What Is The Financial State Of Broadway Ahead Of The Tony Awards_ Forbes Reporter Reveals

Forbes Breaking News

Forbes reporter Matt Craig joined "Forbes Newsroom" to discuss the Tony Awards and the state of Broadway.

Transcript

00:00Hi, everybody. I'm Brittany Lewis, a breaking news reporter here at Forbes. Joining me now

00:06is my Forbes colleague, reporter Matt Craig. Matt, thanks so much for joining me.

00:11Thanks for having me, Brittany. It's been too long since we've done one of these.

00:14It has been too long, but we do have an exciting conversation today because the Tonys are this

00:19weekend and someone who has the potential to have a good night, no pun intended, is George Clooney,

00:25the star of the show Good Night and Good Luck. And that's not the only accomplishment the show

00:29has really seen. You're reporting on some of the show's successes, particularly in the money

00:34department. So talk to us about that. Yeah, I think, yeah, you say it could be a good night.

00:40To him, I say good luck on the Tonys. I don't know how many awards they're going to win. They did get

00:44five nominations, but on a per week basis, the show is going to go down as the highest grossing

00:50show or non-musical, I should say, play on Broadway, in the history of Broadway. Again,

00:57on a per week basis, because it's only running for 13 weeks. But it's grossed more than $3 million

01:02per week on average. And it's the first non-musical to ever hit that $4 million threshold

01:08per week. And it's done that three times. And in this last week, it probably will again. So four

01:14times in this run, which is really unprecedented. I mean, for most plays, $1 million in a week,

01:20that's considered a success. If you hit the $2 million per week threshold, that's a huge hit. And again,

01:26they're averaging over three and hitting $4 million a week. So this is a huge hit on Broadway. It's the

01:33toast of the town. And obviously, I'm getting Tonys is a nice cherry on top. The one thing I think it's

01:39important to remember, and I want to say this upfront, is that it's not like a movie where

01:43when a movie is a huge hit, it's because it sells more tickets and it's really popular. I mean,

01:48this show is selling out the Winter Garden Theater, but it's not like shows haven't sold out that

01:53theater or other theaters before. The only way it's gotten to these incredible gross numbers

01:57is ticket prices like we've never seen before. And the clear trend here is that when you have a

02:05giant Hollywood star in your cast, you can charge way more money than we thought in the past

02:09theaters and still have sold out theaters. I guess the one example I'll say is that the Winter Garden

02:15Theater was also where the Music Man played when it had Hugh Jackman. And that show, which was also

02:22a musical, was only grossing in like the mid $2 million, low $3 million range. And now George Clooney

02:28is grossing more than $4 million. Does that mean it's a more popular show? Probably not, but ticket prices

02:33are higher than we've ever seen.

02:34And I actually saw the Music Man when it was at the Winter Garden Theater with Hugh Jackman

02:39and Sutton Foster. And that's a big draw when Hugh Jackman is headlining as the lead role. I mean,

02:45people want to go for that A-list celebrity. And we've seen a theme this year where there are

02:50A-list celebrities in Broadway shows this season. So talk to us a little bit about who they are.

02:57Right. So to your point, I mean, it's always kind of been a thing on Broadway to have a couple of shows

03:03with huge name actors. I guess what's different now is that these are the biggest shows on Broadway.

03:10So you have George Clooney in Good Night and Good Luck. You have Denzel Washington, Jake John

03:14and Othello. And then Kieran Culkin, Bob Odenkirk and Bill Burr and Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross. And those

03:20are three of the four highest grossing shows on a per week average of 2025. So I guess the difference was

03:27that, you know, when you had last year, Robert Downey Jr., Steve Carell, Jeremy Strong, Rachel McAdams,

03:33Eddie Redmayne. There certainly is more of them. And that's a trend that we should definitely talk about

03:38why that is. But the difference is with Clooney and Othello and Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross is, again,

03:46high ticket prices still being sellout shows and those being some of the highest grossing shows

03:51on Broadway. So and I guess I'll throw in Paul Mescal and Streetcar Named Desire, which wrapped

03:58up its run in April. So a little bit earlier this year. But really, there's a ton of options for

04:04people on Broadway if they want to see those movie stars acting on stage. I want to talk about really

04:10how well these shows are performing at the box office because the 2024-2025 season on Broadway was

04:17reportedly the highest grossing season in history. Is it because of those high ticket prices? Is it

04:22because of the demand of those actors? I mean, what does that look like?

04:27So Broadway as a whole is always going to have those tentpole shows. Well, Hamilton is kind of a more

04:33recent one, but Wicked and, of course, Book of Mormon. And, you know, these shows that are going to

04:38be the highest grossing shows every year, they continue to do well. They're a magnet not only for

04:42tourists, but, you know, New Yorkers and theater regulars alike. So those shows are always going

04:48to do well. The difference was basically testing out. If you're an investor in all of these shows,

04:54you're kind of pushing the envelope. How far can I go? How far can I go when it comes to these ticket

04:58prices? And whether it's just this season, you've tried it in the past and it hasn't worked, or this

05:03is the first time they tried it. And clearly there's more of an appetite than we thought.

05:07The price of going to one of these shows, and we can talk about the specifics here,

05:11on the upper end. So we're talking the premium seats, you know, up front or in the middle, you

05:17know, all those great seats are now between regularly between $600 and $900 first run. If you

05:24want to buy resale tickets to George Clooney and good night, good luck. I'll say again, good luck,

05:29you know, multiple thousands of dollars probably, but six to 900 bucks for those premium seats. And

05:35the get in prices is now between like $350 to $500. And that's still playing to sold out theaters

05:43every single show. So that that's, that's really where we're seeing the difference with these three

05:48shows is that they're continuing to be a draw, no matter how high those ticket prices go. And

05:54clearly, if that is continues to be a trend, then these small businesses that is every production

06:00have kind of like a duty to their investors and their producers to continue to raise those prices.

06:04So unfortunately, if you're a theater goer, I would say that the, the projection looking forward

06:10is that we're probably gonna have higher ticket prices across the board.

06:12I mean, these numbers are just incredible $900 for one ticket to see one show at some points.

06:19So you're saying George Clooney show is bringing in 3 million a week on average, hitting 4 million

06:24a week twice. Based on those numbers, clearly there's an appetite for this type of theater.

06:30And a lot of these shows, as you reported, have a limited run. They have, they're running

06:33for a handful of weeks, 10 weeks, 12 weeks, things like that. Why do these short run productions

06:38with Hollywood A-listers? Why are they so popular now?

06:42Yes, that's a great question. And you're very right to differentiate between ongoing

06:48shows, long running shows, and then the star driven short run show. So again, because you're

06:55talking about someone like George Clooney, Denzel Washington, Jake Dillon Hall have very, very

06:59busy schedules, and also probably don't want to be locked in for upwards of a year. Most of

07:04these star driven short run plays are only lasting between like 10 and 15, 16 weeks. And so because

07:12of that, if you're a production, you have to try to make all your money back and reach

07:16recoupment of the investment within 10 to 15 weeks. That's very different than if you were

07:20to stage a new musical. The kind of rules on there is that it needs to run for a year.

07:25So even Hugh Jackman in The Music Man, that is a star driven show. However, he had to stay

07:30on for a year in order to recoup. And clearly that show made profits. I guess another example

07:37I'm thinking of is Daniel Ratcliffe. Last year, Merrily We Roll Along, and of course,

07:41Jonathan Groff. But that show had to run for a full year with that cast in order to recoup. So

07:47the main reason why these plays are becoming more popular is because you're able to recoup

07:53your investment on a more consistent basis and on a quicker timeframe. So it's a little bit of a

08:00low risk, low reward proposition for investors where you're not going to make massive multiples.

08:07I mean, if you invested early in Hamilton, you're making potentially tens or hundreds of millions of

08:12dollars because that shows in several cities around the world and will run forever. These

08:18star driven shows are only going to run for 10 or 15 weeks and then they're done. Once the star is

08:22no longer in it, the reason for people to come out and pay high ticket prices isn't there. So you're

08:27obviously looking at more like a 10 to 20 to 30% return on your investment in success and in the

08:34greatest examples of success for these shows. But your risk of losing your money is near zero or very,

08:40very low. And so in, you know, of course, fears of recession and in general, most Broadway shows do

08:47not recoup their money. In fact, less than a quarter on average of all Broadway shows actually

08:54return all the money back to their investors. So in that landscape, of course, if you can get an easy

09:00win, you know, even if it's only 10, 20, 30% returns, you're going to do that every single time that you

09:05can. I mean, if I'm an investor, I don't really like that statistic that if I invest in a musical,

09:11the likelihood of getting my money back is not looking too great. So talk to us a little bit

09:16about that. I mean, why exactly is that? What are the differences? Because I just saw a musical last

09:21night. I saw Moulin Rouge and there's pomp, there's circumstances, there's glitter, there's an actress

09:26coming out of the ceiling, there's pyrotechnics. Is it way more? Is there a lot more financial

09:33responsibility to run a musical than it is to run a play where the set doesn't take center stage,

09:39really, when it's more acting driven, I guess? Yeah, well, that exact reason that you're talking

09:45about and why you like Moulin Rouge is why musicals are the biggest generators of profit on Broadway. It's

09:53because if someone's going to spend a ton of money and come out, you know, they want to have

09:58the pomp and circumstance, as you say, they want to have the glitter and the lights and, you know,

10:02the chandelier falling from the ceiling and family of the opera, right? But because of that,

10:06musicals are significantly more expensive, both to get to opening night and then to run on a weekly

10:13basis. So again, just to put specific numbers on that, if you wanted to launch a new musical from

10:18scratch, it would take between 20 and 25 million dollars. That's according to Forbes estimates,

10:23talking to people in the industry, 20 to 25 million dollars just to get you to opening night.

10:27And then on a weekly operating cost basis, we're talking 800,000 to a million dollars a week to run.

10:34So if you wanted to start paying back that investment, you would have to gross over a million

10:40dollars a week. So it would have to be a success from the get go that you would start to incrementally

10:45pay out those investors. And it might take a full year again to recoup in the case of the success.

10:52And, you know, you're talking about Moulin Rouge, a show that's run for a long time,

10:55you know, or again, we mentioned the Hamiltons and the wickets of the world. Those shows are like

11:01a lottery ticket. This is why musicals exist. This is why people still invest in them, even though

11:06there is such a low chance of success is because when they hit, they hit crazy, crazy big number for

11:13the investors and for the producers. The key is, you know, for every one of those, there's three

11:19to four to five others that, you know, they don't even make it a year or they, you know, they,

11:24someone decides to cut their losses and, and, and, you know, they just fold it up and the show goes

11:29away. Now, in contrast to that, these plays, these short run plays only take about six to nine

11:35million dollars to get to opening night. So we're talking a third of the cost of a musical

11:40and their weekly operating costs are only between $400,000 to $600,000 a week. So

11:45roughly half, I guess, uh, of what you'd say for a musical on a week to week basis. Again,

11:50that's for a very specific reason. The show's only going to run 15 weeks and then it's going to be

11:54over. It has to make its money, um, back from then. But when I was talking to people that have

11:59invested on Broadway, they say that they do it, you know, to be a patron of the arts and they'd love

12:03to get their money back. They're not necessarily in it to, to make millions and millions and millions of

12:08dollars. So these little shows, uh, I say little, you know, but, uh, these, these plays that are

12:14not musical and a little bit cheaper, if they can get their money back, they can get 10%. Um,

12:18they're more than happy to do that. If they think they're putting on a good show.

12:22So to your point, if I'm a producer and if I'm an investor, I'm seeing a show starring

12:27George Clooney. I'm seeing a show starring Denzel Washington and Jake Gyllenhaal as something with

12:33little risk, high reward. How high is that reward? How fast am I seeing that return on investment?

12:39And what does that return really look like? Yeah. So again, this season is kind of

12:46breaking the paradigm or the, the, what you would normally say for, for these types of shows.

12:51Normally it would be like, again, we've signed up Robert Downey Jr. for 14 weeks and we hope by the

12:58end of that 14 weeks that we made all the money back, uh, that we put in. And if it's a little

13:03bit more, you know, it's a little bit more, but now this season proved with the hits of George Clooney

13:09and, and, uh, Denzel Washington, Jake Gyllenhaal and Othello that we can continue to crank those

13:15ticket prices up. And now think about the economics of what I just said, where a play weekly operating

13:20costs might be 400 to $600,000 a week, but you're grossing three to $4 million in a week.

13:25You can pay those investors back very, very quickly. And in fact, George Clooney's good night

13:30and good luck recouped its initial nine and a half million dollar investment in just seven weeks.

13:35So then the next six weeks you're running, that's just pure profit going to both the investors

13:40and the producers. Um, so I, I would say given the success of these shows and given how much money

13:47there is to be made, I think you would be, if you're an investor or producer, you would be foolish

13:52not to be looking for the next massive star that you could sign up to do one of these ships.

13:57So then let's now put ourselves in the shoes of these massive stars. They go on a movie set,

14:02they make easily a cool anywhere from 10 million to 30 million to do one movie for a couple of months.

14:09Then they're on the flip side, they're in these shows, they're doing a performance a couple times

14:14a week, sometimes a couple times a day. I mean, how much money are they making and is it worth it for them

14:19financially? Yeah, I honestly, that question you just asked, I think is the more interesting one,

14:25because if you're again, if you're a producer or if you're an investor, it makes total sense.

14:30If you can get George Clooney for your production, then you're going to do it every time. Right.

14:34Uh, but why is George Clooney doing it? You know, we reported at Forbes, uh, George Clooney is one of

14:39the highest paid actors of last year. And that was because he started in a movie for Apple called

14:44Wolf's where we say that he made $30 million for that movie. If you're a star of that level for a,

14:49a theatrical release movie, maybe it's $20 million, but of course, so much more than you can make on

14:54Broadway. Uh, we are estimating at that George Clooney is getting $6 million across his run,

14:59but that's highly, highly unusual. He owned the underlying IP because he wrote and directed the

15:04movie that this show is based on. He co-wrote the stage play for this. He is a producer on the show.

15:10And then of course he's the star. So he's making money in several different buckets. Uh, the average

15:15Hollywood a-lister that's doing Broadway, we estimate only makes like one to two to $3 million

15:21for one of these short run plays. So again, if you're, let's say again, Robert Downey Jr. or Steve

15:27Carell, and you spend three months of your life doing, you know, a show, uh, and you're only making

15:34one, $2 million when you can know you can be making 20 plus million to do a movie. Why would you do it?

15:39And I think it keeps coming back to, um, you know, the purity of it, uh, of acting. Oftentimes

15:45if you're on a movie set, you know, you might do a take for 45 seconds, a minute, two minutes

15:50cut. And then it's an hour, you know, where they're setting up the next shot and you really

15:54actually don't get to act that much versus if you're doing eight shows a week that are, you know,

15:59two plus hours long, you're just getting to act so much more. You're going to use that skill.

16:05Uh, of course there's like the famous saying, uh, in Broadway that says, you know, movies will make

16:09you famous. TV will make you rich, but, uh, acting on stage will make you good, right? Theater,

16:15Broadway will make you good. Um, so I do think there's a little bit of that challenging themselves.

16:19That's certainly why Dizzo Washington keeps coming back every few years to do it is because I think

16:23he genuinely loves it. And I think we also can't, uh, discount the idea of you're acting in front of an

16:29audience that gives you a standing ovation every night. You know, that certainly, uh,

16:32has got to help the ego a little bit. Um, so why do these, why do these people do it? I think

16:37there is a prestige factor, um, associated with it. Clearly George Clooney is the toast of the town

16:43in New York right now. And that's why they do it. But the question is of course,

16:47like how many stars, uh, will be swayed by that? We'll want to be doing it because again,

16:53if this trend is going to continue and even increase, there have to be stars willing to do it.

16:57They are the, they are the limiting factor. There's only so many of them and they, of course,

17:02don't have to do this. You know, there's, there's very few reasons why they'd want to

17:05other than them really, really wanting to get out there.

17:09It's interesting because if I'm a producer, if I'm an investor

17:12and I am investing in George Clooney, as you said, little risk, high reward. If I'm George Clooney

17:17or one of those a list, there's high risk and little reward. I mean, a couple million is a big

17:24reward for a lot of people, but compared to a movie set, I mean, that's nothing. That's just

17:28a drop in the bucket. And I mean, you have to be on every single night, but I guess, I mean,

17:33who doesn't like an applause every time, every day, standing ovation once a day. I mean,

17:37that sounds good to me, but you mentioned before in this conversation that this season seems like

17:41almost like lightning in a bottle. And do you think that's the case? Do you think we're going to

17:46continue to see the success and this business model, or do you think we just have a really good

17:51right now run of Jake Gyllenhaal, of Denzel Washington, of George Clooney? Or do you think

17:57that this success, this business model is going to continue and it can be just as successful with

18:02other A-list actors? What I think is that they will certainly try. I mean, this is show business

18:10after all. And I think that producers are seeing success and they're trying to replicate it. So like

18:15one thing I saw was Harry Potter and the Cursed Child is bringing back the original actor who played

18:20Draco Malfoy in the original movies. And now they're bringing him to the Harry Potter and the

18:26Cursed Child stage show. Does that happen if the George Clooney, Denzel success doesn't happen?

18:33I don't know. Maybe it does. I mean, it's a good idea anyway, but clearly that idea of box office

18:39appeal is something that they're, if you're a producer, you're going to be reaching for,

18:43you're going to be trying to find. And the real question is, yeah, like there is only a finite number

18:48of George Clooney's and Dizzo Washington's. And if there wasn't that scarcity, you know,

18:52if it was like George Clooney is going to be on here for a year, then there would be less demand

18:57for these tickets. Right? So it really just depends on the star side, whether they want to keep doing

19:03it. The one thing I do want to say that's, I think really interesting about this trend is that these

19:09star driven shows are completely resistant to things like bad reviews or what, you know, any other of the

19:17normal factors that would determine shows success. It really seems to come down to people want to be

19:22in the same room, you know, with 1000 other people seeing a George Clooney or a Dizzo Washington perform

19:28live. And so for example, Othello, the show that Dizzo and Jake Gyllenhaal are in, didn't get great

19:34reviews. Now, good night and good luck on some really good views, some not so good and kind of a lot in the

19:41middle. But I guess as an example, I would point to is Robert Downey Jr. last fall and McNeil was like,

19:47one of the worst reviewed shows of that year. And yet still was playing to sold out rooms and the

19:53ticket prices weren't what we're seeing now. But my point is, people want to come out and see these

19:58stars, regardless of maybe how good the show is, you know, just because it's cool to do it. So I do

20:05think there, if you're a, you know, if you're a George Clooney, the risk isn't quite as much as you

20:11think. I mean, like, there's the idea of, oh, you'll be seen as doing this vanity project. And,

20:15you know, people will turn on you. It, it really doesn't seem to be that way. It seems like,

20:20you know, you're going to play to a full house and everyone's going to appreciate seeing you

20:23perform live and probably love that you were Iron Man in 2008 and care less about, you know,

20:29whether this McNeil show is any good. So I would say that maybe it's a little bit lower risk than you

20:35might think for the actor. But again, it is a substantial amount of time for them to invest.

20:40You know, it's not just the three months that they're on, but of course, like the preparation

20:43and, and things like that. So it's, it's a pretty all consuming task and we got to see how many stars

20:48want to keep doing. And I think another interesting component is that the price tag isn't deterring

20:54people either. People will shell out a couple hundred dollars, almost a thousand dollars to be in the

21:00same room as George Clooney, to be in the same room as these actors and see them perfect their craft

21:05live on stage. So do you see that these high, high ticket prices, they're not going anywhere?

21:13I would, I mean, I, if I were me projecting, yes, I would say that other shows may test out higher

21:19ticket prices because of this, just to see, um, the lesson that I'm taking away, I guess someone

21:23who like loves movies and watches that box office is just what is bringing people out is really no

21:30longer, you know, the New York times positive review or the Tony, the number of Tony awards

21:36that you're getting. Um, like I'm thinking about John Proctor is the villain is the most,

21:40uh, Tony nominated play non-musical this year. And it's grossing like less than half a million

21:46per week. Um, and the reviews were absolutely glowing. So it's either going to be stars or it's,

21:53you know, it. So Harry Potter is a really popular show. Netflix is doing a stranger things show.

21:58Um, we'll see how that goes, but like Hercules is a show that's opening on West end, um,

22:04based on a Disney movie that could eventually probably will eventually come to Broadway.

22:09And so, yeah, so whether it's the idea that brings people out or in stars, I mean,

22:12this is starting to sound a lot like what makes people want to come out for movies. And it's not,

22:17not exactly, uh, based on just the show being awesome. Um, and so I, I think that the trend of

22:22that will continue. And if that is the case, you know, if that is why people are coming out,

22:27then I would see, I would suspect that people will test how high they can make the ticket prices.

22:33It's, I guess it's unfortunate for, um, you know, your average person who lives in New York and wants

22:38to go more than once every three years or once on their one trip to New York city. And you know,

22:44and it's a kind of no expense spared thing. An $800 ticket is going to be really, really

22:50prohibitive to people, um, on just a, Hey, Thursday night entertainment. Um, and so you could see,

22:57you know, the audiences for these things change over time.

22:59And Matt, one more question for you based on your reporting. I mean, what echelon of star does the

23:05person need to be to demand that type of high ticket price? Because you mentioned John Proctor's,

23:10the devil, it got glowing reviews. It's nominated for Tony's. It has a star Sadie Sink from Stranger

23:16Things, but as you said, it's not even clearing at some, some weeks, half a million. So what echelon

23:22of star do you think it needs to be? Yeah. I mean, it's a great question. And if you were to talk to

23:29Broadway producers, you know, they would say, well, you know, it's a, it's a mix, right? So like

23:34Jeremy Strong's, uh, the enemy of the people show did really well last year, Jeremy Strong,

23:40kind of famous, you know, of course, succession, you know, did extremely well. He was Oscar nominated

23:44this past year. Um, but he's not George Clooney, right? He's not Dizel Washington. So that show had

23:50positive buzz associated with it. Um, but I, I guess I would just have people look at what shows that

23:58they would watch because of someone is in it or what movies they would watch because someone is in it.

24:02So Steve Carell is a great example. He was in Uncle Vanya, um, last year. He's an epic guy that like,

24:08yeah, I'd love to go see him perform live. And if it clears that test, then it's probably going to

24:12work, right? Paul Mescal is a movie star. Of course he led gladiator two last year. He's not a list.

24:19Everyone knows him, but the people that know him are huge fans and they will want to go see him.

24:23And he's in a show like street car, new desire. And some people came out. So I would say, uh,

24:29the same test that you would use for a TV show or movie is the same test that, um, that producers

24:35are going to use. And I would say what they would do if you had a smaller, uh, actress like a Sadie

24:41Sink, you know, you would still put her as the star of your show. You just wouldn't have those

24:47insane ticket prices. And then as the caliber of star goes up and up, you start to ratchet up,

24:52uh, how much you could charge and hopefully still play to pretty full ribs.

24:57Matt, really interesting reporting. I appreciate your time today. Thanks for joining me.

25:02Thanks for having me.

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