- 6/10/2025
During a House Rules Committee hearing, Rep. Jim McGovern (D-MA) questioned Rep. Robert Aderholt (R-AL) and Rep. Rosa DeLauro (D-CT) about HR 4, the Rescissions Act of 2025.
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00:00I now recognize Mr. McGovern.
00:03Thank you very much.
00:05Ranking Member DeLaura, I'm going to play devil's advocate just for a second.
00:09Make believe I'm a Republican.
00:11So I'm going to ask this question.
00:12How can we afford to send money overseas when we have needs at home?
00:18Make sure your mic's on.
00:19I appreciate that.
00:22If you're just to indulge me for a moment, I think I've got to dispel this myth that people are under.
00:28Chief Justice Rehnquist, with respect to the suggestion that the president has a constitutional power to decline to spend appropriated funds,
00:37we must conclude that existence of such broad power is supported neither by reason nor precedent.
00:44Disabuse yourself of this notion that this president or any president, Republican, Democrat, does not have the power to impound.
00:52I will get to your question now.
00:54Listen, we spend less than one half of one percent of gross national projects on overseas assistance.
01:00Current spending is 50 percent less in real terms spent on diplomacy and development than during the Cold War.
01:08One out of every four countries have populations that face severe hunger, exacerbating conflict, instability in hot spots around the world,
01:15and directly impacts the U.S. national and economic security.
01:19What is the PRC doing?
01:21My colleagues are in fear of the People's Republic of China.
01:25It has increased development spending and financing by over 430 percent over the last 10 years.
01:33And that's of available data.
01:35China is surpassing the U.S. as the largest trading partner in many countries.
01:40In Latin America and Africa, China has more embassies and consulates, diplomats, and foreign assistants than anyone else in the world.
01:49They challenge us, democracy and capitalism around the world, going virtually unchallenged.
01:57Let me just also say, I want to just say, they talk about waste, fraud, and abuse in these programs.
02:04Let's take a look at what we're talking about in the programs, because I think it's really critically important to note what we are really talking about here.
02:15Maternal and child health.
02:18It doesn't sound like a woke program to me.
02:21Is that a woke program?
02:22Maternal and child health?
02:24Hell.
02:25Okay.
02:26You know, let's get rid of it all.
02:28Let's not worry about maternal morbidity or mortality.
02:31Development activities, water, and sanitation.
02:35Let's talk about PEPFAR.
02:3826 million people.
02:4126 million people on life-saving antiretroviral treatment.
02:482.3 million adolescent girls and young women reached with comprehensive HIV prevention services.
02:556.6 million orphans, vulnerable children, and their caregivers received critical care and support.
03:032.5 million people newly enrolled on PrEP to prevent HIV infection.
03:0883.8 million people provided with HIV testing services.
03:13And 342,000 health workers directly supported by PEPFAR.
03:20We've got humanitarian needs.
03:22We've got education needs.
03:24You know, I'm not sure people even know what they're making reference to in terms of woke.
03:29These are the programs that are part of what is being rescinded illegally.
03:34It was illegally stolen, and now we're coming around to rubber stamp to say it's okay.
03:42Mr. Adderholt, speaking of PEPFAR, this rescidious package cuts $400 million from PEPFAR,
03:50which is an overwhelmingly bipartisan program created by President George W. Bush to combat the global HIV crisis.
03:57This program alone has saved, as Mr. Lourke pointed out, has saved 26 million people from dying of HIV
04:04and enabled more than 8 million babies to be born HIV-free.
04:10There are now tens of millions of people on life-saving treatment,
04:13with PEPFAR accounting for over 90 percent of preventative, you know, treatments around the world.
04:19Mr. Adderholt, your bill pulls the rug from under this program and kneecaps 20 years of bipartisan progress.
04:28Don't you agree, Mr. Adderholt, that eliminating HIV as a public health threat is an important goal that the U.S. should continue to pursue?
04:37Well, as you know, this proposal that's been presented here to Congress, and let me just say,
04:43this is the President's proposal, and Congress has the ability to vote it up or down.
04:48But there is a lot of this money.
04:52Excuse me, we're not going to have a separate vote on this.
04:54We're going to have to vote for this rescissions package.
04:56Oh, right.
04:57But like I said, Congress will be allowed to vote on it.
05:00This is something the President is just proposing.
05:04But the rescissions package proposes to rescind $500 million from this account,
05:10but that's roughly only 12 percent of the funding.
05:13Well, let me just ask you, I just ask you, I mean, you think that, the question was,
05:17do you think that eliminating HIV as a public health threat is an important goal that the U.S. should continue to pursue?
05:23It is, but there are a lot of things that's included in these programs that go beyond that.
05:28The equity programs, the LGBTQI+,
05:32We're talking about PEPFAR, right?
05:34Well, a lot of these are being misspent.
05:37PEPFAR is being misspent.
05:39Let me say, some Republicans have rightly expressed concern over these cuts,
05:43but I wonder if those who express concern are going to do anything about it.
05:46For example, one Republican congressman from Florida said that PEPFAR, quote,
05:50saved a generation, end quote.
05:52And in 2023, President Bush wrote an op-ed that there is no program more pro-life
05:57than the one that has saved more than 25 million lives.
06:01Do you agree with President Bush that a program that has saved now more than 26 million lives is pro-life?
06:07Again, this is not completely cutting out this program.
06:11This is, this is, you're, you're, you're decimating this program.
06:15400, a $400 million cut is huge.
06:19You know, I, I, I don't, I just, I don't, the, the idea that,
06:25it's kind of like the discussion we had today on the floor about a $300 million cut from SNAP.
06:30Don't worry, it's not, nothing's going to be impacted.
06:33I don't know of a single person associated with combating HIV AIDS around the world who doesn't say,
06:40including some of the founders of PEPFAR, who work with, with the Bush administration,
06:44that this will have a devastating impact.
06:46And what do you, are you basically saying we can all work around this?
06:49And there'll be no, there'll be no impact?
06:52I think my understanding of what the president was requesting to restore the integrity of these programs
06:57and trying to get out the waste, fraud, and abuse that we've seen in it and.
07:02Well, I, I, I haven't, I haven't seen the administration's statement of the waste, fraud, and abuse in PEPFAR.
07:08Look, since taking office, President Trump has illegally, as Mr. Laurel pointed out,
07:13attempted to dismantle USAID, which has threatened the lives of millions of people who rely on this funding
07:18to present, to prevent or treat diseases, afford food, and get access to clean water.
07:24Do you know how many deaths have been caused by Trump's decision to discontinue funding for USAID?
07:29I, I'm assuming you're telling me.
07:33Yeah, well, according to Boston University's School of Public Health, which is tracking the impact of these cuts,
07:39over 106,000 adults and over 200,000 children have already died due to the illegal termination of these programs.
07:47Do you know, do you know how many have died of HIV due to the disruption of PEPFAR already?
07:56More than 50,000 adults and 6,000 infants.
08:01Do you know, do you know how many children have died of malaria?
08:06More than 29,000.
08:09Do you know how many people have died of tuberculosis as a result of these cuts?
08:14More than 25,000.
08:15I mean, global health programs, I hate to, you know, burst the bubble of my Republican friends over here.
08:24I mean, global health programs are not, are not some woke initiative.
08:27These are a good investment.
08:29I mean, this rescission would eliminate public health, security, global cooperation,
08:34and America's reputation as a principled and effective leader.
08:38Ranking Member DeLauro, isn't it true that poorly controlled outbreaks
08:42can have severe economic and social consequences?
08:46Like, what happens if the U.S. no longer has staff embedded within other countries
08:51and we're not notified that a disease needs to be addressed?
08:54Won't that increase the likelihood of that disease coming to our districts, the United States?
08:58That's precisely right.
09:01These illnesses don't know borders.
09:04If we are not on the ground doing what we need to do in global health,
09:08then we are at risk.
09:10We are gravely at risk.
09:12Whether it is a pandemic, whether it is Zika, whether it is Ebola or anything else,
09:20if we do not have people on the ground, if we do not have the CDC people who are there
09:26or others who are there who can really translate for us what is happening
09:30and deal with prevention, these diseases cross borders.
09:34They don't say, okay, stop, I'm not going to the United States today.
09:38You know, it is so foolish what is being done to not only isolate the United States
09:45but put us health-wise in great jeopardy.
09:50And there's no rationale for it, to take away these opportunities for us to safeguard the health security of the United States.
10:01If you can't think about others or whether they're going to live or die,
10:04think about the health security of the people in the United States.
10:07Yeah, and let's be forthcoming here.
10:10The administration has already withheld money from a lot of these programs.
10:14That's why people are already dying as a result of these cutbacks.
10:18Let me justâ
10:19Food and humanitarian assistance, rampant.
10:22Let me just do a little math here.
10:25Mr. Adderhall, under the Republican tax scam, CBO says the deficit will increase by $3 trillion.
10:30How much bigger is $3 trillion in tax cuts than the $9.4 billion that you're rescinding in this bill?
10:40It's 320 times bigger.
10:43To kind of put thisâwhat we're doing here in perspective.
10:46And under the Republican tax scam, CBO says the top 5 percent of earners will get a $1.6 trillion tax cut.
10:53How much bigger is the $1.6 trillion in tax cuts for the wealthy than the $9.4 billion that Republicans are rescinding in this bill?
11:03170 times bigger.
11:09Look, it is clear that this rescissions package is a moral failure masquerading as fiscal responsibility.
11:16These so-called savings are a drop in the bucket compared to their giveaways for the wealthiest among us.
11:23It's a drop in the ocean.
11:24And at what human cost?
11:27These aren'tâwhat aboutâPEPFAR is not a woke program.
11:31I mean, it is one of the most successful programs that has ever been created to combat, you know, a public health emergency.
11:40And before the rescissions in this bill, the FY25 funds were already $10 billion below the total humanitarian resources in the prior year.
11:51And this rescission would pull back $1.3 billion in funding to the most vulnerable people in the world, malnourished children, malnourished refugees, people fleeing violence.
12:06You know, the historic level of humanitarian need flies in the face of this rescission.
12:13By mid-2024, nearly 123 million people had been forcibly displaced by conflict and violence, marking the 12th consecutive annual increase.
12:23And the United States is helping to support displaced populations from Afghanistan, Burma, Ethiopia, Iraq, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan, Syria, Ukraine, Venezuela, Yemen, and elsewhere.
12:37Ranking Member DeLauro, how can the administration make the argument that these funds are not needed?
12:43And in particular, how would the rescission package affect Ukraine?
12:47Well, first of all, let me just say the one thing you mentioned.
12:51Support through programs like Gavi that have vaccinated more than 1.1 billion children
12:58and prevented more than 18.8 million future deaths.
13:05We talked about malnutrition.
13:07Costs the world $3.5 trillion in lost productivity and health care costs each year.
13:14According to UNICEF, at least 14 million children are now expected to face disruptions to nutrition from the cuts already made by donors.
13:25It is, it is, it is, tell me, Ukraine is, to walk away from the assistance for Ukraine.
13:42Ukraine is that flagship that says we will hold democracy sacrosanct in our world.
13:54Ukraine, and to fritter around, and whether it is the kind of social service help that we provided, security assistance that we provided,
14:05if we are not providing that, then we should stand back and say, go ahead, Mr. Putin, take it all, take it on.
14:12I mean, we're supposed to be a leader in the world, and being a leader in the world has to mean more than just sending bombs to every country in the world.
14:21What is it that they use? Everything is brutality.
14:24Let me just close with just one thing.
14:27So today on the House floor, you know, Ms. Houchen and I got into a debate over the reconciliation package,
14:35and she went through a list of all the reasons why the big, ugly bill was such a good thing for us to pass,
14:44and bragging about all the things that were in the bill, including the fact that the bill removes the tax on gun silencers
14:54that has been on the book for a century.
14:56And according to the Independent Joint Committee on Taxation, ending the tax on gun silencers costs $1.5 billion.
15:08$1.5 billion.
15:10That's more than the $1.1 billion Republicans are, quote, saving by eliminating all funding for public TV and radio.
15:18I mean, at the end of the day, this is a discussion about values and morals, you know, and what is important.
15:28Mr. Adderhall, I don't know, how can you justify eliminating funding for public TV and radio,
15:36which millions of Americans rely on, particularly in rural areas where people have no other source of local news,
15:44when Republicans are taking these savings to give a big tax cut for gun silencers?
15:54I mean, how, you know, or how do you justify any of these cuts to programs that feed kids or combat disease?
16:03I mean, if we're trying to save money, I mean, how, you know, removing the tax on gun silencers,
16:10like, why is that more important than funding some of the programs that we're here talking about?
16:18I think the bottom line is, you know, I think we've got to remember, America has invested,
16:23I think we agree, has saved a lot of lives in the past.
16:26Yes, yes.
16:27But where we would disagree, by this rescission package, it's not going to stop that.
16:32We will continue to do that, and I think anybody's concerned about some of this stuff with the foreign policy, you should support this.
16:40Ms. Adderhall, it already, funding for many of these programs has already stopped.
16:50So we are seeing the effects of this right now.
16:52And again, I just find it, you know, just stunning that no one, you guys don't have a problem with removing the tax on gun silencers,
17:02but somehow you want to, which is $1.5 billion, but somehow you want to cut, you know, money for public TV and radio or PEPFAR or other humanitarian programs.
17:15I don't know, I mean, did the assassin's lobby ask for the repeal on, you know, on the tax on gun silencers?
17:23I don't, I don't, I mean, like, I just, I just find this so fundamentally wrong that, you know, this, this Congress passed a bill to remove the tax on gun silencers
17:38and says that we have to cut money to combat HIV-AIDS because we got to, we got to find savings.
17:45I think that's a moral feeling, and I'll, we'll yield to Mr. Lauro for the last word.
17:49I would just say that you, you know, you asked about Ukraine, but it is the elimination of all of the civilian funding intended to support Ukraine
17:59and other partners in Eastern Europe and Central Asia who are all facing aggression from Putin.
18:08You can't say at the one side, we've got to, you know, stop Russia, stop Putin, and then open the door for Putin to come in and to take over in, in, in these places.
18:20I, I think, just as a final, final, final point here, um, I, I, I have to go back, this debate, we shouldn't be having this debate
18:31because there is no legal basis for stealing congressionally directed taxpayer funds.
18:46That has been established in law and in our Constitution, and now you're trying to find a way to rubber stamp Elon Musk's destruction, if you will,
18:59the road to destruction, what they have done, and you cherry-pick out of the Empowerment Control Act the provision which says
19:08it's where you should have started of looking at how we might deal with, uh, with, with, with, with looking at, at rescinding money with the 45-day limit,
19:21and you want to cherry-pick that and then say, okay, that's what we're doing and we're going to codify these.
19:27It is really unconscionable as to the havoc that is being wrought on the, both in terms of impoundment and dismantling the federal government,
19:36and that's what President Trump, Russ Vogt, and Elon Musk are all about, and my Republican colleagues will rubber stamp that effort.
19:45And Mr. Eddall, I think, did you want to respond to it?
19:48Well, let me just say, you know, we, we've talked a lot about the PEPFOR, and I know that's been a, an issue that,
19:52but with this rescissions of, uh, I think it's around, uh, a little more than $8 billion, um, that's been rescinded,
20:00total funding for, uh, diplomacy and foreign assistance is still $51 billion.
20:06So, it's, you know, I, I don't think we should get the picture that there's going to be, like, a hundred dollars that we're going to be using.
20:13Because of, because of what has already been withheld, I went through a list of the number of deaths that have already occurred.
20:19All right? And that is just going to get worse with this additional cut.
20:23And I'll just close with this. I have always believed America's greatness is in our humanity.
20:28And I think what we see here is that my Republican friends somehow think our greatness is in our inhumanity.
20:36I can't believe we're doing this. I cannot believe we're doing this.
20:39And by the way, this is the tip of the iceberg.
20:41Wait till we get to some of the other programs that are being unilaterally halted right now,
20:46Governor Dole, um, school feeding program.
20:49Feeding poor kids, um, in school settings.
20:52Um, one of the most successful anti-hunger programs we have.
20:55But in any event, I don't want to belabor this point.
20:58Well, Mr. Vogt said that this is the first of a rescission package.
21:01Yeah, no, I, I know.
21:02And this is a test.
21:03Right.
21:04And then they're going to come back with more rescissions.
21:05Yeah, I, I, yeah.
21:06Which is in violation, and people need to understand this.
21:09I, I, I thank you both. I yield back.
21:11Yeah, thank you both.
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