The big talking point of this episode of News Today is the Bengaluru stampede probe.
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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome. You're with the news today. This is your prime time destination news.
00:06Newsmakers talking points, the big talking points.
00:09Has the police in Karnataka been made the scapegoat for the Bengaluru tragedy?
00:17Have Neta's escaped scrutiny for the stampede that claimed 11 lives?
00:21Tonight, angry Bengalurians will speak out.
00:24Also, one month on, how has Operation Sindhoor impacted domestic politics?
00:32We'll have a special discussion on that too. Plus, of course, all the day's top stories.
00:37So let's start first with the nine headlines at 9 to 9.
00:42Complain filed against Virat Kohli over the Bengaluru stampede deaths by a citizen.
00:48RCB marketing manager along with three event organizers arrested.
00:53But no one has touched the politicians yet.
00:59Prime Minister Modi unveils the world's highest railway bridge in Kashmir.
01:03Flags of a Wande Bharat service between Katra and Srinagar.
01:08Makes it clear he will do whatever it takes to ensure that Indian sovereignty is not damaged in any way.
01:16Prime Minister Modi will attend G7 summit.
01:23Canada's Mark Carney calls Prime Minister to invite him, setting at rest all the speculation over that visit.
01:31Rahul Gandhi renews his Narendra surrender attacks, as Trump said it 11 times that he made Mr. Modi surrender.
01:43Union Minister Hardi Puri hits back at Rahul Gandhi, says he's acting against national interest.
01:50After NCP Sharad Fawar Group chose not to join the India bloc's demand for a special parliament session,
02:01Supriya Sule says no need for a debate, had asked Congress to wait until all party delegations returned.
02:08Huge relief to home loan borrowers, RBI cuts repo rate again by 50 basis points, which now stands at 5.5%.
02:20Repo rate cumulatively cut by 100 basis points since February.
02:25The UNUS government in Bangladesh announces fresh elections in the first half of April 2026.
02:36It's been a demand being made by various groups in that country.
02:43The Trump-Musk bromance ends in threats and insults.
02:48Reports say Musk likely to speak to Trump's White House aides.
02:52US President considering to get rid of his Tesla.
02:58But a big boost to Elon Musk, darling, as it gets a license from India's telecom ministry to run commercial operations in the country.
03:11But our top story tonight is once again coming to you from Bengaluru.
03:15The fallout of that tragic stampede that left 11 people dead.
03:19The police today have arrested an employee, a senior marketing manager of Royal Challengers Bengaluru, the IPL franchise.
03:27They've also detained some employees of the event management company that had organized the events that led to that stampede in Bengaluru.
03:37The Karnataka State Cricket Association has moved the High Court for protection against any action.
03:43But the big question, what about the politicians, those who took the crucial decisions in Bengaluru to allow the celebrations to take place without planning?
03:54Will anyone touch the chief minister's office or indeed that of the deputy chief minister?
04:00Or is the police commissioner been made a fall guy?
04:04Our top story tonight is on a city which is still angry and grieving.
04:12Take a look.
04:12Heads have started to roll in the Bengaluru stampede case.
04:28The Sid Ramayya government has suspended top police officers, including Bengaluru Police Commissioner B. Dayananda, for negligence and acting irresponsibly.
04:39The police have arrested RCB marketing head Nikhil Sosaleh and detained three officials of event management firm DNA.
04:58Sosaleh was taken into custody at the Bengaluru airport when he was reportedly flying out to Dubai.
05:05Nikhil has now moved the High Court against his arrest.
05:09Among the arrested is also the VP of the event management company, DNA, Sunil Matthew.
05:16Our teams are going around and not only arresting, we are looking into the various angles because FIR has been registered in Common Park Police Station.
05:24Different teams are working at different stages so I cannot comment on the details.
05:27But subsequently the case will go to CID so we are progressing in that.
05:32Two office bearers of the Karnataka State Cricket Association are absconding.
05:39The Karnataka cricket body has blamed the state government for the RCB victory celebrations that led to the stampede.
05:52In a petition filed in the High Court, the KSCA clarified the decision to hold the felicitation was taken by the government and an event was conducted at the Vidhana Souda.
06:02Distancing itself from the stampede, the KSCA stated it had no role in organizing the celebrations and held the government, RCB and event organizers responsible for the lapses.
06:15The permission was not been given. They wanted to travel in an open air. I said it is not there, you have to cooperate. They agreed, that's all.
06:23And did KSCA tell that there was 10 minutes only time that was given to them?
06:30Of course, of course, we had informed them. Police commissioner came and met me, asked me to just see that it concludes within 10 minutes.
06:39Karnataka government has also shunted political secretary to chief minister Govindraj, as well as commissioner, deputy commissioner and assistant commissioner and police inspector of Caban Park Police Station.
06:51BJP calls that they have been made scapegoats and there should be ministers who should take onus and tender their resignation for this particular stampede.
07:01With the regionalist Daniel Sagairas, reporting for India Today, Bengaluru.
07:04Has the police commissioner of Bengaluru been made a scapegoat in this case?
07:11Joining me now, Tara Krishnaswamy is co-founder, Citizens for Bengaluru. She joins us live.
07:16I also earlier spoke to Mohandas Pai, Chairman Ari in Capital and also a proud Bengalurian.
07:22I also hope to be joined by A.S. Ponanna, Legal Advisor to the Chief Minister, Mr. Sidhara Maya.
07:27Yeah, but to you Mohandas Pai first. 11 people dead in that stampede during the celebrations to mark the victory of RCB in IPL.
07:37A stampede of this kind is the last thing one would expect in a city that calls itself a future IT city.
07:43Today, what will you tell those in power who seem to be passing the buck, Mr. Pai?
07:49No, I think what happened was a great tragedy. It should not have happened and all of us are shocked and devastated.
07:57Losing 11 people to a stampede is unacceptable.
08:01There were small children, people who have come from outside, people who have been there for a long period of time.
08:06And I think all of us are feeling so sad and upset that this could have happened in Bangalore.
08:12It should not happen anywhere. Every life is precious.
08:14And I think, you know, we must inquire into what happened.
08:19And the crowd did not collect. Just in 5-10 minutes, the crowd collected over 2 or 3 hours.
08:24And please remember, the event happened first in Vidhan Sauda, where reportedly 1 lakh people were there.
08:30And then it moved from Vidhan Sauda to the stadium.
08:33But now some people are saying that this stampede happened around 3 o'clock or 4 o'clock,
08:38much earlier than the celebration in the stadium.
08:41So we don't know. We have to get the inquiry done to find out the sequence of events.
08:46When did people begin to gather? How many people were there? How many policemen were there?
08:51What happened? Why were there not enough policemen? Why was there no particular bandh bus?
08:55Were enough ambulances there? Was the first aid center there? Was help given to people?
09:01What exactly happened? We don't know. We're getting sketchy details.
09:03And the celebration went on. It's a great tragedy.
09:07So I think we should have an inquiry to find out the sequence of events.
09:11And those people who are negligent in their duties to manage should face some punishment.
09:18But we have to wait for the inquiry to happen.
09:20But it's a great tragedy and all of us are devastated.
09:22You know, you're mentioning time and again that first, Mr. Paidi, inquiry must happen.
09:28But already the city police commissioner, several other police officers in the Kaaban Park area are suspended.
09:34Do you fear or agree that the policemen have been made the scapegoats
09:39for what decisions were taken by the political leadership?
09:43They gave the green signal.
09:44You know, the local policemen who are in charge of that particular area obviously did not react in time,
09:53did not call for reinforcement, did not do the job for whatever we can see right now.
09:57We don't know the details, but it looks very obvious.
10:00So they must be held accountable.
10:01But the police commissioner should not be suspended.
10:04He's a man who's in charge of the entire city.
10:07And if he knew or was possibly told that this is happening, he would have got for reinforcement.
10:10And he's gone on record to say that permission has not been given by the police.
10:16When permission has not been given for the police, it is not supposed to be held.
10:20So I don't know whether the police were prepared.
10:22So I think there's an inquiry.
10:23But you know, you unnecessarily suspend a very senior person who's done his job according to whatever we know.
10:30You send a wrong message to all the police people, then they will overreact the next time.
10:35Next time any gathering is there, they'll overreact.
10:37They'll call everybody and they will take stern action against people, which is not something that should be done.
10:42And even arresting the RCB and DNA people, going off the KCF people right now, I think it's premature.
10:49We must have an inquiry.
10:50And in case you find they're done wrong, yes, please proceed against them.
10:53By having a FIR lodge against them, that is okay.
10:56But the FIR should be very clear.
10:58Based upon data, should not have statements which are wrong and fixing responsibility for them.
11:04Because KCF has gone to court from whatever we know to say that the government insisted on the celebration, not them.
11:11And I think arresting these people will have a chilling effect on liberty in the state.
11:16Because you're arresting these people, but you know, putting them behind bars.
11:20And tomorrow they turn out to be innocent.
11:21They're not responsible.
11:22What happens to them?
11:23I think it's very important to be very careful before arresting people.
11:28You file an FIR, they let the inquiry go on, have an inquiry.
11:32And then if you find that there has been dereliction of duty, they've not done the job, then of course you have to fix responsibility.
11:39But I think you want to be very, very careful in arrest all over.
11:42All over the country now, there is a mood of arrest first and disgust later, which is very wrong.
11:46I want to be joined since you're saying the general tendency seems to be arrest first and then have a proper inquiry, if at all.
11:57I'm joined at this moment by Mr. Ponanna.
12:00He is the legal advisor to the chief minister, Mr. Siddharamaya.
12:04Mr. Ponanna, you might have heard Mohandas Pai there telling us on the show that he believes that surely there should first be the inquiry
12:11before you end up suspending a police commissioner, someone of that seniority.
12:17Is this simply the government trying to find scapegoats for their own failures?
12:24Rajiv, I heard him very briefly with regard to how the arrests must take place.
12:30But by answering your question, let us be clear on a few facts.
12:38Now, the police are part of the government.
12:41Police can't be a different entity than the government.
12:47Therefore, the entire celebration that took place at the Chinnaswami Stadium was a private affair.
12:58It was DNA, RCB and the Karnataka State Cricket Association,
13:03which jointly made a request on the 3rd, that they would want to celebrate the victory of the Royal Challengers Bangalore
13:13and therefore allow us to carry out the celebration in the Karnataka State Cricket Association.
13:19Now, that application, which went to the commissioner of police, has not been dealt with.
13:28Either the application had to be accepted, permission granted by imposing certain conditions,
13:34by ascertaining what is the number of people who are going to arrive at the venue,
13:37by ascertaining so many other facts.
13:40But the application remains pending, was not decided.
13:44One minute, one minute, one minute.
13:45Just hear me, just hear me out.
13:47No, no, one minute.
13:47No, no, one minute.
13:49But you're telling me, you're telling me that the application to hold a ceremony at Chinnaswami Stadium
13:55was never cleared by the police.
13:58Then, please explain to me what was D.K. Shiv Kumar, the Deputy Chief Minister, doing inside the stadium,
14:03holding the trophy, felicitating the players, even as there was police bandho bust outside.
14:08Are you telling me that all of this was done without police permission?
14:12No, let us not mix up the issue.
14:13If you permit me, I will just take two seconds of your time to explain.
14:18Because at the end of the day, the perception that is being created by the media
14:22and the facts are two different things.
14:25Now, let us try and understand the facts if people want to know the truth.
14:29The truth of the matter is that the application was never decided.
14:34But Bandho bust facilities were provided by the police.
14:38Now, if things had gone well, obviously nothing would have happened.
14:45But things have gone drastically wrong.
14:47We are in the face of a tragedy.
14:49No, no, Mr. Ponanna, are we saying a gathering of this magnitude was done without police permission?
14:57I mean, is the attempt being made to put all the blame now on RCB and KSCA
15:02and the government of Karnataka or the police has nothing to do with it?
15:05Now, what do you want?
15:07You want the entire blame to be on the government?
15:09If that is going to make you happy, then so be it.
15:11No, no, no, no.
15:11Law and order, sir.
15:13Sir, I am saying law and order is a state subject.
15:16Now, are you even going to want to know the facts?
15:19Because see, end of the day, we are all equally in a state of mourning.
15:23Yes, sir.
15:24The point remains, why this action was taken against the police personnel
15:27is what you are questioning and it is what I am trying to answer.
15:31Please, tell me why then.
15:32This is exactly what I am trying to answer.
15:33Why was the police commissioner suspended?
15:37Third evening or whatever time on third, an application is made seeking permission
15:43by private agencies to celebrate the possible victory of the Royal Challenges Bangalore
15:49at the KSCA Stadium venue.
15:52Now, this is not a matter which was brought to the notice of either the Home Minister
15:56or the Chief Minister.
15:57Neither did the police clear that application nor did they reject that application.
16:06They claimed that they were in the middle of Bandubast for the cricket match which took
16:11place the previous day and all the revelers who had watched this match in various places
16:16who were out on the streets celebrating the victory.
16:19Therefore, they were up till 4 in the morning.
16:22They did not decide anything.
16:247 in the morning, RCB puts a post that we are having this celebration.
16:29There is no entry cost.
16:30Please come to KSCA Stadium in large numbers and celebrate the victory of RCB.
16:35This is at 7 a.m. in the morning.
16:37Nobody has given them any permission so far.
16:39Now, this started, people started coming in, in large numbers, police were compelled to
16:45provide Bandubast because the numbers were turning out.
16:49I still ask you, you have given me the chronology very well but I still ask you, why is the police
16:55commissioner then suspended?
16:57He has not given the permission.
16:58In fact, he has told reporters that I wanted the function to be held on Sunday, not on Wednesday.
17:04I wanted it to be held four days later.
17:06To whom did he tell?
17:07He should have told those who had come to him for permission that I am not in the position,
17:12the police are not in the position to provide Bandubast.
17:15You cannot have this function, have it four days later.
17:18This is what he reportedly said.
17:20This is what he reportedly said.
17:22No, let us have things on record, Rajdeep.
17:24We are here, we are trying to answer certain critical questions.
17:28I can't say from hearsay what he has said.
17:30Now, he was not able to answer this.
17:32He was not able to answer the chief minister why this application which was not decided,
17:37was not brought to the notice of the chief minister.
17:39Why was it not brought to the notice of the chief minister that they are not in a position
17:42to give Bandubast?
17:44How is it to know?
17:45Are you telling me that the chief minister who has just held a function in Vidant Souda
17:51doesn't know that another function is going to take place at Chinnaswami Stadium shortly afterwards?
17:57He doesn't know about it?
18:00Sir, till four in the morning.
18:02This is exactly why, you know, heads have rolled.
18:07Now, you cannot assume and presume that everything is done to him.
18:10The home minister does not know that the home minister should resign.
18:14If the home minister does not know that police permission has not been granted and a function
18:18of this scale is being held, then he should resign.
18:19Sir, that is why suspensions have taken place because the home minister ought to have been
18:24briefed.
18:24How is he to know?
18:25He is to know provided the police come and brief him.
18:30Sir, the home minister has no responsibility.
18:32Home minister has no responsibility.
18:36Sir, please try to understand that.
18:37The police commissioner reports to the home minister.
18:39Let us be logical.
18:41That is why, because he did not report to the home minister, did not report to the chief minister
18:45as is required, is why he is under suspension.
18:50Okay.
18:51You asked me a question, why he is suspended?
18:53I am saying this is why he is suspended.
18:54And you say that the home minister is not accountable.
18:56The home minister is accountable, provided the commissioner of police had briefed him.
19:00There is a hierarchy in the department.
19:02He does not brief him.
19:03He pays the price for it.
19:04Can I, can I for a moment bring in Tara Krishna Swami, you've heard Mr. Ponana saying, look,
19:09the chief minister, home minister were kept in the dark by the police commissioner or that
19:14the police commissioner did not inform the chief minister or home minister what exactly
19:19was happening.
19:20Do you buy this argument or do you believe that the police commissioner by all accounts
19:24a very fine officer has been made a scapegoat?
19:28Rajdeep, I want to make two or three points.
19:30Let us not get into this kind of an inquiry.
19:32One minute, one minute, one minute.
19:33One minute, let's hear a citizen voice.
19:35I'll come back to you.
19:36The commissioner of police is not there to answer this question.
19:38How does she is going to answer the question that she is briefed or not?
19:42No, no.
19:42See, in fact, I can tell you on record, I can tell you on record that the commissioner of
19:46police informed the home minister at 7.30 in the morning that he will be unable to
19:51brief him because he has been up in the night till four trying to control the revelers
19:56who are celebrating the victory of R.C.B.
19:59So he did not even do his morning briefing.
20:01Sir, I take all your point.
20:04My only point is if that is the case, why the hell was the function then allowed to
20:08go ahead?
20:11Sorry to use strong language.
20:12Why the hell was that function allowed to go?
20:14It's criminal negligence then.
20:16If no permission has been officially given, R.C.B., KSC are holding a function just a few
20:21kilometers away from Vidant Sauda and you are telling me that the home minister of Karnataka
20:25is in the dark?
20:26Have you read the suspension order?
20:31Sir, I have read the suspension order.
20:33My limited point is, I am sorry, the home minister of Karnataka cannot escape responsibility
20:38like this with due regard, sir.
20:40With due regard.
20:41With due regard, sir.
20:41The home minister of Karnataka cannot say, I didn't know that such a big function is
20:45taking place when just before that, Vidant Sauda is having an equally grand function.
20:50I didn't know that permission has not been given.
20:52How can he say that, sir?
20:53No, you are not, you are not, sir, see, that is not, uh, uh, okay, I am losing your audio
21:01for a moment.
21:02Tara Krishnaswamy, quickly respond.
21:04Do you believe that the home minister, the home minister is avoiding responsibility?
21:08Quickly, Tara.
21:09Rajdeep, I will say two things.
21:12One is that the political responsibility, accountability, resignations happen in the context of the
21:18political culture of the country at this moment, at this moment, whether it is Manipur, whether
21:23it is a railway accidents, whether it is, uh, you know, security failure at the border, there
21:28is no culture of resignation left in this country.
21:30There is no culture of responsibility, accountability at the political level left.
21:34It is, it always happens in the current context, right?
21:38We must remember that that is number one, uh, whether specific individuals, the home minister,
21:43the chief minister, uh, is responsible that we will have to wait for the inquiry that,
21:47but the general notion of taking responsibility and, uh, you know, voluntarily resigning, that
21:53culture is, uh, no longer there.
21:55It is gone for the past several years.
21:57But someone has to set an example.
21:59Someone has to set an example.
22:00My limited point is, it is very easy to suspend the police commissioner.
22:05It is the easiest thing to do.
22:06I am coming to that, Rajdeep.
22:08I am coming to that.
22:08The second thing I want to say, sir, one second.
22:10The second, Mr. Ponana, one second.
22:13One second.
22:14I waited patiently.
22:15The second thing I want to say is this.
22:17As citizens, we have protested against government or we have petitioned the government on many
22:22occasions.
22:23In each of these occasions, we are required by law to go seek permission.
22:27Actually, the law allows the, there's a freedom of protest.
22:30Regardless, we are required to go and seek permission, uh, from the police in order to
22:35be able to gather on the streets.
22:36Even if you're not protesting, even if you're gathering just for a tree plantation, if 50 people
22:41are going to gather, you have to get permission.
22:42In this case, in this case, there is a private entity, RCB.
22:47There is the BCCI that owns the IPL.
22:50All of these people make thousands of crores.
22:52The BCCI doesn't pay a single penny.
22:54Okay.
22:54And you're going to gather lakhs and lakhs of people.
22:56And you expect taxpayers to provide security for that.
23:01And ostensibly, you have not been given permission.
23:03I want to, for a minute, ask the question, why we are letting the private entities, for-profit
23:09entities, take a walk in the park?
23:11No, no.
23:11Why is it we're not holding them accountable?
23:13One minute, one minute, Tara Krishnaswamy, that's where I'll stop you.
23:16The private entities are now under the scanner.
23:18RCB's marketing manager has been arrested.
23:21KSEA officials have been named in the FIA.
23:23I'm making a different point.
23:24My limited point, my limited point in our system at the end of the day, one minute,
23:29the police commissioner reports to the home minister.
23:33What gives them the right to expect that the city and the taxpayers will fund bandho bas
23:38for 3 lakh, 5 lakh people?
23:40Why is that for a celebration we have to fund it?
23:42Madam, the private entity also is paying a price.
23:45My point is the only person getting away from this is the political executive.
23:49I'm not talking about the price after the accident.
23:51I'm asking, if I hold a wedding, I can expect 5 police officers outside just because people
23:57are gathering, but what if I invite 3 lakh people?
24:00Is the city going to provide security for me?
24:02Why is the city, my question is not, after it goes wrong, whether I'm held accountable.
24:07My question is, on what basis does a for-profit, private entity expect the city to regulate
24:12this whole thing, shut off all the streets, every metro is overflowing.
24:16Why is that okay, I'm asking?
24:18Okay, you've raised the very valid, ma'am, you've raised the very valid, ma'am,
24:21you've raised the valid point.
24:222,200 crores they make.
24:24Okay, you've raised the valid point.
24:25I'm going to give Mr. Punanna one last opportunity to respond.
24:28Mr. Punanna, the general impression is that it is very easy.
24:32You said, as a police commissioner, never been suspended.
24:35My sense is, this is a knee-jerk reaction taken to protect the political class by showing
24:40that you have done something.
24:42Why should he be held responsible?
24:43Sir, I will...
24:44Clearly, when the deputy chief minister is holding the trophy in the Chinnaswami stadium,
24:50he doesn't know, Mr. Shiv Kumar doesn't know that police permission has not been granted.
24:54Come on!
24:55Sir, what do you want me to answer?
25:00Why D.K. Shukumar participated in the function?
25:02No, my point is, why doesn't anyone from your political leadership in Karnataka say,
25:07yes, we were negligent, we made a mistake, we made a big mistake.
25:14Why can't any of them admit to the fact that they allowed a function of this magnitude to
25:18take place without police permission?
25:22That is why today we see that the police have been, a person of commissioner's standing has
25:29been suspended.
25:31Now, we cannot take...
25:32And what happens to the home minister?
25:34The home minister will continue.
25:36The home minister has no responsibility, no accountability.
25:40What the fuck must stop there?
25:45You cannot keep saying why the home minister is not resigning.
25:48Because the home minister is...
25:50About this entire show is why today the commissioner of police is under suspension.
25:57Prima facie.
25:58Enquiry has to be held.
25:59There is now a judicial commission of inquiry held.
26:01Let them decide whether the home minister was in the know of these things.
26:05Now, let us not...
26:05You know, we are here jumping the gun.
26:07We cannot just keep...
26:09Okay, I am going to leave it there.
26:10...beasing these masses by smacking these things.
26:11Sir, I am going to leave it there.
26:13I know this is a contentious issue.
26:15But I think the people of Bengaluru have every reason to get all the answers.
26:19You have given us part of the chronology and I appreciate that.
26:23I have absolutely...
26:24My only question will remain in our system...
26:27No, no, let me just add to this.
26:28Let me just add to this.
26:29Yes.
26:30As madam said, she spoke very rightly that if you are looking at probity in public life at the levels where any kind of accident, any kind of disaster, any kind of mishap must lead to the political resignation of political executive,
26:44then Puluwama must have resulted in resignations of several ministers in the Senate document.
26:50So, therefore, let us not get into an area which is non-existent in the system.
26:54I don't want to get it tonight.
26:57I do not want to get into what about me.
26:59But you have raised valid issues.
27:00I have raised valid questions, I believe.
27:03And I leave it to the people of Bengaluru and the country to decide when someone should resign taking accountability.
27:08What is that moment when a political leader in this country will say,
27:12Mia Kalpa.
27:12Rinal Badur Shastri resigned after a railway accident in 1956.
27:17But that was 1956.
27:19We are in 2025.
27:21No one in our political class resigns.
27:23Let me leave it at that.
27:24I appreciate my guests, though, joining us and raising several valid concerns on the show tonight.
27:29Thank you so much.
27:30I want to turn from Bengaluru and the heat and dust there to Jammu and Kashmir where Prime Minister Modi today,
27:40by waving a tiranga at the world's highest rail bridge in Kashmir, is seen to have given a strong reply in a way to Pakistan.
27:49The message was clear.
27:51The government is going to continue to make every effort to boost tourism in JNK, even after the dastardly
28:00Pahal Gaam terror attack.
28:02It's one month, though, tomorrow since Operation Sindur.
28:05The question is, has the government done enough?
28:08That's what I'll talk about.
28:09But first, take a look at the Prime Minister in JNK.
28:17On his first visit to Jammu and Kashmir after the Pahal Gaam terror attack, a month after Operation Sindur,
28:25Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Friday inaugurated the Chinab rail bridge and the Vande Bharat trains linking Katra and Shinagar,
28:33and delivered a message to the people of Kashmir and indeed the rest of the country.
28:40Now, if Pakistan has ever heard of Operation Sindur's name,
28:52then it will remember its own personal opinion.
28:57I have never thought that Bharat, Pakistan, will go in the middle of the sea and go into
29:19the sea and go into the sea and go into the sea and go into the sea and go into the sea.
29:24Before his visit to Kashmir, Prime Minister had addressed public rallies in Rajasthan,
29:30Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh, West Bengal and Bihar, the state which goes to
29:37polls later this year.
29:41An Operation Sindhur launched by the Indian armed forces to avenge the Pehalgaam terror
29:46attack that killed 26 people was the focus of Prime Minister's messaging.
29:54Moodi Ka Dimaag Thanda Hai, Thanda Rheta Hai, Lekin Moodi Ka Lohu Garam Ho Ta Hai.
30:03And now, Moodi Ka Lohu Garam Ho Ta Hai, and now, Moodi Ka Lohu Garam Ho Ta Hai.
30:16The world has also seen the people of our country that when Sindhur is become Barut, what is the result?
30:33Meanwhile, the Congress leadership has started questioning the circumstances under which a
30:46ceasefire was reached between India and Pakistan after the four-day skirmish making Operation Sindhur
30:53a hot political issue.
31:00Operation Sindhur is set to dominate the discourse in the build-up to the monsoon session of Parliament.
31:13How it impacts Brand Modi and the country's political landscape remains to be seen.
31:30Bureau Report, India Today.
31:35So what impact has Operation Sindhur one month on had on domestic politics?
31:39Has Brand Modi been boosted or has he been hit by it?
31:44Are the Congress questions that Rahul Gandhi raises justified or knee-jerk?
31:48Has the political consensus once and for all ended on this issue?
31:53Joining me now, Pawan Kumar Verma, author, diplomat, former MP.
31:56Rahul Verma, fellow Center for Policy Research, does a lot of polling as well.
32:01Ashok Malik is partner at the Asia Group and Eurasia Group.
32:05And Sanjay Jha, political analyst, once with the Congress Party.
32:08Appreciate each of you joining us.
32:10Let's go one by one to each of you to answer those questions.
32:13Pawan Kumar Verma, what's your view?
32:14One month on, has Brand Modi been enhanced?
32:18Or are there still troubling questions that this government is refusing to answer?
32:23No, I think Brand Modi is not substantially dented.
32:31And the nation stood with the government and our brave armed forces during opposition Sindhur
32:39and were in praise of the unprecedented retaliatory action we took after the heinous terrorist attack in Pahal Gaal.
32:49That's clear.
32:50And at that time, the government stock and that of Prime Minister Modi was extremely high.
32:56The nation was proud of the fact that India could avenge this kind of an attack through deep penetrative strikes into Pakistan.
33:06But since then, I say this not because of politics, some of the sheen of that victory has worn off.
33:17And it is something that has happened because there are too many questions which are hanging in the air.
33:25I'll just list four or five of them very quickly for you.
33:29One of them is that if we were, as per our own briefings, on such a high in terms of the amount of damage we were causing to Pakistan,
33:43why was the ceasefire called so abruptly?
33:46Now, here there are, in the public domain, two completely opposed versions of what happened.
33:53First of all, the ceasefire was announced by President Donald Trump.
33:57Secondly, his Commerce Secretary of State for Commerce, which is their Commerce Minister,
34:04has said on oath in the US court that the ceasefire was quote-unquote only achieved because of President Trump's intervention
34:19when he offered greater trade access to both India and Pakistan to avert a nuclear war.
34:27Now, as against this, our own official spokesman earlier on July 13th said that during Operation Sindhu there were only conversations with America.
34:39He specifically said that there were no conversations relating to trade.
34:44And thirdly, in a public press briefing he said the ceasefire was bilateral and America had no hand in it.
34:52Now, you have two completely opposed statements in the public domain.
34:58Now, if people ask which one is right and which one is wrong, I don't believe you are being anti-national.
35:08I don't believe you are a Pakistani agent.
35:11I believe you have praised the government for the stand it took but it's legitimate in a democracy to ask a question
35:18and the government is not forthcoming on the answer.
35:21Secondly, we are a bit isolated on foreign policy.
35:24It's become apparent. It's become apparent.
35:27During Operation Sindhu, except for two countries, Israel and France,
35:33which supported India's right to self-defense against the terrorism of Pakistan,
35:41all other countries condemn terrorism generically without naming the epicenter of terrorism which is Pakistan,
35:51not even Trump, whose country has been the victim of the worst attack of Islamic terrorism in human history.
35:58Mr. Varma, may I stop you?
35:59So, we are in a situation where today, Pakistan...
36:03Mr. Varma, I've heard you. I think you've made your point loud and clear.
36:06You're saying that there are certain troubling questions that are still unanswered,
36:11particularly how the ceasefire was called by... was announced by Donald Trump.
36:16The fact that our foreign policy, according to you, has in a way...
36:20there's a huge question mark over it. Why did more countries not directly name Pakistan?
36:25Why are we being hyphenated with Pakistan?
36:27Ashok Malik, respond.
36:29That the initial euphoria of having struck inside Pakistan, Punjab, struck terror bases,
36:35in some way, according to Pawan Varma, has got diluted in the last few weeks.
36:40Thank you, Rajdeep. Three points here, which will to some degree answer Pawan Varma's points,
36:47also make broader points. One, we've had three cross-border counter-terrorism strikes
36:54in Mr. Modi's period as Prime Minister in 2016, 2019, and now 2025.
36:59This one was the most ambitious and the most complex military.
37:03It struck, as Pawan has said, into the heartland of Pakistan.
37:07It has destroyed terror camps or damaged terror camps in Pakistani Punjab.
37:13Pakistan escalated. There was the Indian Air Force and the Indian Armed Forces responded.
37:19Pakistan's air bases were substantially damaged, after which Pakistan could not really escalate
37:25without the assurance of air support. Militarily, this was a success.
37:32Military strategists across the world have acknowledged that, as more and more evidence has come out.
37:36India and the Indian Armed Forces learned from Balatwot.
37:40They presented evidence, strong evidence, much more quickly, including visual evidence.
37:45Obviously, as a leader, political leader of the government, Prime Minister Modi gets credit for this,
37:50gets credit for being a strong leader.
37:53Where we could have done much, much better was in our communication.
37:57It was quite honestly all over the place during Operation Sindhu.
38:01And that has hurt us.
38:03It's quite clear that we've had to send delegations of parliamentarians to many countries, in a sense, to make up for that.
38:10Our strategic communications did not match our military prowess and our military capability.
38:16And there, again, the government needs to ask itself questions.
38:20Coming to the third point about President Trump making the claims that he is,
38:25none of which are borne out by any evidence he has been able to present.
38:29He didn't even have a conversation with the Prime Minister during the period of Operation Sindhu, and trade was not brought up.
38:35It has been contradicted by the Joint Secretary of External Publicity, the spokesperson of the MEA.
38:40It has been contradicted by the External Affairs Minister, Mr. Jay Shankar, as well.
38:45Thankfully, the Prime Minister has not got into this tutu meh meh or this battle with President Trump,
38:51which is obviously frustrating and irritating because he can't start taking on a fellow head of government.
38:58Why Mr. Trump is doing this for his own domestic reasons is entirely up to him.
39:03And if Pawan Barma says that we don't know who to believe,
39:06frankly, I would rather believe the Indian Foreign Minister than the US President who seems to say all sorts of things at all sorts of times.
39:13Okay. We've heard two new points.
39:15And we should tell the Americans that.
39:17Okay. Okay.
39:18Mr. Jay Shankar has.
39:19Pawan, I'll come back to you and we'll keep our comments a little short if possible.
39:24Sanjay Jha, you want to respond to what you've just heard.
39:28You've been a critic of the Modi government.
39:31Do you believe that the Congress Party in particular, by raising some of these uncomfortable questions,
39:37inconvenient questions, runs the risk now, a month later of being branded anti-national?
39:43You know, to be honest with you, Razdeep, I'm very glad that the Congress Party is raising serious fundamental questions.
39:51Now, you know, this whole narrative in our country that if you support the government during the time of conflict or war and you ask them questions are really not in sync is absolutely bizarre because they're not mutually exclusive.
40:06The Congress Party supported the government.
40:09And the Congress Party had the right to ask as to how did the ceasefire operation only happen after Donald Trump's tweet goes global.
40:18It's a very serious.
40:19But does that mean you use word like surrender, Narender?
40:21Do you mean, you know, it's one thing to ask questions.
40:24The manner in which you ask questions also makes a difference.
40:27If you say surrender, Narender, you're effectively telling the world or India that India surrendered to Pakistan.
40:34Yeah.
40:35If you can just let me finish.
40:36I have a train of thoughts here.
40:38When the ceasefire happened amongst the eminent people who questioned his abrupt closure was the man who headed India during the Kargil war, General VP Malik.
40:48You should read his tweet.
40:49He basically mentioned what is the material gain in this extremely dramatic and sudden closure.
40:56So there are.
40:57It's not just about the optics.
40:59It's about the eventual logical military successes that you probably foregone here.
41:05That that is the fundamental point.
41:06The other aspect that we cannot ignore.
41:08And I think that's crucial because, you know, Razdeep, you have shown it on your channel.
41:14Both the home minister and the prime minister created this normalcy narrative on Jammu and Kashmir, making it appear through certain data points that they picked up, whether it was tourism or less of stone pelting, etc.
41:27To say that it was safe at Jammu Kashmir after Article 370 was absolutely ready to invite one and all.
41:35Clearly, that was an absolute false, shall we say, you know, optimism, if one is going to be charitable.
41:43If you look at the data between 2019 till to the latest data that one has roughly 277 soldiers and around 212 civilians dead in over 730 incidents.
41:57Now, you can claim a relative change in some degree of peace, but is that an absolute level to go and make these blanket generalizations that Jammu and Kashmir was beyond terrorism?
42:10Absolutely not.
42:11Absolutely not.
42:12We don't ask these questions of the prime minister and the home minister.
42:14And my last point, where are the terrorists?
42:17For God's sake, ladies and gentlemen, these are people who walked in through the borders, enters, enter Palgam, which I know is much deeper into into Kashmir, and they are nowhere to be found.
42:30This is an intelligence and security failure as well.
42:33And since everybody says Operation Sindhu is on, I think Rahul Gandhi and the Congress is right in asking, can we skip all this extremely crude rhetoric, these pseudo muscular nationalistic speeches, and ask the question, are we safe to begin with?
42:50I mean, this is not the time to promote political marketing.
42:54Okay, you made the point. I'm giving y'all initially more remarks and then I'll ask you to keep them crisp because we have limited time.
43:01Rahul Verma, as a political scientist, we saw after Balakot, the BJP benefited hugely in the elections that followed.
43:10There's no election now till November. We've even seen not the same level of support for some of the Tiranga yatras that the BJP has taken compared to the kind of the mood that existed in Balakot.
43:22Have something changed? Or do you believe Brand Modi is still as strong as ever or the BJP benefits by the fact that they can tell the world,
43:31So, Razit, three points. I think the fallout of Operation Sindhu in terms of India's foreign policy approach here on and how it will affect domestic politics in medium to long term needs to be still seen.
43:49And that will depend on what kind of political narratives both the BJP as well as the opposition is going to build.
43:58I think the second point, which is what you sort of also asked, opposition has every right to ask government questions.
44:06But to me, what they might be doing not right is the kind of language they are using and the platforms they are using.
44:15And this has ability to backfire.
44:17Point three. And this is just based on one survey data which was on India today.
44:23I think seawater had conducted small sample surveys right before and after the ceasefire.
44:30And there are some indications from that survey.
44:33First, people think that India managed to achieve what it ought to achieve after the terror strike.
44:42Two, they are okay with ceasefire.
44:45A large number of Indians supported ceasefire and a large number of Indians did not want war because they understand that there is.
44:54So they wanted to teach Pakistan a lesson, but they also didn't want a prolonged conflict.
44:59And three, they seem to be satisfied with the actions that Indian government has taken in the course of Operation Sindhu.
45:09Given that, I think the BJP and government at the domestic level have succeeded in conveying what they think was the right thing to do at the moment.
45:21But I also agree with Ashok Malik's point that there are some communication gaps as far as sort of like how we projected operations to the internet.
45:33I want shorter statements from each of you in the second round.
45:37Pavan Verma specifically, communication.
45:40Is Operation Sindhu purely to be seen as even some supporters of the government would suggest as a communications question mark, but militarily successful?
45:50Or do you still believe both diplomatically and in communication terms, the Modi government has troubling questions to answer?
45:58Are there questions?
45:59If there is one big question that you still want an answer for one month later, what is that question?
46:05Well, I would say that the entire country is extremely proud of our armed forces and the valor and sacrifice that they obviously made to fight Operation Sindhu.
46:20That is not in doubt and to use what the armed forces achieved for short term politicization of Sindhu as the ruling party appears to be doing is frankly shallow and opportunistic.
46:35It doesn't look very logical.
46:38So what's the question?
46:39What's the major unanswered question, sir?
46:42The question, the question, the major unanswered question for me is that after all these years of foreign policy as a continuum, Rajdeep foreign policy is not episodic.
46:57You send delegations of MPs around the globe and think that you will change perceptions.
47:04Foreign policy is a continuum.
47:06If after decades of having made that effort, and I don't include only this government, the general perception was that the world did not stand with India's condemnation of Pakistan as the epicenter of terrorism.
47:24At a time when there was the most verifiable evidence at a time when there was the most verifiable evidence of it at Pehlgaab.
47:31I think there are ways in which we need to change our strategy.
47:36Pakistan, as you are yourself aware, just become the chairperson of the anti-Taliban committee in the UNC.
47:44It's become the vice president of the counter-terrorism operation in the Security Council.
47:50And here our delegations are going around the globe trying to convince them that Pakistan is the source of terrorism.
47:59But I want to ask the question, why is this effort even needed?
48:04And that is a question we need to ask ourselves as a professional diplomat.
48:10It's not just a communication failure.
48:12You seem to suggest it's a question mark over our diplomacy.
48:16Ashok Malik, this is now Pawan Verma seasoned diplomat raising it.
48:20It is not just a communication failure, he says.
48:22There is a serious question mark over our diplomatic outreach that we have to send all party delegations who many of them have not even been able to meet the top leaderships of those countries.
48:33And none of those countries are directly naming Pakistan.
48:36They are all generically condemning terrorism, not condemning Pakistan yet.
48:41With due respect, Pawan Verma is a very seasoned diplomat, an ambassador of longstanding, a matchmate of the current external affairs minister.
48:50But this is also Pawan Verma, the politician speaking.
48:53Look, he's setting an ideal or a metric that is nearly impossible to meet.
49:02Remove Pakistan from the UN Security Council and get every one of 200 countries to boycott it.
49:08Otherwise, India's diplomacy is a failure.
49:10Now, what sort of argument is that?
49:12In essence, that is what he's saying.
49:14Please look at it this way.
49:15Just one minute, Pawan.
49:17Let me finish, please.
49:18I didn't interrupt you.
49:19Let's look at it this way.
49:20As I said, we've had three cross-order strikes in the Modi period, 2016, 2019 and now.
49:26Pakistan's argument made since 1999, since 1998 and since Pokhran, has been that you cannot have any escalation, any conflict with India.
49:39In any manner, because it will escalate immediately to nuclear status.
49:46India called that bluff in 2016 and in 2019.
49:51On both occasions, it had to persuade other countries that this was not going to turn nuclear.
49:57This time, after Pehelgaam, no country exercised shuttle diplomacy.
50:04No country sent messages to India saying, don't respond.
50:08It was taken for granted that India had the right to respond.
50:12There was confidence that the Modi government would respond in a measured manner, which is what it did by targeting just terror camps.
50:19I think that is the success of Indian diplomacy.
50:22Okay.
50:23I take your point.
50:24I have just a minute left.
50:25I'm going to give 30 seconds each.
50:26First to you, Sanjay Jah.
50:27Your sense, therefore, if I were to ask you the one biggest success, since you're a critic of the government, will you give any credit at all for Operation Sindhuul in any form to this government?
50:39Well, I think everyone will congratulate India's armed forces, but I think we are missing the elephant in the room.
50:46The problem, Rajdeep, is that Mr. Modi's government uses foreign policy and national security primarily for its domestic politics.
50:55You know that.
50:56I think everybody knows it.
50:57Now, this is where the problem lies.
50:59Look at what's happened during the Operation Sindhuul phase.
51:02Did the Quad countries stand up with India?
51:05Russia remain neutral.
51:06They have now the China-Russia axis.
51:09You have basically no country that truly stood up to say, I mean, what they knew was a fact that India is a victim of cross-border terrorism.
51:19And this diplomatic isolation is happening at a time when Pakistan today has got a vice chairmanship of the UN counter-terrorism committee.
51:30It's going to look at Taliban sanctions committee.
51:33It got loans from the Asian Development Bank and the IMF without anybody, the real big players, protesting.
51:42These are manifestations of a failed foreign policy.
51:45And, Rajdeep, don't ignore the neighborhood.
51:47For God's sake, in our own neighborhood where we used to once upon a time have great relations, we are being seen as a regional bully.
51:55Bangladesh, in my opinion, is probably the biggest foreign policy disaster that we have seen in a long time.
52:03I mean, these are critical failures, Rajdeep.
52:06And I think Mr. Modi's government has a lot to explain to the people of our country.
52:10Okay, so the success is the armed forces. All the failures are heaped at the Modi government.
52:15But, Rahul Verma, do you believe that if Rahul Gandhi and the opposition persist in raising some of these questions, some of which are entirely valid?
52:23Security lapsed in Pehelgav, where are the terrorists? Were jets shot down?
52:28These are questions that they are raising.
52:30Do you believe that these are questions that will get them any political benefit?
52:34Or do you believe, at the end of the day, voters in Bihar, for example, next big election, don't care about Operation Sindur.
52:41They care about caste politics on the ground.
52:44So, I want to make two points, Rajdeep.
52:46First, I think we need to understand India's response in the changing global context.
52:522019, global context was different.
52:552025, global context is different.
52:58Even our failure in neighbourhood, if that is true, you have to also understand that the neighbourhood has completely changed in its political orientation.
53:07You had a fallout in Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Pakistan, all were their internal making.
53:12So, let's not read our neighbourhood just what India is doing, neighbourhood is also doing.
53:17But does the voter care? Does the voter care?
53:19Does the voter want this kind of muscular image when he goes out and votes?
53:22Or is he more worried about issues on the ground?
53:25See, both things also work simultaneously.
53:29As I pointed out those things from the data, which is that voters wanted Pakistan to be taught a lesson.
53:36Voters think that Modi government has done enough.
53:39Voters also did not want war to go ahead with.
53:43And voters also don't trust Pakistan to see through the ceasefire, right?
53:48So, they can see all of these things together.
53:51Given this, I think at the moment, Prime Minister Modi and BJP sits pretty well on the sort of like domestic political sentiment.
54:01Can they gain more? I don't think that's possible given the situation.
54:06But if opposition continues to use the language and the platforms they are using, they might have a problem.
54:15Should they raise questions? Yes, that's their job.
54:18But they should find both the platform and the language to ask in a way that it seems sensible.
54:25I want to leave it there. I appreciate my guests joining us.
54:29Maybe we'll have a round table next week looking at India's diplomatic challenges and more.
54:33Today, the program was divided into two parts because there was that big story out of Bengaluru.
54:38But I appreciate my guests joining us.
54:40Just about enough time as always to say, good night.
54:44Good night. Jai Hind. Shubratri. Namaskar.