Skip to playerSkip to main contentSkip to footer
  • 6/19/2025
The U.S. is one of the very few countries in the world that allows children under 18 to be prosecuted as adults and sentenced to life without parole. Producer Ofra Bikel visits five young men in Colorado sentenced to life without parole to examine their crimes and punishment, the laws that sanctioned their convictions, and the prospect of never being free again.

Category

📺
TV
Transcript
00:00:00Tonight's program contains graphic imagery
00:00:05and descriptions of violence and sexual abuse.
00:00:08Viewer discretion is advised.
00:00:30Nate and I were kids.
00:00:36We became men in the joint.
00:00:38But we never got to graduate high school or go to college
00:00:42or really do anything that a normal adult does.
00:00:45Our whole adult life has been here where nothing's normal.
00:00:51In the United States, there are more than 2,200 young offenders
00:00:55who have been sentenced to life without parole
00:00:58for having committed murder in their teens.
00:01:01They took lives.
00:01:03They took sons.
00:01:04They took mothers.
00:01:05They took fathers.
00:01:07They took aunts.
00:01:08They took uncles.
00:01:09They took so much away from people,
00:01:11and we can never get it back.
00:01:13These are the worst of the worst.
00:01:15There's no question about that.
00:01:24We knew Trevor was going to do some time in prison.
00:01:28Nobody ever said he was innocent.
00:01:31And 12 or 15 years seems much more appropriate
00:01:36than automatic life without parole.
00:01:40They're going to put me in this warehouse until I die.
00:01:43It's about really what they want.
00:01:44So, sometimes there's real despair and hopelessness.
00:01:51Okay, there's a whole lot of life out there,
00:01:53and you're no part of it.
00:01:55You know, I don't care if he finds a cure for cancer in there.
00:01:59He should never get out of prison.
00:02:02Vengeance is not justice.
00:02:04Vengeance is vengeance.
00:02:07Life without parole sends the message,
00:02:09you are not worthy of rehabilitation.
00:02:12You're worthless.
00:02:13You're a monster.
00:02:15You're not fit for society.
00:02:17And you're a dangerous, rabid animal
00:02:19that needs to be kept away.
00:02:23Tonight on Frontline,
00:02:24a story set in one state, Colorado,
00:02:27where 45 young offenders have been sent to prison
00:02:31for the rest of their natural lives.
00:02:33Teller County Sheriff,
00:03:03calls the scene gruesome.
00:03:06It was one of the most heinous crimes
00:03:08in Colorado in 1992.
00:03:11I've seen a double homicide.
00:03:14We'll be entering the house right now.
00:03:17Looks like a scuffle may have taken place in here.
00:03:22Quite a bit of blood lost.
00:03:26Okay, coming around the bedroom.
00:03:3115-year-old Jacob Eind,
00:03:32and a classmate brutally killed his mother and stepfather.
00:03:45Jacob is now 29 years old.
00:03:48In another year, I would have had just as much time in prison
00:03:52as out of prison.
00:03:54All my conscious life,
00:03:56I've been more in prison than out.
00:03:58I mean, my mind's a mess when it comes to my past,
00:04:02trying to sort everything out.
00:04:04I mean, it's...
00:04:04There's so many paradoxes in there.
00:04:07It's just hard to wrap my brain around.
00:04:10I could not forget about Jacob.
00:04:15For some reason, he haunted me.
00:04:18Mary Ellen Johnson, who would eventually write a book about the case,
00:04:23first heard about it from her daughter,
00:04:25who was Jacob's classmate.
00:04:26Everybody was talking about it.
00:04:29This was a very unusual happening in a small town,
00:04:32a small mountain town,
00:04:33and nobody could remember a murder happening there.
00:04:38They lived in a very lovely home.
00:04:40They had a big motor home parked outside of their house.
00:04:46The house sat up on a hill with a fabulous view.
00:04:50I used to drive by it and think,
00:04:53I wonder who lives in that kind of a house.
00:04:56They were a very handsome couple.
00:04:58They were like the perfect parents.
00:05:01The boys were very well behaved.
00:05:04Yes, ma'am.
00:05:05No, sir.
00:05:07They were the perfect family.
00:05:10But the family was not as perfect as it seemed.
00:05:17The home was filled with fear and anxiety.
00:05:25Every morning was an assessment on what's going to happen that day.
00:05:30What kind of mood are they going to be in?
00:05:32Is it going to be a halfway decent day?
00:05:35Charles, four years older than Jacob, is now a therapist.
00:05:44I always remember coming back from school
00:05:47and being able to relax
00:05:50until we heard the garage door opened.
00:05:54And just the overwhelming feeling of panic.
00:06:01Because then again, we had to reassess on what's going to happen that night.
00:06:06What often happened was abuse, emotional and physical,
00:06:12and one they never talked about, even to each other, sexual.
00:06:17Sexual abuse inflicted by their stepfather, Kermit Jordan,
00:06:21who married their mother when the boys were four and eight.
00:06:24In August 1992, when he was 18 years old, Charles moved out of the house.
00:06:34For the first time, I said,
00:06:38no, I won't be around this man any longer.
00:06:44I'm not going to take it, I don't deserve it, and I'm leaving.
00:06:51But before he left, he says, he went to social services
00:06:55to ask them to keep an eye on his brother.
00:06:59This was part of my plan.
00:07:01I went to ask if he could help my brother.
00:07:05And he said, I have my notes,
00:07:08and I'll, um, and we'll start an investigation.
00:07:12Did they?
00:07:14No.
00:07:17The social worker would claim
00:07:19that he didn't remember this part of the conversation,
00:07:22when a few months later,
00:07:24Jacob shot his mother and stepfather to death.
00:07:31The 16-year-old is charged with first-degree murder
00:07:33for killing his mother and stepfather.
00:07:36Pam and Kermit Jordan in their Woodland Park home...
00:07:38When these homicides happen,
00:07:39they tend to be some of the worst crime scenes you'll ever see.
00:07:43Now, the term heinous may go to what they're talking about,
00:07:46the nature of the kid, that the kid is a heinous person.
00:07:50I don't agree with that.
00:07:52These kids, by and large,
00:07:53are responding to typically horrific situations at home.
00:07:57They see no way out,
00:07:59and when they kill,
00:08:01through a confluence of circumstances,
00:08:03that's supposed to be unexpected,
00:08:05but if you look at their lives,
00:08:07it unfortunately follows a tragedy
00:08:09that it was waiting to happen.
00:08:12The 16-year-old boy spent the day stoically watching
00:08:15a parade of witnesses,
00:08:16but occasionally...
00:08:17Jacob's trial took place two years later in 1994.
00:08:21To evaluate the 16-year-old
00:08:22after he shot and killed his mother and stepfather.
00:08:25It was in the news every day.
00:08:27Twitching a pen was in from the beginning
00:08:29on the killing of his own parents.
00:08:31The one witness who could shed light on Jacob's life at home
00:08:34was his older brother, Charles.
00:08:36There were many secrets in the house
00:08:38that we didn't tell people.
00:08:43I did my best as far as explaining to the court
00:08:48the type of environment that we were in,
00:08:53the pain that we were experiencing
00:08:58and being inflicted upon.
00:09:03Even the sexual abuse.
00:09:07I broke my code of silence.
00:09:12And in front of the whole world to see,
00:09:15with the cameras rolling and everything,
00:09:19he would basically rape us.
00:09:21He would wait until we got home,
00:09:25oftentimes sneaking up behind me,
00:09:28or Jacob,
00:09:30and throwing us into the bathroom,
00:09:35literally taking us by the shoulders
00:09:36and tossing us into the bathroom.
00:09:40And there he would hit us across the face
00:09:44and body and say,
00:09:48get on the toilet.
00:09:50And he would pull the ropes out
00:09:53from underneath the credenza.
00:09:56Have us get undressed.
00:10:00Then tell us,
00:10:03he would start,
00:10:07start to masturbate.
00:10:09And after he was done,
00:10:14he would get dressed.
00:10:20And say,
00:10:21you're so dirty.
00:10:23don't take a show.
00:10:29Always laughing.
00:10:32It was always,
00:10:34I mean,
00:10:35to say it was maniacal
00:10:36would be an understatement.
00:10:38Just laughing,
00:10:39chuckling,
00:10:41pleased with himself.
00:10:42Fine has never said,
00:10:44at least on record,
00:10:46that he was molested.
00:10:47But his brother testified
00:10:48that it happened to both boys.
00:10:50Problem is,
00:10:51is child abuse is the perfect crime.
00:10:53It's a perfect crime
00:10:55because parents who do it
00:10:57seal their own protection
00:10:59because they know the kids
00:11:00are typically,
00:11:01A,
00:11:01not going to fight back,
00:11:02and B,
00:11:03typically not report.
00:11:05Because as bad as children
00:11:06get treated
00:11:06by their parents,
00:11:09that parent is still
00:11:10the caregiver.
00:11:11That parent still
00:11:12is the nourisher.
00:11:13And it's very difficult
00:11:15for the average human being
00:11:17to fight against that person,
00:11:20to rebel against that person.
00:11:21That's why
00:11:22parasite is such a unique offense.
00:11:23Did your mother know?
00:11:27I think she did know
00:11:28in the back of her mind.
00:11:32I think she was very much
00:11:33in denial
00:11:34about the true nature
00:11:38of Kermit.
00:11:41In a lot of cases
00:11:42of parasite,
00:11:43they'll be just as angry
00:11:45at the person
00:11:46who throws them
00:11:47to the wolves,
00:11:48so to speak.
00:11:49Even if the mother
00:11:50weren't doing anything,
00:11:51the kids will say,
00:11:52why didn't you protect us?
00:11:54In Jacob's case,
00:11:56not only didn't she protect him,
00:11:58she was doing
00:11:59the same things to him.
00:12:00And it wasn't just sexual abuse.
00:12:02I mean, she treated him
00:12:03horrendously.
00:12:08Well, not only was she
00:12:09unhappy with her marriage,
00:12:11she was also unhappy
00:12:12with being pregnant
00:12:13with her second child.
00:12:15He was about
00:12:16eight, nine months old,
00:12:18and we went in.
00:12:19She did not know
00:12:19I had followed her in there.
00:12:21And she just kind of
00:12:22grabbed Chico,
00:12:23and she goes,
00:12:24I just hate you.
00:12:25I just,
00:12:26she goes,
00:12:27I wish you had never
00:12:28been born, you know.
00:12:29I just felt...
00:12:30Jacob was conceived
00:12:32to save the marriage,
00:12:36to repair it.
00:12:38And he became
00:12:40the representation
00:12:41of her broken dreams.
00:12:45And I think
00:12:47in many, many respects,
00:12:48she resented
00:12:50Jacob's entire existence.
00:12:56Growing up,
00:12:58Jacob began to cut himself.
00:13:00All my life,
00:13:01I've been a cutter.
00:13:03When things get hard,
00:13:05I cut on myself,
00:13:07and it makes me feel better.
00:13:09I get this huge ball of...
00:13:10I couldn't even name
00:13:13the emotion.
00:13:14I mean,
00:13:14it was just chaos inside.
00:13:16And cutting would be
00:13:18the only way
00:13:19to release it.
00:13:21No one paid attention.
00:13:23When your cries for help
00:13:26go unheard,
00:13:27there are no options.
00:13:33At that point,
00:13:35and I understand,
00:13:37this is where Jacob
00:13:38was coming from.
00:13:40This was pure survival.
00:13:43Some of the evidence
00:13:44prosecutors brought out today
00:13:45included a baseboard,
00:13:47a door,
00:13:47and part of a wall.
00:13:48All are splattered with blood.
00:13:50It has to be
00:13:51some type of force
00:13:52impacting the blood,
00:13:54causing the blood.
00:13:55The extreme damage
00:13:56done to the child
00:13:57is reflected in the rage
00:13:58of the homicide.
00:14:00They have to use
00:14:01the baseball bat
00:14:01numerous times.
00:14:02They have to stab
00:14:03numerous times.
00:14:05They never fire
00:14:05one bullet from a gun.
00:14:06They fire the whole barrel.
00:14:08It's not just bang,
00:14:09and you're dead.
00:14:10It never happens like that.
00:14:11Never, never, never.
00:14:12But is abuse
00:14:13a reason to commit murder?
00:14:15A question the jury
00:14:16must eventually answer.
00:14:19For years,
00:14:21I mean,
00:14:21when things get real bad,
00:14:23I'd be able to tell myself,
00:14:24okay,
00:14:24but they'll be gone soon.
00:14:27I'd say,
00:14:27I don't have to put up
00:14:29with it much longer.
00:14:31I took sanctuary
00:14:32within that fantasy
00:14:34of it being over.
00:14:37And it's still
00:14:37almost half fantasy for me,
00:14:39all the way up
00:14:40to the point of the murders.
00:14:41I mean,
00:14:42even when,
00:14:44up until the first trigger
00:14:46was actually pulled,
00:14:46it was still,
00:14:47to me,
00:14:47half fantasy.
00:14:49All I wanted
00:14:50was something to end.
00:14:53I didn't really grasp
00:14:55the permanency
00:14:56of their deaths.
00:14:58Definitely didn't understand
00:14:59the gravity
00:15:00of what it means
00:15:01to kill somebody.
00:15:03I mean,
00:15:03I didn't think
00:15:04that they would feel pain.
00:15:06I didn't think
00:15:06that anybody else
00:15:08would be affected.
00:15:09And now,
00:15:10when I think back
00:15:11and I realize
00:15:12the amount of pain,
00:15:13it's like,
00:15:14oh, my God.
00:15:15I remember I was sitting
00:15:16in a police station.
00:15:18I mean,
00:15:18this is how out of touch
00:15:19of reality I was.
00:15:21I had a small amount
00:15:22of marijuana,
00:15:22like an eighth of an ounce
00:15:23in my bedroom.
00:15:25I'm telling my brother,
00:15:26you got to get the marijuana
00:15:27or else I'm in trouble.
00:15:28I'm arrested
00:15:29for first-degree murder
00:15:30and I don't think
00:15:32I'm in trouble.
00:15:32I'm telling my brother
00:15:33to get my homework
00:15:34from school
00:15:35and get my absence excused.
00:15:38I didn't know
00:15:39what they were going
00:15:39to do with me,
00:15:40but I sure didn't think
00:15:41I was in trouble.
00:15:42I had no concept
00:15:44at all
00:15:45of what was going on.
00:15:47Whatever happened
00:15:48in that house
00:15:49has been exaggerated.
00:15:51It has been exaggerated
00:15:52for one purpose,
00:15:53to get this defendant off
00:15:58as an excuse to kill.
00:16:01And there should be
00:16:01no excuse for killing.
00:16:03So the trial was agonizing
00:16:06and it was painful.
00:16:08And I certainly didn't feel
00:16:10as though human dignity
00:16:12was ever served
00:16:13or let alone justice.
00:16:16As account number one,
00:16:17we the jury find the defendant,
00:16:19Jacob Ein,
00:16:20guilty of first-degree murder
00:16:21of commode.
00:16:22They came down
00:16:22with a first-degree murder sentence.
00:16:25They said,
00:16:27according to the letter
00:16:29of the law,
00:16:31first-degree murder
00:16:32is what he did.
00:16:34This is account number two.
00:16:36If you look at around
00:16:37the country,
00:16:38the way people are treated
00:16:39who commit homicide,
00:16:41we treat most leniently
00:16:42those parents
00:16:43who kill their children
00:16:45and we treat most harshly
00:16:47the teenagers
00:16:47who kill their parents.
00:16:52even the judge
00:16:55that sentencing said,
00:16:57my hands are tied,
00:16:58I have no choice.
00:17:01And she handed him
00:17:03his life sentence.
00:17:05Colorado,
00:17:06where Jacob will be incarcerated
00:17:24for the rest of his life,
00:17:26was once one of the most
00:17:27progressive states
00:17:28in the country.
00:17:31Colorado was always
00:17:32considered advanced
00:17:34in terms of its
00:17:35juvenile justice system.
00:17:38And the city and county
00:17:39of Denver
00:17:39had one of the few
00:17:41juvenile courts,
00:17:43a court that was designated
00:17:44that it only involved
00:17:46juvenile justice.
00:17:49And we developed
00:17:51a youth correctional system
00:17:53that was known nationally,
00:17:56if not internationally,
00:17:57for its treatment
00:17:59of youth offenders,
00:18:02particularly violent
00:18:04youth offenders.
00:18:05These courts were founded
00:18:06on the principle
00:18:07that we don't really care
00:18:08what the child did,
00:18:10we care why he got to court.
00:18:12We wanted to know
00:18:13the background of his life,
00:18:15his social circumstances,
00:18:16in some occasions
00:18:17his psychological circumstances.
00:18:19And the court sought
00:18:21to bring to bear
00:18:21on this child's life
00:18:23and his family's life
00:18:24whatever resources
00:18:25they had available
00:18:26to correct this
00:18:27developmental deviation.
00:18:31There were formal,
00:18:32well-defined procedures
00:18:33to follow when children
00:18:35were transferred
00:18:36from juvenile to adult court.
00:18:39If a district attorney
00:18:40believed that a child's case
00:18:42should be held
00:18:43in adult court,
00:18:44they would make
00:18:45a request of the court,
00:18:46there would be
00:18:47a comprehensive hearing,
00:18:48the juvenile would be
00:18:49represented by an attorney,
00:18:51the prosecutor would be
00:18:52present at the hearing,
00:18:53and the court would receive
00:18:55a wide array of information
00:18:57about why the child
00:18:59should be transferred
00:18:59to criminal court
00:19:00or why a child should remain
00:19:02in juvenile court.
00:19:05When we were growing up,
00:19:07there was an expectation
00:19:08that children had
00:19:09the right to fail.
00:19:11They had the right
00:19:12to make mistakes.
00:19:14In some cases,
00:19:15we made very significant mistakes,
00:19:17but people didn't throw
00:19:19in the towel for us.
00:19:21They were willing
00:19:22to allow us to learn
00:19:23from those mistakes,
00:19:24to move forward
00:19:25and become productive citizens.
00:19:29I think society now
00:19:31is very unforgiving.
00:19:33Society is very intolerant
00:19:35and has no patience
00:19:37for even children.
00:19:41The change in attitude
00:19:43and policy was triggered
00:19:44by a sharp, highly publicized
00:19:46increase in violent crimes
00:19:48committed by young offenders
00:19:50during the late 1980s and 90s.
00:19:53Every 92 minutes,
00:19:54an American child dies
00:19:56as a result of gunfire.
00:19:58Nationwide,
00:19:59younger and younger teens
00:20:00are committing more
00:20:01and more heinous crimes.
00:20:03The FBI says
00:20:04every American
00:20:04now has a realistic chance
00:20:06of being a murder victim.
00:20:08There is no avoiding
00:20:09driving through, quote,
00:20:10bad neighborhoods, unquote,
00:20:12because the bad neighborhoods
00:20:13are coming to a place near you.
00:20:15In Colorado,
00:20:16the events of 1993
00:20:18were labeled by the press
00:20:19as the summer of violence.
00:20:22There has been an epidemic
00:20:23of kids using guns
00:20:24in the Denver metropolitan area.
00:20:26In Denver,
00:20:27another young shooting victim
00:20:28is clinging to life,
00:20:29while some grown-ups now
00:20:30are saying,
00:20:31enough.
00:20:32The killing has continued
00:20:33and summer is only half over.
00:20:36So there was a lot
00:20:37of publicity about it.
00:20:39Many of the crimes
00:20:40still were never solved,
00:20:41but the community
00:20:43had great fear.
00:20:46We have a bunch
00:20:46of wild animals
00:20:47running out there.
00:20:47We have to get them
00:20:48off the street
00:20:48and quit poisoning
00:20:49the rest of our children.
00:20:50The media covered
00:20:51these stories over
00:20:53and over and over again.
00:20:55I think that's what drove
00:20:56the governor to ask
00:20:57for a special session.
00:20:59Governor Romer
00:21:00brought back
00:21:01all of our legislators
00:21:02to consider the issues
00:21:04related to youth violence
00:21:06and juvenile crime.
00:21:07And policymakers met
00:21:08in one of the most
00:21:09intensive five-day periods
00:21:11that I've ever experienced
00:21:13looking at how could
00:21:15we become tougher on crime.
00:21:17So it became a process
00:21:18of almost one-upsmanship.
00:21:22I remember very vividly
00:21:24one of the leaders
00:21:26of the State House
00:21:28of Representatives
00:21:28going to the podium
00:21:30on the second
00:21:31or third evening
00:21:32and describing
00:21:34what was going on
00:21:35around him
00:21:36as a feeding frenzy.
00:21:39The legislature seized
00:21:40upon a simple formula.
00:21:42Youths who committed
00:21:43adult crimes
00:21:44should be treated
00:21:45as adults.
00:21:47And because adults
00:21:48could be sentenced
00:21:48since 1991
00:21:50to life without parole,
00:21:53so were juveniles.
00:21:54And I'm not sure
00:21:55we really even knew
00:21:56what we were doing
00:21:57when we decided
00:21:58that juveniles
00:21:59should be direct filed on
00:22:02and should start serving
00:22:02life without parole.
00:22:04That was very reactive.
00:22:06But the whole identity
00:22:07of children got lost.
00:22:10And we started seeing
00:22:11prosecutors say things like,
00:22:13these aren't children,
00:22:14these are murderers.
00:22:17Charging juveniles
00:22:19as adults
00:22:19was left to the discretion
00:22:20of the prosecutors.
00:22:22They could now file
00:22:23charges directly,
00:22:25taking the process
00:22:26out of the hands
00:22:26of judges.
00:22:27Since I have been
00:22:30on the bench
00:22:30in juvenile court
00:22:31since September of 1998,
00:22:34we have not had
00:22:35a transfer hearing
00:22:36in Denver Juvenile Court.
00:22:38The cases that have been held,
00:22:40the juvenile cases
00:22:41that have gone
00:22:42to adult court,
00:22:43that decision
00:22:44has been solely made
00:22:45by the district attorney's office
00:22:47based upon the charge
00:22:48that they have decided
00:22:49to file against the juvenile
00:22:51as well as the child's age.
00:22:53We do that.
00:22:54We make that decision.
00:22:55Are we going to treat
00:22:56this individual
00:22:57as a juvenile
00:22:58or are we going to treat
00:23:00him as an adult?
00:23:01I have to tell you,
00:23:02in first-degree murder
00:23:03and these kinds
00:23:04of first-degree murders,
00:23:05most of the time
00:23:06we treat them as adults.
00:23:09These are egregious crimes.
00:23:13Crime has always been
00:23:15a big political issue,
00:23:16and so it's very easy
00:23:17for politicians to say,
00:23:19let's punish.
00:23:20Let's make the sentences longer.
00:23:23Let's not let people get out.
00:23:27Norm Mueller is a defense attorney
00:23:29in Denver
00:23:30who has been practicing there
00:23:31for 35 years.
00:23:34There are two cases
00:23:35that I was personally involved with
00:23:37that I think illustrate
00:23:38the change that has occurred
00:23:40in Colorado.
00:23:41In the late 80s,
00:23:42I represented a 14-year-old boy
00:23:44who was charged
00:23:45with first-degree murder.
00:23:46It was a direct file.
00:23:49He was charged
00:23:50with first-degree murder
00:23:50as an adult,
00:23:51and the result
00:23:54of that case
00:23:54was that he,
00:23:56while he sustained
00:23:57a felony conviction
00:23:59as an adult,
00:24:00he was given
00:24:00a five-year sentence
00:24:01to the juvenile justice system.
00:24:04That case is very similar
00:24:05to the Eric Jensen case.
00:24:08Both of them
00:24:09fit the profile
00:24:10of being with somebody else
00:24:12who committed a murder
00:24:13and serving probably
00:24:14more fundamentally
00:24:16as an accessory.
00:24:18Yet Eric Jensen
00:24:19was prosecuted
00:24:20also as an adult
00:24:22but given life
00:24:23without parole
00:24:23in prison.
00:24:24Eric Jensen,
00:24:35now 25,
00:24:37has been in prison
00:24:38for eight years.
00:24:44Where would we be today
00:24:45if Eric weren't there?
00:24:47We'd probably have moved
00:24:49at least for the wintertime
00:24:50to some other place,
00:24:51so it has kept us here
00:24:53because we don't think
00:24:55about let's go buy
00:24:56a house someplace else.
00:24:58We think about
00:24:59let's stay here
00:25:00where we can stay
00:25:01close enough to Eric
00:25:02that we can go
00:25:03and see him
00:25:04on the weekends.
00:25:07It's like other people
00:25:09say it's Sunday,
00:25:10it's time to go to church.
00:25:11We say it's Sunday,
00:25:12it's time to go see Eric.
00:25:16It's a round trip
00:25:17of six hours.
00:25:20We just don't think
00:25:21about it anymore.
00:25:21It's just something
00:25:22that we do.
00:25:25How can I not do that?
00:25:26He's my son.
00:25:32I really and truly
00:25:33I don't think
00:25:34there's been a day
00:25:34go by that we haven't
00:25:36talked about him
00:25:36in one way or another.
00:25:39He's always on our mind.
00:25:41At home in a wealthy
00:25:47suburb of Denver,
00:25:50Kurt Jensen,
00:25:50a venture capitalist,
00:25:52and his wife Pat
00:25:53cling to everything
00:25:54their son Eric
00:25:55ever owned.
00:25:58His toys,
00:26:01his baseball caps,
00:26:05his musical instruments,
00:26:08his paintings.
00:26:11You go through
00:26:13the same stages
00:26:14of grief
00:26:14that you go through
00:26:15when someone dies.
00:26:16First you're distraught
00:26:17and you cry all the time
00:26:18and then you deny
00:26:20and then you get angry
00:26:22and then eventually
00:26:23you accept.
00:26:24And so I'm sort of
00:26:26at the acceptance stage,
00:26:28but I'm still angry.
00:26:34It all started
00:26:35when 15-year-old
00:26:36Nathan Ibanez
00:26:37came into their lives
00:26:38as the new guitarist
00:26:40in Eric's band
00:26:41named Trouble Bound.
00:26:45We just clicked.
00:26:47I know somebody
00:26:48who is loyal
00:26:49and I value it
00:26:50above pretty much
00:26:51everything else.
00:26:53And Nate is
00:26:54above everything else
00:26:55loyal.
00:26:56And I saw it
00:26:58in him immediately.
00:27:00He was
00:27:01a really nice boy.
00:27:04He was always pleasant,
00:27:05extremely well behaved.
00:27:08There was something
00:27:09about him
00:27:10when I first met him
00:27:11that made me
00:27:12a little uncomfortable,
00:27:13but I couldn't
00:27:14tell you what it was.
00:27:16It wasn't something
00:27:17about Nathan
00:27:19in particular.
00:27:20It was just
00:27:21a feeling I got
00:27:26when I met him
00:27:27that there was
00:27:29trouble ahead.
00:27:30When trouble came
00:27:33one year later,
00:27:35it was beyond
00:27:36anything she could
00:27:37have imagined.
00:27:3816-year-old
00:27:39Nathan Ibanez,
00:27:40a troubled teen,
00:27:41allegedly beat
00:27:42and strangled his mother
00:27:43to death.
00:27:44If convicted,
00:27:45Ibanez could spend
00:27:46life in prison
00:27:47without parole.
00:27:49We were
00:27:50so shocked.
00:27:53It was just like
00:27:54out of the blue
00:27:54to us.
00:27:55I mean,
00:27:55we knew that there
00:27:56were things going on,
00:27:57but it didn't seem
00:27:57like it was
00:27:58that extreme
00:28:00that it would
00:28:01cause that kind
00:28:01of reaction.
00:28:04Four days
00:28:05after Julia
00:28:06Ibanez was killed,
00:28:08Eric and I
00:28:09had a long talk
00:28:10about what went on
00:28:11and he told me
00:28:13exactly what had
00:28:13happened.
00:28:19He said that
00:28:20he had driven
00:28:21home Nathan
00:28:22from work that day.
00:28:27Nathan apparently
00:28:28felt very agitated
00:28:30that night.
00:28:31He said,
00:28:32well,
00:28:33I'm going to go up.
00:28:35Eric waited in the
00:28:36car for quite a while,
00:28:3720 minutes to half
00:28:38an hour,
00:28:38went up to the door
00:28:40and knocked
00:28:40and Nathan's mother,
00:28:41Julie,
00:28:42answered the door.
00:28:44She immediately
00:28:45told Eric to go
00:28:46to Nathan's bedroom,
00:28:48which he did.
00:28:50He started to walk
00:28:50into the room
00:28:51and as he walked
00:28:52into the room
00:28:52he turned and looked
00:28:53over his shoulder
00:28:54and he saw Nathan
00:28:55strike his mother
00:28:56with a fireplace
00:28:56implement.
00:28:58Nathan was yelling,
00:29:00you'll never do
00:29:01this to me again.
00:29:02You'll never do
00:29:03this to me again.
00:29:05Basically,
00:29:06I was panicking
00:29:06at that point.
00:29:08After, you know,
00:29:0915 or 20 seconds
00:29:10I heard silence
00:29:11and so I figured
00:29:13that their fight
00:29:15was done.
00:29:16There's a dividing
00:29:17wall in the middle
00:29:18of the house
00:29:19and when I came
00:29:20around it
00:29:20there was blood
00:29:21everywhere.
00:29:22and Eric
00:29:24looked down
00:29:25and said,
00:29:27I don't know
00:29:28what you're doing.
00:29:29At that point
00:29:30Nathan handed him
00:29:31the fireplace instrument
00:29:32and then he just
00:29:34fell over
00:29:34and I think
00:29:35fainted.
00:29:37There's a pool
00:29:38of blood
00:29:40on the floor.
00:29:42I ended up
00:29:42on my knees
00:29:43in it
00:29:43right there
00:29:45and that's
00:29:45when it ended up
00:29:49he strangled her.
00:29:50Nathan had her
00:29:51in a stranglehold
00:29:52with the fireplace
00:29:52instrument
00:29:53and she was dead.
00:29:56I couldn't believe it.
00:29:58I really couldn't believe
00:29:59that he hadn't stopped it
00:30:00or that he hadn't
00:30:02run away
00:30:02or something
00:30:03and tried to get help
00:30:04or tried to stop
00:30:06Nate or something.
00:30:08I'm sure there was
00:30:08a lot I could have done.
00:30:11I didn't do any of it.
00:30:14So,
00:30:14I guess
00:30:17like I said
00:30:20in retrospect
00:30:20I should
00:30:21it should have never
00:30:23started
00:30:23ever.
00:30:25Eric
00:30:25was pretty much
00:30:27a normal kid.
00:30:28I don't think
00:30:28he could have
00:30:29really understood
00:30:30what was going on
00:30:31and grasped
00:30:33the situation
00:30:34involved.
00:30:35So,
00:30:36I don't think
00:30:37he was prepared
00:30:38for anything
00:30:38like that happening.
00:30:40He knew that
00:30:41things were messed up
00:30:41in my house
00:30:42between myself
00:30:44and my parents
00:30:45but
00:30:45he was just a kid,
00:30:47you know.
00:30:51It wasn't just Eric
00:30:52who couldn't understand
00:30:53what was going on
00:30:54in the Ibanez household.
00:30:56His parents too
00:30:57had been troubled.
00:31:01The more we got
00:31:02to know of Nathan
00:31:02and to know
00:31:04his parents
00:31:05it became
00:31:06rather painfully
00:31:07obvious
00:31:08that there was
00:31:09something wrong.
00:31:12his parents' study
00:31:14was not doing
00:31:15well in school
00:31:15and would periodically
00:31:17blame that
00:31:18on the band.
00:31:24They would come
00:31:26to one of the band's
00:31:27performances
00:31:28and everything
00:31:28would be wonderful
00:31:29and then the next week
00:31:30they would tell him
00:31:31he couldn't be
00:31:31in the band anymore
00:31:32and they'd come
00:31:33and get his stuff
00:31:34and they'd leave
00:31:34because they thought
00:31:36the boys were
00:31:36a bad influence
00:31:37or something
00:31:37and then
00:31:38then two weeks
00:31:41later
00:31:41they'd let him
00:31:42come back.
00:31:43I mean it was
00:31:43the up and down
00:31:44reward punishment
00:31:45kind of thing
00:31:46it just drove me
00:31:47crazy.
00:31:49A lot of times
00:31:49I was trying to do
00:31:50what other normal
00:31:51kids were doing
00:31:51but for me
00:31:53it was always
00:31:53this insane battle
00:31:54I mean I had
00:31:55to fight
00:31:57logically
00:31:58and plead
00:32:01and beg
00:32:01just to do
00:32:02normal things
00:32:02that other kids
00:32:03were doing
00:32:03it was
00:32:04it was very
00:32:05stressful
00:32:05and difficult.
00:32:06I used to talk
00:32:07to his mother
00:32:08a lot.
00:32:09At one point
00:32:10she asked
00:32:12if Nathan could
00:32:13stay at our
00:32:14house for two weeks
00:32:15which I thought
00:32:15was really strange
00:32:16given their
00:32:17behavior before.
00:32:19She and her
00:32:20husband were
00:32:20having problems
00:32:21and they were
00:32:22trying to work
00:32:23out a reconciliation.
00:32:26She said
00:32:26she was afraid
00:32:27and that was
00:32:28the word she used
00:32:29she was afraid
00:32:30that if
00:32:30she
00:32:31if Nathan
00:32:32were there
00:32:32with them
00:32:34while she
00:32:35and her husband
00:32:35were trying
00:32:35to make up
00:32:36that her husband
00:32:38would hurt him.
00:32:40That's what she said.
00:32:41She said
00:32:42I'm just
00:32:42I'm afraid
00:32:42for Nathan.
00:32:45Pat was
00:32:46constantly startled
00:32:47by Julie's
00:32:48revelations.
00:32:50She told me
00:32:51two or three times
00:32:52that she followed
00:32:53him
00:32:54when he would
00:32:55go to work
00:32:56or when he was
00:32:56going
00:32:57he went to a
00:32:58dance or something
00:32:58and she followed
00:33:00him.
00:33:02A normal parent
00:33:03I'm sure
00:33:04wants to know
00:33:05what their kid's
00:33:06doing but I doubt
00:33:06they follow him
00:33:07around at 3 o'clock
00:33:08in the morning
00:33:08when they're
00:33:09you know
00:33:09out teepeeing.
00:33:12All the boys
00:33:13stayed over here
00:33:14a lot because
00:33:14Eric had his own
00:33:16place down in the
00:33:17basement and so
00:33:17they had some
00:33:18privacy.
00:33:19So at least
00:33:20three or four times
00:33:21a week he would
00:33:22call and ask
00:33:22their parents
00:33:23if they could
00:33:23stay over.
00:33:24And Nathan
00:33:26was never allowed
00:33:26to stay over.
00:33:27He would call
00:33:28and ask his mother
00:33:29if he could
00:33:29stay.
00:33:30And he'd be
00:33:32on the phone
00:33:32for an hour.
00:33:34And he was like
00:33:35you know
00:33:35let me call
00:33:35my mom.
00:33:37And I was like
00:33:37that's cool.
00:33:38So he went in
00:33:39to call his mom
00:33:39and the rest
00:33:40of us all
00:33:40stayed out there.
00:33:42About an hour
00:33:43or so went by
00:33:44and you know
00:33:45we started
00:33:46realizing you know
00:33:46where's Nate?
00:33:48And I went
00:33:50into the house
00:33:52to go check
00:33:52to find out
00:33:53where he was
00:33:53and he was
00:33:53sitting in the
00:33:54room in a
00:33:55dark room
00:33:55and talking
00:33:58to his mom
00:33:59and his voice
00:34:03was a lot
00:34:03different than
00:34:04I was used
00:34:05to hearing it.
00:34:05It was like
00:34:06childish almost
00:34:07and it was
00:34:08and he was
00:34:10saying things
00:34:11like you know
00:34:11I love you
00:34:12and you know
00:34:14I love you
00:34:14you know
00:34:15I'll do that
00:34:15for you
00:34:16and this
00:34:16and that
00:34:16and kind
00:34:19of creeped
00:34:19me out.
00:34:20So I grabbed
00:34:21another phone
00:34:21in a different
00:34:22room to hear
00:34:23what was going
00:34:24on.
00:34:25And his mom
00:34:27was on the
00:34:27other end
00:34:27talking about
00:34:28you know
00:34:29why don't
00:34:29you take care
00:34:30of me
00:34:30you're supposed
00:34:31to take care
00:34:31of me tonight
00:34:32you're supposed
00:34:32to love me
00:34:32tonight
00:34:33and variations
00:34:36of that
00:34:37for over
00:34:38and over
00:34:39for a good
00:34:40you know
00:34:4010-15 minutes
00:34:41and I wasn't
00:34:44quite sure
00:34:44how to take
00:34:46that
00:34:46how to deal
00:34:46with that
00:34:47I hung up
00:34:50and you know
00:34:50Nate ended
00:34:51up not being
00:34:51able to stay
00:34:53over.
00:34:54The way my
00:34:54mother was
00:34:55that she always
00:34:55brought it
00:34:55down to
00:34:56an issue
00:34:56of whether
00:34:56or not
00:34:57I loved
00:34:57her
00:34:57so
00:34:58a lot
00:34:59of times
00:34:59she would
00:35:00bring that
00:35:00down to
00:35:00the level
00:35:01well
00:35:01you know
00:35:01you don't
00:35:02want to
00:35:02come home
00:35:02because you
00:35:03don't love
00:35:03me
00:35:03or stuff
00:35:04like that.
00:35:07That was the
00:35:07first time I
00:35:08realized that
00:35:08there might
00:35:09be a whole
00:35:10lot more
00:35:10going on
00:35:11and I guess
00:35:15there's just
00:35:15no really good
00:35:16way to broach
00:35:16that subject
00:35:17with your
00:35:17friend
00:35:18you know
00:35:19it's not
00:35:20something
00:35:20that kids
00:35:21talk about
00:35:22everybody
00:35:25pretty much
00:35:25suspected
00:35:25it
00:35:26and nobody
00:35:28actually
00:35:29came right
00:35:30out and
00:35:30said it.
00:35:31Those
00:35:32a lot of
00:35:32things that
00:35:33we think
00:35:33the problems
00:35:35that we have
00:35:35in our lives
00:35:36that we think
00:35:36we're keeping
00:35:37hidden so well
00:35:37a lot of
00:35:38it's just
00:35:38not hidden
00:35:39at all
00:35:39and other
00:35:40people know
00:35:40it quite
00:35:41easily.
00:35:47My mother
00:35:48a lot of
00:35:50times it
00:35:50would happen
00:35:50like this
00:35:51she's crying
00:35:52or something
00:35:53sad so
00:35:54I don't
00:35:56like to see
00:35:57her cry
00:35:57so I
00:35:58ask her
00:35:59what's wrong.
00:36:01I try to
00:36:01get her to
00:36:02talk about
00:36:02whatever it
00:36:02was that
00:36:03was making
00:36:03her sad
00:36:04and a lot
00:36:06of times
00:36:07it would
00:36:07involve me
00:36:09coming and
00:36:09giving her
00:36:10hugs and
00:36:10staying in
00:36:11bed with
00:36:11her
00:36:11and letting
00:36:11her unload
00:36:12and a few
00:36:13times that
00:36:14evolved into
00:36:15her doing
00:36:18sexual things
00:36:19to me that
00:36:19she shouldn't
00:36:19have been
00:36:20doing.
00:36:22What was
00:36:23you feeling
00:36:23at that
00:36:23point?
00:36:25I was
00:36:25afraid and
00:36:26embarrassed
00:36:26and I
00:36:27wanted to
00:36:27go away.
00:36:28Not if I
00:36:29enjoyed the
00:36:29least?
00:36:30No, not
00:36:31at first
00:36:32but you
00:36:32know those
00:36:33types of
00:36:34physical
00:36:35responses are
00:36:35inherently
00:36:36enjoyable but
00:36:38it's not
00:36:38the kind
00:36:38of it's
00:36:39like
00:36:39it's like
00:36:40having oil
00:36:42on your
00:36:43skin.
00:36:44You know
00:36:44what I
00:36:44mean?
00:36:44It's a
00:36:45dirty
00:36:45sensation
00:36:45and you
00:36:47don't want
00:36:47it there.
00:36:47You want
00:36:48to scrape
00:36:48it off.
00:36:50Does that
00:36:50make sense?
00:36:51Yeah.
00:36:53Yeah.
00:36:53Did you
00:36:54ever discuss
00:36:54it with her?
00:36:55No, I
00:36:56didn't want
00:36:56to talk
00:36:56about any
00:36:57of that.
00:36:57I mean
00:36:57the least
00:36:59I talked
00:36:59about things
00:37:00and when
00:37:00I kept
00:37:00them away
00:37:01I was
00:37:02kind of
00:37:03hoping that
00:37:03they would
00:37:04just go
00:37:04away and
00:37:05then if
00:37:06I don't
00:37:06talk about
00:37:07them, if
00:37:07they stay
00:37:09away and
00:37:10hidden then
00:37:10they'll go
00:37:11away and
00:37:11then things
00:37:12can be
00:37:12maybe be
00:37:13normal here
00:37:13sometime
00:37:14soon.
00:37:21Eric and
00:37:21Brett Baker,
00:37:22another member
00:37:23of the band,
00:37:24felt that
00:37:24Nathan needed
00:37:25help.
00:37:27We tried to
00:37:28do things
00:37:28ourselves for
00:37:29a little while
00:37:29you know
00:37:29because Nate
00:37:30ran away
00:37:30a couple
00:37:30times but
00:37:32every time
00:37:33he ran
00:37:33away he
00:37:33would get
00:37:34brought
00:37:34right back.
00:37:36So Brett
00:37:36and I
00:37:37tell both
00:37:37of our
00:37:38parents all
00:37:38the stuff
00:37:39that we
00:37:39know
00:37:39that we've
00:37:40figured out
00:37:41so far
00:37:42which is
00:37:43basically
00:37:43we know
00:37:45his dad's
00:37:45beating him
00:37:46we know
00:37:47they're
00:37:47mentally
00:37:49messing with
00:37:49him at
00:37:50some point
00:37:50and I'm
00:37:50suspecting
00:37:51that the
00:37:51mom's
00:37:51doing
00:37:51something
00:37:52worse.
00:37:53The fact
00:37:54that Eric
00:37:54came to
00:37:55us and
00:37:55asked us
00:37:56to help
00:37:56in this
00:37:57situation
00:37:57was
00:37:58difficult
00:37:59for him
00:37:59to
00:38:00tell us
00:38:02something
00:38:03personal
00:38:03about
00:38:03his
00:38:03friend
00:38:04that
00:38:04his
00:38:04friend
00:38:04probably
00:38:05didn't
00:38:05want
00:38:06us
00:38:06to
00:38:06know
00:38:06and
00:38:07to
00:38:10ask
00:38:10us
00:38:10to
00:38:10get
00:38:10involved
00:38:11and
00:38:11get
00:38:12that
00:38:12was
00:38:13a
00:38:13hard
00:38:13thing
00:38:13for
00:38:13him
00:38:13to
00:38:13do.
00:38:15The Jensen's
00:38:16consulted a
00:38:17county social
00:38:17service worker.
00:38:20The unofficial
00:38:21view of the
00:38:22department was
00:38:23that they
00:38:24didn't have
00:38:25enough people
00:38:25or staff
00:38:26or money
00:38:26to take
00:38:27care of
00:38:28boys
00:38:28who were
00:38:28in their
00:38:29teens
00:38:29and
00:38:30that
00:38:30those
00:38:30boys
00:38:31were
00:38:31seen
00:38:31to
00:38:31be
00:38:31able
00:38:32to
00:38:32take
00:38:32care
00:38:32of
00:38:32themselves.
00:38:33So
00:38:33we
00:38:35can't
00:38:35do
00:38:35anything?
00:38:36There's
00:38:36nothing
00:38:36to do
00:38:37here?
00:38:37And she
00:38:37said,
00:38:37I could
00:38:38fill
00:38:38something
00:38:39out,
00:38:39but I'm
00:38:39telling you
00:38:40nothing
00:38:40will
00:38:40happen.
00:38:41And
00:38:42we were
00:38:43just
00:38:43appalled.
00:38:45It
00:38:45made me
00:38:46so mad
00:38:50to know
00:38:50that that
00:38:53type of
00:38:54stuff was
00:38:54happening
00:38:55to people.
00:38:55Because
00:38:56honestly,
00:38:58I live
00:38:58in a
00:38:58sheltered,
00:38:59I grew
00:38:59up
00:38:59sheltered.
00:39:00My parents
00:39:01are perfect
00:39:03down there.
00:39:06If I did
00:39:08something wrong,
00:39:09I got
00:39:09grounded.
00:39:10It never
00:39:11hit me.
00:39:12They were
00:39:12always there
00:39:12to give
00:39:13me the
00:39:13right
00:39:13lessons.
00:39:14I always
00:39:15had food.
00:39:16I always
00:39:16had a
00:39:16warm place
00:39:16to sleep.
00:39:18I never
00:39:19felt like
00:39:20I was
00:39:20worthless.
00:39:24And here's
00:39:24this other
00:39:25kid who's
00:39:25getting the
00:39:26exact
00:39:26opposite
00:39:26for me.
00:39:28And I
00:39:28thought,
00:39:29how am I
00:39:31the first
00:39:31person that's
00:39:32noticed this?
00:39:33Really?
00:39:34How has
00:39:35there not
00:39:35been somebody
00:39:36in the
00:39:36last 16
00:39:37years that
00:39:38hasn't
00:39:39looked at
00:39:39this kid
00:39:39and thought,
00:39:41you know,
00:39:42why not
00:39:43help him?
00:39:44Eventually,
00:39:45the prosecution
00:39:46would argue
00:39:47that Eric's
00:39:47very concern
00:39:48and care
00:39:49for his
00:39:49friend were
00:39:50instrumental
00:39:51in Nathan
00:39:52killing his
00:39:52mother.
00:39:53It was
00:39:57June 5th,
00:39:581998.
00:40:00That day
00:40:01was basically
00:40:01the same
00:40:02as any
00:40:02other.
00:40:04Nate called
00:40:05earlier in the
00:40:05day and asked
00:40:05if I'd give him
00:40:06a ride home.
00:40:08And he was
00:40:09telling me,
00:40:09man, you know,
00:40:10things are really
00:40:10going bad.
00:40:12And I told him,
00:40:13well, you know,
00:40:13we'll talk more
00:40:14when I come pick
00:40:14you up.
00:40:16Eric picked up
00:40:17Nathan at
00:40:17the bagel store
00:40:18where he
00:40:18worked.
00:40:21Nathan was
00:40:22anxious and
00:40:23depressed.
00:40:25Things reached
00:40:26a point where
00:40:26I just couldn't
00:40:27keep everything
00:40:28that had been
00:40:29going on
00:40:29inside of
00:40:30myself anymore.
00:40:31I knew that
00:40:32something had to
00:40:33be done,
00:40:33but I wasn't
00:40:33sure what.
00:40:35I wasn't sure
00:40:35if I was going
00:40:36to kill myself
00:40:36or what was
00:40:37going to happen.
00:40:39I felt like
00:40:39I was in a
00:40:40little box
00:40:40that kept
00:40:41getting smaller,
00:40:42and the box
00:40:42has sharp things
00:40:43on it that cut
00:40:44me every now
00:40:44and then.
00:40:44And all I
00:40:46want to do
00:40:47is get outside
00:40:47the box
00:40:47and have
00:40:48some peace.
00:40:50But I got
00:40:51to the point
00:40:52where I realized
00:40:54that, well,
00:40:55there is no
00:40:56escape from the
00:40:57box.
00:40:57It's not
00:40:58possible to get
00:40:59out.
00:41:02He talked
00:41:03about killing
00:41:03his parents.
00:41:06I could not
00:41:06fathom that
00:41:08anybody actually
00:41:08could do that,
00:41:10that that was
00:41:11even an option,
00:41:12killing anybody.
00:41:14I didn't take
00:41:16it seriously
00:41:16because I
00:41:17couldn't imagine
00:41:19that it could
00:41:19be serious.
00:41:25I hit her.
00:41:29And it just
00:41:30escalated and
00:41:30didn't stop.
00:41:33Was it rage?
00:41:35No, it was
00:41:36more sadness.
00:41:39You killed her
00:41:44with sadness?
00:41:45Excuse me?
00:41:46I was sad.
00:41:47I was very sad.
00:41:52Did she know
00:41:53what was going
00:41:53on?
00:41:54I think that
00:41:55she did.
00:42:00Did you know
00:42:01what was going
00:42:01on?
00:42:02I think that
00:42:03I did, too.
00:42:03Okay.
00:42:09It's not
00:42:10something you
00:42:10can plan for.
00:42:13I think it
00:42:14took both of
00:42:14us completely
00:42:15by surprise.
00:42:19Several years
00:42:19later, we were
00:42:20talking about
00:42:21this, and he
00:42:21said, well, you
00:42:22know, it all
00:42:22happened in, like,
00:42:24a minute.
00:42:25It was over.
00:42:2745 seconds, a
00:42:28minute, and it
00:42:28was over.
00:42:30And I said,
00:42:30what?
00:42:32Because when it's
00:42:33described, when you
00:42:35heard it being
00:42:36described at the
00:42:37trial and when Eric
00:42:37was talking about
00:42:38before, it sounded
00:42:39like it took
00:42:40forever.
00:42:40It went on and
00:42:41on and on.
00:42:42And he said, no.
00:42:43I got there.
00:42:44I ran in the
00:42:45other room.
00:42:46I looked around.
00:42:47I came back in,
00:42:48and half a minute
00:42:50later, it was
00:42:51over before you
00:42:53even have a chance
00:42:54to decide what
00:42:55you want to do.
00:42:56It's over.
00:42:58So then he said
00:42:59he helped Nate
00:43:00clean up the mess.
00:43:01They called Brett
00:43:02over to help
00:43:03clean up.
00:43:04They took all the
00:43:05messy stuff away,
00:43:07and they threw it
00:43:07in dumpsters and
00:43:08things, and helped
00:43:10Nate carry his
00:43:11mother's body that
00:43:12they'd rolled up in
00:43:12a rug, put it in
00:43:15the car, and Nate
00:43:19took off, and they
00:43:20came home and said
00:43:23nothing.
00:43:25It was at least a
00:43:26couple hours later
00:43:27before Brett and I
00:43:27were both kind of
00:43:28going, somebody's
00:43:30actually dead.
00:43:31Like, there was
00:43:31several times during
00:43:33that night when I
00:43:34thought for sure that
00:43:35his mom was going to
00:43:36get up and, like,
00:43:38be pissed at us,
00:43:41because it just did
00:43:44not occur to me that
00:43:45she was actually dead.
00:43:50Nathan was arrested
00:43:51a few hours later,
00:43:53standing dazed near his
00:43:54car in an empty
00:43:55parking lot, his
00:43:57mother's body beside
00:43:58him.
00:44:01He was charged as an
00:44:03adult with first-degree
00:44:04murder.
00:44:08Eric was charged with
00:44:10destroying evidence and
00:44:11was out on bail under
00:44:12electronic surveillance.
00:44:16But then Brett, who had
00:44:17also helped clean up the
00:44:18crime scene, and who had
00:44:20two prior charges against
00:44:21him, made a deal with the
00:44:23prosecution, implicating
00:44:25Eric in the murder by
00:44:27saying that Eric had told
00:44:28him that he, too, hit
00:44:29Julie Ibanez.
00:44:31All of Brett's charges
00:44:33were then dismissed, as
00:44:35Eric's charges changed to
00:44:37conspiracy to commit murder
00:44:38and complicity in murder.
00:44:42When they charged him with
00:44:44murder, they just came to
00:44:46the door and took him away.
00:44:50He was shaking so badly
00:44:53that he could hardly stand up.
00:44:56He was so afraid.
00:44:56Having them take your child
00:45:03away and knowing that you
00:45:05have no control, that
00:45:07there's nothing that you can
00:45:08do to protect him from
00:45:10whatever's going to happen,
00:45:12is probably the most
00:45:14helpless, horrible feeling
00:45:20that I've ever had, ever,
00:45:22in my whole life.
00:45:22Eric's trial was scheduled
00:45:27first, with discussions
00:45:29going on between his lawyer
00:45:31and the district attorney
00:45:32about a plea bargain.
00:45:34Then it happened.
00:45:37At one point, rushing up
00:45:38beneath the second floor
00:45:39window to grab this wounded
00:45:41boy.
00:45:41There was gunshots, and we
00:45:42all got down, and we
00:45:43crawled out, and we all ran.
00:45:45Columbine High in Littleton,
00:45:46Colorado, on the edge of
00:45:48Denver.
00:45:48This isn't Kosovo.
00:45:49This is Littleton, Colorado,
00:45:51a prosperous suburb of Denver.
00:45:52My trial came, like, two,
00:45:55three months after Columbine,
00:45:57and there's no sympathy
00:45:58for rich little suburban
00:46:02white kids who kill.
00:46:03Eric Harris and Dylan
00:46:05Klebold, the killers are
00:46:07much less...
00:46:08Every day leading up to
00:46:09Eric's trial, including
00:46:10the time of his trial, it
00:46:12was on the news about
00:46:13Columbine every day.
00:46:14Littleton, Colorado.
00:46:16Our address is Littleton,
00:46:17Colorado.
00:46:18Our son was named Eric.
00:46:20There was another boy named
00:46:21Eric from Littleton, Colorado
00:46:23that killed his classmates.
00:46:25Being from the same area,
00:46:26there was no possible way,
00:46:28in my opinion, that he could
00:46:29have gotten a fair trial.
00:46:32On August 11, 1999,
00:46:35Eric was found guilty of
00:46:36destroying evidence,
00:46:38conspiracy to commit murder,
00:46:39and complicity in murder.
00:46:42He was sentenced to life
00:46:43without parole.
00:46:46What did he actually do
00:46:47besides cleaning up?
00:46:49I don't remember him
00:46:50doing anything.
00:46:52I don't understand why
00:46:54he was even brought to prison
00:46:57at all, because he didn't
00:46:58do anything.
00:47:00So, I was pretty shocked.
00:47:03But at the time, I was also,
00:47:05I was just going through
00:47:06jail myself.
00:47:08And so, it was hard to fathom
00:47:11everything that was going on.
00:47:13Today, we're bringing you
00:47:14highlights from Nathan Ibanez'
00:47:15murder trial held a few months
00:47:16ago in Castle Rock, Colorado.
00:47:18Such a sad story of a young boy
00:47:20gone bad.
00:47:22Nathan's trial for first-degree
00:47:23murder took place a couple
00:47:24of months later, in the fall of
00:47:261999, and lasted three days,
00:47:30including jury selection
00:47:31and sentencing.
00:47:33It was broadcast and then
00:47:34rebroadcast on national
00:47:36television, with Nathan
00:47:38always presented as the bad
00:47:40seed.
00:47:41These kids have a hole in
00:47:42their soul, ladies and
00:47:43gentlemen.
00:47:44You could drive a truck
00:47:45through it.
00:47:45At trial, the prosecutor
00:47:46didn't really have a clear
00:47:48motive for me.
00:47:49They said they didn't know
00:47:50why I'd done what I'd done,
00:47:52and they weren't sure if
00:47:53they'd ever really know, ever.
00:47:55It just seemed to be
00:47:56something without a reason.
00:47:59Bad kid.
00:48:01That's what they thought.
00:48:02I think that they thought I
00:48:03was a bad kid.
00:48:06The defense attorney chose
00:48:08not to call any witnesses at
00:48:09all, and refuses to comment
00:48:12on the case without a court
00:48:13order.
00:48:15I think that the lawyer's
00:48:16real job was to make sure
00:48:18that people didn't testify on
00:48:20my behalf, and that I didn't
00:48:22get up and say anything about
00:48:23anything that was going on,
00:48:24and that I just went to prison
00:48:25quietly and without much
00:48:28fanfare.
00:48:29And that's what happened.
00:48:30And that's what happened,
00:48:31yeah.
00:48:31It has been eight years.
00:48:42While the Jensen's weekly
00:48:43visits to Eric continued,
00:48:45there was some change in the
00:48:47political atmosphere.
00:48:51In spite of the dire predictions
00:48:52of the 80s and 90s,
00:48:55teenage crime rates went down.
00:48:57Fear of young offenders seemed
00:49:00to subside somewhat.
00:49:02In 2005, the U.S. Supreme Court
00:49:06abolished the death penalty
00:49:07for juveniles, and there were
00:49:09some discussions across the
00:49:11country about re-examining the
00:49:13harsh punishments meted out to
00:49:15juvenile offenders.
00:49:15In Colorado, Pat and Kurt Jensen
00:49:23contributed by investing their
00:49:25time and money in a foundation
00:49:26they called Pendulum.
00:49:30We couldn't stand the thought
00:49:32that there would be other parents
00:49:34going through the same thing if
00:49:35we could help it.
00:49:38We thought that we would form an
00:49:41organization that would try to
00:49:45change the laws, try to change the
00:49:47way things were done here, so that
00:49:49no other parent ever had to go
00:49:50through what we went through.
00:49:54It's been an ongoing battle now
00:49:56for six years, basically for
00:49:59educating the public and for
00:50:01working with the state
00:50:02legislature.
00:50:04It's a battle that only ends when
00:50:06this state legislature and the
00:50:09next governor agree that
00:50:12juveniles have to be treated
00:50:13differently than adults and that
00:50:14they have to be given a second
00:50:15chance.
00:50:19By 2006, after a vigorous campaign
00:50:23by the local media and lobbying by
00:50:25the Pendulum Foundation, a bill
00:50:27sponsored by Republican
00:50:28Representative Lynn Hefley finally
00:50:31reached the legislature.
00:50:33The passage of the bill was fraught with
00:50:35tensions.
00:50:37The victims' families were adamantly
00:50:40against it, while the powerful
00:50:42district attorney's counsel agreed only
00:50:45to a watered-down bill which changed
00:50:47the sentence for juveniles from life to
00:50:5040 years with possible parole at the
00:50:53end.
00:50:54The new law would apply only to future
00:50:57offenders.
00:50:58It would not apply to the 45 juveniles in
00:51:01Colorado already serving life without parole.
00:51:04The decision not to make it retroactive was
00:51:09probably a compromise, perhaps a political
00:51:13deal.
00:51:14Don't forget, the families of victims are very
00:51:16powerful advocates.
00:51:17One could certainly argue that if you were to
00:51:20make this law retroactive and re-sentence these
00:51:23juveniles to something less than life without
00:51:26parole, that you were taking something away from the
00:51:28families of victims, what they felt was a sentence that
00:51:32reflected a justice, perhaps a vengeance, that they
00:51:38felt they deserved because of the loss that they
00:51:40suffered.
00:51:41And I can certainly understand the politics of such a
00:51:44deal.
00:51:46Do you understand the justice of such a deal?
00:51:51Well, that's a very good question.
00:51:53I don't know that I understand the justice of such a deal.
00:51:55I think the politics of criminal punishment in the U.S.
00:52:00often trump issues of justice.
00:52:03So I'll understand it better as a political question than as
00:52:07a justice question.
00:52:12Mitch Morrissey, the district attorney in Denver, fought
00:52:15hard against making the law retroactive.
00:52:19His main reason, he says, was the victims' families.
00:52:23I have dealt with these families.
00:52:25I have been in these murder scenes.
00:52:28I've personally been involved in handling a lot of these cases.
00:52:32And again, we are talking about, for the most part,
00:52:36juvenile offenders that are some of the worst murderers in the
00:52:39history of the state of Colorado.
00:52:42And I don't think their age has anything to do with it.
00:52:45These are horrendous crimes.
00:52:48They took lives.
00:52:49They took sons.
00:52:50They took mothers.
00:52:51They took fathers.
00:52:52They took aunts.
00:52:54They took uncles.
00:52:55They took so much away from people.
00:52:57And we can never get it back.
00:52:59Their family gets to go to the prison system and spend Thanksgiving with them.
00:53:04We never got that.
00:53:05We have to go to the cemetery.
00:53:09Gail Pallone is a mother of a victim of juvenile crime.
00:53:12Her son was killed 10 years ago by then-17-year-old Trevor Jones.
00:53:19When Trevor was found guilty, they promised us that he would get life in prison with no chance
00:53:24of parole.
00:53:26The state promised us that.
00:53:28And the state should see to that, that's what happens.
00:53:33Gail's only child, Matthew Foley, was killed when he was 16.
00:53:40Matthew was a very giving, kind kid.
00:53:43He was the type of kid that brightened any room when he walked in it.
00:53:47He lived for sports.
00:53:49From the time he was little, I didn't have to worry about him watching violent movies or anything
00:53:53on TV because sports was on our TV all the time.
00:53:58Wanted to go to Notre Dame.
00:54:00He wanted to be a sports journalist.
00:54:02He was just a great kid.
00:54:07Trevor Jones did not do as well at that age.
00:54:11When he was 14, he started skipping school.
00:54:14And within the next three years, he drifted into alcohol and drugs.
00:54:19He had a record of several misdemeanor charges for fighting and driving under the influence.
00:54:24Then, in November 1996, he saw a chance to make some money off his classmate, Matt Foley.
00:54:33Matt was looking to buy a handgun for his cousin.
00:54:36I know that his cousin had asked him to go buy a gun.
00:54:41And I know that he was shopping with a friend.
00:54:43And he went to the mall.
00:54:47And they kept paging him.
00:54:50Trevor did.
00:54:51And I guess they had already set that up.
00:54:55Trevor devised a scheme to con Matt and arranged a meeting in a parking lot.
00:55:02The scheme was that I would pretend I was going to sell him the gun.
00:55:07And then him give me the money.
00:55:10And then I tell him to let me see the gun again so I could show him something about it.
00:55:14Then I would have both the money and the gun.
00:55:16And then we could leave.
00:55:17It was supposed to be kind of a foolproof scheme because you can't really go and say,
00:55:23hey, I was trying to buy a gun from a guy and he took my money.
00:55:27Because it's illegal.
00:55:28Because it is illegal.
00:55:29But it was not foolproof.
00:55:32Suddenly, Trevor said, the gun discharged.
00:55:36I didn't really realize what had happened.
00:55:38And then I heard JP scream something.
00:55:41And then I realized something really bad had happened.
00:55:45He turned around, he said, and ran.
00:55:49He hid outside through the night.
00:55:52Then read in the paper that Matt Foley was dead.
00:55:55It was horrible just knowing I had shot him.
00:56:00I didn't mean to shoot him at all.
00:56:02And then I find out that he died.
00:56:03And there's really no words to describe it.
00:56:08You know, I really can't put words to it.
00:56:13The police came to our door.
00:56:15I knew.
00:56:16I knew something was wrong.
00:56:19He was the type of kid that was always home on time.
00:56:22And he had a pager so I could page him.
00:56:26And even if he was on the highway coming home from the movies or something,
00:56:29he would get off the highway to call me.
00:56:32And he never called me back.
00:56:34So I knew.
00:56:35The police told us that Matt was dead.
00:56:38But I didn't really know that Trevor was wanted for killing him.
00:56:43Jennifer is Trevor Jones' older sister.
00:56:48And my mom kept saying, he was friends with Matt.
00:56:51He was friends with Matt.
00:56:53So it was just kind of confusing.
00:57:01I was trying to keep my mom calm.
00:57:03My dad wasn't there.
00:57:04He was at work.
00:57:05And so I told her, just wait and wait until you talk to Trevor.
00:57:14You don't know what's happened yet.
00:57:17And she was just really scared that he was going to kill himself that night.
00:57:22And we just, we were just on pins and needles until he turned himself in.
00:57:29He turned himself in the next morning.
00:57:35I went to the jail with my mom to visit Trevor.
00:57:40It was just really sad to see him in the jail.
00:57:43He was really scared.
00:57:45He was 17 and he was in the adult jail.
00:57:51Trevor went to trial in June 1997.
00:57:55He was charged as an adult with four crimes.
00:57:58Reckless manslaughter, conspiracy to commit robbery, robbery, and felony murder.
00:58:07The most serious of the charges was felony murder.
00:58:11I was still just so sure that people were going to understand that this was an accident.
00:58:21I was just so sure that they were going to understand that.
00:58:24The jury did, in fact, understand, and found Trevor guilty of reckless manslaughter.
00:58:31Attorney Kathleen Byrne explains.
00:58:33The jury thought that it was essentially a very bad accident.
00:58:38That is what reckless manslaughter is.
00:58:40But the jury also found him guilty of robbery, which resulted in the charge of felony murder
00:58:48and the punishment of life without parole.
00:58:52Felony murder is one form of first-degree murder in Colorado.
00:58:56There are various types of first-degree murder.
00:58:58The most common or the most well-known is after deliberation and with intent to cause a death.
00:59:04Felony murder is different in that it is what we call a strict liability crime.
00:59:11So long as you have committed certain acts, it doesn't matter what your intent was.
00:59:17In the case of felony murder, if you've committed, for example, the crime of robbery,
00:59:22and during that robbery or immediately thereafter or while you're fleeing from the robbery,
00:59:27the death of a person is caused because of the defendant's conduct, because of the robbery.
00:59:34It doesn't matter who causes that conduct.
00:59:37So long as it is caused in the context of that robbery or the flight from the robbery,
00:59:42then the defendant is responsible for that death.
00:59:46Kathleen Byrne is an independent appellate attorney who often works for the state.
00:59:51She represented the state in Trevor's case, defending the conviction of felony murder in his appeal.
00:59:58He committed the robbery, which is two to six years so far as I read the statute.
01:00:03He committed conspiracy to commit robbery, which I think is one to three years.
01:00:09And he committed reckless manslaughter, which I think is two to six years.
01:00:14The trial court could sentence them to run one after another or all at the same time.
01:00:19His sentence could have been between two and 15 years, the way I calculate it.
01:00:25But because of the felony murder rule, he was convicted of first-degree murder,
01:00:28and that's automatic life without parole.
01:00:31You mean life without parole instead of 12 to 15 years at the most that he could have gotten?
01:00:35And that's very, that is just the facts.
01:00:38That is not, there's not a shred of opinion in there.
01:00:40That is the fact.
01:00:42Do you have an opinion?
01:00:45No, I have no opinion.
01:00:46I mean, it's a very harsh rule.
01:00:50It's a very harsh rule.
01:00:52And I think a lot of people question whether it's an appropriate rule to maintain.
01:00:57It may be time for it to go.
01:01:01The felony murder statute has its roots in 12th century English law.
01:01:06It was abolished in England 50 years ago,
01:01:08in part because of public outcry over the unfairness of the punishment.
01:01:14The felony murder statute gets challenged all the time on the basis that it's unfair.
01:01:20And every time that it comes up in the appellate courts of Colorado,
01:01:23it is upheld because it, it is not unconstitutional
01:01:28and it is a matter for the General Assembly to change the law of felony murder.
01:01:35The courts have no choice but to uphold it at this point.
01:01:40Nationwide, it is estimated that a quarter of the young offenders sentenced to life without parole
01:01:45have been convicted of felony murder.
01:01:47It is a law that affects more juveniles than adults,
01:01:52since juveniles tend to act in groups.
01:01:56And felony murder assigns the same culpability to everyone involved in the underlying felony,
01:02:02even if a murder is committed by only one of the group.
01:02:07That's what happened in Colorado Springs in July 1999.
01:02:11No one knows for sure which of the three suspects killed Christopher Lohrmeyer.
01:02:18Officers arrived on the scene.
01:02:20They found one young male that had been shot in the back of the head.
01:02:24Police suspect it was an attempted carjacking.
01:02:27Lohrmeyer was just leaving work.
01:02:3117-year-old Christopher Lohrmeyer was killed instantly.
01:02:36Officers did a search of the area
01:02:38and did locate three juveniles who matched the description.
01:02:40Two of the three suspects confessed
01:02:44and made a deal for second-degree murder
01:02:47in exchange for implicating the third one, Andrew Medina.
01:02:52Medina was held in jail awaiting trial.
01:02:55He was 15 at the time.
01:02:58The main evidence against him was the word of his co-defendants.
01:03:02He was such a little kid.
01:03:04He was tiny physically.
01:03:06He was 5'3", maybe 120, 125 at the time.
01:03:09And he was so young emotionally.
01:03:12He's just a very young kid.
01:03:14It was so upsetting to Andy.
01:03:15He was sitting there trying so hard to hold it to him.
01:03:18Darren Cantor and Shawna Geiger were his attorneys.
01:03:23Andy would call every day,
01:03:25and I would talk to him just trying to keep him emotionally leveled out.
01:03:30And so I remember him very much on an emotional level.
01:03:36And he was really just one of the saddest, smallest,
01:03:42most pathetic children I've represented.
01:03:46Andy grew up with a dream of being somebody.
01:03:49Andy had a very poor family support.
01:04:00He had a broken family.
01:04:02His father was an alcoholic and came to court a few times intoxicated and very abusive.
01:04:07His mother had a very difficult time dealing with the proceedings and would sort of be in and out.
01:04:13He was, in essence, abandoned throughout the course of the trial.
01:04:17And so now the post-conviction lawyer's got to take it in.
01:04:20Geiger and Cantor were appointed by the court
01:04:23after Andy's original lawyer took a step that practically sealed his fate.
01:04:28Once the mistake's made, we couldn't undo it.
01:04:31That's the problem.
01:04:32I mean, his first attorney had him write, in essence, a letter of apology.
01:04:35I'm sorry for the death of your son.
01:04:38That's basically what the letter said.
01:04:40And she took that letter to the pastor and gave it to the pastor
01:04:43and said, do with this as you see fit.
01:04:46He gave it to the family of the victim, and they gave it to the DAs,
01:04:49and it was used at trial as basically a confession.
01:04:53Tom Carberry was his appeal lawyer.
01:04:55His original lawyer did the greatest disservice to a client I'd ever seen in my life.
01:05:03She belonged to a church in Colorado Springs,
01:05:06and she found out the victim was a member of the same church.
01:05:10His family was a member of the same church.
01:05:12And she got Andy to write a letter,
01:05:16or really she wrote the letter and had Andy write it out longhand.
01:05:21Basically, it was a letter saying, I apologize, I'm so sorry.
01:05:24He had never admitted doing the crime,
01:05:27but it made it clear that he knew about the crime,
01:05:31was involved in the crime,
01:05:33and that's enough for felony murder.
01:05:37And it's insane.
01:05:39You can't do that.
01:05:40You're a defense attorney.
01:05:41You need to protect your client.
01:05:43Andrew hadn't confessed.
01:05:44He had made no statement to the police.
01:05:47He had a defense of saying, I wasn't there.
01:05:50And instead, he got sent to prison for life.
01:05:54Never in my wildest dreams did I think that I would be speaking at a memorial service
01:06:03for Chris Lohrmeyer at the age of 17.
01:06:08The victim, Christopher Lohrmeyer,
01:06:11was deeply mourned by his family and his community.
01:06:15And no one found solace in Andy Medina's apology.
01:06:19Senseless, stupid, tragic.
01:06:24When you see the consequences
01:06:32of what these juveniles do
01:06:34and you deal with it,
01:06:36then you understand
01:06:37when you sentence somebody
01:06:40to prison
01:06:41with life without parole,
01:06:44then that family knows
01:06:45where this person will be for the rest of their life.
01:06:48They don't have to go to repeated parole hearings
01:06:51time after time
01:06:53explaining to a parole board
01:06:55and maybe a new parole board
01:06:57what it meant to their family
01:06:59to lose their father,
01:07:00to lose their child.
01:07:02The pain's always there,
01:07:03but you learn to live with it.
01:07:06But it never goes away.
01:07:09Ever.
01:07:09You just don't get over it.
01:07:13There's birthdays.
01:07:14There's holidays.
01:07:15Matthew's favorite holiday was Christmas.
01:07:19I missed out on graduations,
01:07:21weddings,
01:07:22babies,
01:07:23all that Trevor took from me.
01:07:28Oh, I'm very regretful
01:07:31of who I had become at that time.
01:07:34A lot of shame.
01:07:36A lot of shame
01:07:36that that's who I was out there.
01:07:38So,
01:07:39I don't have any good thoughts
01:07:41or good opinions
01:07:42about thinking back
01:07:43on who I was
01:07:44when I was 17.
01:07:47We knew Trevor
01:07:48was going to do some time in prison.
01:07:50Nobody ever said
01:07:51he was innocent.
01:07:56And 12 or 15 years
01:07:58seems
01:07:59much more appropriate
01:08:02than automatic life
01:08:04without parole.
01:08:05nobody even thinks
01:08:08of any mitigating circumstances.
01:08:11Nobody even looks
01:08:12at the fact
01:08:14that he was 17
01:08:15or that was an accident.
01:08:17The victim's family
01:08:19never believed
01:08:20it was an accident.
01:08:22An accident's an accident,
01:08:23but it wasn't.
01:08:24It was cold-blooded murder,
01:08:25and I don't feel different.
01:08:27I never will feel different.
01:08:28Trevor has been in prison
01:08:33for 10 years.
01:08:36I think we're just starting
01:08:37to get a picture
01:08:38of what an entire generation
01:08:40of young people experience
01:08:41when they're sentenced
01:08:42to life without parole.
01:08:43We know what the families
01:08:44of the victims
01:08:45of their crimes feel as well,
01:08:47and so we can try
01:08:49and weigh the loss
01:08:50of families,
01:08:51which is quite horrible,
01:08:53against the level
01:08:54of punishment
01:08:55and the severity
01:08:56of punishment
01:08:56of juveniles,
01:08:57and make a decision
01:08:58societally
01:08:59about whether
01:09:00we're achieving
01:09:01the goals of justice,
01:09:03retribution,
01:09:04or any other component
01:09:06of punishment
01:09:06relative to what
01:09:07this punishment
01:09:08really is like
01:09:09when it's experienced.
01:09:11You're put out
01:09:12in a box somewhere
01:09:13in the middle of nowhere,
01:09:14and that's where
01:09:15they're going to keep you
01:09:16until your life is over.
01:09:18Unfortunately,
01:09:19my mind daydreams
01:09:20about what could be,
01:09:21and then obviously
01:09:22I have to come to that point
01:09:23where, hey,
01:09:23you've got to quit
01:09:24daydreaming
01:09:25or imagining
01:09:25those kind of things
01:09:26because you are stuck
01:09:27in here
01:09:28and it's going
01:09:28to be forever.
01:09:30Sometimes the actual
01:09:31weight of it all
01:09:32really comes down
01:09:33on you,
01:09:34comes down on me,
01:09:36and, you know,
01:09:39get real upset
01:09:41about being stuck
01:09:42here forever.
01:09:44It doesn't get
01:09:45less painful
01:09:45with time.
01:09:47It gets worse,
01:09:49actually because
01:09:51when you're 17
01:09:52and I was 19,
01:09:55you can't explain
01:09:56to people that age
01:09:57what they're gambling with.
01:10:01You can't explain
01:10:01to them
01:10:02what the rest
01:10:04of their life
01:10:04could be
01:10:05and what it holds.
01:10:08And so,
01:10:09as I grow up
01:10:10and see everything
01:10:13that he's missing
01:10:14and everything
01:10:15he can't do
01:10:16and everything
01:10:19I have to do
01:10:19without him,
01:10:26it's just,
01:10:27it's just painful
01:10:30all the time.
01:10:35What Trevor
01:10:36did manage to do
01:10:37with the financial
01:10:37help of family
01:10:38and friends
01:10:39was to pursue
01:10:40his education.
01:10:43Have you changed,
01:10:45do you think?
01:10:45Oh, yeah, yeah.
01:10:47There's no continuity
01:10:47between the person
01:10:48I was and who I am today.
01:10:51I mean,
01:10:51I was a kid
01:10:51when I got locked up
01:10:52and I've grown up.
01:10:54I'm a Christian now.
01:10:56That's been
01:10:56very influential
01:10:57and as a combination
01:10:59of those two,
01:10:59probably,
01:11:00I was able to really
01:11:01pursue a higher education.
01:11:04That's done a lot
01:11:05to make me
01:11:06the person I am today.
01:11:08He is now
01:11:09studying for the ministry.
01:11:11You know,
01:11:12I don't care
01:11:12if he finds a cure
01:11:13for cancer in there.
01:11:14He should never
01:11:15get out of prison.
01:11:17He killed somebody.
01:11:18He took a life.
01:11:20It's so easy
01:11:20for these prisoners
01:11:21to say they find God
01:11:22in prison.
01:11:23Go to county jail,
01:11:24you'll find God
01:11:25there also.
01:11:26I'm not kidding.
01:11:27They all come into court
01:11:28carrying a Bible.
01:11:30No.
01:11:31He should have found it
01:11:32way before
01:11:32he pulled any trigger.
01:11:35Not forgiveness here?
01:11:36None.
01:11:37None.
01:11:37There never will be.
01:11:38There never will be.
01:11:39The emotions
01:11:43on the two sides
01:11:45could not be
01:11:46more passionate
01:11:47or more polarized.
01:11:50The audacity
01:11:51of sending a child
01:11:53to prison
01:11:54for the rest
01:11:55of his life
01:11:56is so stunning
01:11:58to me.
01:12:00The legislature
01:12:01has determined
01:12:02that adolescent
01:12:03brain development
01:12:04prohibits kids
01:12:07from being able
01:12:08to plan
01:12:09and focus
01:12:10and deliberate.
01:12:11And so,
01:12:12in the state of Colorado,
01:12:13it's illegal
01:12:14for a teenager
01:12:14to drive
01:12:15with another
01:12:16kid under 18
01:12:17in the car
01:12:18with them.
01:12:19At the same time,
01:12:20this same legislature
01:12:21has said
01:12:23these kids
01:12:24with the same
01:12:25adolescent brains
01:12:26can form
01:12:27the culpable
01:12:27mental state
01:12:28or the intent
01:12:29to commit murder
01:12:30and be locked up
01:12:32for the rest
01:12:32of their lives.
01:12:33And so,
01:12:34while Andy
01:12:34couldn't drive
01:12:35in a car
01:12:36with his two
01:12:37co-defendants,
01:12:37he can go to trial
01:12:39with his two
01:12:39co-defendants
01:12:40and face life
01:12:41in prison
01:12:41as an adult.
01:12:43I don't know
01:12:44if I fully understood,
01:12:46but I kind of
01:12:48understood,
01:12:48you know,
01:12:49because my emotions
01:12:50just took over
01:12:51when he said
01:12:52guilty, guilty,
01:12:53guilty, guilty.
01:12:55You know,
01:12:56life, you know.
01:12:57Andy understood
01:13:00it in such
01:13:01simple terms
01:13:02that it was
01:13:03more pathetic.
01:13:06He understood
01:13:07that he was
01:13:07never going to
01:13:08eat McDonald's
01:13:10again,
01:13:10and he understood
01:13:11that he was
01:13:13never going
01:13:14to be able
01:13:14to play
01:13:16with his brother
01:13:17again.
01:13:18He understood
01:13:19it in very basic
01:13:20these are the things
01:13:22as a kid
01:13:23that I'm never
01:13:23going to get
01:13:24to do again.
01:13:27Sandra is
01:13:28Andy Medina's
01:13:29mother.
01:13:31I was devastated.
01:13:33I was crushed.
01:13:34There is no words.
01:13:35I cried.
01:13:37I mean,
01:13:37there is just
01:13:38no words
01:13:38to describe
01:13:39how I felt.
01:13:40You know,
01:13:40it totally
01:13:41changed my life.
01:13:42I can only imagine,
01:13:43you know,
01:13:44what my son's
01:13:45went through.
01:13:45I mean,
01:13:45he's told me things,
01:13:46but it's awful
01:13:47for me,
01:13:48you know,
01:13:48and my other son.
01:13:49It's just awful,
01:13:50you know.
01:13:52Shauna and Darren
01:13:53had tried to prepare
01:13:54Sandra for what
01:13:55they feared was coming.
01:13:56There came a point
01:13:58that Darren and I
01:14:01realized that we
01:14:04weren't going to
01:14:05probably be able
01:14:06to win this case.
01:14:07At that point,
01:14:09I tried to work
01:14:10with his family
01:14:11on getting them
01:14:13ready for Andy
01:14:14to go to prison
01:14:14for the rest of his life.
01:14:17I told his mother,
01:14:19you'll be able
01:14:19to go to the prison
01:14:20and hold him
01:14:21and touch him
01:14:22and spend time
01:14:23with him.
01:14:23And I tried
01:14:26to reassure them
01:14:26that they would
01:14:27have that kind
01:14:28of family visits.
01:14:32This was more
01:14:33or less true
01:14:33for one year.
01:14:36And then Andy
01:14:37was transferred
01:14:38to Colorado State
01:14:39Penitentiary,
01:14:41the Supermax.
01:14:43Frontline was not
01:14:44given permission
01:14:44to interview Andy
01:14:45or any other inmates
01:14:47in the facility.
01:14:49Nor were we
01:14:50permitted to shoot
01:14:50inside or outside
01:14:52the prison.
01:14:53We'll start
01:14:53by saying that
01:14:54Colorado State
01:14:55Penitentiary is
01:14:56the maximum
01:14:56administrative
01:14:57segregation facility
01:14:58for the state
01:14:59of Colorado.
01:15:00This video
01:15:01was presented
01:15:02as evidence
01:15:02in a death penalty
01:15:03case.
01:15:04We manage
01:15:05the 750,
01:15:08756 to be exact,
01:15:12inmates that are
01:15:13deemed to be
01:15:14incorrigible,
01:15:16dangerous,
01:15:16violent,
01:15:17predatory.
01:15:18It shocks me
01:15:18because I can't
01:15:19imagine this child
01:15:21having done
01:15:21anything that
01:15:22would put him
01:15:23in that position.
01:15:24And what we've
01:15:25been told about
01:15:26why he's in CSP
01:15:27just never really
01:15:28fit for me.
01:15:29It just didn't fit
01:15:30with the Andy I know.
01:15:34Andy has been
01:15:35in the Supermax
01:15:36for almost five years.
01:15:38The only interview
01:15:40with him was
01:15:41conducted in 2004
01:15:42by Human Rights Watch.
01:15:45He tried to explain
01:15:46that he'd been accused
01:15:47of being in a
01:15:48security threat group.
01:15:50In other words,
01:15:51a gang.
01:15:52So we've got
01:15:53confidential information
01:15:54that you're involved
01:15:56with this security group
01:15:57and you're supposed
01:15:58to do this and that
01:16:00and all that.
01:16:01And I didn't understand,
01:16:02you know,
01:16:02it just came out
01:16:02of the blue.
01:16:03Why didn't they,
01:16:04why didn't they charge
01:16:05me right away,
01:16:06you know what I mean?
01:16:06It's just basically
01:16:07he say, she say,
01:16:09and I don't even know
01:16:11what they're talking
01:16:11about, you know?
01:16:12So I was really
01:16:14bummed out about that,
01:16:16really.
01:16:17They claim that
01:16:18he was in a gang
01:16:19and that he was somehow
01:16:20one of the leaders
01:16:21of a group that
01:16:22caused a riot
01:16:23or incited a riot
01:16:24at one of the facilities.
01:16:26From what I know of Andy,
01:16:27from representing him,
01:16:28it's ludicrous.
01:16:29I can't imagine
01:16:29that that's possibly true.
01:16:31You have to remember,
01:16:32when he got arrested,
01:16:33he was a child.
01:16:34I mean, you can't be
01:16:35a leader of a gang
01:16:36when you're 15 years old.
01:16:37That's just not
01:16:38how it works.
01:16:39And he has no tattoos.
01:16:42He has no symbols
01:16:43of gangs.
01:16:44When Andy first
01:16:46questioned the decision
01:16:47to transfer him
01:16:48to the supermax,
01:16:49he asked for a lawyer.
01:16:52He was told
01:16:53that the hearing
01:16:53does not permit
01:16:54participation
01:16:55of private counsel
01:16:56and that the testimony
01:16:58is confidential
01:16:59and shall not be revealed
01:17:02to the offender
01:17:02at any time.
01:17:04They can say
01:17:05whatever they want,
01:17:07but it's just saying it.
01:17:09There's just nothing
01:17:10to back it up.
01:17:12They have no standards.
01:17:14There's no date
01:17:14of getting out.
01:17:15Inmates are in charge
01:17:16of their own destiny here
01:17:17because it's behavior-driven
01:17:19and program-compliant.
01:17:21This is a place
01:17:23where inmates,
01:17:24regardless of age,
01:17:25are locked up
01:17:26not for weeks or months,
01:17:28but mostly years.
01:17:31Eric Jensen spent
01:17:32two and a half years here.
01:17:35Jacob Eind,
01:17:36eight years.
01:17:38They keep the inmates
01:17:39in solitary confinement
01:17:4123 hours a day,
01:17:42365 days a year,
01:17:43as I understand it.
01:17:44It's intended to not
01:17:45be a comfortable place
01:17:46to do time.
01:17:47This is where we house
01:17:49the most incorrigible
01:17:50inmates in the system.
01:17:51It's a horrible environment.
01:17:52And you take a child
01:17:53and put them
01:17:54in that environment,
01:17:55I can't even imagine
01:17:56what it does to them.
01:17:58CSP has total
01:17:59non-contact visits.
01:18:01The regular booths
01:18:02utilize just a baffle system.
01:18:04Sandra visits her son
01:18:06every week.
01:18:07I can't hug him
01:18:08or give him a kiss
01:18:09on the cheek
01:18:09or buy him a pop
01:18:11or a snack or anything.
01:18:12No.
01:18:12You know,
01:18:13he's alive,
01:18:15but it feels like
01:18:15he's not.
01:18:16I don't know how to,
01:18:17you know.
01:18:18It's awful.
01:18:19You know,
01:18:20I cry when I go see him.
01:18:21You know,
01:18:21when I go out,
01:18:22I cry.
01:18:22It's awful.
01:18:24It really tears me up.
01:18:26I just have to,
01:18:28like, just swallow my,
01:18:31I don't know,
01:18:32I use the term
01:18:33swallow my tears.
01:18:36He's probably lost
01:18:3720 pounds.
01:18:39He has twitches
01:18:40in his body.
01:18:41His whole body twitches.
01:18:42His right arm twitches up
01:18:44and his elbow comes up.
01:18:47It's,
01:18:48you want to cry
01:18:49when you talk to him.
01:18:53That is the worst place
01:18:54in the prison system
01:18:55to be
01:18:56because they don't care.
01:18:57They don't care
01:18:57about your rights,
01:18:58about anything.
01:19:00He will die in there.
01:19:01You know,
01:19:01it's wrong.
01:19:02It's inhumane.
01:19:02According to the Colorado
01:19:05Department of Corrections,
01:19:07Andy has not made
01:19:08enough progress
01:19:09in the last
01:19:10four and a half years
01:19:11to be released
01:19:11into the general
01:19:12prison population.
01:19:16Legislatures,
01:19:17which pass laws
01:19:18that give life
01:19:19without parole
01:19:20to teenagers,
01:19:21typically don't care
01:19:22about the rehabilitation
01:19:23of teenagers,
01:19:25don't care about
01:19:27giving teenagers
01:19:28any hope.
01:19:28All they care about
01:19:29is locking up,
01:19:30locking them up
01:19:31and throwing away the key
01:19:32and those kids
01:19:34be damned.
01:19:36We get vengeance,
01:19:37extreme vengeance,
01:19:38for kids who've
01:19:39committed serious crimes.
01:19:41Vengeance is not justice.
01:19:42Vengeance is vengeance.
01:19:44And yet,
01:19:45the United States
01:19:46is party
01:19:47to the International Covenant
01:19:48on Civil and Political Rights,
01:19:51which urges rehabilitation
01:19:52of young offenders
01:19:53and prohibits
01:19:55sentencing them
01:19:55to life without parole.
01:19:57In 1992,
01:19:59the U.S. ratified it
01:20:00with a few reservations.
01:20:03At the time
01:20:04of the ratification,
01:20:06the U.S. had about
01:20:07400 inmates
01:20:08sentenced as juveniles
01:20:10to life without parole.
01:20:12Today,
01:20:13there are more than 2,000.
01:20:15According to Human Rights Watch,
01:20:17in the rest of the world,
01:20:19there are only 12.
01:20:24There was a hearing
01:20:25in July of 2006
01:20:27in Geneva, Switzerland,
01:20:28where the U.S. was called
01:20:30to testify
01:20:30before the Human Rights Committee,
01:20:33which is the body
01:20:33that enforces
01:20:34the International Covenant
01:20:36on Civil and Political Rights.
01:20:38And there,
01:20:38the U.S. had to explain
01:20:40its behavior.
01:20:41How is it
01:20:42that it can be party
01:20:43to this treaty
01:20:44and at the same time
01:20:45have 2,225 children
01:20:48serving life
01:20:49without the possibility
01:20:49of parole?
01:20:51What the U.S. delegation
01:20:52told the Human Rights Committee
01:20:54is that the child offenders
01:20:56that received this sentence
01:20:57were the worst of the worst.
01:21:00And the reason
01:21:01the United States
01:21:02claims that these children
01:21:05are the worst of the worst
01:21:06is because it's trying
01:21:08to fit the practice
01:21:09to a reservation
01:21:11it placed on the treaty,
01:21:13which was that
01:21:13it would only treat children
01:21:15as adults
01:21:15in exceptional circumstances,
01:21:18that this sentence
01:21:19was reserved only
01:21:20for the most hardened
01:21:22of criminals.
01:21:24Yet most of them
01:21:26are not hardened criminals.
01:21:28We were, you know,
01:21:28normal teenagers
01:21:29who got put
01:21:31in a seriously
01:21:32bad situation
01:21:33and we handled
01:21:36about as bad
01:21:37as you can handle it.
01:21:47I just couldn't understand
01:21:49why nobody was looking
01:21:50at the fact
01:21:51it was an accident.
01:21:54Why doesn't that matter?
01:21:55It should matter
01:21:56whether or not
01:21:58he intended
01:21:58to kill someone.
01:22:00It should matter
01:22:01that he was only 17.
01:22:06I threw away my life.
01:22:10I had no concept
01:22:11whatsoever.
01:22:12None.
01:22:16There's no reason
01:22:17to live.
01:22:19That's the hardest thing.
01:22:21I mean,
01:22:21you have to sit there
01:22:22and look forward
01:22:23to something.
01:22:25In 10 years
01:22:26I'll either be
01:22:26on the streets
01:22:27or dead
01:22:27because I'm not
01:22:30going to keep
01:22:30doing this.
01:22:32It's got to be
01:22:33one or the other.
01:22:36He's going to get out.
01:22:41We will not
01:22:42accept anything else.
01:22:44I'm going on 10 now
01:22:45as it is.
01:22:49I'm not going to
01:22:50do another 10.
01:22:51It's not possible.
01:22:55It's not possible.
01:23:21Next time on Frontline
01:23:49Frontline
01:23:51Everybody's phone
01:23:52records,
01:23:52everybody's email.
01:23:53In the war on terror
01:23:54Everybody's a suspect.
01:23:56What's being threatened
01:23:57here at home?
01:23:59It's the sort of thing
01:23:59that very oppressive
01:24:01governments would do
01:24:02without a warrant.
01:24:03Since 9-11
01:24:04has the government
01:24:05surveillance program
01:24:06gone too far?
01:24:08I can give you
01:24:08more security
01:24:09but I've got to
01:24:09take away some rights.
01:24:11Next time
01:24:11Frontline investigates
01:24:13spying on the
01:24:14home front.
01:24:19To order Frontline's
01:24:23When Kids Get Life
01:24:24on DVD
01:24:25call PBS Home Video
01:24:27at 1-800-PLAY-PBS.
01:24:30The End
01:24:47is a production
01:24:48of a podcast.
01:24:49You

Recommended

57:56