00:00Now, Daniel Levy is president of the U.S. Middle East Project and a former senior advisor to the Israeli government.
00:07He joins us now. Daniel, thanks for your time.
00:10Let's start with this. The U.S. last night vetoing a U.N. Security Council resolution calling for a ceasefire and immediate aid for Gaza.
00:19What signal does this move by the U.S. send Israel?
00:22Please continue to do your worst. You have our backing. You have our cover.
00:30We are still going to be the enablers of this genocide as we, the U.S., have been for the entirety of this period ever since the Israelis announced that their response to the events of October 7th would be the collective punishment of the Palestinian civilian population in Gaza.
00:52So the cutting of food, fuel, water, electricity, ever since the International Court of Justice first issued its urgent provisional measures in January of 2024, 18 months ago.
01:04So what you had here, Sally, was a very modest resolution.
01:09It said the things you mentioned. It said let in the humanitarian aid, get a ceasefire.
01:14It said release all these raids being held in Gaza.
01:19So it said those things.
01:22It was then supported by 14 of 15 members of the U.N. Security Council.
01:28It was put forward by the 10 non-permanent members.
01:31And it was vetoed by the United States.
01:35This is, depending on how you count it, the fifth or sixth veto the U.S. has imposed on a Gaza-based resolution during this time.
01:44It is one of decades of vetoes the U.S. has imposed.
01:48So this brings that whole structure into question.
01:51But, Sally, perhaps even more important than what the U.N. is doing at the Security Council is that the U.S. continues to provide the arms without which this could not continue.
02:06Providing those to Israel is the continuation of the Biden policy by the Trump administration.
02:12Such an important point you make.
02:14Many of Israel's former allies are now signaling their absolute horror what's going on in Gaza.
02:20What more can and should those countries be doing?
02:23I mean, is it time for them to consider sanctions, political isolation?
02:28It's well past that time.
02:31The gap, Sally, between the language that we are hearing from Europeans and others,
02:39the way they are describing what is being done in Gaza compared to the policies they undertake, could not be wider.
02:48It is a chasm.
02:51So you have, for instance, the U.K. using the language it has used.
02:55Then it sends one of its trade officials out to strengthen the trade ties.
02:59It continues to allow arms exports.
03:01The same with other European states.
03:03Germany today confirmed it would continue arms exports.
03:06That is in violation of the rulings of the international court system to which they claim to adhere.
03:13They claim to adhere to international legality.
03:16And they are complicit enablers of all those images, the horrors, the genocide that we are seeing in Gaza.
03:25So the words are meaningless and they will be judged by history for that gap between what they say, what we see and how they are allowing this to continue.
03:37It's not just about the U.S., although the U.S. is, of course, in prime position.
03:42Daniel, I've got to ask, you're a former negotiator.
03:44You are used to seeing both sides trying to find the middle ground.
03:47Where would you start in trying to get talks started again or are the positions so polarized it's virtually impossible?
03:55You know, there is no middle ground when one side when and let's not both sides this, Sally, there is a nuclear armed occupying power.
04:09This is a symmetry taken to an extreme.
04:13And you have that same power that occupies Palestinian territories that prevents anything from going in.
04:21You have that power openly telling us that they intend to ethnic cleanse the territory.
04:26They intend to kettle the Palestinians into an area of 20 percent of Gaza.
04:30And they continue to demonstrate that they will prevent the most basic of necessities, including food and water, from getting into those people.
04:38So that's not that's not an opening position for a bargain.
04:42What one needs is the demonstrable shift in the incentive structure, that there will be costs incurred for this behavior.
04:50And then Israel will have to come back and say, OK, how do we change this?
04:55There is pressure from inside Israel.
04:56Many of the families of those still being held do not believe for one moment that Netanyahu is prioritizing them.
05:02Some of Israeli society is exhausted.
05:04It doesn't have an end of supply of reserves, but it still has the ability to be treated as a normal actor by far too much international community and therefore to do what it is doing.
05:14Important point you're making.
05:16Thank you so much.
05:17That's Daniel Levy, president of the U.S. Middle East Project, also a former senior advisor to the Israeli government.
