- 5/20/2025
In a gripping and candid discussion, Judge Andrew Napolitano hosts former British diplomat Alastair Crooke to unpack the deepening crisis in Israel 🇮🇱🔥. As tensions rise and international scrutiny grows, Crooke calls it plainly: a moral meltdown. 🕊️💔 The conversation explores the ethical, political, and strategic consequences of Israel’s actions — and what it means for the region and the world 🌍. Don’t miss this explosive exchange on truth, accountability, and the future of global diplomacy 🎙️⚖️.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Transcribed by —
00:30Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom.
00:35Today is Monday, May 19th, 2025.
00:39Alistair Crook will be here with us in just a moment on the moral depravity in Israel.
00:46But first this.
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02:16Alistair, good day to you, my friend. Welcome to the show.
02:19Thank you for accommodating our schedule.
02:23Will Prime Minister Netanyahu eventually bow to U.S. pressure
02:27to agree to a substantial, verifiable, non- or invoilable ceasefire?
02:36I think, I doubt it.
02:38I don't think there's any intention of that.
02:41We've seen what is clearly happening.
02:45We called it in a paper that we wrote on the Conflict Forum sub-stack,
02:50the moral meltdown in Israel.
02:53And I just want to underline, because people may not really sort of understand this
02:58because they're not following it so closely.
03:00This is a real pivot point that is taking place,
03:04not just in Israel, but for the West as a whole.
03:07And what it is, is essentially, I mean, let's not go get tangled up in the details,
03:14but essentially, Israel is completely divided.
03:19On the one hand, you have, if you like, those who see themselves as European Jews
03:27that have come from Europe and are Europeanized.
03:30And they, on the other hand, you have the messianic people of Ben-Gavir
03:37and the Prime Minister and the right, who are looking to Amalek,
03:43to, if you like, removing the Palestinians from Gaza altogether,
03:48either killing them by bombing them or either sending them somewhere else.
03:54Libya has been mentioned, but I don't know if that's going to work at all.
03:58But this is a moral divide now.
04:02And long ago, someone warned the West very clearly.
04:07They said what will happen is, in due course, under pressure,
04:12the West would turn on its own moral values
04:15and then start consuming itself like an ossoboros.
04:20And this is what's happening in Israel.
04:23It is now becoming violent.
04:25The police are attacking the demonstrators
04:30who are demonstrating for the release of hostages.
04:33So half of Israel is doing that.
04:36And you find editorials, you find other pieces in the Hebrew press,
04:42in the English-language press, like Harad's editorial,
04:46that say, we can't go on with this.
04:49Just killing Palestinians, bombing tents, seeing children burnt alive.
04:57We can't do this.
04:59And what's happened?
05:01I mean, we are supposed to have,
05:03you remember that Hamas released the American dual citizen,
05:10Eden Alexander, the other day.
05:12And it was understood from the American mediators,
05:17Witkoff and his colleagues,
05:19that that would result in food and resources coming into Gaza.
05:25They're not coming into Gaza.
05:28They are still in a line outside of Gaza.
05:32And there are people, as the human rights,
05:35UN human rights representative says,
05:37there are children starving to death.
05:40And Netanyahu had to admit this just the other day.
05:44And he said, listen, look,
05:46I have senators coming to me, friendly,
05:48people who have never been more friendly to Israel.
05:51And they're saying, look, we will give you what you want.
05:54You want weapons.
05:55We will give you protection in the Security Council.
05:58But listen, we just cannot endure seeing children starve to death.
06:04You've got to do something about it.
06:06Well, that still hasn't happened.
06:07And where's Witkoff, who played a very important part to begin with?
06:12He went to Netanyahu on Shabbat.
06:15And he said, listen, you had a deal.
06:17Stick with it.
06:18Do it.
06:19There's no sign of that today.
06:22And so we have to wait till the 25th,
06:24when Netanyahu is saying that.
06:26And Netanyahu hopes to get through this period with a short ceasefire,
06:31agreed with Hamas,
06:32and then some introduction of limited resources,
06:36food and water going in.
06:40And the last few days, every day,
06:44it's been 70, 90, 100, 120 Palestinians killed at night
06:49in the bombing raids of this new incursion.
06:53But I want to move to the second fracture,
06:57which is opening out,
06:58which is just as important,
07:00because it's in the United States and in Europe.
07:03In the United States, as you know,
07:06about 80% of Jews living in the United States are Reform Jews.
07:12And many of them are finding the same moral dilemma
07:17that I've just described in Israel.
07:20They don't like,
07:22and when those senators spoke to Netanyahu in that way and said,
07:25listen, we just can't go on like this.
07:28We can't see children burnt alive in tents.
07:31It's not acceptable.
07:33It's not acceptable in the US,
07:34and it's not acceptable to half of the Israeli population.
07:39This is the pivot,
07:40the crucial point where,
07:43if you like,
07:43the West turns on its own moral values
07:45and starts to,
07:47if you like,
07:48destroy itself in this process.
07:51Same in Europe.
07:52There's videos going around about Maloney
07:55being attacked strongly about Gaza
07:58and others, too, across Europe.
08:01This is the moral dilemma that is coming.
08:03And we see it in other ways.
08:06And this is facing Trump now very much,
08:09which what to do.
08:10And we hear very clearly,
08:12I'm told,
08:13that now there is this moral divide
08:16taking place within his team.
08:18On the one hand,
08:19Whitcoff and Vance on one side,
08:23but Rubio totally at odds with Whitcoff
08:26and trying to remove him from the process.
08:30Perhaps that's why Whitcoff is not there.
08:32Why isn't there an American official down there at Gaza
08:36and saying,
08:37look,
08:37just open those gates.
08:39Open them.
08:40Let them load in.
08:42Of course it would happen,
08:43but there's none.
08:44So we have to draw our conclusions from that,
08:48what that means.
08:49And then there's a third fracture.
08:52And this is very important fracture, too,
08:55I think,
08:55which is with Iran.
08:58Because you've probably seen on ABC
09:02in the last day,
09:04Whitcoff has said,
09:05the absolute red line for Trump
09:08is no enrichment,
09:10not ever,
09:11in Iran.
09:12That is the red line.
09:14And that's what we're seeking.
09:15And I put on that,
09:19I wrote that actually what has happened
09:22is almost the entire Senate Republicans
09:26have written a letter to Trump
09:28saying one thing,
09:31that they will not accept an agreement
09:33which allows the infrastructure
09:37of enrichment to stay in Iran.
09:40and 177 of the House
09:43have been even more explicit,
09:45I think,
09:46in one of the,
09:48in the parallel letters
09:49that has gone to Trump,
09:50which is saying exactly
09:53no enrichment at all.
09:56Even though they know,
09:57they must know,
09:59Iran will never accept that.
10:00You recall I was in Iran
10:01about a week or 10 days ago
10:04and talked to many people
10:06that they won't accept that.
10:08And then I contrasted,
10:10what do you see
10:11in the Maryland polling
10:13that has just come out?
10:14It shows it's 70% of Americans
10:18as a whole
10:19want to deal with Iran.
10:21And that is true
10:22both of the majority
10:24in the Republican
10:25and the Democrats.
10:27And only something,
10:28I don't have the figures
10:29in front of me,
10:30but only something like
10:3125% of Republicans
10:33are in favor of military action.
10:35So you have this divide too.
10:39The popular sentiment,
10:40of course,
10:41which will probably be ignored,
10:43but the popular sentiment,
10:44wants a deal,
10:45doesn't want a war with Iran.
10:47I don't think the populists,
10:49I don't think the side of Vance
10:51and the others,
10:52wants a war with Iran.
10:55And yet,
10:56all of the Senate Republicans
10:58have signed on to this letter
11:00and 177 of the Republicans
11:03in the House
11:04have similarly signed on,
11:06saying no enrichment.
11:08Now,
11:08I don't think
11:09that this means
11:10we're going to have
11:11a huge war with Iran,
11:12but that's a different issue.
11:14I can talk about that
11:15some other time
11:16if you like.
11:17But I don't think
11:18that is probably going to happen.
11:20It certainly would give
11:24Donald Trump comfort
11:26if he were to attack Iran,
11:29knowing that half the Senate,
11:30at least half,
11:32and a little more
11:33than half the House
11:34are already behind him.
11:37I mean,
11:37he's essentially,
11:38and Whitcoff seems to be
11:39all over the place on this.
11:40At one point,
11:41he said,
11:42well,
11:42of course,
11:42we're going to allow
11:43enrichment for domestic purposes.
11:45And then he said,
11:46well,
11:46they're going to have
11:47to get their enriched uranium
11:48from some foreign source.
11:50Sure.
11:50Which the U.S. will cut off.
11:52Now,
11:53making a demand on Iran,
11:55knowing that they cannot keep it,
11:57what kind of a negotiation is that,
11:59unless it's a trigger for war?
12:02Precisely.
12:03But my point,
12:04and which I discussed at length
12:06in Iran,
12:07is I do not believe
12:09that America can attack Iran,
12:12not in the way
12:13in which people think it.
12:15It will not be an easy war.
12:17It will be the reverse.
12:20They have air defenses.
12:22They look,
12:23you know,
12:24the lesson from the Houthis
12:25is pretty clear.
12:26We've seen that.
12:27The lesson from the Pakistanis,
12:30how they shot down
12:31all the French latest jets,
12:34the Raphael,
12:34with the Chinese missile.
12:37These,
12:38I mean,
12:38I do not think,
12:40you know,
12:40it's one thing to say,
12:42look,
12:42we're going to turn Iran
12:44into a smoldering ruin.
12:46There will be nothing left.
12:47That's good rhetoric,
12:49but when it comes to it
12:51and Trump has to sign on
12:52for this attack
12:54and people say to him,
12:56but look,
12:57you know,
12:57what are we going to do?
12:59We don't have the ability
13:00actually to attack
13:01these deeply buried
13:03nuclear sites.
13:05They're not there.
13:06We can do what we did,
13:07if you like,
13:08we can do what we did
13:09in Yemen.
13:11We can,
13:11you know,
13:12do it,
13:13if you like,
13:14a demonstrative,
13:15a performative attack
13:18with bombs,
13:19an empty IRGC building
13:23or something like that,
13:24and then agree with Iran
13:27the suitable response
13:28and then declare victory
13:30and say Iran backed off
13:31and they conceded.
13:34that's possible.
13:36But an all-out attack,
13:39I think,
13:40I don't think actually
13:42the United States
13:43is in a position
13:44to do it
13:45and certainly
13:46if it can't do it
13:47with Yemen,
13:48it's certainly not
13:49in a position
13:50to do it with Iran.
13:51Is this filtering
13:52through to Trump?
13:54Well,
13:54maybe it will do
13:55in near future
13:57because the Iranians
13:58will not agree
13:59to the terms
14:00he set out,
14:01just as we're seeing
14:03at the moment
14:03that Putin is not agreeing
14:05and said he doesn't want
14:07actually Witkoff
14:08to come with a 22-point proposal
14:11for a ceasefire
14:11because he's not agreeing
14:13to a ceasefire.
14:14And we know why
14:15he's not agreeing
14:16to a ceasefire
14:16because Kellogg
14:18and the team around him
14:20want a ceasefire
14:22because that doesn't suggest
14:25an American defeat.
14:27Right, right.
14:28Let's go back
14:30to Israel.
14:31Last week,
14:32the press here
14:34in the U.S.
14:35was replete
14:37with stories
14:38about the rift
14:38between Netanyahu
14:40and Trump.
14:41Trump was sick
14:41and tired of him.
14:42Netanyahu
14:43was manipulating Trump.
14:44Trump can't stand
14:45to be manipulated.
14:48Did Trump embarrass
14:50Netanyahu
14:51with his embrace
14:53of Arab
14:55authoritarians
14:56last week
14:57in the Middle East?
14:59and do you believe
15:00what Trump said
15:01last night
15:02that there is
15:03no rift
15:04between him
15:05and Netanyahu?
15:07Well, the first thing,
15:09you know,
15:09I don't think anyone
15:11has taken very much
15:12that visit
15:13to the Gulf
15:14that seriously.
15:15It was all bling,
15:17you know,
15:17not a new yacht
15:19but a new jet
15:20to Trump.
15:21and I'm not sure
15:24even if the money
15:25will be forthcoming.
15:27The UAE,
15:29the United Arab Emirates,
15:31has promised
15:311.4 trillion
15:32but its GDP
15:34is half a trillion.
15:36Where's it going
15:37to get 1.4 from?
15:39Exactly.
15:39Even if you spread it
15:40over 30 years,
15:41that would be
15:42something like
15:4235, 40%
15:44of their entire budget.
15:46Even if you rated
15:47their entire
15:48sovereign wealth fund,
15:49that is only
15:501.7 trillion.
15:51So where is this
15:52coming from,
15:53this money?
15:54So, you know,
15:55and Saudi Arabia
15:56is in even
15:56dire straits,
15:58worse straits
15:59because, you know,
16:00it can't afford
16:01to finish off
16:02Noam,
16:02this great project
16:03of a huge,
16:04you know,
16:05kilometre hotel.
16:06It's only about
16:07200 metres complete
16:09so far.
16:10So, I mean,
16:11you know,
16:12it's a little bit,
16:13it's reality TV
16:15but it won't
16:16make a difference.
16:17It won't even
16:18make a difference
16:19to Trump's
16:20ultimate aim
16:21which is to
16:22rebalance his economy
16:23because by
16:24rebalancing his economy
16:26when he says
16:27he wants
16:28dollar hegemony
16:29to continue
16:30around the world
16:31implies he wants
16:33a flow
16:33or continuing flow
16:35as they had
16:36in 2005.
16:39Volcker,
16:39who was president
16:40of the Federal Reserve,
16:41said,
16:42you know,
16:42we survive
16:43on the incoming
16:44$2 billion
16:47of dollars
16:47coming in
16:48every day
16:49to our account.
16:52But where
16:52do you think
16:53the money is
16:54from the
16:54Gulf Street?
16:55It's already
16:56in America.
16:57It's not going
16:57to be new money
16:58coming into America.
17:00It's in an account
17:01in New York.
17:02And okay,
17:03it's going
17:03to be transferred
17:04from one account
17:04to another account
17:05possibly
17:06in the coming time.
17:07Do you think
17:10Trump understands
17:11what you said
17:13as stated
17:14differently?
17:14Is he deluding
17:15the American public
17:16or is he deluding
17:17himself?
17:19I don't think
17:20he fully.
17:21I think there are
17:22people in his team
17:23like Bassett
17:24and I think
17:25Stephen Miran
17:26and I think
17:27Vogt
17:28who are very bright
17:31and are thinking
17:32about it.
17:32but even they
17:34are questioning
17:35the approach
17:36because I think
17:37threatening tariffs
17:39in order to restart
17:41what one of them
17:42described it
17:44is petrodollar
17:452.0.
17:47I mean,
17:47it's just not
17:48going to happen.
17:49It's not going
17:50to occur.
17:52So I think
17:52that is,
17:53I do think
17:54that,
17:56I mean,
17:56the United States
17:57has a huge
17:59strategic,
18:00if you like,
18:01structural imbalance.
18:04It has to address
18:05the debt issue.
18:07It has to address
18:08the budget issue.
18:09Whether that's
18:10possible or not,
18:11I really don't know.
18:13But I don't think,
18:14you know,
18:14a few days of bling
18:16in the Gulf states
18:17will have changed
18:18that one shot.
18:20As to your second question,
18:22should I just do that?
18:23The second question
18:24you asked.
18:25Do I believe
18:26that there's a real rift?
18:29Well,
18:30I do and I don't.
18:31I don't think
18:33he probably likes
18:35Netanyahu very much.
18:37But when I look
18:38at things,
18:39what happened
18:40in those days
18:41in the Gulf?
18:44Did you hear
18:44Gaza mentioned?
18:46Did you hear
18:47anything about
18:48a ceasefire
18:49mentioned?
18:50Did you hear
18:51any discussion
18:52of it?
18:53You heard a lot
18:53about Syria
18:54and the possibility
18:55of it joining
18:56the Abraham Accords,
18:57but nothing
18:58about Gaza?
19:00Nothing at all.
19:01And so I wonder
19:02if some of this
19:03is reality TV.
19:05You know what we did hear,
19:07what we did hear
19:08a lot about,
19:09and I think
19:11from your writings
19:12over the weekend,
19:14you're going to say
19:15Netanyahu
19:15was furious.
19:16We heard about
19:17this young man
19:18from New Jersey,
19:20Eden Alexander,
19:22the dual American
19:24Israeli citizen
19:25in the IDF
19:26captured on
19:27October 4th,
19:28freed by
19:29America's direct
19:30negotiation
19:31with Hamas.
19:32Wasn't Netanyahu
19:33furious over that?
19:35And didn't he try
19:35and restrain
19:36the kid
19:37from going
19:38on international
19:40media?
19:41Yeah,
19:41because the kid,
19:42as you called him,
19:44said he didn't
19:45want to meet
19:45Netanyahu.
19:46He wanted nothing
19:47to do with him.
19:47He refused to see him
19:49or talk to him
19:50by telephone even.
19:51And so Netanyahu,
19:52of course,
19:53was snubbed
19:54and angry by that.
19:55But what about
19:57the sort of
19:57wider picture?
19:58Well,
19:59I just said to you
20:00what Netanyahu
20:01in his speech said.
20:02Look,
20:03I've got all
20:03of these people
20:04from the U.S.
20:05Senate coming over
20:06and saying,
20:07you know,
20:07please,
20:08we will
20:09give you weapons.
20:11We will
20:11give you money.
20:12We will
20:13support you
20:14in the U.N.
20:15Security Council.
20:15But for God's sake,
20:16we don't want to see
20:17in front of our faces
20:19children starving
20:20to death.
20:21We can't cope
20:22with that.
20:23So the rift
20:24is in America
20:25and we're seeing
20:26it play out
20:27in his team.
20:28That's what I'm saying.
20:30You know,
20:30I think there is
20:31a real rift.
20:32I mean,
20:32I'm not in America,
20:34but you'd know better.
20:35But I think
20:35there's a real rift
20:37between Marco Rubio
20:39and Witkoff.
20:41And that's reflected
20:42in what's happening
20:42in Russia
20:43and it's reflected
20:44in Putin's reluctance
20:48and indeed
20:48almost refusal
20:49to see Witkoff
20:51with his list
20:52of conditions
20:53for a ceasefire
20:54and saying no.
20:55I mean,
20:56very tough language
20:57coming out of Russia
20:58and we'll hear
20:59very tough language
21:00coming out of Iran.
21:01This is a pivot point
21:03for both
21:04for Trump,
21:05but for us,
21:07Europeans
21:07and America
21:08because
21:09what's happened
21:11in Gaza
21:11is completely,
21:13as I said
21:14to begin with,
21:16we're turning
21:17on our own
21:18moral values.
21:19We're consuming
21:20ourselves
21:21by destroying
21:22our own
21:23moral values
21:24in the interest
21:26of keeping
21:26our hegemony.
21:28I wish Donald Trump
21:29would come
21:30to the same conclusion
21:32because he could
21:32stop it
21:33with a phone call.
21:34is it fair
21:35to say
21:35that the solitary
21:36obstacle
21:38to the release
21:40of the hostages
21:41and the solitary
21:42obstacle
21:43to the cessation
21:46of the murder
21:47of innocent Gazans
21:48is Benjamin Netanyahu?
21:52No.
21:53I think it is
21:53because that makes
21:55it too simple.
21:57It takes the context
21:58away
21:59and makes it
21:59all about one man.
22:01And I think
22:01this is a mistake.
22:03Yes,
22:03he's very much
22:04the center of this.
22:06He is the organizer
22:07of this.
22:09And by the way,
22:09he has every intention
22:10of staying in office
22:11until 2026.
22:14But it's not that.
22:16It is a
22:17segment
22:19of Israel
22:20believes
22:21and you have to read
22:22that piece
22:23that you quoted
22:24in Moral Meltdown
22:26that was written
22:27and put
22:28on
22:29Substack,
22:31the Conflict Forum
22:32Substack,
22:33which is from
22:34the Israeli
22:35Hebrew press
22:36and it says
22:37very clearly,
22:39I mean,
22:39we do not accept
22:41that it is right
22:42for Israel
22:43to be engaged
22:45in burning
22:46out tents
22:47and seeing
22:48children burnt
22:49alive in the tents.
22:50We can't
22:51accept this.
22:52And this is
22:53the moral
22:54dilemma.
22:55And so
22:56half of Israel
22:57is with it.
22:58But then you can
22:59read other people
23:00on the same piece
23:01saying,
23:03I agree with it,
23:04Tali,
23:04we need to go
23:05and kill them all.
23:06I have no sympathy
23:07for the Palestinians.
23:09We should kill them.
23:10Women,
23:11children,
23:12everyone.
23:13And I have
23:14absolutely no feeling
23:15for them.
23:16So this is,
23:17you know,
23:18this is,
23:18you know,
23:19where it is going.
23:20And what do we hear
23:22from Europe
23:22about what is occurring
23:24in Gaza?
23:26Nothing.
23:26Nothing.
23:27Nothing at all.
23:28Nothing.
23:29Alstair,
23:30thank you very much.
23:31I must run.
23:32I appreciate
23:32everything you did
23:33to be on with us today
23:35more than you know.
23:36You're on fire today.
23:37God bless you.
23:39Very much appreciated,
23:40my dear friend.
23:41All the best.
23:42Safe travels
23:42where you're going
23:43this week
23:44and we'll see you
23:44next week.
23:45Thank you very much.
23:46Of course.
23:46Good luck to you.
23:48Coming up later today
23:49at 10 this morning,
23:51Ray McGovern
23:51at 1130.
23:52This Morning,
23:53Larry Johnson
23:54and at 4 o'clock
23:55this afternoon,
23:56Professor Jeffrey Sachs,
23:58Judge Napolitano
23:59for Judging Freedom.
24:22o's
24:25o'clock
24:26or
24:27o'clock
24:27or
24:29you
24:30o'clock
24:30and
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21:34