- 5/23/2025
In an exclusive interview with India Today's Foreign Affairs Editor Geeta Mohan, Congress leader Anand Sharma, who is part of the government's global outreach on Operation Sindoor, emphasised the need to sensitise global leaders about Pakistan's role in terrorism and called for its isolation.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00It is not unprecedented, but yet rare, to have multi-party, all-party delegations go to world capitals to put India's position forward.
00:10I've been joined by a politician, a leader, who has been in many of these multi-party delegations in the past.
00:20And in a very rare moment where you see parties come together, he's a consensus candidate for the Congress when it comes to the all-party delegations.
00:29That are going to the world capitals.
00:32Anand Sharma, thank you so much for joining us, sir.
00:36This is quite interesting that we've had so many to and fro's when it comes to who's going to go from which party.
00:43But you came out as a consensus candidate.
00:46One, the decision to be a part of a multi-party delegation.
00:51And what is it that you aim to achieve?
00:54You see, the decision is, of course, that of the government in finality.
00:59But it was the Congress leadership, both Rahul Gandhi and Congress President Kargei, who had given the names, as has been the standard established practice and norm.
01:11And I thank them.
01:13I thank also the government.
01:15I'm happy that there is a meeting of minds.
01:18We are not going to be, in today's situation, distracted even for a moment, where we are going and it is for what purpose we are going.
01:35That is important.
01:36Therefore, the composition of the delegations, when you said that all party, they have been initiatives in the past, but not on such a large scale.
01:47The leaders of the opposition have been roped in by the government in the past, by successive prime ministers, from Indira Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi, Narsina Raab, even Dr. Mahmoud Singh.
01:58What India needs in this present crisis is a robust bipartisan consensus, which was demonstrated very strongly when India was targeted.
02:14The palgamum terror attack and India's response, because India has been, for decades, a targeted victim of organized terrorism from across the border.
02:31That's from Pakistan, which undoubtedly is the epicenter.
02:35It's not only that it is India which is threatened, yes, directly so, but they are scourged for the world, the terrorism as such.
02:44Whether it's what happens to us, if you look at the list of terror attacks, India has acted, always responded, with firmness and maturity.
02:56And it is time that the world is sensitized, how serious this threat is.
03:02For long, our resolution is pending in the United Nations, for a comprehensive global convention against terrorism.
03:11Perhaps the time has come.
03:12The world has to think.
03:14There cannot be any selective approach in fighting terror.
03:21Perhaps the time has indeed come to even define terrorism there.
03:25But for our audience to know that you were part of a government that battled Pakistan during 2611, as Information and Broadcasting Minister, as Minister of State for External Affairs.
03:42It was an uphill task then.
03:44It is an uphill task now.
03:46Why?
03:47Well, the two situations are different.
03:53That terror attack went on for a while, and citizens of other countries of the world were killed.
04:01Therefore, the media, the televisions of the world, took it to the world capitals.
04:15Naturally, there was an outrage in our country, but a global outrage too.
04:19Here, they chose Behlgar.
04:21This was a different attack, because for the first time, before the world, for us, it was not the first time, because Chiti Singh Pura had happened when the Sikhs were massacred.
04:32That's true.
04:33So, here, they singled out Indian citizens, innocent people, who were holidaying there, young couples, but based on religion, and killed in cold blood.
04:49And that the world must know.
04:53India has still been restrained, I will say, in its response.
04:58The initial response was only targeted to destroy the headquarters of the two terror outfits.
05:07They keep on changing names.
05:10Today, they may say there is a resistance front, but we know who is behind all these three.
05:16They are sheltered, nurtured, protected by Pakistan.
05:22There is a clear signature and footprint.
05:25And that's what made India act militarily too.
05:34But we never went for escalation.
05:37We want to tell the world India stands for peace.
05:40But India will cannot also remain quiet when such attacks take place.
05:49What I would say is important in democracies across the world, there are opinions which political parties and leaders have, like in India too.
06:08But at the same time, when a nation is attacked, India has always stood as one and spoken in one voice, which we did this time too.
06:21Every political party gave unequivocal support to the government's action.
06:30And that message has gone beyond the shores of India, not only to Pakistan, but to the other world capitals too.
06:47That this is how serious India is about, what has been done to their people and their citizens.
06:53I see the composition of the delegations quite diverse.
06:59Clearly, the center wants to project unity and diversity.
07:03But also, with a lot of depth, you come with experience of handling a terror attack as big as 2611.
07:12Hitting out at Bahawalpur, Mureetke, how did that resonate with you?
07:17The fact that these are places you've been talking about time and again.
07:20It was good that it happened. It was time.
07:26We had to deliver a message.
07:28And we are proud of the Indian Armed Forces.
07:30They did so correctly, with precision.
07:33Why is there so much howling about it across the border?
07:37What were they expecting?
07:39That we'll send flowers to those who killed our people.
07:41So, every Indian was at least relieved, not celebrating that, yes, but saluting the Army or the Air Force or Devi that they have acted.
07:59So, when you go with the delegation, what is it that you personally are going to take to convince the international community that it is no longer time for neutrality?
08:12That if there are countries that are standing by Pakistan, it is time that these countries, you're going to very important nations, including South Africa and Egypt, that they need to take a position.
08:25You're right, and that's what we will try to inform the leaders we interact with, engage with about the reality, about what Pakistan's modus operandi has been.
08:51In any case, the world knows it, it's the army which runs or controls Pakistan.
09:00It's democracy is a sham.
09:03And that needs to be exposed.
09:05On one hand, they are going with a begging bowl to the IMF and then spending huge amounts of money only to create terror and killing machines.
09:17So, to sensitize the global leadership, so it's a global outreach, and wherever our delegations are going and where we are going, that will be primarily our objective and our focus.
09:35Because, A, the world gets the information through the media, their own national medias, the reports which filter across the frontiers.
09:48But, what is our view, what is our understanding, what has been our experience, not from one, two, three, four, but dozens of attacks.
10:01So, attack on our parliament, attack on Uddhampur, I refer to Chittisingpura, Uri, Poonch, Pulwama, now Pahalgaam.
10:14How long will this continue?
10:16The world has to reign on Pakistan.
10:18It is important that Pakistan should be isolated and condemned for state sponsor of terror.
10:29Sir, Pakistan is following India's footsteps.
10:32We are sending multi-party delegations.
10:36Pakistani Prime Minister...
10:37Are they sending Imran Khan, who is in jail?
10:40Multi-party delegation would require them.
10:42That's a very important point you made.
10:44So, where is the democracy there?
10:45India has actually raised concerns saying that you're only sending Bilal, your ally.
10:49Where is PTI in a multi-party delegation?
10:52You see, Pakistan, in any case, they can try and copy India.
10:58But India is the largest democracy on the planet.
11:01It's a constitutional democracy.
11:04It's a rule-based and rule-governed country.
11:06There cannot be any comparison.
11:09Let them try.
11:10That is their job.
11:11But what we have to do collectively as a nation is to not only inform and sensitize, as I said,
11:23but to mobilize the global opinion against terrorism and for peace.
11:29You've said you're going with absolute focus.
11:32But I have to ask you this.
11:34A lot of domestic politics at play.
11:36Do you think that will impact outcome of your meetings abroad?
11:41They must surely be watching what's happening in India when it comes to questions being raised,
11:47questions being posed to the government, which opposition should be doing, but...
11:52Which democracy does not have dialogue, questions and debate.
11:58That's part of democracy.
11:59Questions are always asked and the onus is always on the government of the day to respond to those questions.
12:09And we have, as I mentioned, being a multi-party parliamentary democracy,
12:15parliament would be the right forum.
12:18Not only the standing committees of the parliament, which have been informed, so I'm told,
12:24But the parliament as a whole eventually will discuss it.
12:30So there's no big issue or deal.
12:34People understand that what does not happen in America itself, or in Germany, or in England,
12:42if there are no questions and no discussion, that only happens in authoritarian or dictatorship countries.
12:48Interesting.
12:49When you were in power, you were in government, you had more support coming in from America,
12:56obviously because Americans had died in 26-11.
12:59We don't see that kind of support coming in from D.C. this time around.
13:04Has Trump changed the geopolitics of this region where Pakistan and India seem to be hyphenated again?
13:13Well, that hyphenation India cannot accept.
13:17And since you asked about President Trump, it's not about this region.
13:23He's disrupted and upturned the global order, which is a very serious issue.
13:30Because multilateralism is under siege and under grave threat.
13:35That's where America has to wake up.
13:37The entire world has to wake up.
13:39President Trump, being the leader of the most powerful country, has a greater responsibility.
13:48At the same time, India is a sovereign and proud nation.
13:53We have to uphold and protect our supreme national interest.
13:58And one thing, to my mind, is very clear, and that should be the position India cannot be dictated to.
14:07That's a very important message.
14:09Resonates well with what the government has also been saying.
14:13But, sir, I have to go back to the question I asked you earlier.
14:17If Pakistan manages to secure high-level meetings in Washington, D.C., where will that leave India?
14:24Well, that's for Washington, D.C. to decide.
14:28American leadership.
14:29I'm not saying we don't decide their diary and whom they meet.
14:35But we have a good relationship, a strategic partnership of enormous importance with America.
14:42And I'm sure that America also is conscious of that.
14:46It's not only economic partnership, a strategic partnership, the kind of exchange that we have had.
14:53The very fact that in 2008, we reached, after very painstaking negotiations, a historic breakthrough in the nuclear agreement,
15:06where India was reintegrated and accepted with respect in the global mainstream for nuclear cooperation.
15:14There's high technology transfers, joint initiatives being taken, so America will remain conscious of that, that what India is.
15:25And you referred also to some other countries, and what happened in 2008.
15:31Yes, many of the P5 countries stood up.
15:35And I remember there was a meeting in Paris, the 14th of December 2008, after the attack.
15:50After 2016-11.
15:51And there was foreign ministers of all major countries, the president there, all P5 countries, of course, included.
16:01And there was tremendous support for India.
16:04We explained our position, but we had to.
16:06There was a strong Pakistani delegation also present there.
16:13And that was a special moment to expose them before the world.
16:20And which we did.
16:23But sir, today, things have changed, drastically so.
16:28Challenges are many.
16:30Let's talk about the countries you're going to.
16:32Egypt, Qatar, Ethiopia, and South Africa.
16:35We will talk about South Africa in a different context as well.
16:38But Qatar, the Gulf nations, and how they have come out seeking de-escalation, being very neutral.
16:46Some of them in the OIC have also, in the past, sided with Pakistan on issues of Kashmir.
16:53Is it going to be difficult?
16:55Well, there have always been some countries which are identified.
16:58There are some countries which are Pakistan backers or allies, like Turkey.
17:03We've known that.
17:04But at the same time, there are many countries which understand India's position.
17:10Yes.
17:10And they are not at all taking a strident position against India.
17:16Even in the case of this terror attack, they have condemned.
17:20Yes.
17:20To say de-escalation, fine.
17:26That is not an offensive word to me.
17:29Nobody is saying we are not a warmongering country too.
17:33We didn't impose the situation.
17:35We did not invite.
17:38We were compelled.
17:39We were forced.
17:39We were left with no option.
17:40So, and from day one, Indian armed forces also have been saying, I remember the first press conference, to the foreign secretary of the DGMO, that is non-escalatory.
17:57So, the escalation came from Pakistan's side, which had to be responded to, which was responded to very firmly, that I must say.
18:06As somebody who's been a part of the ministry, there are so many delegations going to such important nations.
18:14But I have to ask you about our neighborhood.
18:17The fact that there's no delegation going to the neighborhood, is that a miss?
18:20Is that something that the government should look at and focus on?
18:24You see, well, that's a very good question.
18:28I'm sure that we have friendly countries in the neighborhood.
18:33And neighborhood will get adequately informed, surely.
18:40It's not a question of sending a delegation.
18:43But we have very able high commissioners and ambassadors.
18:49And if there is need, it's for the government to take the call to send any envoy, which the prime ministers in the past have done.
18:56There are always channels open.
18:58India has done so in the past.
19:03And if there are complexities, we know what has happened in Bangladesh.
19:09Even if we send someone, it's not going to change their attitude.
19:15But the others do understand us.
19:22It's the larger world opinion that has to back India.
19:26I do not say there are countries here in the region in our extended neighborhood.
19:31I'm not talking only of South Asia, who understand India very much and who support India.
19:38You refer to the OIC in the recent OIC meeting.
19:41The host country itself, the Indonesia, and many other countries,
19:46thwarted the moves of Turkey and others to have any strong resolution critical of India.
19:53So this has happened after the military conflict and the recent developments.
20:02It happened last week or a few days ago.
20:04Before I move to a very important subject that you have focused all your life on,
20:10just one question on Asim Munir.
20:12A general in uniform making divisive comments for the first time,
20:16Jay Shankar in Netherlands said and connected his comments,
20:19Asim Munir's divisive Hindu-Muslim comments to the Pahalgam terror attack.
20:24And now he's self-appointed himself field marshal.
20:28I think these are the dynamics of Pakistan politics also.
20:33Maybe the general can answer.
20:37The general who has appointed himself or elevated,
20:40the government had rubber-stamped as they were asked to,
20:44maybe to take him beyond reproach,
20:52so that if there are changes in Pakistan
20:55and an incarcerated leader comes out,
21:00so what will happen?
21:02So we don't know.
21:04These are their internal issues.
21:06But he has not done anything except to make an extremely hateful, divisive speech.
21:16He's the first army general who has used such language.
21:21And what has he achieved for Pakistan,
21:25even in this military conflict?
21:27Yes, we lost precious lives in the terror attack.
21:31Subsequently, there has been damage.
21:37But Pakistan, if they think
21:39that they can come out looking good,
21:45no, they are pockmarked.
21:49Finally, sir,
21:50for somebody who's been a part of the anti-apartheid movement,
21:54you're going to South Africa.
21:56South Africa today has been fighting a different battle altogether,
21:59but a very important one at that.
22:01And that has to do with Gaza and Palestine,
22:04taking America, Israel to the international court, criminal court.
22:09It's a very important statement.
22:12And the situation in Gaza is quite, quite difficult.
22:18Yours, how are you looking?
22:19What's your reading on what's to become of Palestine?
22:24What's to become of this movement
22:26that only a few countries have taken on?
22:29And now we're still looking at the Western countries
22:31like UK, France, Canada,
22:33coming out openly,
22:35disassociating themselves from Israel,
22:38cutting off trade ties with Israel.
22:41That's an important development.
22:43What has happened in Gaza
22:44is a crime against humanity.
22:48I have no hesitation to say that.
22:51We in India,
22:54all political parties,
22:57spoke in sympathy
23:00with Israel
23:02after that October 7th attack.
23:05We condemn Hamas.
23:08But does that mean
23:09collective retribution and punishment
23:11against innocent men, women and children?
23:15So that is what has outraged.
23:18Now, one expected
23:23a country like America,
23:28which speaks for human rights,
23:32which has that statue of liberty,
23:36to intervene.
23:37Unfortunately, that has not happened.
23:39But at the same time,
23:42the conscience of nations
23:45has not died.
23:47And as it is demonstrated
23:50in the mass rallies,
23:52which have been happening
23:54across Europe,
23:55across Africa,
23:56across Asia,
23:57and our position has been very clear.
24:01We and India have to keep on reminding ourselves
24:03and our people
24:04that when the first declaration
24:07was made to divide
24:09the land of Palestine,
24:11India was not a free nation.
24:15But the world leader
24:16who spoke was Mahatma Gandhi.
24:19India took a very clear position
24:21when Israel was founded.
24:25Also so that
24:26for a secure state of Palestine,
24:30sovereign state,
24:32with East Jerusalem
24:33as its capital.
24:35That has been a position
24:37which the world accepted.
24:39That is the position
24:40which the United Nations has.
24:43Congress Party recently
24:44in its Ahmedabad session,
24:46the Working Committee statement
24:49had very clear resolution,
24:50clearly reformed that position.
24:52India also
24:53is bound by the position
24:55which we have taken
24:57at the United Nations.
25:00the United Nations today
25:05and the other bodies
25:07have been enfeebled.
25:11Because what I said earlier
25:14that the Anglo-Saxon world
25:17created the post-World War II institutions
25:21and the multilateral order
25:23which was always never fully inclusive
25:26or representative
25:27because you have
25:28a UN Security Council
25:29which excludes
25:31the entire continent
25:32of Africa,
25:33the largest democracy
25:34on the planet
25:35that is the Republic of India
25:36which excludes
25:37the unified Germany
25:38or Japan
25:39or Latin America
25:40a country like Brazil.
25:42So you can't say
25:42that it is representative
25:43of the contemporary
25:44world realities.
25:46But still at least
25:47there was a multilateral order.
25:49On a rotational basis
25:50temporary two-year seats
25:51were there
25:51which is not adequate
25:53or enough.
25:54But now
25:55time perhaps has come
25:57for leaders of the world
26:00to stand up
26:01and save
26:03multilateralism.
26:06A weakened
26:08United Nations
26:10divided security council
26:12cannot restore order
26:14or protect people
26:15from being butchered
26:17or massacred.
26:19On that note
26:20Anand Sharma
26:21thank you so much
26:22for joining us
26:23here on the network.
Recommended
19:09
|
Up next