- ontem
O diretor-executivo da ONG UN Watch não acredita que a presidência do Brasil no Conselho de Segurança da ONU possa influenciar a guerra entre Israel e o Hamas e diz que a ligação do Irã para Lula já diz muito: "Não é uma evidência muito positiva para Lula, ter um regime homofóbico, misógino e antissemita querendo que ele se envolva".
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NotíciasTranscrição
00:00Olá, seja muito bem-vindo. Eu sou o Duda Teixeira e esse é mais um Cruzoé Entrevistas.
00:15Hoje temos como convidado o Hílio Neuer. O Hílio, ele é advogado canadense e é o diretor executivo
00:23da ONG UN Watch. Essa ONG fica em Genebra, na Suíça, e o objetivo é estar sempre monitorando
00:32tudo o que acontece dentro da ONU em relação a direitos humanos. Então vamos conversar com o
00:38Hílio, principalmente sobre o que está acontecendo aí no Oriente Médio, em Israel. Eu vou falar com ele
00:44em inglês, vocês seguem a legenda aí embaixo. Hi Hílio, good afternoon, you are in Geneva, right?
00:53Right now I'm visiting Jerusalem, actually. Ah, good, so in Israel. So, Hílio, I've prepared
01:01some questions for you, and on Monday we had a message from the United Nations Relief and Works
01:11Agency for Palestine Refugees, which is known as UNRAA in English. They've published a message
01:21on social media saying Hamas stole fuel and medical supplies meant for refugees. Should we trust this
01:31message? I think we can trust this message. You know, in law, if someone makes an admission that is
01:41contrary to their interests, that has a particular weight. So, in this case, well, I would say two
01:47things. Number one, it's very rare, it's almost never happens, that UNRAA reports a crime committed
01:53by Hamas. Now, we know why that is, because two years ago, for example, when there was a war, a battle
02:00between Hamas and Israel, the head of UNRAA in Gaza, a German citizen by the name of Matthias Schmel,
02:09he was interviewed by an international TV network, and he was asked about Israel's strikes on Gaza,
02:15and he said, quote, they are very precise, by which he meant they were targeting Hamas, and they were not
02:21targeting civilians or humanitarian spaces or schools. He said they were very precise, and he got
02:29in a lot of trouble with Hamas. They declared him persona non grata in Gaza, and very quickly he was
02:38actually removed from his position. So, Hamas was able to kick this guy out of his job and out of Gaza.
02:44And therefore, the people who work for UNRAA, if they're not already very anti-Israel and sympathetic
02:51with the goals of Hamas, they would be afraid. And that's why, again, about this tweet, UNRAA did a
02:57detailed tweet. It was three parts, and they said that Hamas stole, using its, quote-unquote,
03:04Ministry of Health, which is run by Hamas, that they came with trucks, and they stole fuel and medical
03:10equipment, and they gave a lot of details. And then, about two hours later, or maybe less, they deleted
03:15the tweet and sort of pretended it never happened. So, multiple sources have confirmed that the theft
03:22did happen.
03:24Hello, but usually, how are the relations between the UNRAA and Hamas?
03:30Well, they seem to get along very well. They have a modus vivendi. Nothing can happen in Gaza without
03:38the approval of Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization. They have totalitarian, oppressive
03:43rule over all of Gaza. If you say something, do something that is contrary to Hamas, you get
03:49arrested and tortured. So, Hamas is very happy for UNRAA to worry about feeding Palestinians, putting the
03:57kids in school, taking out the garbage. And Hamas is worried about building terror tunnels and planning
04:02to massacre Israeli civilians, as they did on October 7th. So, they seem to get along just fine.
04:09Okay. Hileo, is the UNRAA to blame for the endless tensions between Israel and the Palestinians
04:16in the West Bank and in the Gaza Strip?
04:20Well, I don't know if we can blame one agency. I think we can blame the commitment that Palestinians
04:29still have to eliminating any Jewish state whatsoever in this area. They're not willing
04:35to compromise. Their vision is not to have a Palestinian state living side by side with Israel,
04:41Israel, but is to eliminate the Jewish state. That has always been the declared goal, not only of
04:46Hamas, but also if you really speak to Fatah and the Palestinian Authority, and you see what they
04:52write in their internal communications and their publications and their messages to their people,
04:59they are also committed to destroying Israel. I would say that is the cause. But UNRAA is an instrument
05:06that promotes that cause. UNRAA is different than any other refugee agency. You know, in Geneva,
05:12our offices are next to the UN refugee agency that's called the UNHCR. And that agency is supposed
05:19to deal with millions of refugees around the world. And their goal is to take people who are refugees,
05:24if they're from Syria or Afghanistan or Ukraine, and make them not refugees to settle them in some
05:32third country. UNRAA does not have that goal. They're not trying to resettle Palestinians in Brazil and Canada
05:39or in Europe or anywhere else. Their goal is actually, they teach Palestinians, that their home is not
05:45in Gaza or in the West Bank. Their home is within Israel proper, in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and in Haifa.
05:54So UNRAA for generations has been maintaining, cultivating a culture of grievance, not allowing
06:02the Palestinians to move on. There was a war in 1947 and 48. It was the Palestinians and the Arab states
06:08that launched the war. They lost and they need to move on. They've been given autonomy in Gaza and large
06:15parts of the West Bank. And they were accepted in neighboring Arab Muslim countries like Lebanon
06:23and Syria and Jordan. They can move on and create a new life. But UNRAA is designed to sustain the
06:29grievance over the 1948 war and effectively to promote a narrative that their home is within Israel proper
06:37and to undo Israel. That's what UNRAA promotes. Okay. Hylio, what did you find analyzing social media posts of
06:48UNRAA teachers? Can you give us some examples? Yes, look, we for the past several years have been examining
06:59the teachers that UNRAA hires. And I think, you know, if you look at who the teacher is in the classroom,
07:05you can understand what kind of education the kids will be getting. And we found in the past over 133
07:11documented examples of UNRAA teachers and other staff who promote glorification of terrorism,
07:19who cheer whenever there's a Hamas terrorist attack, who praise Adolf Hitler, who say Adolf Hitler
07:24did a great job. He should have finished. They call for killing Jews. They promote anti-Semitic
07:30conspiracies. And on our website, unwatch.org, last week, we released images, screenshots and links
07:39of UNRAA staff who cheered the massacre that took place on October 7th when Hamas murdered 1400 Israelis,
07:49slaughtering families, raping, torturing, taking hostages, about 200 hostages.
07:55And these UNRAA teachers were praising these massacres. And they're going before a classroom,
08:02and we're paying for it. Taxpayers around the world are paying for it. If people want to see the examples,
08:07they can go to unwatch.org and they can see our blog post about this. It shows pictures of UNRAA teachers,
08:15principals and other staff. It's quite horrible. Okay. Hello. So we are recording this interview
08:24on Wednesday. And yesterday, on Tuesday, a rocket from the Islamic Jihad, which is another terrorist
08:32group, reached a parking lot close to a hospital in the Gaza Strip. And most media outlets published
08:42pieces saying Israel bombarded a hospital killing hundreds. So I asked you, how do you analyze
08:51the media coverage about this war? Well, this example is a shocking, extreme example of a phenomenon
09:02that's been going on for many, many years. The media, the mainstream media in general, not everyone,
09:08but in general, covering the conflict between Israel and the Arab states, the Palestinians have a very
09:14defined narrative. The narrative isn't about Israel in the Arab world or Israel in Iran. They focus,
09:19they take a vast region that goes from Morocco in the west to, let's say, Iran in the east, the Islamic
09:27world, Middle East, if you want to include Pakistan, but let's say the Arab world and Iran. And they shrink
09:32it to a tiny area of just their focus is just on Israel and the Palestinians to make Israel look like
09:37the larger party when Israel is actually surrounded in a sea of tens of millions of square kilometers
09:43of Arab land and outnumbered by hundreds of millions. They focus on a narrow area, which is
09:49just Israel and the Palestinians to make Israel look larger and to make Israel as the aggressor. And
09:53the story, the narrative that is already there, and they're just waiting for the facts to fill it
09:59in. They have the narrative is Israel kills innocent Palestinians. That's the narrative that the major
10:05media, media worldwide tend to be looking for. And we saw it yesterday. Hamas told a story, which was
10:11a lie. And the New York Times, the world's leading newspaper, the world's leading newspaper, we rely
10:17on the New York Times to do independent verification to get the facts, ran with the headline, Israeli strike
10:24on Gaza hospital kills hundreds, Palestinian officials say. So it's not even Hamas says,
10:31but Palestinian officials, which sounds more credible. And they put it as a headline story.
10:36It turns out it's false. As you said, the rocket was from the Islamic Jihad. They were firing it on
10:40Israel. It fell short and it landed within Gaza, which happens many times. And the story was covered
10:45around the world. AP, Reuters, world leaders, condemned Israel and said, we need accountability.
10:51And it was all a lie from Hamas. So it gives us an indication that the war that has begun
10:58and where Israel will likely be entering the Gaza Strip, we can expect to see this every day,
11:03where facts won't necessarily be checked. And you're just going to get headlines. And the headline,
11:08clearly that they're looking for, and we saw it today, is Israel kills innocent Palestinians.
11:13That's the story we're looking for. And we're not going to get nuance of whether terrorists were
11:17firing from that area. You're going to get the story that Israel deliberately targets civilians,
11:22which is a big lie. Israel is trying to target the terrorists and is doing its best to avoid
11:28targeting civilians. Of course, because Hamas hides in their homes, hospitals, and schools,
11:33inevitably civilians, because of Hamas's actions, will get injured. And that is tragic.
11:39Hileo, why is it so difficult to change this narrative on the mainstream media?
11:47Well, that's a very good question. And, you know, some would look at narratives that have
11:51memes that have been cultivated over hundreds of years. In the past millennia, there was a constant
12:01meme in Western society that the Jews killed Christ, that the Jews killed an innocent
12:08baby. In Europe, you would have the blood libel repeatedly. It was a story that just kept popping up
12:13every, you know, century. It would be a dead child, and they'd say the Jews killed him to have their blood.
12:18And so I think in Christian society, also in Islamic society, because of their religions which come from
12:27Judaism and some of the anti-Semitism that is rooted in there, it's something that's rooted in
12:35in attitudes for hundreds of years. And I'd say it's even unconscious.
12:40Many people are not even aware of it. And even though society today is largely secular,
12:45the idea of Jews killing an innocent person and there's blood and that passion that comes with it
12:51seems to be an ever-present need that our societies still have to go for this scapegoating and to
12:59get this rage because there's blood. That's something that we see very starkly today. And
13:05I think it echoes from things that we've had in the past in our culture.
13:11Okay. Hello. This week, the Workers' Party, which is the party of Lula, they've published a statement
13:20saying that Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza. Is there evidence of it?
13:27No, no evidence has been put forward on the contrary. Israel was attacked on October 7th.
13:33Israelis were sleeping, Palestinians were sleeping, and Hamas sent in 6,000 terrorists. We don't know
13:38the exact numbers, but they broke through into Israel. They invaded. They went into communities,
13:43to homes. They killed the whole families. They raped women. They killed people at a music festival.
13:49This was the war crime. Israel has begun to respond to try to hit back at the terrorists so that they
13:55won't do it again. So what the Workers' Party in Brazil has said is a complete distortion. Israel is a
14:01democracy trying to defend itself from atrocities, Nazi-like atrocities from the terrorist group Hamas.
14:09And it has every right to defend itself. You know, when there was ISIS, the Islamic State,
14:14in Western countries in 2014, America launched bombings against ISIS. This was the United States,
14:20Australia, Belgium, Denmark, Canada, the Netherlands, France, Britain, and the whole world supported it.
14:27And the whole world should support Israel in its fight against terrorists. That is its moral duty
14:33to defend its citizens. And it is the opposite of a war crime. So it's a shame on the Workers' Party
14:39for supporting the narrative of Hamas terrorists.
14:43Okay. Helio, but it's happening in many other countries where we have leftist parties
14:52blaming Israel for the war and for the atrocities, right? Why are there so many leftist parties
15:02anti-Israel in the world?
15:06Well, look, you know, anti-Semitism exists on the right and it exists on the left. And left-wing
15:11anti-Semitism has been there for, you know, centuries. In Karl Marx, there's terrible anti-Semitism. He
15:18equates Judaism with, you know, exploitation. And over the years, we've had many left-wing
15:27ideologues who were anti-Semitic. You know, the Stalinist Soviet Union, which was the largest
15:33left-wing power of the 20th century, was horribly anti-Semitic and promoted the modern form of anti-Semitism,
15:42which is that Zionism is racism, that Israel is some kind of a Nazi-like state. This was promoted by
15:47the communist regime in the Soviet Union. And it, you know, filtered in to radical left and sometimes
15:55even more mainstream left-wing organizations, publications, and attitudes in the West. So there
16:05is a long history to this demonization of Israel, which I believe is the contemporary manifestation
16:12of anti-Semitism. If the country you're singling out and demonizing continuously is the Jewish state,
16:19in a treatment that you apply to no other country in the world, that's called discrimination. And it's
16:24called anti-Semitism. Okay. Hello. These days, the Brazilian President Lula posts a message saying that
16:34Brazil, in the provisional presidency of the UN Security Council, will join the efforts to bring
16:42the conflict to an immediate and definitive end. How do you see the role of the UN Security Council
16:51in this crisis? And how do you see the Brazilian presidency there?
16:58Well, the UN Security Council is going to be deadlocked on this issue. The United States is
17:04supporting Israel. That is correct. Russia and China basically support Hamas in one form or other.
17:12So you're not going to get, and because they have the veto power, you're never going to get a resolution
17:17that will decide anything in this conflict. You will get meetings. You may, on some rare occasions,
17:22get a joint statement of criticism of one of the other parties. But you're not going to get consensus.
17:28We saw it even after Israel was attacked. They couldn't reach a consensus press release, even after
17:32Israelis, men, women, and children were slaughtered. So I don't think the Security Council will do more
17:39than hold meetings, which are important. It's a way of spotlighting a situation. Brazil will have presidency
17:47for a month. I don't think they will have a significant influence on the process. And I don't
17:53think people respect Lula. I think people know that he's a left-wing ideologue. He was a comrade of Fidel
18:00Castro. And I think serious people do not take him seriously. Okay. Hello. Yesterday on Tuesday,
18:09the Iranian president, Ibrahim Raisi, called Lula by phone and offered some help for Brazil to role,
18:19to play a role in the international scene, right? What can we expect from it? Well, I think it says a lot
18:28that the head of a terrorist, fascist, misogynistic regime like the Islamic Republic of Iran is calling
18:36Lula and asking him to intervene. That really says it all. And it's not a very positive testimony for
18:43Lula if you have a homophobic, misogynistic, anti-Semitic regime that wants you to get involved.
18:50I'm concerned that Lula might, in his own way, give support to the Iranian regime. That would be
18:59terrible. It would be against the interests of the people of Brazil who deserve a safe and peaceful
19:05world and will not be aided by a world that has a stronger terrorist regime like Iran or Hamas or
19:12Hezbollah. That will not serve the Brazilian people or the people around the world.
19:18Hello. Who is not taking Lula seriously? Are you talking about...
19:27Go ahead. And are you talking about Western presidents?
19:34Yes, largely. I'd say obviously Brazil is an important country and Brazil has certain power and
19:39has influence in Latin America. So I don't mean to diminish the power and influence of Brazil,
19:45but I don't think that, you know, if Western leaders are gathering to discuss an issue with
19:52its President Biden and Macron and Prime Minister Sunak from the UK and German Chancellor having a
19:58conversation and while Lula is trying something, I don't think anyone's going to, of those who count in
20:05the United States and the EU in terms of major powers that count on these issues, I don't think that
20:10they're going to be interested very much in what he's doing, although he clearly has some power and
20:16influence and could cause damage. I don't dismiss that possibility. Okay. Hello. Brazil uses a list of
20:25terrorist entities done by the United Nations Security Council, but Hamas is not there. Why?
20:32Well, you know, as I indicated before, Russia and China have the veto and so that means that
20:40the Security Council is always getting filtered through some of those dictatorships and in part
20:46because of their influence and other countries that are on the Security Council, Hamas has not been
20:52listed. So I think anyone who wants to do a real terrorist list should do their own, like the United
20:58States, like the European Union, like Canada, and not rely on a UN which needs the approval of Beijing
21:05and Moscow, Putin and President Xi in order to put someone on a list. I think any self-respecting
21:10democracy ought to have their own list. So Brazil now should start its own list of terrorist entities,
21:18right? Absolutely. Okay. And hello. The Brazilian government under Lula is supporting a reform of the United
21:27United Nations Security Council. Can a reform of the kind that Brazil is asking for change something
21:36at the UN for good? I don't think it's very likely. I don't think you're going to get agreement if,
21:43you know, in each region, if you say, you know, give one country, an additional country, the veto power,
21:52you know, if you say, all right, well, let's give South Africa the veto power in Africa. Well, Nigeria
21:55will say, what about us? And if you say Brazil, we're going to give it, Argentina can say, what about
22:00us and Mexico? So I think it'll be very complicated to get any reform. Reform is always talked about,
22:06but I don't think it's very likely. I don't think the chances are good for any reform.
22:11Okay. Helio, you are a strong critic of most of the dictatorships around the world.
22:20Can I consider you as the most hated man at the UN in Geneva?
22:26Sadly, that's been proven true time and again. When I walk into the UN, I receive enormous
22:36attitudes of hatred. And as we know, I've been targeted by the top UN Human Rights Council official,
22:42Eric Tistounet, who has prevented me from speaking in last June in 36 occasions when we registered to
22:49speak, we were denied. So we know that he hates us. His employee testified how he targets us. We have
22:56emails from Eric Tistounet, how he plots ways to have UN security block me from entering the UN and how
23:02he told his staff to upload false information about me to try to smear me on the internet. So there's no
23:09question. Sadly, I say, because it's not fun that I am the most hated man at the United Nations.
23:14Okay. So I suppose they are not inviting you for parties or lunch or dinners in Geneva,
23:22but if you come to Brazil, please tell me. I will invite you for a party or something here. Okay?
23:28Oh, obrigado. Thank you.
23:30Hileo, very thank you for your time. I love your explanations.
23:36Bom, eu acabei de conversar aqui com o Hileo Neuer, diretor executivo da ONG UN Watch. Eu recomendo
23:44muito que vocês sigam também as contas da UN Watch e do próprio Hileo nas redes sociais. Hileo,
23:51muito obrigado. Tchau, tchau. Tchau, tchau. Tchau, tchau, tchau.