Elizabeth Warren Literally Reads Off Rule Word-By-Word To Trump IRS Commissioner Nominee

Forbes Breaking News

At today's Senate Finance Committee hearing, Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) questioned William Long, President Trump's nominee for Commissioner of the IRS.

Transcript

00:00Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So the IRS collects nearly all federal revenue and

00:05that means that behind every road we build, every Social Security check that

00:10we pay, is the IRS. Making sure that everyone pays what the law says they

00:16owe. No politics. But Donald Trump has a different idea. He wants to use the IRS

00:23to punish his enemies. On May 2nd, Trump said, quote, we are going to be taking

00:29away Harvard's tax-exempt status. Harvard wouldn't cave in to other demands Trump

00:36made, so Trump said he would hurt them using the IRS. Now, this is about more

00:42than Harvard. It is a threat to anyone who might displease the president, including

00:48the people or organizations that can afford to have expensive legal battle if

00:54Trump sets the IRS on them. So, Mr. Long, when you and I met, I

00:59asked you whether it was illegal for the president to tell the IRS to revoke a

01:07taxpayer's nonprofit status. And you said in our meeting that you weren't sure, but

01:13you would take a look and consult with lawyers. I sent you this statute. You've

01:18had three weeks to talk to the lawyers about it. So let's jump in. Mr. Long, is it

01:23illegal for the president to direct the IRS to revoke a taxpayer's nonprofit status?

01:30In the first place, he wouldn't do that. He's not going to come to me and say that.

01:37That's not my question, Mr. Long. Please don't start down this way. Are we on section 7212 or 7217?

01:42I'm at 26 U.S.C. 7217. Do I need to read it to you? Prohibits any member of the

01:49executive branch to request the IRS to conduct or terminate an audit on a

01:55taxpayer. All right, so is it illegal? I'm going to follow the law and if that's the

01:59law, yes. Okay, but I want you, that is the law. Yeah. So I just want to be clear. Is it

02:04illegal for the president of the United States to instruct the IRS to remove the

02:12taxpayer's nonprofit status? Prohibits any member of the executive branch to

02:17request the IRS to conduct or terminate an audit of the taxpayer. Is that a yes?

02:24I'd have to go to the lawyers at the IRS to tell me. No, come on. You just read it.

02:29I know, but I don't see the instance that you're speaking about in there. Correct me

02:34if I'm wrong, but I don't see. Look, it says it shall be unlawful for any applicable person,

02:43which in this case includes the president, to request directly or indirectly any

02:50officer or employee of the Internal Revenue Service to conduct or terminate

02:57an audit or other investigation of any particular taxpayer. Is it illegal for the

03:05president to instruct the IRS to remove nonprofit status from a taxpayer? I'm not

03:15going to have the answer that you need, and I apologize, but it, like I said- Why are you

03:19not having the answer? You've had three weeks to consult with lawyers. The statute is

03:24about as clear as plain English- Well, if I say I'm going to follow the law, why would you need to ask me the question?

03:29Well, because I want to make sure that you understand what the law says. If you think

03:36follow the law means you just get to make it up on the spot, then bud, you don't get

03:41to be the IRS commissioner. The point here is to follow the law as it is written, and I'm

03:48asking what I think is a pretty simple question. Can the president of the United States legally

03:54tell the IRS to change someone's nonprofit status? I'm not able to answer-

04:01You can't read these words and tell what those words say? I can read the statute, and I did-

04:07All right, then tell me what they mean. What does it mean to say that a person, an applicable person here,

04:15that's the president, right? Yes. All right. Cannot directly or indirectly, right? Tell any officer

04:28or employee, that would be you, of the Internal Revenue Service to conduct or terminate an audit

04:37or other investigation of any particular taxpayer. What part do you not understand here?

04:44It seems to be a non-profit. I don't see exactly what it refers to.

04:56Okay, any taxpayer to start an investigation of any taxpayer-

05:00If it's illegal, I'm not going to allow it to happen in my IRS. Is it illegal? That's the question.

05:05Me and you will be friends then. I want to be your friend anyway, but we will be on the same page.

05:10I'm going to follow the law, and if that's point blank to the law-

05:13What do you understand the law to be saying about the president telling the IRS

05:19in his dealings with any particular taxpayer? What do you understand this law to be saying?

05:26I think it sounds like it's saying what you're saying, but I don't- I've got a little bit of

05:30the section here, and I looked at it. I talked to an attorney that used to be at the IRS and now

05:35going to maybe be back at the IRS, and I'm sorry if I don't have the answer.

05:39What? You mean the lawyers told you they couldn't understand this?

05:42The what? The lawyers told you they couldn't understand this?

05:46I didn't say that. Well then tell me, what part do you not understand?

05:49It says no person, and you said that's the president, that includes the president,

05:56cannot instruct any officer, that would be you, of the IRS to conduct or to terminate an audit or

06:05other investigation for any particular taxpayer. I don't intend to let anybody direct me to start

06:13an audit for political reasons or any other type of reason.

06:16Does that include the president of the United States?

06:18That's anyone.

06:20Can you say yes, that the president of the United States cannot tell the IRS what to do?

06:25I can tell them they're not going to tell me what to do. I can't speak for other,

06:28if there's other agents at the IRS that you're talking about, but I'm telling you what,

06:32I don't want to have happen in my IRS.

06:33You know, Mr. Wong, you'd have a lot more credibility if you just say yes. It's clear

06:39that the statute makes it illegal for the president to direct the IRS vis-a-vis any particular taxpayer,

06:47and the fact that you want to sit there and dance around about this tells me that you shouldn't be

06:52within a thousand miles of the directorship of the IRS.

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