, yeah.
00:51:10So look at this photo of us here in front of our house.
00:51:16This was a long time ago.
00:51:18All the many, many years of us with this...
00:51:22Just like with intergenerational conflict, it's conflict.
00:51:26But the only way that we got through it, and that we're able to stand here together, or
00:51:34I should say, we're able to stand...
00:51:36Well, hang on.
00:51:37Let me finish.
00:51:38We're able to stand here together.
00:51:39It's because we listen to one another.
00:51:42I think it's really important to say, when we look at this, and we laugh about all the
00:51:48conflict that's underneath it, it's not easy, but it's also what builds the relationship
00:51:58and makes us come back over and over again, just like coming back here.
00:52:03And talk about with open minds.
00:52:17We find the young people here in Korea today are really smart, very observant, and very thoughtful.
00:52:26And they have a lot to say about the things that they think are good and bad about what's
00:52:34happening in Korea.
00:52:36And it's worth listening.
00:52:39You can't do what needs to happen here in Korea without listening to the young people.
00:52:44Those of you who are young, listen to the old people.
00:52:48Listen, have the conversation, okay?
00:52:56And we come from a multicultural nation, that the United States was built on people
00:53:08coming together from all, so many different areas of the world.
00:53:13And it makes us a very fascinating country.
00:53:16So we have all of these places in the United States with these separate cultural groups.
00:53:21You have your Dominican American area, you have your Puerto Rican American area, you have
00:53:26your Salvadoran, you have your Chinese American, your Korean American, your African, your Ghanaian,
00:53:33your Nigerian American, everything.
00:53:35And this is part of what the United States is, okay?
00:53:38And it works there because we're a nation of immigrants.
00:53:43So Korea, you know, you have low birth rates.
00:53:49People who look like us, people who do not have ancestry in Korea, and you're going to
00:54:03have to make decisions about how you're going to deal with this and what is going to be the
00:54:08response in the nation of Korea.
00:54:11What is Korea going to become when you have all of these other people coming into this country
00:54:18who do not have Korean ancestry?
00:54:21And so we have a couple thoughts about that that we would like to share just to help to spark a
00:54:26conversation about this diversity culture here in Korea.
00:54:31You're at the very beginning stages of this.
00:54:34And if the anticipation, the idea is that more and more people without Korean ancestry are
00:54:41going to come here and what is going to happen to Korea and what is going to happen to Korea?
00:54:50Now, in the United States, the multiculturalism works because we're a big nation.
00:54:57We're a nation of immigrants.
00:54:59We are a nation of people.
00:55:01We, you know, we're also, we're a nation of contradiction.
00:55:07Because we had slavery.
00:55:11We have genocide of indigenous people.
00:55:14And we've been part of a generation that, you know, starting in the 1960s with civil,
00:55:23the uprisings of black Americans and civil rights, like that, we were born into that.
00:55:29And I think one of the key things that the black community has brought to the attention of the United
00:55:35States, and of course the world, is inequality.
00:55:39So we were born into a different America than is, is today, even though always a nation of
00:55:46immigrants and diversity.
00:55:48So yeah, we should, we have all these people, but we don't have this, the sense of oneness.
00:55:53We have a lot of fear of each other.
00:55:57When I was a little one in the hospital, I was in the hospital in a, in a city in the United States,
00:56:03that's a, in Newark, New Jersey, which at the time, Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated.
00:56:12And that was a very fearful time among white people and black people in the United States.
00:56:19Because of the history in the United States that has been led by the black community,
00:56:24the African American community, I would say, in terms of civil rights and then for the black
00:56:30community, and then many other groups following the lead of black Americans, which I think is,
00:56:36is profound.
00:56:37Profound and important.
00:56:38And so just, if you're in different places in the United States, you'll see different Americas,
00:56:45because we have, certain immigrants to the United States have what we call assimilated,
00:56:52right?
00:56:52They've become American, they've lost, meaning they've lost their language,
00:56:56they've lost their traditions, and they've, so they've left those things behind and they've become
00:57:00something else.
00:57:01We have people of Korean ancestry living in the United States who, when you talk to them,
00:57:06they are American.
00:57:08They are as American as Lori and I are in every way.
00:57:12They just look Korean, but they are American.
00:57:16And so, one, are Koreans, are you ready for that?
00:57:21Are you ready to begin to take that step?
00:57:25And so, as we see the failures and the successes in the United States,
00:57:29Korea as a nation is very interesting to us because you're in a place, I mean, Korea has a very deep,
00:57:37rich, complicated history, but it's a new place for Korea and this question of diversity and
00:57:43assimilation.
00:57:43To what degree do we need, do you, do people have to speak Korean if they come here?
00:57:48To what degree do they have to share your values?
00:57:50Because you're at the very beginning stages of this.
00:57:54So, there's a lot of struggle here about what to do and how to move forward.
00:58:00Do you demand assimilation?
00:58:03Do you really want people who look like us to become Korean?
00:58:07And if they do, will you accept them as Korean?
00:58:10We understand nunchi.
00:58:12We adopt Korean customs.
00:58:14You know, at what point will you stop asking people like us who live here if we like kimchi?
00:58:19At what point would you see people like us as actually Koreans?
00:58:23See in the United States.
00:58:25You can go.
00:58:26There's nothing wrong with that.
00:58:28But it works in the United States.
00:58:30But maybe it's going to work very differently here because you are a very small, homogenous country.
00:58:38And I think there's a struggle.
00:58:40And there's a struggle that Korea is going to need to address.
00:58:44If you don't, especially young people, if they don't accept multiculturalism,
00:58:48they're often seen as racist and ethnocentric.
00:58:51And so how difficult that might be for young people.
00:58:55I really, truly, in my heart, hope that the young generation can take the best of Korea
00:59:05that they have inherited and make it into the Korea that they want to see and move the culture
00:59:14to keep it alive, to keep it thriving, and to keep the unique charisma.
00:59:20I think that it's just a really, really valuable way.
00:59:25Maybe the future of Korea and the way to think about these questions of rising levels of immigration,
00:59:33rising levels of people without Korean ancestry is to expect to invite them into being Koreans.
00:59:41And that way, Korean culture remains strong.
00:59:44It remains vibrant.
00:59:45And Korea really remains intact.
00:59:50It's to talk about what keeps bringing us back to Korea.
00:59:54And as we said, this is a really fascinating culture, a fascinating nation.
01:00:00The world's coming.
01:00:05It's coming even more.
01:00:06Yeah.
01:00:07And you know what?
01:00:08It's your own fault.
01:00:10Yeah.
01:00:11And you know, in the end, Korea will just keep going forward.
01:00:15Not because it's easy, but it's almost because it matters, you know, and it matters to you.
01:00:22And it really matters to the world.
01:00:27Because you have a lot to teach, you have a lot to offer.
01:00:30So just keep going.
01:00:31Okay?
01:00:32The world's coming.
01:00:33The world's coming
01:00:52올라타서 남편은 XXX
01:00:54오피스 와이프, 오피스 허즈번드
01:00:56상대방을 태립니다
01:00:58세 번째가 중독입니다
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01:01:06진짜 가만두지 않습니다
01:01:08마지막 네 번째가
01:01:09쌍욕들 많이 하고요
01:01:10장모님같이 말해
01:01:11네가 그러면 그렇지
01:01:12집에서 놀면서 뭐 하냐
01:01:14말을 말자
01:01:16동제를 순간에 날려버린 얘기거든요
01:01:18자기 입에 주먹을 집어넣으셔야 돼요
01:01:20입을 틀어 막아야 돼요
01:01:21우리는 지금 다른 세상을 살고 있습니다
01:01:24이럴 때 밀리고 꿀리고
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