Russia Won the War 🇷🇺🔥 - John Mearsheimer, Alexander Mercouris & Glenn Diesen | Explained | Forbidden News - video Dailymotion

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In this powerful roundtable discussion 🧠🎙️, renowned political analysts John Mearsheimer, Alexander Mercouris, and Glenn Diesen break down why they believe Russia has effectively won the war in Ukraine 🇷🇺🇺🇦. With deep insights into NATO strategy, U.S. foreign policy, and the shifting global balance of power 🌍⚖️, they reveal how the Western narrative has unraveled—and what this means for the future of Europe and international diplomacy.  This video dives into the realities on the ground, media narratives 📰, and long-term geopolitical consequences of the Ukraine conflict. Whether you support the West or take a neutral stance, this analysis will challenge mainstream perspectives and offer a sobering look at the future of global order 🕊️🚨.  #RussiaWon #UkraineConflict #JohnMearsheimer #AlexanderMercouris #GlennDiesen #RussiaUkraineWar #Geopolitics #NATOvsRussia #EasternEuropeWar #GlobalPowerShift #UkraineWarUpdate #PoliticalAnalysis #RealismInIR #WesternNarrative #WarExplained #USForeignPolicy #RussianStrategy #WorldNews #PeaceOrPower #UkraineCrisis2025 #TruthAboutWar  Keywords used: Russia Ukraine war analysis, John Mearsheimer Russia Ukraine, Glenn Diesen geopolitical view, Alexander Mercouris updates, Russia won Ukraine war, NATO vs Russia conflict, Ukraine crisis explained, global political shift, U.S. foreign policy failure, Ukraine frontline reality, Ukraine war update 2025, war strategy explained, media vs truth Ukraine, geopolitics analysis 2025, realist political theory, Russian military success, diplomacy breakdown, Ukraine battlefield analysis, post-war Europe, war documentary commentary.

Transcript

00:00:00everyone and welcome on today's program i'm joined by john mersheimer and alexander mccurris

00:00:07to discuss where the proxy war in ukraine is going as i guess everyone's been following the

00:00:15very dramatic developments on the front lines but also the negotiations which are i guess less clear

00:00:22and yeah i thought it's a good point to start where the negotiations are going because russia

00:00:28of course has set some very big or some very big demands which are difficult to meet while the eu

00:00:35and zelensky seem to reject everything that russia has demanded uh well the u.s wants to end the war

00:00:42but it has no leverage over the russians and so far it's been willing to put significant pressure

00:00:49on zelensky and the europeans so i are these negotiations going anywhere or are they already

00:00:55dead in the water well i i will float my own opinion which is that these negotiations are not

00:01:03exactly dead in the water but they're not going to be what ends the war what ends the war is the

00:01:11situation on the battlefields um that is what is going to end the war because the russian proposals

00:01:18which i don't think the russians see as unreasonable or maximalist i mean we call them that in the west

00:01:28but i've just been to russia and that was not my impression of how they're seen there on the contrary

00:01:34there they're seen as almost minimal the the least that russia could demand anyway i don't imagine anybody in the west

00:01:43um the europeans the ukrainians obviously or even the americans ever accepting them so in terms of the

00:01:52war i i can't really see how these negotiations can produce a positive outcome to end it but what they

00:02:00might do is if they can be continued in a way that results in some kind of a resumption if not of a

00:02:11dialogue but perhaps of communication between russia and the united states then over time

00:02:21they might lead to something in terms of not an american russian rapprochement i think that is asking

00:02:28too much but at least a certain level of understanding between these two powers which we've not had very

00:02:35much of not just for the last three years but even further so i i'd say this still has some purpose to

00:02:42it but not the purpose that it's you know presented as or designed to have which is to end the war i mean

00:02:50i just cannot see how the gap between the two sides can possibly be bridged and i think the one meeting

00:02:57that took place between the two sides in istanbul on the 16th of may made that absolutely clear

00:03:05i agree with alexander that it's hard to see how this could possibly lead to some sort of

00:03:12meaningful peace settlement and of course the west doesn't want a peace settlement right away what it

00:03:19wants is a ceasefire and the russians have made it unequivocally clear god knows how many times that

00:03:26that's unacceptable but we continue to push for it and uh it's not going to happen so the question that

00:03:34that raises in my mind is what's going on here i mean what is the purpose of all this and i actually

00:03:41think in the west um the people who are in favor of continuing this war are using these negotiations

00:03:51to their advantage and i think in a very important way trump has fallen into the trap because what happens

00:03:59here is we constantly call for a ceasefire which seems intuitively plausible or reasonable to the

00:04:09average person and then when the russians don't agree we blast the russians for being unreasonable

00:04:17and of course we also have to face the fact that there's a war taking place uh at the same time

00:04:25we're attempting to start negotiations so that allows people in the west to say the russians continue to

00:04:35fight when we are interested in trying to shut this war down we're pushing for a ceasefire we want to

00:04:42talk and look at what the russians are doing uh you know firing missiles at the ukrainians and continuing

00:04:51to attack on the eastern front this is unreasonable so trump is getting into this situation where he i

00:04:59think feels compelled to get tougher and tougher with the russians uh and this of course just makes the

00:05:07situation worse and it prolongs the war so my point would be that the negotiations as alexander says are

00:05:17going to lead nowhere in terms of getting a peace deal and indeed if anything the fact that these

00:05:23things continue uh pushes in the other direction and make sure we'll never get a peace deal because

00:05:30the russians are made to look unreasonable and trump is put in a position where he has to play tough with

00:05:35the russians which makes it impossible to get a deal it's hard to see how these talks are genuine it seems

00:05:43as you both suggest it's more about the narrative control because you hear the same argument always

00:05:48especially from the europeans that is russia doesn't want peace uh you know if they wanted peace they

00:05:54wouldn't be launching their missiles this is uh you know the macron argument but uh but you know the

00:05:59other side if if the if russia wasn't uh you know on the offensive if it wasn't taking territories if it

00:06:05wasn't launching this missile strikes why would the zelensky and the europeans be willing to make any

00:06:11concessions at all i mean the whole idea that if russia wants peace then it stops fighting well if if

00:06:18this is the case uh the zelensky and ukrainians sorry zelensky and europeans don't need to accept

00:06:24neutrality they don't have to talk about territorial settlement uh instead the whole idea is let's just

00:06:31stop fighting but uh yeah as you say this sounds right but but it's uh would keep the war going and

00:06:38uh but uh i think it's working on trump though i guess that's my point uh over the past few days

00:06:44now again one shouldn't read too much into the rhetoric but still calling president putin crazy

00:06:50and also warning russia that bad things could happen and the whole criticism appeared to be premised on

00:06:57russia russia striking kiev which was a very massive attack but again leaving out what preceded it

00:07:03the the ukrainian attack likely supported by at least europeans on moscow uh once you leave this

00:07:12out uh you know that it sounds like another unprovoked aggression but uh but why why would he lean into

00:07:19such a narrative unless he's also then as you say falling into the trap of the europeans to paint this

00:07:26as uh you know one side is innocent and good and wants peace the other side is aggressive and um

00:07:32i'm just wondering if the russians are losing their patience uh medvedev responded to trump with this

00:07:41argument that you know if you think bad things will happen to us the bad thing will be you know

00:07:45nuclear war again they also communicate these days in a bit of fractured sentences so it's a bit

00:07:50uh you know i'm clear exactly what they wanted to say well i think the first thing to say about this

00:07:57is that moscow is a very very complicated and very big place and i'm sure that there's many people in

00:08:03the russian government who have different views there are some who say let's continue this negotiation

00:08:08process because we need to maintain some kind of dialogue with the united states and that might turn

00:08:15out to our long-term advantage there are others who say this is a complete waste of time it is

00:08:21resulting in exactly the dynamic that john and glenn just outlined it's actually helping to crystallize

00:08:31opinion in the west against us and it's not going to lead to a kind of peace settlement on anything

00:08:38remotely like our terms so i i think that there are divergent views i think putin is more

00:08:45willing to continue with this process because he's had up to now a reasonably good relationship

00:08:50with trump and i suspect there's others within the russian leadership who take a more hardline view

00:08:56and that by the way is what one would expect of a country as complex and as sophisticated as russia is

00:09:04which finds itself at war it is not uh you know an autocracy despite what people think and there are

00:09:12different views and i'm sure that in private they are expressed and every so often we get these

00:09:20you know differences uh they find their echo in public in public discussions now i as for as for what

00:09:29has happened i going to make my own view and i've said this we've been saying this um on on our various

00:09:35programs um the ones that we do on the durand i i think that donald trump probably felt that he had no

00:09:42alternative he was going to bring this war to an end than to involve himself in negotiations but

00:09:50doing so always risked that he would fall into the trap that he has indeed fallen into and um we were

00:09:58talking about this um alex christopher and myself in programs way back in the summer i think we touched on

00:10:05this on some of the programs that the three of us have also done together i think what happened was

00:10:13that trump who is not very familiar with the details of this conflict or its history was probably

00:10:23persuaded that it would be easier to sort out than it really is and i think he was told look go for a

00:10:30ceasefire both sides are exhausted they're both suffering very very heavy losses they will leap

00:10:38to a ceasefire you can kick the question of nato into the long grass you can offer the russians sanctions

00:10:46relief they will seize onto that and the ukrainians well you've got enormous leverage over them anyway they

00:10:53will just accept the fact that they can't recover recover the territories that they have lost and i think that trump

00:11:00plunged into this whole negotiation with that expectation and what he has found is that the russians

00:11:12are not interested in the kind of outcome that those advisors who were telling trump this people like

00:11:20general kellogg for example um you know told trump that they would be they want much much more

00:11:27more because as john has said many times as you glenn have also said many times for the russians this is an

00:11:37existential conflict they consider it utterly and very important to themselves they will not settle for a

00:11:44freeze of the conflict which would simply be a return in effect to a kind of minsk type

00:11:53situation which could only result in their long-term disadvantage i think trump at some level now has come to

00:12:01understand this but i don't think he has a clear idea of how to get himself out of this trap i think he thought that

00:12:09the negotiations direct negotiations which he backs without a ceasefire might be a way through again i think he

00:12:18underestimated underestimated the enormous gulf that exists between the ukrainians and the russians and i think

00:12:26again he assumed that the russians would be more flexible on what they want than they actually are

00:12:35or themselves believe that they can be so i think this is why trump is in the position that he is in

00:12:43and i don't know a very very simple way out of this and yes he is coming under pressure to take a harder

00:12:51line i don't think he particularly wants to go there he's made various threats in the past back in

00:12:58january he was threatening the russians with massive sanctions and then he eased off and then he's had me talk

00:13:04conversations with putin and we seem to get to a situation where things look like they're going better

00:13:11between the america between trump and the russians and now we're back to the situation where it looks

00:13:17as if they're getting worse again so i don't think trump has any very clear idea of what to do because

00:13:22he's found himself in a situation that he never expected you know alexander i find it surprising

00:13:30that trump didn't understand early on what was necessary to shut down this war i mean he had a

00:13:39conversation with putin early on and whitkoff had a series of conversations and the russians surely

00:13:47must have made it clear what the terms of a deal had to be from their point of view uh you don't need

00:13:55a triple digit iq to figure this out the russians have said time after time what they demand uh from a

00:14:06deal and uh i don't understand why we don't understand that why we think that we can bargain

00:14:13with them that there's a lot of bargaining space here we can get them to concede here and there and

00:14:19we'll make concessions here and there and so forth and so on this is just not the way it's going to

00:14:23work the russians have insisted from the beginning that there are a handful of bedrock demands that simply

00:14:32have to be met but if you listen to whitkoff and you listen to trump and others speak it's like we

00:14:38just don't get this and i find that very hard to understand uh another point i would make here is uh

00:14:48i don't understand why trump and company don't understand that ukraine is going to lose and it's

00:14:55going to lose reasonably soon if you look at what's going on in the war it's pretty clear that

00:15:01the ukrainians are in really big trouble and even the mainstream media you know places like the

00:15:07financial times russi and so forth and so on are saying this all you have to do is look at the

00:15:13various articles about the state of the war in the mainstream media and it's very clear that the

00:15:19ukrainians are on the rope and furthermore trump is not going to give them a new tranche of weaponry

00:15:26he's not going to go back to congress doesn't that tell you that this country that's on the ropes

00:15:31is doomed uh whether it happens you know in november or august or january of next year doesn't really

00:15:39matter that much it's kind of all over with so why don't you understand that and act accordingly i just

00:15:48i kind of don't understand what's going on here uh from trump's point of view and then the final

00:15:53point i would make is that if you look at what the russians are doing the russians do engage in these

00:16:00negotiations they surely understand that it's fruitless they surely understand that dealing

00:16:05with trump is almost impossible because he says one thing one day another thing another day

00:16:11so forth and so on but the march much more important point is that the russians just continue

00:16:18to wage the war as if no negotiations were taking place uh and if you look at what's happening on the

00:16:26front lines number one and if you look at the pounding that ukraine is taking behind the front lines

00:16:35and then deep in ukrainian territory uh it's kind of frightening what's happening to ukraine its

00:16:42infrastructure is being torn apart its ability to supply front line forces is greatly reduced if you

00:16:48look at the numbers up on the front line it's quite clear that the russians uh enjoy a huge advantage

00:16:55and uh uh and nevertheless putin just perseveres as he should as you would expect him uh to do

00:17:04and the situation just continues to deteriorate meanwhile back in washington and back in the

00:17:11european capitals people are acting and talking like what's happening up on the front lines and

00:17:18inside of ukraine is not happening when in fact it is happening i kind of just don't get it i just

00:17:25scratch my head every day and say what are these people thinking well i think you've touched on can

00:17:30just quickly very quickly say i think that's a very important point and i think that may answer

00:17:34some of the questions because some of the points you've raised in that i don't think until very

00:17:40recently until the last few weeks the consensus view in europe and even in the united states and even

00:17:52within donald trump's own team was to understand how bad ukraine's position is and also how strong

00:18:03russia is this i think that this has been a fundamental problem right the way through right

00:18:08going all the way back to the start of this conflict in february 2022 i think there's been a

00:18:14consistent under estimation of the russian position russia is assumed to be significantly weaker than it really is

00:18:26significantly weaker economically significantly weaker in terms of the international support it can draw upon

00:18:34weaker of course on the battlefields as well and i think that this has clouded judgments to a very dangerous degree

00:18:44i interrupted and i shouldn't do that and i apologize especially to glenn no i just well

00:18:50i think maybe i might have an answer and part of the reason of obviously is that the russians demands

00:18:56that they are huge and you know they're so difficult for not just for selensky but for

00:19:02the europeans to accept this this also represents a very you know humiliating peace

00:19:07peace it's also i think quite rightly seen as possibly being destabilizing by changing so

00:19:14much territory as a result of a war and again the europeans see this as a

00:19:20end of the post cold war era this would mean the end of the collective hegemony this would

00:19:26you know put nato in a very weakened position you know some fear nato could fall apart europe could

00:19:34fragment i mean and also i agree of course with what you said alexander's wall that this huge propaganda

00:19:41you know we've been telling ourselves the russians are fighting with shovels and you know pillaging

00:19:46washing machines stealing toilets and uh and uh yeah that they're so weak so it's very difficult to

00:19:52turn this propaganda around i mean some places here for example some people still saying that ukraine

00:19:58is winning i was only this week in one of the newspapers called propagandist because i said that

00:20:05ukraine is taking higher casualties than russia so there's there's a complete denial and uh but

00:20:10i think that the main problem uh of all is uh of trump and the others who was negotiating with the

00:20:17russians they fail to appreciate why the russians concerns sorry why the russian demands are so

00:20:22incredibly high why they want you know neutrality the territory and those foreign soldiers is because the

00:20:30main fear of the russians uh which dominates their thinking is the fear that the that the war will

00:20:36simply restart they spent more than three years now not just defeating hundreds of thousands strong

00:20:44ukrainian army but they also defeated the nato the you know to bled out all of their uh weapon depot i

00:20:52mean this was not an easy task and they suffered greatly they've lost tens of thousands of men

00:20:56men so the fear of course is that this will be as we've spoken about another minsk agreement the

00:21:03that they seem we're simply gonna ask for a do-over so give us some time the europeans are saying very

00:21:09openly we need to ramp up our industrial production provide more weapons more drones and then

00:21:16send it all to ukraine and you know european leaders are saying openly we might have to accept

00:21:21the temporary loss of territories but we can get them back later so we were talking about another

00:21:27minsk agreement so again a do-over we lost the war so let's fight again another day the russians aren't

00:21:33going to do this they after more than three years they defeated ukraine and collect the west they want

00:21:38a permanent end to this and if you want a permanent end you need that neutrality you make you need those

00:21:44territories make sure that you know this can't be used against russia in the future you don't want any

00:21:49NATO troops there and ideally you want to reduce the size of the ukrainian army as well so this can

00:21:54never happen again so and yes i think this is the main issue always now with russia they don't trust

00:22:01the the west and you know i can understand this because we're quite openly plotting a do-over of this

00:22:07war so why why would they trust it but the problem here glenn is that these comments about the state of

00:22:15the war are and i'm choosing my words carefully here are positively delusional uh there was a piece in

00:22:22russi uh which is a pro-war pro-western uh journal it's not like uh this is a sort of pro-russian journal

00:22:33but russi had a piece in february of this year where they said there are 580 000 580 000 uh operational

00:22:45russian troops in ukraine and it said at the same time the size of the security forces in uh ukraine

00:22:54the ukrainian security forces is about 800 000 and then it said nevertheless of that 800 000

00:23:03less than 25 percent are combat troops are involved in the fight the rest are just security forces

00:23:12that are policing uh territory in ukraine they're not doing the fighting so let's assume that that

00:23:19number is 20 percent okay 20 percent of that 80 800 000 are actually uh you know operational combat forces

00:23:28uh that 20 percent of 800 000 is 160 000 that means you basically have 160 000 people

00:23:38who are involved in the fight right up against 580 000 russians just think about that 160 000 versus

00:23:47580 000 that's basically about a four to one advantage in the russians favor now let's assume

00:23:55that i'm inflating the russian number a bit and not giving the ukrainians quite enough credit then

00:24:02the overall number is three to one the overall number is three to one holy mackerel that is a huge

00:24:09advantage then the russi piece goes on to say that at certain points along the front the russians enjoy

00:24:17a six to one advantage and at other points they enjoy a two to one advantage and furthermore there

00:24:25are all sorts of pieces that have appeared recently that say there are gaps in the front line that the

00:24:32ukrainians are not defending at all because you want to understand that when you talk about force

00:24:38ratios you have to talk about two different ratios one is the ratio of forces on one side to the other

00:24:45side but then the other ratio is what's called the force to space ratio in other words you have enough

00:24:52forces to cover the entire front line and it's quite clear that with those roughly 160 000 troops that

00:25:01the ukrainians have that they can't cover the entire front line and they're using drones according to

00:25:09some of these articles to fill those gaps in the front line and then where they don't have drones and

00:25:16where they do have troops again the russi piece says that they're outnumbered sometimes six to one

00:25:21sometimes two to one now all these people talked about mobilizing ukrainian troops to improve those

00:25:29ratios it's quite clear from almost everything you read that the mobilization schemes inside of ukraine

00:25:37are not working if anybody is mobilizing more and more troops it's the russians who are actually doing

00:25:44a great job of mobilizing troops on a monthly and a yearly basis it's the ukrainians who are in deep

00:25:50trouble so you have this situation where when you look at the raw numbers as reported by russi right in

00:25:58february of this year the ukrainians are in what i would call a hopeless situation and there's no way

00:26:06of improving it and indeed this gets back to the point i made a few minutes ago uh the biden pipeline

00:26:12is going to end at some point trump is not going to create a new pipeline and what that tells you

00:26:19is that the ukrainians are even in more trouble to take this a step further we haven't even talked about

00:26:25what you know these smart bombs these glide bombs that the ukrainians are being hit with on a daily

00:26:33basis are doing to infrastructure and to troops uh and ukrainians have no glide bombs of their own

00:26:41and in terms of the drone war it's quite clear that in terms of quantity and quality it shifted in the

00:26:47russians favor uh so i think when you add all these things up you just sort of say to yourself what are these

00:26:53people smoking who are saying that you know ukraine has uh created a stalemate and if we just back them

00:27:00we can shift the situation in the ukrainians favor this is it's just hard to believe we have been

00:27:09arguing these points for years we've been making these points about you know the ultimate imbalance

00:27:16that exists that exists in this war is such that for the russians to win what they have to do

00:27:23is manage their resources efficiently and that is essentially what they're now what they have now

00:27:31achieved i mean it hasn't been true um throughout these three years but it is true now um there's been

00:27:40three years of denial about this in the west i mean i've been reading you know we've all read

00:27:48these articles about how the ukrainians you know how much more nimble and effective and successful they

00:27:54are how the russians are incompetent how they don't know how to conduct combined arms all of these things

00:28:00that we've been reading all these years and i i think that inevitably and disastrously it is that this

00:28:09constant hammering of this story has meant that it's taken a very very long time it's become very

00:28:16very difficult for some people today to accept the truth and certainly leaders in europe are struggling

00:28:24to accept the truth and i think leaders in the united states are as well now in europe there is another

00:28:31factor and this is a difficult one to explain perhaps to americans but i think that does exist within

00:28:37many european minds still a belief that if the united states decides to exert itself it decides to use

00:28:49its power um they never say exactly in what way but in some form that somehow its power is so much greater

00:28:58than russia's that it can somehow change the whole situation on the battlefronts and you do find that

00:29:04in the european media quite a lot so they reduce it to a question of political will in the united

00:29:12states as opposed to russian capabilities the united states has immense power but it cannot be strong

00:29:21in the way that these people would want it to be in every place at all times but it is very difficult to

00:29:31argue this with some people and here i should say i've tried yeah i would note just very quickly that

00:29:40despite the great power of the united states we lost in afghanistan despite the great power of the united

00:29:48states we could not defeat the houthis and when i was young despite the great power of the united states

00:29:55we lost in vietnam and we made a huge commitment to try to win but we lost and i think the basic

00:30:02problem here alexander is that many people in the west do not understand the limits of military power

00:30:08they think that because the united states has a big stake all it has to do is demonstrate the will

00:30:14to use that stake and get its way sometimes that works but a lot of time it doesn't work as anybody who's

00:30:21studied international politics figures out pretty quickly but you have a lot of people in the west

00:30:27who just don't seem to get that and the end result is disastrous i think the reason why it's also

00:30:34important to hold on to this narrative that the ukraine can win is because otherwise what is the point of

00:30:40this i you know if you try to bring up the topic of you know you know weapons aren't really the solution

00:30:47which of course goes against the weapons are the path to peace slogan of nato then one has to ask

00:30:53the question what are we doing why are we still sending weapons if we can't win then the alternative

00:30:58is uh well we're sending weapons so ukraine can lose slower so it can have more deaths and more

00:31:05destruction of terror of its infrastructure and more territorial losses so um and also ending up then

00:31:11with a worse peace agreement so it's i think it's a bit locked in because once once you give up on

00:31:18ukraine is winning all logic dictates that we have to find a peace with russia now and i don't think

00:31:24anyone in europe can accept this because we've been telling ourselves now for so many years that you know

00:31:29putin is hitler and once they've taken you know ukraine they will go on and take poland because you know

00:31:36they want the soviet union back or something along those lines so i think now they're kind of leaning

00:31:41into a strategy now we have to send more weapons but the key objective is to exhaust the russians

00:31:47weaken them but i think towards this end they're actually alienating the ukrainians as well because

00:31:52if the only objective now is to weaken and exhaust the russians and using ukrainians towards this end

00:31:58without you know without offering ukraine anything except uh yeah more death and losing slower uh what

00:32:07are the ukrainians going to say and we already know what they're going to say the former presidential

00:32:11candidate julia tymoshenko she was supported by the west by the way when she ran against yanukovych

00:32:18she's pro-western and still she you know rack reacted with uh yeah disgust when she heard

00:32:24the uh the german intelligence chief say well we need five more years you know so we can buy

00:32:30ourselves some time we can exhaust the russians just you know effectively throw more ukrainians at

00:32:35this and they were you know we'll weaken the russians a bit we'll buy ourselves some time

00:32:40so they kind of see that they are mere yeah instruments of of nato and uh you know selensky's

00:32:47former advisor olexey arestovich has been saying the same thing they won't let us have a piece you know

00:32:52they ukrainians aren't worth anything we are you know free soldiers for for the western power so

00:32:59but um but that's why i think they have to stick to this idea we we can win otherwise what else is

00:33:06there then it's just a very cynical exploitation of ukrainians and uh yeah so i think the delusion

00:33:13is absolutely necessary well alternatively one could negotiate but uh i don't think the europeans

00:33:20have any political willingness to do so but the part the problem is glenn when the west continues to

00:33:29ramp up the pressure on the russians you incentivize the russians to take even more territory and more

00:33:37be more ruthless in their dealings with ukraine uh and uh so i i think what's happening here is that

00:33:44putin understands that the west is out to destroy russia that's basically what you're saying the

00:33:50west wants to wear the russians down to where they have to make major concessions and they're greatly

00:33:56weakened if you're playing putin's hand you're not going to let that happen and the best way to not

00:34:01let that happen is to really clobber ukraine and make sure that that remnant state that's left over

00:34:08is as dysfunctional as can be uh and that you also want to prepare yourself for the long term you can

00:34:15see the russians preparing themselves for future conflicts with europe because they understand the

00:34:20europeans and the west more generally are just not going to quit they're going to continue to do

00:34:25everything they can for the foreseeable future to damage russia i believe this is going to end up

00:34:32having catastrophic consequences i agree just a few things to say firstly going back to your point

00:34:39john about people not looking at the military history and the military realities i think if we're

00:34:45talking about europe it's very difficult again to for americans perhaps to appreciate what profoundly

00:34:53civilian societies we have become now there's very very little very very few people in positions

00:35:02of political authority who have any background in military matters at all you do find people in the

00:35:10united states still who have connections with the military who are in government who are in congress

00:35:18who help make decisions who do those things they may not be by the way always people i agree with

00:35:24or you know very often i find them completely wrong about many things but they do have that sense of

00:35:30understanding of war and what it is and perhaps some sense of its limits in europe we just don't have

00:35:37that um the labor cabinet in which i know in london there is no one with any kind of military background nor is

00:35:45there in germany where the government is completely civilian nor i believe is it is it even in france where

00:35:53perhaps they have more of a military tradition than they do in germany nowadays so i think that that

00:35:59plays a certain role they just don't have that feel when you talk about the limits of military power

00:36:08they just don't have the feel for it they assume that the united states is so powerful russia is so much

00:36:15less powerful that they they struggle to think beyond that now the other thing which i wanted to say and

00:36:23this is now changing topics totally um and it goes back to people getting this completely wrong

00:36:32the europeans who say let us keep the war going for five more years sacrificing lots and lots of ukrainians

00:36:42to weaken the russians it is not just a cynical and immoral thing to say it is wrong the reality of the

00:36:53last three years is that russia has become militarily much stronger is a much more powerful military power

00:37:02today than it was three years ago we in europe on the contrary have become much weaker the british army

00:37:12is without self-propelled howitzers germany is short of tanks italy has no more air defense interceptors

00:37:21the military balance the longer the war continues in europe is shifting further and further in favor of

00:37:31the russians the russians the trouble is people never talk about these things and this is another

00:37:36problem and it's perhaps one that glenn has written about very very well which is that when you absolutely

00:37:43go out of your way to forbid any real debate about these things say that people who say that you know

00:37:53russia might actually have a point in some of the things that it's doing you might not fully agree with

00:37:57them but they might have a point or that the russians are not actually losing the war they're actually

00:38:02winning the war or that their economy is rather more sophisticated than people imagined it to be

00:38:08and more resilient in consequence you get your head sawn off you get you know twitter mobs unleashed

00:38:15on you you get pushed off the mainstream media if you've ever been on mainstream media you have all of that

00:38:21and in that kind of situation these points that we are making on these programs don't get aired and they

00:38:31don't get discussed and bad points go unchallenged and i think that's played a massive role in create

00:38:38bringing us to the point which we are in today yeah sometimes i think we don't live in a fact-based

00:38:47world uh i think we live in a world where people create their own reality and when you're dealing

00:38:55in with people in that kind of world it's almost impossible to have a rational legal debate

00:39:02because facts don't seem to matter

00:39:07and i think that's where we are and as you say alexander it has had catastrophic consequences

00:39:12we can test that hypothesis though that the facts don't matter because if you go back to 2014

00:39:21after the coup you saw there quite a lot of commentaries in the united states it's quite

00:39:26common to refer to it as a coup it was quite common for many of course

00:39:33john leading some of the charge arguing that the western countries had sparked or started this crisis

00:39:40by toppling the government and there was this recognition that yeah we're not innocent in this

00:39:45but these arguments today if you would try to make them in europe what was what we were allowed to say

00:39:52only a decade ago they're not allowed to be said anymore i mean across europe you see you know

00:39:58prime ministers presidents foreign ministers statements they made back in 2014 and 15 if they would say these

00:40:05things today they would be lynched and this is unacceptable so i do think that the narrative

00:40:10control which has been imposed is a huge problem because uh well again this is what was the argument

00:40:18of uh walter litman if you if you tell all the public you convince them that this is a struggle of

00:40:24good versus evil if you don't accept any dissent uh you can't a workable peace can't be achieved

00:40:30uh simply because uh you can't make a compromise with evil and you end up with only war um but i

00:40:38thought after all of trump's threats i thought it was interesting that uh um yeah former president uh

00:40:45dmitry medvedev came out and more or less talked about you know the only bad thing that's going to

00:40:50happen is a possible world war three it does appear to me that not just in rhetoric but overall that

00:40:58the russians are starting to lose a bit patience and then especially with the europeans and as on the

00:41:05other side um ukraine and nato loses the war the proxy war at least in ukraine there's a growing

00:41:13desperation so the the europeans now seem much more reckless there you know the german chancellor

00:41:20threatening now to start you know launching terrorist missiles into russia the russians are losing their

00:41:26patience completely are we seeing a pathway or possibility for war here because i mean direct

00:41:32war because this is uh starting to look like it's getting a bit out of control

00:41:40very tricky issue uh i mean you want to think about what's going to happen once it's really clear that

00:41:49ukraine is ukraine is going to lose this is going to be a devastating defeat for the west because we

00:41:56have been continually upping the ante over the past year or so as the war has gone south so uh our

00:42:04reputation the west's reputation is really at stake here uh it will be a devastating blow uh when it

00:42:14becomes clear that russia has won this war and the question is what will we then do and my view is that

00:42:24you're going to have poisonous relations between russia and the west for as far as the eye can see

00:42:29you're going to have a frozen conflict and superimposed on top of that frozen conflict there

00:42:35are a number of flashpoints i've talked about this before i think the arctic the baltic sea

00:42:42uh kaliningrad belarus moldova and black and the black sea are our potential flashpoints in addition

00:42:49to the fact you're going to have a cold peace between uh ukraine and russia uh on uh front line

00:42:57inside of ukraine and add to that the poisonous relations between the west and the russians and the

00:43:05west is going to go to great lengths to undermine russia and the russians will go to great lengths to cause

00:43:10trouble in the west to cause trouble in the transatlantic alliance uh to cause trouble in the rump state that

00:43:18is ukraine uh and this is what the world i think is going to look like i hope i'm wrong but i think this

00:43:25is what you're going to see in greater europe and uh i don't think that you know that the west will go to

00:43:34war to prevent russia from winning in ukraine i don't think that's going to happen but i think that

00:43:42you're going to have this um intensely hostile relationship with these various flashpoints

00:43:48where the potential for war is going to be ever present i would not be surprised if you had a war over

00:43:53the arctic involving you know nato countries on one side and the russians and maybe even the chinese

00:43:59on the other side i mean the potential for trouble is just very great here so that's sort of how i see

00:44:06it going i well i would say a few things firstly i mean if we're talking about world war three

00:44:12it can only happen if the united states becomes involved in some way if the united states

00:44:18states um says that it is not going to become drawn into a military confrontation with russia

00:44:25and that seems to be so far a position that as far as i can tell is holding in in the united states

00:44:33then world war three as such cannot happen if we're talking about europe there was a great debate which

00:44:41was launched by macron last year and it has you know continued in one form or another ever since

00:44:49about sending european troops to ukraine when he first floated it last year it was about reinforcing

00:44:55the ukrainians and releasing ukrainian troops so that they could fight on the front lines then he talked

00:45:01about sending them as peacemakers then it was going to be as a reinsurance force then the british

00:45:07uh wanted to join in and there were basically no takers i mean across the rest of europe this has not

00:45:15gone down well at all and i read in the financial times um a comment from a european official who said

00:45:23that this idea is now dead so there is no enthusiasm even at official levels to take on the russians

00:45:31and if you're talking about the mood of the wider population there's even less enthusiasm amongst them

00:45:38to take on the russians they may be very misinformed about many things about the war

00:45:43but they do not want to go into a situation of war with the russians so going back to glenn's question

00:45:49i don't think we are going to end up in a outright world war three scenario but the very bitter angry

00:46:01cold war scenario which is worse than a cold war that john set out i'm afraid i can absolutely see

00:46:09i mean not a cold war in the way that the cold war played out the cold war that we remember but more

00:46:16like a korean type situation where you have two absolutely hostile blocks which are not just hostile

00:46:24but loathe each other and which have no real points of consensus or agreement or even contact

00:46:32with each other throughout the cold war there were always people from you know governments in the west

00:46:38going to moscow khrushchev brezhnev were coming to the west visiting berlin london whatever paris

00:46:44wherever i i don't think we will see anything like that um in the kind of scenario that quite plausibly

00:46:52could work out with constant flashpoints like one that we're seeing play out now in the baltic

00:46:58where the russians believe that and i was in st petersburg um last week and i heard people talking

00:47:05about this uh but the russians believe that um western navies european navies are intent on seizing

00:47:15russian tankers or tankers of third countries that trade with russia on the high seas and they're

00:47:22talking up talking of setting up naval convoys and protecting their merchant ships from interception

00:47:29by western navies in that kind of way so that kind of constant ugly confrontation i'm afraid i can

00:47:37absolutely see it to a certain extent it is already happening now and it's potentially going to get much

00:47:44worse um and unless there is some major diplomatic effort made to reverse it which would have to come

00:47:54from us by the way um it would have to come from the europeans uh or the americans unless there is

00:48:01some major diplomatic effort to reverse it the reason it would have to come from us is because we are the

00:48:07continuously escalatory party i i can very easily see the kind of scenario that john has described

00:48:17actually taking shape and that would be a disaster for europe and um one which as a european um i i look

00:48:28upon with extreme foreboding and that's well i've i've been more careful in the choice of words i could

00:48:36use stronger words i guess my my my final question or topic then is um the direction of trump because i think

00:48:47everyone more or less recognizes that uh selensky the europeans and the russians they more or less

00:48:52locked themselves into a set position of course the ukraine could be a bit of a wild card if if as

00:49:00there's a lot of opposition being currently building up against selensky you know society is not stable but

00:49:08but overall the big wild card here appears to be the united states with trump that is on one hand

00:49:14uh trump keeps reassuring everyone that this is not america's war and you know we we will walk away

00:49:21from this um on the other hand he's also having increasingly aggressive rhetoric towards the russians

00:49:29so it seems he can swing both ways on this uh my instinct tells me that the rhetoric is just his

00:49:35negotiation tactics and uh again when the weapons are gone as john said i find it yeah less likely that he

00:49:42will you know go to congress ask for more weapons and uh yeah that this is uh something that would

00:49:50split his base i guess too much so but um yeah i'm not sure if you you see it the same way or we'll just

00:49:57trump let this war be lost and uh yes say you know i did my best i got our money back on the minerals deal

00:50:05and uh this is not our war it's not our problem and just you know see where the pieces fall

00:50:10well i have a question for you glenn what can trump do i mean what what what can he do once the

00:50:20ukrainians lose or once it's manifestly apparent even to the hardliners in the west that ukraine is

00:50:29doomed what what can trump do i don't think anything even marco rubio which is a bit of a hawk was

00:50:37asked you know why don't you join in on more you know with the europeans join in more sanctions and

00:50:41so more or less you know what what for what are the sanctions can we can we do to do at this time

00:50:48they're not going to work they're going to harm our interest and uh and uh again there's no purpose

00:50:55and then after that it's not possible to speak with the russians anymore so even the sanctions part i

00:51:00think they're getting yeah not really interested in and of course the weapons there are not that many

00:51:05weapons left and if they have weapons they rather send it to middle east and ideally for the pivot to

00:51:10asia so i don't so again if russia assesses the threats you know usually you look at the intentions

00:51:16and capabilities their capabilities aren't there and also the intentions are also strong indicator that

00:51:22america doesn't want to go down this route so no i i'm leaning towards america pulling away

00:51:28we have no arrows in the quiver i mean that's really what's going on here what don't we what

00:51:34is trump going to do uh it's just hard to see i mean is he going to go back to being joe biden number

00:51:41two it joe biden number one failed joe biden number two is not going to work either

00:51:51i'm going to suggest what trump is probably going to try to do he's going to try to do everything he

00:51:56possibly can to make sure that when the debacle happens people don't blame him for it that that

00:52:03is probably going to be his priority um over the next two three years i was what he's constantly

00:52:10talking about he harps on the fact that this isn't his war is joe biden's war it's nothing to do with him

00:52:16so it all if it all goes terrible then don't blame me i tried to end it i couldn't do it because

00:52:24zelensky's unreasonable and putin is crazy um but i did everything i possibly could and um you know

00:52:31it didn't work out but it wasn't my fault i didn't start it if i had been there it wouldn't

00:52:37have started in the first place um i still think people will blame him by the way whatever he says

00:52:44i mean he'll be the person there and i don't think he can shuffle it shuffle away from it um

00:52:50um that's i'm afraid the way the cards have fallen well just on a quick note i was i've been

00:52:56thinking about that mineral deal and i think that the that zelensky and europeans played this wrong

00:53:01because i think the main idea was you know get the americans locked into this mineral deal then uh

00:53:06the u.s will have a strategic interest or we'll see its interest being more aligned with the ukraine

00:53:12and this would be what would commit uh trump to getting reengaged in this war however i think it's

00:53:19quite opposite i think now trump effectively has a way out he now can claim victory you know

00:53:27biden started this the european lost the war i got our money back so now we can get out i mean this

00:53:33makes it much easier to to walk away i think so but again uh i might be too cynical i i tend to side

00:53:42more with alexander than you glenn on that one i i think trump is going to have this one dumped in his

00:53:48lab um but i want to make one additional point you know we focused laser-like on ukraine here but you

00:53:55want to remember that trump has a handful of different problems that he has to deal with

00:54:00iran is one and gaza is the other and if he cuts a deal on iran uh which allows iran to keep its

00:54:11nuclear enrichment capability uh which appears to be the case it's the only way he can cut a deal on iran

00:54:19and he seems to indicate that he's going to get a deal on iran he's going to take a tremendous amount

00:54:25of heat for that and that's going to limit his maneuver room in gaza i actually believe the

00:54:32reason that he is allowing the genocide to go on and he's not playing hardball with the israelis at

00:54:38least in public on the genocide is in large part because he's interested in getting a deal on iran

00:54:45and he understands he can't take the israelis on over both iran and over gaza and then if you sort of

00:54:52broaden um the agenda to bring in the russians uh if he makes concessions on iran and he gets hammered

00:55:02for that that will limit what he can do uh on uh on ukraine it will give the hawks more power against

00:55:12him on ukraine uh for him to cut a deal with putin on ukraine or to go really soft on ukraine at the

00:55:20same time uh he cuts a deal on iran uh it will be very difficult for him he'll pay a significant

00:55:27price and then on top of all this you want to remember that things have been quiet in east asia

00:55:32for a long time which is certainly all for the good and i don't want that to change but one could imagine

00:55:40a conflict breaking out in east asia where trump has to deal not only with ukraine iran and gaza but has

00:55:48to deal with east asia as well and then you throw in things like the tariffs and so forth and so on

00:55:55this is a guy who has a lot of balls in the air and i think what happens with regard to ukraine

00:56:00depends to some extent maybe a large extent uh on what's happening with those other balls as well

00:56:08and i think we don't want to lose uh sight of the fact that he has to be a master juggler to pull all

00:56:15of this off and if anything he's proved that he's the anti-master juggler uh in his first few months

00:56:23in office yeah i would agree with that actually completely um i i think that he's not got a very

00:56:34strong position to broker any kind of deal with putin and i think that i think he's i think he knows it

00:56:44i think that if he does try and move in that direction there's already supposedly 81 senators

00:56:51backing a massive sanctions package i don't know how real that is but i think it's a message to trump

00:56:58in effect it's a message to trump whether intentionally or otherwise don't do a deal with

00:57:05putin which we don't like i think that's what these people are saying to him and i think that's going to

00:57:10inevitably affect um what he could do with ukraine i think i have to say this i mean it's all very

00:57:16dark again what we're saying about the situation it's difficult to be otherwise there's so many

00:57:22opportunities to bring this thing to a conclusion a status at least a maybe not a satisfactory

00:57:30conclusion but at least a workable conclusion have been thrown away and the the level of failure

00:57:41that we face today as a result of that inability to seize opportunities that existed in a part in the

00:57:52past the minsk agreement for example being one of them to resolve this conflict um i i think that

00:57:59we're going to be writing about this and people are going to be talking and debating about this

00:58:04for years and decades and forever and i'm going to say this i think that this is not going to be

00:58:10good for russia at all if it finds itself in this kind of korean type frozen confrontation in europe

00:58:18and it's going to be an absolute disaster for europe and i think we're going to see all sorts of

00:58:24other parts of other parts of the world move forward and we are going to be stuck in europe

00:58:29facing off each up against each other in this way um and i you know without any obvious way out so

00:58:39we really have screwed up and we can blame the americans all we like but this is a european problem

00:58:47ultimately ukraine is in europe we should have been the ones to deal with it and if the americans

00:58:55have some bad ideas at various times about you know backing um various people in ukraine and not

00:59:02moving forward with the misc agreement we should have told them no um you know this is our continent

00:59:07we have to have peace we need peace with the russians and um whatever your plans or strategies might be

00:59:16we can't afford we can't risk playing along with them and we did well i would remind you alexander

00:59:26angela merkel uh and nicholas sarkozy at uh the famous bucharest nato summit 2008 did recognize that

00:59:36bringing ukraine into nato was a a foolish idea and did oppose the americans initially but the problem

00:59:43is they didn't stick to their guns but i want to make one other point just to sort of reinforce

00:59:48what you said alexander you said that you thought that trump recognized that uh he didn't have many

00:59:56options that uh the situation was going to hell in a handbasket in ukraine and i think you're right

01:00:02and i would say that i have watched trump's rhetoric over the past few days really heat up

01:00:10and i watched him say uh quite uh terrible things about putin you know to call putin crazy does not

01:00:19make much sense and to threaten that he's going to do this and that doesn't make much sense and so i

01:00:24say to myself why is he doing this i think he's doing it because he's deeply frustrated and he

01:00:30understands he has no cards to play that putin is in the driver's seat here and my experience over

01:00:39many years of dealing with adversaries is that when they when they have no cards to play they usually up

01:00:48the rhetoric and start screaming at you and calling you names and so forth and so on so i think one

01:00:54could make an argument that what you see going on with trump over the past few days with regard to his

01:01:00rhetoric is really desperation yeah i agree actually well that was always my concern with trump because

01:01:08again he was riding a you know pretty amazing wave this is one of the greatest comeback stories in

01:01:15american history i mean that election was really spectacular and you know but he he oversold his

01:01:22presidency of it you know he was going to reshape the world in america's uh you know favor and as

01:01:27you saw now with the economic war against china it's not working out so you need kind of need an out how

01:01:33are you going to sell this to to the public and then of course the iran thing he ripped apart the deal

01:01:39now they're going to get a much better deal i was in iran three weeks ago and you know met

01:01:44military commanders diplomats visited the nuclear facilities i i can say one thing with a hundred

01:01:50percent certainty none of the things that being asked for in terms of dismantling the civilian

01:01:54nuclear program limiting ballistic missile range you know abandoning the partnership and what they

01:02:01refer to as the resistance none of these things are going to happen it's just so how are you going

01:02:06to yeah john said how are you going to sell this to the public he's going to have to more or less go

01:02:10back to the jcpoa and you know this is going to be it's not great to you know for for a leader who's

01:02:18you know was riding this high and uh you know who's you know wrote the art of the deal and now of course

01:02:24with the russians as well realizing that you don't have much leverage and at the end of the day you have

01:02:29to give the russians what they want so it's not uh he's in a very hard spot and when people are

01:02:35humiliated and desperate and frustrated they often do reckless things so and given that trump is a bit

01:02:43often impulsive uh i think as a wild card is uh he can be a source of concern but um

01:02:51you know we were talking about the fact that um uh people in the west don't appreciate the limits of

01:02:58military power i think donald trump's great problem is he doesn't understand the limits of his own

01:03:06capabilities most of us as we get older understand that life is much more complicated than we thought

01:03:13it was when we were young and we're more doubtful about what used to be our instant solutions to every

01:03:21problem but donald trump is one of these people who thinks he's a genius and he can handle any problem

01:03:28he has no sense that uh there are limits to his critical faculties and when i watch him i often

01:03:35think of uh a story that i once heard about henry kissinger i don't know whether it's true somebody

01:03:41said that he kept the sign behind his desk that said god lets men succeed so that he can destroy them

01:03:49and listening to glenn talk about putin and not putin about trump and his great comeback and how he was in

01:03:56the driver's seat and so forth and so on i kept thinking of that uh uh claim or that that that that

01:04:06saying that kissinger purportedly had uh on his wall you know god lets men succeed he succeeded greatly i

01:04:14mean he defied the odds he came back he won a mandate and he was president again uh but one could make a

01:04:23good argument that if you look at the policies he's pursuing and how he is pursuing them he is in the

01:04:29end going to destroy himself politically i i i wouldn't be too surprised i would i think that's quite likely

01:04:36um well there is i think the other trouble with the problem with trump is that he does have a significant

01:04:44amount of knowledge about america itself not perhaps the america of the universities or the you know

01:04:52the academies the institutes the scientists the political system but america you know the american

01:04:59hinterland people there and i think about the world outside america he knows very very little and i don't get the

01:05:11sense that he's actually been very interested in it until fairly recently and in that i have to say

01:05:18um i remember people when i was a child saying exactly that about lyndon johnson that lyndon

01:05:25johnson had a very great understanding of america itself but not of the world beyond and well there it

01:05:32is it's playing out in the same way again lyndon johnson destroyed himself as president it could quite

01:05:38easily turn out that donald trump will do the same to himself also um that's i think all i can say

01:05:46any final thoughts before we wrap this up

01:05:50well it is a grim picture i mean we still have time um in theory if we used it sensibly to come

01:05:58to some kind of understanding with the russians i mean even if we can't accept uh you know their terms

01:06:04i mean we could come to some understanding about how to um contain the damage after they win their

01:06:13war because they are going to win their war and that's the reality of it um but i don't think they

01:06:21want to be catapulted into an indefinite confrontation with us and you know we could go back to the world of

01:06:29confidence building measures and all that kind of thing the rhetoric again in europe speaks so

01:06:36completely against it that i don't i'm afraid think it's going to happen yeah just to add one dimension

01:06:43to that alexander putin is not forever uh and at some point he's going to disappear from the scene and

01:06:50he's going to be replaced by someone who i would imagine is not as uh balanced and as even-handed

01:06:58in his approach to waging this war and dealing with the west uh as putin has been i mean there's

01:07:06a tendency in the west to portray putin is the second coming of adolf hitler uh and say all sorts

01:07:12of terrible things about him but if you actually look at how he's waged the war number one and two if you

01:07:18look at his efforts to have good diplomatic relations both with the west both with the

01:07:24europeans and the united states it just doesn't get much better from a western point of view and i

01:07:32would not be surprised if his replacement whenever that time comes is much more hawkish than he is

01:07:40and much more hostile to the west and therefore makes the likelihood of some serious conflict

01:07:46breaking out greater not less well can i just say to that i was attending last week uh a legal forum

01:07:54in st petersburg and obviously there was politics and things like that discussed there because that's

01:08:00why i was there after all ultimately but the people who i was in contact with were lawyers i mean not

01:08:09military people not the sort of people you would look to uh you would you would look to find hard

01:08:17liners amongst and yet they were all pretty hard line i have to say they were a significantly more

01:08:23hard line in my sense than putin himself was in fact i heard criticisms of the fact that the russian

01:08:31government had been too accommodating with the west on various topics not just ukraine and i saw that

01:08:39they were getting heavy applause whenever they be they were being made sometimes in open discussions

01:08:45and that i think goes exactly to your point we have this assumption that hard line leaders and we see

01:08:51putin as a hard line leader in russia are always replaced by a softer more liberal figures and you know we

01:08:59imagine that's the way it's going to play out i don't get the sense that's going to be the case at all this time

01:09:09well this is a continuous uh thing with putin though and the assumption about him in the west this has been

01:09:13the case now for at least 20 years the the idea that the alternative is some more liberal uh pro-western

01:09:21uh uh yeah precedent but uh again he's uh when when criticism is mounted against uh putin either from

01:09:29the public or from the military it's often that is too soft and uh uh yeah this is a common theme so

01:09:37you know i i remember i wrote an article about it back in 2015 or 16 or we actually used the title

01:09:44something along the line why why putin is the last pro-western alternative of russia you know didn't go

01:09:51down that well but it is very much correct though and i think one should uh yes both of you suggested

01:09:56be a bit concerned about what comes next and perhaps it's in our interest as well to finish

01:10:01this war before putin steps down as opposed to hoping that for example his assassination is going

01:10:06to lead anywhere positive so um anyways uh thank you both for yeah participating is uh fascinating as

01:10:15always so thank you again yeah it was wonderful to be with you too again and i look forward to doing it

01:10:22again again be well thank you too john and thank you

01:10:41you

Russia Won the War 🇷🇺🔥 - John Mearsheimer, Alexander Mercouris & Glenn Diesen | Explained | Forbidden News

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